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- [00:00]
Michael Boudreau
This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry at a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change. Today's episode is brought to you by Marber, the legendary antique show in Round Top, Texas. No other show in the world is like Marburger, and there's good news for interior designers. It's now coming to Atlanta from July 16th through the 20th, so don't miss out. Get your tickets today. Go to marburgeratlanta.com to get complimentary tickets to the show. That's M A R B U R g e r atlanta.com and now onto the show. Douglas Friedman is not only one of today's most successful and influential photographers of interiors, he's also a style setter himself. A New York native who moved to la, he is that rare person who left behind success in Hollywood, where he worked with director David Fincher, to travel the world and hone his skills behind the camera. Beyond his photographs of interiors, which have appeared in virtually every major shelter magazine and numerous books, he has also conquered fashion photography and portraiture. He has a huge following on social media with his many fans, following the construction of his glass house in Marfa, Texas, and now the renovation of a house in Belport, Long Island. Douglas has an extensive knowledge of design history, has worked with virtually every top decorator and stylist, and is almost as well known for his wit, charm, and his 70s porn stache as he is for his talent. I'm so pleased that Douglas is here with me today to talk about his career, how the role of the photographer has changed in the new media landscape, some of the lessons he's learned working with top design talents, what design editors are looking for today, and what he sees ahead. Welcome, Douglas.
- [02:08]
Douglas Friedman
Hi, Michael. It's good to be here.
- [02:10]
Michael Boudreau
I'm so glad you're here. So, Douglas, you know we work together. I've known you for years, but doing this research for this episode, I did not know that you had gone to Hollywood and worked with David Fincher, that you worked in the movie business. And it's very unusual for people who achieve that to then decide that that's not their world. So what prompted that? And did you feel in Hollywood that you were getting a visual style or were you interested in developing a visual style before you went to Hollywood? How did that come about? Because I do think you have a distinct visual take on the world.
- [02:39]
Douglas Friedman
Well, can I say that I don't think it was so premeditated. I'd studied anthropology and I minored in film. And I thought I would make documentaries, but I had to pay the rent and pay the bills. And I got a job working at a production company, Propaganda Films, in la. And I kind of, like, tossed around from director to director, from Spike Jonze to Mark Romanek and Anton Fuqua, and wound up working with David Fincher. And that relationship stuck. And I assisted David. I was his director's assistant. So I was doing everything. I was getting the dry cleaning, I was reading scripts. I was helping take care of lots of things. And it was incredible. I got to work on 7 and Fight Club and the Game. And ultimately, after maybe it was three years, I realized that I was never gonna be a filmmaker as good as David Fincher. Cause he really was the best. So I thought, why do this if I'm not gonna be the best? So I quit.
- [03:38]
Michael Boudreau
But Fincher has a very distinct visual style. Is that something that made an impression on you?
- [03:43]
Douglas Friedman
I mean, I think looking back on it, it must have. I mean, he was so. He was so. I guess I would say he was kind. Like he knew what he wanted. I don't ever recall him yelling or kind of raising his voice. I mean, it was inspiring to see him know so much about everything and knowing exactly what he wanted. And maybe I've taken that with me.
- [04:06]
Michael Boudreau
And you didn't just leave the movie business, you left Hollywood. So talk about that a little bit.
- [04:11]
Douglas Friedman
I mean, I didn't know. It must have been like 27, 26. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I kind of sold everything. I sold my car, I sold everything I owned. And I bought one of these round the world plane tickets where as long as you're going in the same direction, you could keep. So I was. I think I had to take it from LA to Singapore, and then Bangkok to Cairo, and then Cairo to Istanbul and Paris, New York. So I kind of had to fill in. In between those flights. I spent a year backpacking. Most of the time spent in India and Nepal and Southeast Asia. And the whole time I was taking photographs, but as a hobby, not as the thought of a future.
- [04:52]
Michael Boudreau
But clearly it did become your future. So when did you first start realizing that taking pictures is something you love to do, but it could also be something of a career?
- [05:02]
Douglas Friedman
Oh, I remember I came back unexpectedly from the trip because I'd gotten a little sick in My stomach.
- [05:08]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, yeah, that could happen.
- [05:10]
Douglas Friedman
So I came back to America and my ex boyfriend, Sean Spellman, who is a brilliant. Still is a brilliant fashion stylist. I said, sean, I need a job. What should I do? And he goes, well, I can get you a job as a photo assistant on this shoot with Gilles Bensimon for the magazine Top Model. I was like, yeah, let's do it. So no one told me I couldn't chew gum. No one told me I should wear all black. I didn't know the drill of showing up on a fashion set. And I was the fourth assistant of. For assistance, you know, shooting Bridget Hall. God, we were shooting Bridget Hall. It was so incredible and it was so exciting. I was like, God, this is so crazy. And I was so horrible at it. But I kind of fell in love with the idea that you could take pictures and make money, you could have a career. So I thought I would kind of give that a shot.
