Podcast Summary: Why Kids Are Dropping out of School and What Works in Education – with Karthik Muralidharan

The CGD Podcast – Center for Global Development
Host: Rajesh Merchandani
Guest: Dr. Karthik Muralidharan, Associate Professor of Economics, UC San Diego
Date: August 18, 2015

Overview

This episode explores the chronic disconnect between increased spending on education in developing countries and actual improvements in learning outcomes. Dr. Karthik Muralidharan, a leading researcher in the field and key contributor to the RISE Project (Research on Improving Standards of Education), discusses why simply investing in more resources—like buildings, books, or teacher salaries—often fails to deliver better education. The conversation dives into what policies and practices do make a difference, centering on the importance of pedagogy (how children are taught) and governance (accountability and incentives in education systems).

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Increased Spending Isn’t Leading to Better Learning

• Resource-focused spending is insufficient:
  • Funding more books, more teachers, or bigger facilities alone does not yield better learning.
  • “The default of putting more resources into schools, more buildings, more teachers, more resources, does not seem to be translating much into outcomes.”
    (Dr. Karthik Muralidharan, 01:13)
• The missing ingredients:
  • Pedagogy (what teachers actually do in classrooms) and governance (systems for accountability and rewarding performance) are largely overlooked.

Understanding Pedagogy and Governance

• The complexity of education:
  • Learning depends on a mix of household input, school facilities, teaching approaches (pedagogy), and system incentives (governance).
  • Bureaucracies often focus only on what’s easy to measure: enrollment, buildings, materials—not actual learning.
• Lack of focus on learning outcomes:
  • Schools focus on enrollment numbers and infrastructure, but "learning outcomes cannot be measured, so nobody's bothered." (01:25)

When Providing Resources Fails: Textbooks Example ([02:44])

• Case studies:
  • In Tanzania, lack of textbooks is visible, so providing books seems the obvious solution.
  • Multiple randomized trials reveal that simply handing out textbooks often has “exactly zero impact” unless core issues in pedagogy and governance are addressed.
• Notable finding:
  • Only the top 20% of students—those able to already read—benefited from receiving textbooks; the rest saw no effect.
  • “To benefit from the textbook, you need to be able to read. For kids who could not read, the book was not making any difference.”
    (Muralidharan, 04:36)

Universal Laws vs. Local Constraints ([05:13])

• No one-size-fits-all:
  • The podcast argues it’s more effective to focus on what doesn’t work globally than trying to create a universal "theory of education."

Teacher Salaries: Spending Without Impact ([05:28])

• Doubling teacher pay didn't help:
  • In Indonesia, a huge nationwide increase in teacher salaries had “absolutely no impact” on student learning.
  • Linking pay to performance (even with modest bonuses) saw strong results in India.
  • “It’s not the level of the salary that matters, it's the structure. Does your pay depend on what you do?"
    (Muralidharan, 07:35)

Perverse Incentives, Absenteeism, and Teacher Motivation ([08:05])

• No accountability = demotivation:
  • Absentee teachers often had the highest job satisfaction because they were getting paid without attending school.
  • High-performing, motivated teachers felt unrewarded or even discouraged.
  • “[I]f you get your salary without having to show up, you really love your job.”
    (Muralidharan, 08:59)

What Works: Evidence for Effective Interventions ([10:20])

• Successful examples:
  • Supplemental instruction at the child’s actual learning level is highly effective, even when delivered by local, minimally trained volunteers.
  • These interventions are flexible, tailored, and meet children where they are, rather than forcing everyone to keep up with a rigid curriculum.
• Curricula and textbooks are misaligned:
  • Education systems were designed when only a small elite attended school. Curriculum is written by and for the top 5%, yet now reaches a much broader, often first-generation population.

The Real Dropout Reason ([17:39])

• Kids drop out due to lack of learning, not lack of access or economic pressure:
  • “There’s no parent who doesn’t want his kid to get educated... They’re dropping out because they're learning nothing.” (Muralidharan, 17:39)
  • Teachers and administrators often misinterpret dropout causes as external (poverty, labor needs), but research shows persistent non-learning is the real driver.

A Singular, Actionable Policy Prescription ([15:54], [17:39])

• The one primary goal:
  • Focus policy on ensuring “universal functional literacy and numeracy by grade two or three.”
  • Clarity of goals, transparent measurement, and accountability for district officers.
  • “The single biggest win for developing country education in the next 10 years [would be] if you get that functional literacy and numeracy to the point where the kid can pick up the book and read something on his or her own.”
    (Muralidharan, 19:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On resource spending:
  “Simply providing the books by itself is not going to get you the outcomes unless you also reform pedagogy and/or reform governance.”
  (Muralidharan, 05:00)

• On the real impact of performance pay:
  “The average bonuses paid under the performance pay program were just 3% of salary. But that gave you massive impacts over two years and five years, compared to [doubling] teacher pay and [getting] exactly zero impact.”
  (Muralidharan, 07:57)

• On system incentives:
  “You're the sucker if you're working hard because there's nothing in the system that actually rewards you.”
  (Muralidharan, 08:49)

• On the historic role of education systems:
  "The history of many education systems in developing countries has not been about how do I educate the entire population. It's always been about how do I identify who's smart and channel these people into positions of leadership."
  (Muralidharan, 14:05)

• A vivid analogy on learning frustration:
  “In the middle of a session of 100 people, I just switch to talking in a different language... and then you say, 'You've just spent two minutes in the shoes of a kid in an Indian classroom.'”
  (Muralidharan, 18:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:13 – Why spending more isn’t enough, and what’s missing.
• 02:44 – The textbook example: evidence from randomized trials.
• 05:28 – The "what doesn’t work" approach and evidence against resource-only interventions.
• 07:35 – Teacher pay: Indonesia’s failed reform vs. India’s performance pay.
• 08:49 – Absenteeism and counterproductive incentives.
• 10:20 – What actually works: focus on learning, not just inputs.
• 15:54 – Building a model for systems that deliver learning.
• 17:39 – Why kids leave school: not for work, but for lack of progress.
• 19:00 – The core policy goal: literacy and numeracy by grade two or three.

Conclusion

Dr. Muralidharan provides robust evidence and clear recommendations rooted in research: education policy in developing countries must focus on learning outcomes, tailoring pedagogy to students’ needs, and revamping governance to reward effective teaching. The single most important reform is to ensure all children can read and do arithmetic by the end of grade two or three—a goal both ambitious and transformative.

For more information on the RISE Project, visit cgdev.org.