The CGD Podcast: "The Upside of Accepting Refugees"

Host: Rajesh Merchandani (Center for Global Development)
Guest: Lord Mark Malloch-Brown (Humanitarian, Diplomat, former UN Deputy Secretary General)
Date: June 16, 2015

Episode Overview

This episode explores the global refugee crisis through the lens of development, policy, and lived history. Lord Mark Malloch-Brown, a seasoned diplomat and humanitarian, argues against fear-based narratives around accepting refugees, highlighting the long-term economic and social benefits they bring to host countries. The discussion delves into historical precedents, the blurring line between refugees and economic migrants, the need for smarter aid mechanisms, and the evolving landscape of international development goals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Scale and Distribution of the Refugee Crisis

• Statistic and Perception:

  • Over 13 million registered refugees worldwide by mid-2014 (00:05).
  • The scale is massive in local contexts but remains a fraction of 1% globally (01:07).
  • "A small global problem, but a big local problem, and we need to find ways of dealing with it which reflects that contradiction." — Mark Malloch-Brown (01:23)

• Geographical Concentration:

  • Refugee crises are heavily concentrated in specific regions.
  • Syria is currently the biggest producer, with Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Somalia also notable (01:38, 06:10).

Refugees vs. Economic Migrants: The Need for Nuance

• Distinguishing Differences:

  • The crisis in the Mediterranean is often a mixture — genuine refugees (fleeing persecution) alongside economic migrants (seeking better opportunities) (02:32).
  • "We've got to find ways of keeping these two pools apart. Both need to be treated decently and fairly, but they are very different categories." — Mark Malloch-Brown (03:24)

• Societal Concerns:

  • Responding to fears about jobs and resources, Malloch-Brown stresses the need to separate debates around migrants and refugees (02:32).

Lessons from History: The Positive Impact of Refugees

• Historical Precedents:

  • Earlier crises (Vietnamese, Cambodian, Ugandan Asians in the 1970s) were met with public anxiety — fears later proven unfounded (03:38).
  • "With the glorious hindsight of elapsed decades...you look back over your shoulder and you see that the Indochinese refugees have been a huge shot in the arm to the US economy, French economy, to the Australian and Canadian economies." — Mark Malloch-Brown (04:21)

• Societal Contributions:

  • Refugees become drivers of entrepreneurialism, retail, and public life in host nations.
  • "These are remarkable people...when forced to flee, they actually usually fall on their feet and are a huge economic plus to their receiving country and not the burden people anticipate." (05:40)

Why Do Refugees Flee? The Role of Conflict and the Pull of Home

• Conflict as a Catalyst:

  • Over half of the world’s refugees are from Syria, Afghanistan, and Somalia — countries plagued by conflict (06:10).
  • Refugees are often “reluctant departees”—most would return if peace were restored (07:40).

• Development & Diplomacy:

  • Solving a small number of key conflicts would drastically reduce the global refugee crisis (06:30).
  • Example: Indochina, where former refugees have returned and contributed to their home countries (07:55).

International Response & Policy Challenges

• Political Obstacles:

  • The UN Security Council is hindered by great power rivalries, notably in Syria (08:40).
  • "You’ve just had big power egos getting in the way of a solution, getting also in the way of effective humanitarian intervention, even when there isn’t yet a political solution." (10:17)

• Humanitarian Action Beyond the Security Council:

  • Malloch-Brown advocates for a return to humanitarian law and action independent of political deadlock (10:56).
  • "It’s incredibly important that we try to restore that humanitarian law endorsement space, that we don't put these operations at the mercy of agreement in a now renewed, gridlocked Security Council." (11:10)

Rethinking Aid: From Camps to Cash and Urbanization

• Changing Refugee Needs:

  • The old model of rural refugee camps is outdated; most refugees now reside informally in urban settings (11:32).
  • "I was very skeptical about the prudence of putting people in the semi-incarcerated conditions of refugee camps, cutting them off from work..." (11:56-12:18)

• Innovative Solutions:

  • New aid models, like direct cash transfers, are more efficient and forward-looking (12:24).
  • CGD is piloting cash-based approaches for refugees in urban economies (13:38).

The Evolution of Development Goals: From MDGs to SDGs

• Complexity Increases:

  • The shift from eight MDGs to 17 SDGs (with 169 targets) reflects the growing complexity of global poverty and inequality (14:24).
  • Development is no longer just about basic provision but also about education quality, secondary and tertiary access, and tackling broader inequalities (14:45-15:18).

• Local vs. Global Priorities:

  • "It really framed the development conversation... We're now moving to á la carte... the cost will be a real dilution of the global conversation about priorities. The gain will be... a stronger sense of local ownership." (16:23)

• Private Sector Engagement:

  • The private sector must become a third pillar of development, especially as infrastructure and job creation become central (18:37).

Outlook: Optimism and Challenges Ahead

• Progress So Far:

  • Significant success in halving absolute poverty under the MDGs (20:09).
  • "Many people...still don’t completely accept...the fact that the proportion of those living in absolute poverty has more than halved..." (20:15)

• The Next Hurdles:

  • Remaining poverty is concentrated in fragile states—efforts will take more resources, focus, and collaboration (20:38-21:24).
  • Sustaining gains requires massive new investments in infrastructure and inclusive growth (21:34).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “Small Global, Big Local” Paradox:

  "When you sort of scope it or compare it to global population as a whole, it’s a fraction of 1%. And I think that’s really the important thing, to hold onto that..."
  — Mark Malloch-Brown (01:07)

• On Misguided Fears of Refugees:

  "With the glorious hindsight of elapsed decades...the Indochinese refugees have been a huge shot in the arm to the US economy, French economy, to the Australian and Canadian economies..."
  — Mark Malloch-Brown (04:21)

• On Political Paralysis:

  "You’ve just had big power egos getting in the way of a solution, getting also in the way of effective humanitarian intervention, even when there isn’t yet a political solution."
  — Mark Malloch-Brown (10:17)

• On the Evolution of Aid:

  "The location and means of helping refugees is dramatically changing... the locus of relief and distribution needs to be [urban]; they're within cash economies, not in camps."
  — Mark Malloch-Brown (12:06)

• On the SDGs’ Scope:

  "We’re now moving to à la carte in that nobody’s development strategy can possibly incorporate with equal priority these 17 goals and 100 plus targets."
  — Mark Malloch-Brown (16:23)

• On the Challenge Ahead:

  "This first phase was the easier bit. Inevitably there’s a low-hanging fruit issue and we’re now working our way up the tree."
  — Mark Malloch-Brown (20:31)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:05] Opening statistics and introduction
• [01:07] The global vs local perspective on refugees
• [02:32] Refugees vs. economic migrants explained
• [03:38] Historical lessons: Vietnamese & Ugandan refugees
• [06:10] Root causes: Conflict and forced migration
• [08:40] Political obstacles to resolving conflicts
• [11:10] Humanitarian action beyond the Security Council
• [11:32] Aid: From camps to urban, cash-based models
• [14:24] The transition from MDGs to SDGs
• [20:09] Progress and future challenges in global development

Final Thought

Lord Malloch-Brown leaves listeners with both hope and realism: Refugees, when given the chance, are more likely a boon than a burden. The world, however, faces harder challenges ahead—requiring policy courage, innovation, and a more inclusive approach, especially via private sector engagement and smarter aid strategies.