- [05:57]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, so basically it was a fashion world that you were doing, and where.
- [06:02]
Douglas Friedman
It started, that's where it started. Well, I have to say, though, I wanted to give myself a few years to understand the business, everything from the technical side of photography, the creative side, the cultural side, the business side. So I assisted lots of photographers. I assisted fashion photographers, interiors photographers, travel photographers, catalog photographers, still life photographers. I mean, everyone from David Lachapelle and Terry Richardson to Matt Horanik, who was really influential for me and so many others. And I really did love the interiors and the architecture. That's the stuff I was really responding to, but I couldn't get a job doing it.
- [06:43]
Michael Boudreau
One of the things that's always impressed me about you, and I think clearly this is true when you were younger too, is that you will say yes. It seems like you're one of those people who you're up for ideas, you'll try things. And clearly at that beginning, you were trying a lot of different things. But it was, as you were saying, the interiors and architecture that you were responding to most. So how did you push that interest? Did you start working for the interior magazines? Did you work with Michael?
- [07:09]
Douglas Friedman
It was so difficult to get my foot in the door with interiors. And I had friends in the business, but I think because of the way that I looked with the muscle and the tattoo, I was kind of pushed into fashion photography. That's where it seemed all the editors wanted me to be. And it was a very different game back then than it is now. You know, I had to build a portfolio of printed photographs and a big leather Book with the acetate pages. And then I had to figure out how to get that book to editors where I would have to get the physical book in front of, like, Ivan Shaw, Vogue, or in front of Yolanda Edwards. And they would have the patience to kind of look through it and remember the work. And then the timing had to be right, that they needed someone that did what I did. And it was really. It was complicated. But I was so happy when I would get booked for a shoot and I was still assisting, and I was trying to be a photographer, and it was kind of slow going. And I remember I was assisting Fernando Bengocea. And it was a shoot with Wendy Goodman. I think it was Muriel Brandolini's house in the Hamptons. And it was a really fun shoot. And the next week, I was hired as the photographer for a New York magazine shoot, and Wendy Goodman was my editor. For me, it felt so awkward to be perceived as the assistant and the photographer. And for me, it just felt strange. So at that moment, I was like, I'm never gonna assist again. I can't. It lit a fire under me because I still had to pay the rent.
- [08:46]
Michael Boudreau
And I was gonna say, I think at that time, even more so than today, photography was kind of siloed. You did fashion photography, or you did interiors, or you did portraits, and you wanted a portrait of somebody. Often you would hire a different photographer in those days to take the portrait of the homeowner, even for an interior. Then you would not have the same photographer shoot the rooms or whatever. And certainly in the fashion magazines, they would have photographers that they drew on for portraits that they wouldn't necessarily use for fashion. So how did you manage to sort of water down those boundaries? I don't think no one's ever gotten rid of them totally.
- [09:20]
Douglas Friedman
It's all because of Glenda Bailey. I was a photographer in New York City back in a little more than 15 years ago, maybe 16 years ago. And I was shooting little things. I would do some things. Not that they were little, but, you know, they weren't huge jobs. But I was still working, and I did a lot of food photography for GQ magazine. I was shooting some portraits for another magazine. And Olga Liriano was the photo editor at Harper's Bazaar. And she called me on a Friday because we'd known each other socially through friends, and she's like, our photographers dropped out. We need someone at Harper's Bazaar to shoot portraits of Diane von Furstenberg at her new apartment, her new home on 14th Street. Can you do it. I was like, yeah, totally. I can do it. Absolutely no problem. I said yes. And I was walking into a shoot that was portraits, fashion and interiors all at the same time. And I guess I did a really good job because I faked my way through it. And I felt like such a fraud. But I did, and Glenda Bailey loved it. And so from that moment on, Glenda hired me every single month. And for eight years, I shot for Harper's Bazaar, doing mostly the story called the Fashionable Life. So I was shooting these kind of hyper, elevated portraits of the most fabulous women in fashion in their apartments, in their homes, in their stores. So these environmental portraits, I got to shoot interiors, and I got to do everything I loved.
- [10:48]
Michael Boudreau
So now most of our listeners will know your work from the Shelter magazines, at least the older ones. The younger ones probably know you from social media or whatever. So how did you first break into the Shelter category? And why did you want to really push into that?
- [11:02]
Douglas Friedman
So I was lucky. I was shooting a lot for Harper's Bazaar. Listen, that was the best to be in the well of Bazaar every month. It was, you know, it was me and Terry Richardson and Karl Lagerfeld and the most incredible names. So I was kind of by association, I was given the opportunity to have a recognized name in the business, which was great.
- [11:22]
Michael Boudreau
And I'm sure all those ladies you were photographing just detested you, Douglas. And I'm sure they badmouthed you all over town, right?
- [11:30]
Douglas Friedman
We're still all friends, which is really nice, but I really wanted to shoot for Architectural Digest and El Decor, but I wasn't getting those jobs. So even though one of my best friends was Carlos Mota, one of the most brilliant interior stylists around. And I remember Carlos invited me. He says, do you want to come to this party? It's a fundraiser. It's on the upper side. It's going to be so fabulous. It's a gambling thing. Just a big society party. And he's like, I was supposed to go with Margaret Russell, but she can't go anymore, so you're going to go on her ticket. So we had a fun night. And the next day, I wrote a handwritten thank you note on my stationery. And I mailed it to Margaret, to Peggy, as a thank you. And she called me and she said, thank you so much for sending that note. Most people don't do that anymore. And that was my introduction. And then at that moment, she gave me my first commission shoot for Architectural Digest.
- [12:25]
Michael Boudreau
You know, it's funny that you Say this because I always tell young people, never underestimate the value of a handwritten note. It means so much, so low tech and so powerful. So that's so interesting. But it was a gesture of thanks. That's what the important thing, an acknowledgement.
- [12:39]
Douglas Friedman
And there was nothing behind the gesture. It wasn't like, well, if I do this, maybe I'll get a job. It was just, well, thank you so much. But she recognized something. And then I think maybe she paid attention to my work at that moment. But that's the moment that gave me a foot in the door to shoot, specifically interior and architecture work.
- [12:56]
Michael Boudreau
Now, since then, you have worked and you photographed some of the most amazing designers work in America. So when you're working with these top designers, do you find it easier than working with people who are lesser known? Do you find that they're work is more camera ready? Cause I guess my question is, how can our listeners think about making their rooms more camera ready?
- [13:18]
Douglas Friedman
There is no hard, fast rule to it. You know, I've been working with Ken Folk for over a decade, and Ken doesn't come to the shoots. He kind of trusts me and the team we've put together over the years to kind of get the work done. It's not always great when the designers show up. But to answer your question, at a certain, I don't know, maybe it's not at a certain level. Like, I don't exclusively work with what's considered to be like, the top tier of designers. I love working with new designers that have never been published, never had a proper shoot done. I don't necessarily have to love the aesthetic, but I do kind of love the passion and the commitment to the work. People that love to do what they do, that kind of comes across and I think to be prepared. I think it's important that when I'm working with Ken or Nicole Hollis or Peter Mickic, it's like everyone's prepared for this shooting. There's conversations beforehand, their teams have shown up, They've kind of tried to erase the layers of stuff that maybe the homeowners have put into the house, but everyone's always prepared. I have shown up on shoots where, you know, recently a shoot, and, yeah, just a couple of weeks ago, where they weren't prepared, where the designer hadn't been to the house in a year and a half, where someone hadn't shown up to think about sweeping or dusting. The homeowners hadn't lived there. It was a vacation home.
- [14:39]
Michael Boudreau
So rude when that happened.
- [14:40]
Douglas Friedman
It was a Little rude because we go in and I'll go in with the stylist. We're not housekeepers, we're not maids. And so when you show up at someone's house and you know the slept in sheets on the bed still, you're like, this is a lack of respect. Even less of me, but this lack of respect of yourself as the designer that you think. I say to people like, this is the moment that you've been waiting for. This is years of your life. This is the one opportunity that we have to make it look its best.
- [15:08]
Michael Boudreau
And shockingly, that happens more than anyone would think. I mean, you've experienced it. But I know the years at El Decor that not often, thank God, but the team would show up and the house was not ready. Anita Sarsidi would be mopping the floor. You know, this is like crazy. So I know that that does happen. And also I wanted to ask you, I mean, this is a little side issue, but that's an important lesson to our listeners. Make sure before you hire your photographer that the house is ready. You know, it's nice that they trust the homeowners, but don't trust the homeowner if they've been living in it for a while. You better go and make sure that.
- [15:40]
Douglas Friedman
Things, I mean, a photo shoot is a big deal. They're not inexpensive and a lot of people's time is being utilized to get that done. So as the designer, if like your advanced work, if your pre production is not 100%, then at the end of the day, you're just doing yourself a disservice. Hi everybody and thanks for joining us on the Cherish podcast. I'm Ana Brockway, the co founder and president of Cherish. I'm really excited to let you know that we've just added a major new feature on Cherish. It's called Cherish messaging and it lets you communicate directly and privately with our sellers. If you have a question on an item, need a specific measurement, want to ask about a seller's price flexibility? You can now speak discreetly and directly to our dealers through Cherish. Shoppers and particularly the trade have been asking for this feature and we've listened and delivered it. So please come on over and give it a try. Now back to the show.
- [16:49]
Michael Boudreau
This is what I ask you about as well. You know, things have changed. I mean, it used to be that the magazines in general would hire the photographers and the stylists to go and do the shoot. Now social media is very different. I mean, social media, you benefit from you have a huge following. But social media has also, I think, to an extent, devalued photography and devalued the role of the photographer because everyone can thinks they can be a photographer. I don't know, maybe you don't agree with me on that, but I think the way you work has probably changed, has it not? I mean, it isn't just magazines that hire you now. Don't designers often hire you if they're doing a book or something or for their portfolio for their website? How does it work?
- [17:26]
Douglas Friedman
The landscape has changed. And this is here to answer. There's a few questions in there.
- [17:30]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, I tend to do that. Sorry.
- [17:32]
Douglas Friedman
No, that's okay. So, yes, because of social media, because of everyone needing more content, everyone has a digital presence. There's ad pro, eldercord, online, there's gal. And so all of a sudden, everybody needs more content. So I sometimes feel that there's less value placed on. I don't know, the way images are captured is different. So you have a lot more photographers shooting a lot more projects a lot quicker. The budgets are less. But that's one side of it. There's still another side of it where the real art of interiors photography, where I'm on set with Anita and my assistant kit, and we're picking apart, like, every flower petal, every tangent, where everything crosses another thing in the picture, and we pay so much attention to the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest details, and we'll spend an hour on one picture, and that shows, and there's still people that want to see that. And there's always gonna be room for that, and there's gonna be room for certain outlets need fresh material every single day. And so those projects are out there too. There was a moment where I was like, God, how am I gonna compete with all this? And now I've realized I don't need to worry about competing with it all because there's plenty of room. There was a time where all of the work that you saw in a shelter magazine was commissioned by the magazine. And just because of the changing state of publishing and the diminished budgets and the magazines don't always have the opportunity to commission the best work. So that's kind of opened up this whole other interesting market where designers and architects, they'll hire a photographer and a stylist that, say, kind of approved by a DRL decor gallery, you know, they work enough, and so they'll hire that team to capture their work. So when I'm hired by, say in the beginning by, like, Ken Folke, or whoever it is. Now even we go in with the directive of, let's shoot this project editorially, like I'm here with Anita Star cd. Let's shoot it editorially as if we were gonna do this for publication. And so that's how we enter these projects. So we've got two days. We're not gonna shoot every guest bathroom, we're not gonna shoot every bedroom, but we're gonna shoot the strongest editorial story. And then that is a package or the client's PR or Anita. We can show it to the magazines. And it's at the level of what they expect and want. And then everybody kind of wins because I get to do this work with the client. We've kind of dictated what we want to capture, so we have ownership of that. But then I'm making some money. The magazine is getting a top notch editorial story and they haven't had to shell out $50,000 for it.
- [20:15]
Michael Boudreau
And their budgets are less, as I can personally attest. Even so, even from my era, the budgets were already shrinking. So this is a really strong one. Now, as sort of a side thing I wanted to ask you about is stylists. Because I know that you work with stylists that you like and you have great rapport with. You know, after you've worked for a while with somebody, you have a shorthand. But I think a lot of designers don't understand the role of a stylist. We did a whole episode with stylists to try and explain this. But why do you think stylists are so important to get, as you were saying, the top tier editorial, quality shoot.
- [20:49]
Douglas Friedman
Let me just say that I think there's a difference between stylists and editors. Like a sittings editor. I've worked with a lot of stylists and they're fine. But when you work with an editor, when you work with Anita or Cynthia or Carlos, Cynthia Frank, you're working with someone that approaches these shoots from an edit and is a different perspective because they're thinking about the grander, bigger narrative here, as opposed to just what looks good in that one photograph. Like they're building the whole character of that story as we're working together. And it does make a difference. It does make a successful shoot, monstrously successful, when a stylist is editing. Because a stylist isn't someone. And I talk about it, when I say stylist, I mean an editor. Like, I'm talking about this top tier of people that I like to work with. Their work is more than just ironing the sheet or putting a flower in, because it's a lot more than that. And I think that when I go in with my editor, with my stylist, I don't think there's room for nostalgia in a picture. And I was working with a designer on a shoot and I was like, maybe we should take this out and maybe like, this ceramic cherub's head should come off of the coffee table. Because I knew that Margaret Russell didn't like sunflowers. So you kind of know what magazines are going to go for, what they're not going to go for. So I'm taking things, I'm editing these things out. They're editing things out. And the designer's like, oh, but that means a lot to me because. Well, I know, but you need this fresh set of eyes on your work to help you get it ready for. And you can hire me because you've seen my work and I have a specific point of view, whatever that is. Or you could hire another photographer whose work you like because they see the world slightly differently. They see it brighter. They see. They see the world with more shit in it, or they see the world with like, no flowers in it. Whatever it is, that's what you're responding to.
- [22:43]
Michael Boudreau
And it's so interesting because the room is the room, but it can be viewed in so many different ways, as you were saying, depending on the style of the photographer. And people who don't know better will think, oh, it's just a picture of a room. But that is not true. And also, I think, which a lot of designers don't realize, and we've tried to emphasize this a couple times in the podcast, is there is a real difference between the way a room looks and the way a room looks in a photograph. Oh, yeah, that's what you. I would take this out, move this. And you know, a lot of designers think, no, that room doesn't function that way. But the room's function at this moment is to make a great photograph. Not that you bring in truckloads of accessories. Those days are long gone.
- [23:21]
Douglas Friedman
No, but we'll like spin a whole living room around because, well, you don't want to look at the back of the sofa. So if we put the sofa here and put two chairs here, then we can see the coffee. Like, there's a million reasons why I'm not moving furniture because I like it better that way. I'm moving it because I trained as a photographer on a 4 by 5 camera, so I saw everything upside down. And backwards. So it was less about the beauty, was something different. It was about where lines intersected. It was where colors intersected. And you know how you see the world that way cleanly. And so you're removing things not because you're emotionally attached to it, where you think it's better, but you're moving it because it's. Is whatever feels balanced in my brain.
- [24:01]
Michael Boudreau
You're really translating into two dimensions. So that's very different. I remember once I got a letter from a reader when I was at El Decor, and he complained that we had Photoshopped the reflections on something. Which I was gonna say, if you think we have the budget to do that, you're crazy. But then he was complaining that there were no light switches or floor plugs. And I said, well, that's true. They would Photoshop those out. That was easy. And I wrote back to him. I said, take a picture of your own room. And they used to be good advice, like to take a picture of in black and white to see how the scale is and how things are working together. But I said, take a picture of your room. And one of the first things you're gonna notice is the light switches and the electrical plugs. Cause they just jump out at you. And when you're in a room, they don't jump out at you. So, yes, you're cheating in a way by Photoshopping them out, but you're actually giving a more accurate representation of what it's like to be in that room when they're not there. And that, I think, is hard for people to understand, especially a lot of designers who are in the room in three dimensional. They know how the flow goes. They understand how people. Am I gonna move through this space? Which is crucial? And that's part of their job. And that's great. But it isn't always gonna work as well in two dimensions as a photograph. And I think that that's something that you guys understand innately. Well, now, after all the years you've done it, Douglas, you've certainly more than innately, but I'd love to get a sense. Cause you have literally been in thousands of rooms, and you photographed thousands of rooms. Not to name names or anything, but what are some of the biggest mistakes that you think designers make when they're approaching the rooms? Cause I. You've photographed from all levels of designers.
- [25:33]
Douglas Friedman
As you were saying, I'm so lucky. I get to work with a level of designer that thinks about what the inside of the drawer looks like, that thinks about the color of the inside of a closet. Like, I work with these people that care so deeply about, like, there's no drywall. There's so much consideration. I mean, I feel like the mis. God, I want to be kind, and who am I to. But I feel like it comes down to designing versus decorating and. Okay, so, for example, I did some work in Dallas, and again, it's such a privilege to go to Dallas and shoot the Kip Space show house. And I get a couple of days. I've done some stuff. I did a commercial there with the Shade store and got to really experience everybody's work. So I get this survey of work, and I see, like, Donovan Moore. The work he did on this bathroom at the show house was incredible. Like, the marble moldings. Like, it was so unbelievable, the amount of work that he. And then you have another room where I'm like, did they just go into their warehouse and get, like, whatever leftovers they had and slap it on? So I don't know. I guess I can feel when a room just doesn't feel that it was loved to death or it wasn't finished enough. And I'm still renovating a very challenging project. I have so much more respect for designers and architects now that I'm working on this house in Long island. And I'm working with Stephen Gambrel, who is the best. Like, the best of the best. And so he is incredible, and I'm so lucky. He's my friend, so he's doing this as a friend. But I'm learning there's a million decisions to make in each room. Literally a million decisions. You can start talking about nail heads and what they're made out of. And it's so much fun to geek out on the tiniest. And I think those are the designers whose work is so exceptional, is that nothing is not considered. Like, every single thing is thought about everything. Even, like, the pole on some drapes, it's not. Maybe it's even that skin. I did a project with Nicole Hollis where the hinges on the doors were cast in bronze with marijuana leaves. And the most. No one's ever going to see it, except if you knew to look. And so when you're exposed to that and when you know that all of that is an option, that it's possible, well, then it's like, it's not an option not to think about it, but.
- [27:57]
Michael Boudreau
It'S an option not to be able to afford it.
- [27:59]
Douglas Friedman
But it doesn't always have to boil.
- [28:00]
Michael Boudreau
Down to no, it isn't always money. But I'm just saying, like, when I.
- [28:04]
Douglas Friedman
Built this house in Martha, Texas, I didn't have a lot of money, and I was really kind of had to be very clever about. But it was the middle of the desert in the middle of nowhere, and I had like, every single thing had to be purchased and brought onto that property. You know, from shipped to distance. Yeah, but every piece of gravel, every nail, every screw. So that was also an opportunity. Well, is that the screw that I want, or. You can actually think about those things. And if you're not thinking about those things, the chances that it all aligns magically is not always possible. So when all those things are considered, that seems to be the recipe for the perfect balance in a designer's work.
- [28:44]
Michael Boudreau
But. And what's interesting to me too, and I think this is indicative of your work, is that the house in Marfa, which is basically a glass modernist glass house, and yet the one you're doing in Belport, I believe it's a 19th century house. Is it you're renovating?
- [28:59]
Douglas Friedman
1920S.
- [29:00]
Michael Boudreau
1920S.
- [29:01]
Douglas Friedman
Well, the first part was 1870.
- [29:02]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah. Okay, so. But both of them are equally appealing to you.
- [29:06]
Douglas Friedman
Brookhaven, next to Belfort, happened because I felt I was so lucky to get a house out there because it seemed everybody wanted a house out there. I couldn't get any. Like, it was crazy. I kept looking. It didn't matter. Like, it could have been a tiny little ranch. Like, I was so anxious. Like, the more I couldn't get one, the more I was like, I need a house. Like, it was crazy. Overextending myself. But I think these things are also like, you know, it's the universe getting involved where it's like, you know, that's a forever house. And it's really killing me emotionally and financially, this house, because everyone tells you, oh, it's gonna cost twice as much and take twice as long. And I think, not me. Cause I have so much experience in this business. And I like, I'm gonna do this under budget and on time. And that was. But, okay, so there was no foundation under the house, and all the wooden side was rotten. And we have to prop it up and put a foundation in a basement and replace all the interior structure. It's like, oh, my God, the amount of anxiety that this house has caused and joy, I'm doing this once in my life. Never again. It gives me so much more respect for the designers and architects that I work with that they choose to do this multiple times a year.
- [30:20]
Michael Boudreau
Well, also, usually they're spending other People's money, which makes it a little easier. But when is your own money? But what impresses me about it is that there are such different types of houses and that you responded to both. And I think that's part of why you've been so successful, Douglas, is. I don't think you have. You know, a photographer for hire will go and shoot whatever they're hired to shoot. Although you are at the point where you can say no if you don't want to do it. But I think that you have a response to certain quality. You respond to a certain quality of design or patina or whatever it might be.
- [30:54]
Douglas Friedman
It's not my job. I think my job would be really dull if I only photographed one thing. And I know that there are photographers out there that love to shoot the one thing that they love to shoot, and they never deviate. And it was interesting because when there was a lot more commissioned work, I was kind of pegged as, like, the modern guy. Like, let's give that guy the. And I was like, I love shooting a house that has, like, walls and windows. So I love the opportunity to shoot things that are unfamiliar to me or I don't have to wanna live there to go in. Like, if anything, it's like, how much fun is this if it's something that I don't love? But that's not my job to love it. My job is to make that look really good. So that just adds some more excitement to my day if I think it's an ugly room, but I'm gonna make the ugly room look its best.
- [31:42]
Michael Boudreau
I have a feeling you don't end up in too many ugly rooms anymore. I do still.
- [31:45]
Douglas Friedman
I do still. Oh, my God, there's so many ugly rooms that are so expensive. It's crazy. Listen, Michael, there are these projects that are, like $80 million things that you see in, like, I don't wanna say, but in these really kind of flash communities. And you're like, oh, my God. Like, this is. It's hard. Like, we just did this shoot in Austin, Texas, and it just came out this month in Architectural Digest. And the designer, Regan struble, and she's 23, and it's her first project. And this house was so this old, like, Hill country farmhouse. It had a very kind of 1990s shabby chic vibe. And I haven't seen that in so long or felt that in so long. But it was so much fun to shoot. And even I love that she had these incredible brick floors in the kitchen. Then she told me that it wasn't real brick, it was these little slivers of brick brick veneers that you get at Home Depot and she used them on the floor and it looks so good. So for people listening, it's not about having the money to do. Loro Piano, Cashmere Wolves. That's fun to do, but all of this can be done. All these homes, you can do them. I think it's like buying clothes. Like, if you buy really nice, good things, it doesn't have to be a lot of it, but it doesn't have to be the cheapest and it doesn't have to be the most expensive, but you can find something in the middle that will make your home incredible.
- [33:07]
Michael Boudreau
Ingenuity, like you were saying, like that brick veneer. That's the kind of thing that makes up for a lack of money. Not always, but if you can't use.
- [33:14]
Douglas Friedman
Like, marble slab, then you use tile and you can get a similar effect.
- [33:19]
Michael Boudreau
Now, I want to ask you to diverge just a little bit to celebrity, because you're friends of a lot of celebrities. Celebrity has become really important in the interior world. You've become a bit of a celebrity yourself, Douglas.
- [33:31]
Douglas Friedman
Mm.
- [33:32]
Michael Boudreau
And, you know, listen, we all know how charming you are and you're great company, and I think that that's a plus in your career, too, because if a designer's hanging out with a photographer, they want to hang out with somebody they want to hang out with and not some dry whatever person. That doesn't in any way lessen your talent. Because if the photograph wasn't good, nobody would want to publish it, nobody would hire you again. But how much of that celebrity status do you think has helped you? Or do you think that celebrity, in terms of the magazines, is too strong of an element? Because I worry about some of these younger designers who obviously are not going to start out with celebrity clients. Are they going to get the kind of exposure that they maybe deserve?
- [34:13]
Douglas Friedman
Yeah, I think you have to be resourceful. And celebrity clients aren't always working with the top tier designers. Does it help to enjoy your work? Absolutely. Does it help to have an archive of stories to tell at a shoot? Like my assistant Kit has heard, he's heard all of my jokes, he's heard all of my stories, but he reacts like he's heard it for the first time. My recipe for a shoot, which is we're eat some good food, we're going to talk, we're going to listen to music, we're going to crack jokes, we're going to Laugh like, I love my job. I think nine and a half days out of ten, I love it. And I'm always inspired by it. And it's like, let's keep working. We work hard and we take a lot of pictures and the clients are exhausted, but they experience the joy and the passion that we all have for our jobs on those sets. And it's not cheap. We're not cheap to hire and we're on the more expensive. I don't want to get tacky, but we're on the more expensive side of things. And I was like. And you keep hearing, no, but you're so expensive. You're so expensive. But I think I'm saying this with self awareness. I understand what you're talking about when you talk about that. I have this following, but I'm on set and I'm constantly photographed and videoed working. And then those find their way onto the social media sites of the clients. And that's fine. Like, you know, on set with Douglas, like, so I also understand that has added value to a client. I'm aware of it. Is that helpful? It actually could be for their own exposure. When the stories come out, you know, it's, am I going to post it? Probably. And the client's like, well, I want you to. You know, it's like, well, you don't ask me to do it because then I'm going to charge you. But I'm probably going to post it because I like the work and I like you. But yeah, there's value in that. But my presence on social media, that didn't happen by accident. That was years and years and years and years of committed, hard work that wasn't farmed out. That's my eye, that's my voice. Those are my experiences. I sacrifice a lot of my privacy and that's fine to allow for this. But the audience that follows, they're fashionable, they're stylistic, you know, they're culturally, like, there. It's a really interesting group of people that are responding to my point of view and it's helpful. It's another tool in your arsenal to.
- [36:42]
Michael Boudreau
Achieve success, and you've worked it very well. But staying on the topic of social media, I'd love to get your advice. A lot of our listeners are probably not ready or they're probably not going to be in an Architectural Digest immediately or El Decor or Gallery, and maybe they don't even want to be, but they all have businesses, successful, struggling, whatever it might be. The great thing about social media is anyone can do it. It doesn't really cost you anything. So I'd love to get your advice for those designers of how they should think about the images they create for social media. I mean, it was so interesting what you were saying about your own account. I think what people respond to is the authenticity of you.
- [37:22]
Douglas Friedman
I gotta tell you, Michael, I've had such a great track record of getting designers that have never been published published. So my advice is that it could be, like, why wouldn't it be? Why shouldn't it be possible to have your work in Architectural Digest? I remember Ken Folk shooting with Ken Folk for the very first time. He had never been published, and he hired me to do a shoot, and he didn't pull a punch. There was a $20,000 flower, like, you name it. This guy did everything.
- [37:52]
Michael Boudreau
Ken is like that, right?
- [37:54]
Douglas Friedman
It still is and still does. So I love working with designers that have never been published or don't think that they. And yes, are there moments. Are there times when clients hire me because they want me to help them get published, which I never promised? I cannot do that. I can believe in the work that I'm shooting. But if, honestly, if you show up on a set and you feel that the designer's heart isn't into it, and they expect me to pull rabbits out of a hat, then I'm like, well, I can only do so much. Like, everyone has to be in it.
- [38:26]
Michael Boudreau
That's totally true. So let's say there's somebody who's starting out, a young designer who's starting out or maybe has been in business for 10 years, and maybe they're in a small city. They're not in New York or San Francisco or Chicago even. But they want to get clients. Their main concern is clients. And for their website or their social media, is there something they should think about in terms of the way they present their projects that people are going to respond to?
- [38:51]
Douglas Friedman
Like we were saying before, this is the most important thing you've done, that you spent. So my advice is to start a little slush fund on each project. Like, put away a little bit of money on each project, and by the end of those two years or whatever it is, you'll have enough for a photo shoot and pick a photographer and stay in that lane. Because if you have a different point of view, a different style of photography, a different photographer on every project, you're gonna notice the photography before you notice what that designer's doing. So I disappear from, like, Nicole Hollis's books because that point of view and the lighting's not changing. So you really get to see her materials. You get to see, you know, I just shot with the designer in Europe last week, Peter Mickic, whose work is incredible. And then I'd seen some of his other work that had been photographed by a different photographer. You wouldn't recognize it, and you're like, you're not even seeing the same designer. So stay in your lane consistency, be consistent with your photographer, and then your work's gonna shine. Like, invest in the work. Don't show up to a set with some hot house tulips and a bag of Granny Smith apples. I don't know. It's like, I think you have to treat your work like I treat every single shoot that I do. Whether it's $180 million house in Palo Alto or a tin roofed shack in West Texas hill country. I treat them all with the same amount of importance and respect. And I think every designer, I think if this is your work, this is the most important work out there. And you've got to treat it like that. And so make a couple of sacrifices. Find a great photographer. Find a style that you like in photography. Find that person that's maybe local to your community, because there's so many great photographers out there that don't come out of New York City and cost an arm and a leg. You can be super thoughtful about the work that you're doing to try and achieve the vibe, but it will show over four projects that are shot by the same. It's gonna be a point of view that will feel cohesive. You could imagine looking at all those pictures in a book and being like, I see it. There's a reason when you see a Stephen Gambrel project, you know, it's Stephen Gambrel. His work is really identifiable. But Eric Pasecki is doing a really great job of capturing that work from a very specific point of view that makes it identifiable. My work with Ken folk and Ken's work is very broad. Like, there are so many different looks. But what keeps all of his work in the same world are his florals and the photography. And that's what's holding it together as a body of work. I mean, not. But it's one of the elements that allows you to recognize it and that's what you want. Like, I'm so flattered when someone's like, I can recognize your photography by it's color, it's contrast, whatever it is. And I'm like, well, thank you. That's what you want to achieve as a designer. Very Good advice.
- [41:53]
Michael Boudreau
Very good advice. So, Douglas, what's next? Coming up. What are you looking at? What are you thinking about doing? What are you being asked to do?
- [42:02]
Douglas Friedman
I gotta say, in a career that has no job security because you're freelance, I actually have some job security. I have an incredible team that I'm so thrilled to be working with. And so we're booked solid, which is great because I've got a very expensive renovation to pay for.
- [42:19]
Michael Boudreau
Yes, I'm sure you do.
- [42:21]
Douglas Friedman
So this year is a lot of work. And I have a book coming out with Nicole Hollis this fall, which I'm very excited about. I'm just finishing another book. I can't say with who, but it's going to be a doozy.
- [42:32]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, great.
- [42:34]
Douglas Friedman
Kind of one of the most important living fashion designers. We're doing a book and so that's coming out in 2025, which I'm excited, really. Actually, that's going to be thrilling. I have a couple of things I'm working on. I'm not ready to announce him yet.
- [42:46]
Michael Boudreau
Everyone who's listening, A, should look at Douglas's work, but B, follow him on social media. He has a huge following and we're all happy to be part of that. And Douglas, this has been so helpful. I think it's going to prove very, very helpful to our listeners. And I really appreciate your taking the time. And so I want to thank my wonderful guest, Douglas Friedman, and thank everyone for listening to the Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email us@podcasterish.com the Cherish podcast is produced by Muggs Buckley and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.