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- [00:00]
Michael Boudreau
This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry. At a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change, it takes courage and perhaps a bit of hubris for a designer to go out on their own. How do you know when the time is right to leave a secure job and establish your own firm and aesthetic identity? Running a business is very different from being an employee. Are the rewards worth the risks? How do you win over those first clients? And what are the biggest challenges and frustrations along the way? Today, we welcome three designers who recently founded their own firms after years of working with some of the country's top talents. They're here to share their stories about the rigors of starting out and why they felt it crucial to make that move. First up is Manhattan based interior designer Tara McCauley, who worked for El Decor A list designer Nick Olson for eight years. She draws from an eclectic array of influences from art history, fashion, and travel to create interiors that are romantic, layered, and often feature a dash of humor. In 2023, Tara was named on House Beautiful magazine's Next Wave list. Welcome, Tara.
- [01:33]
Tara McCauley
Thanks for having me, Michael.
- [01:35]
Michael Boudreau
Thank you. Michael Capuano is based in Reading, Connecticut. After obtaining a master's degree from the New York School of Interior Design, he took on senior roles with AD100 designers David Kleinberg, Jeffrey Bilhuber, and Frank DiBiase. He founded his own firm, Michael Capuano Design, in 2023, specializing in classic American spaces infused with a modern spirit. Hello, Michael.
- [01:59]
Michael Capuano
Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me.
- [02:01]
Michael Boudreau
So glad you're here. Claire Ratliff, a native of Austin, Texas, studied interior design at the Inchbald School of Design in London. After moving to New York City, she worked with Robert a.m. stern Architects, David Kleinberg Design Associates, and at Cullman and Kravis, where she was named partner. She returned to Austin in 2020, where she joined forces with her fellow Cullman and Kravis alum Amanda Darnell to form Henry Street Design. Welcome, Claire.
- [02:28]
Claire Ratliff
Thanks so much, Michael. Excited to be here.
- [02:30]
Michael Boudreau
Glad you're here. So I want to get a sense from each of you, and why don't we start with you, Tara, when you felt you were ready to move out on your own and what was the biggest motivator for you?
- [02:40]
Tara McCauley
I would say that I've always wanted to be my own principal, so to speak. Growing up, I thought that I wanted to be a fashion designer, and once I pivoted to interior design, I ultimately had the goal of being the head of a firm. But I'm so thankful to have found Nick Olsen. He's one of the nicest people that I've ever met, and our aesthetic is very similar. So I was in no rush to leave. I almost feel like I was waiting for the timing to feel right, where I could leave in a good place and know that I wasn't leaving him in the lurch in any way. There was a team who could take over, and I felt, like, financially confident enough to go out on my own. I had some savings at that point, and I always said, you know, if there's very little overhead in a service industry like this, if three years from now I fall flat on my butt, like, I can go and get another job doing what I was doing.
- [03:43]
Michael Boudreau
Right. That's reassuring.
- [03:45]
Tara McCauley
Wow. It just felt like it was time.
- [03:47]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, Claire, would you say the same with you, or was there a motivating factor? Did you have a fight with the client? What happened?
- [03:54]
Claire Ratliff
Well, mine was a little bit different, I have to say. Mine was more geographical because I wanted to get home to Austin. I had moved to New York pretty much right after I graduated from design school and thought I'd lived there for a year or two, and then 25 years passed in a blink. In a blink. And so sort of had to reevaluate and decide that I was ready to make the move home to Texas. But I was so lucky to have all my New York experience to prepare me to start a business here in Austin.
- [04:26]
Michael Boudreau
But also, Claire, you had a partner, so that must have been a help, in a way. Was that reassuring for you?
- [04:33]
Claire Ratliff
Most definitely. And it was just sort of really kismet because we had both worked together at Coleman and Kravis, and she moved to Austin because her husband got a great job offer here. So she actually beat me to my hometown. She's from California originally, so it just kind of organically all kind of fell into place. I then started talking about moving back to Texas, and it just. It all made sense.
- [04:59]
Michael Boudreau
And, Michael, what about you? What was the motivating factor?
- [05:02]
Michael Capuano
I think I was a little more similar to Claire in that after Covid, I had been working for David Kleinberg, and things just started to feel right to move out of the city, and I was lucky enough to be able to purchase a home up here in Reading, and I sort of just didn't want to do the commute anymore. And with a few different firms under my belt, I felt confident that if I wanted to launch something on my own, that I had enough experience to justify leaving the city.
- [05:36]
Michael Boudreau
So I wanted to ask Tara, did you have a client lined up? And this is what everybody wants to know, I think, is how do you get your first client? Because you've worked with these big name people, all of whom are super well known and respected, but they don't know you. I mean, I'm sure their clients have interacted with you, you've worked on all their projects, but the general public doesn't know you. So did you start a social media campaign before you on your for yourself? How do you get those first clients to spend their money with you and not somebody else?
- [06:06]
Tara McCauley
I know that this is not the case with every boss, but I had a very transparent conversation with Nick for the past few years, honestly, of the eight years that I was with him before I even said, I want to go out on my own. I had my apartment a few apartments ago, now, photographed. And I asked for his opinion on where to pitch it. And he put me in touch with Wendy Goodman at New York Magazine, and that apartment was published. I had learned from Nick that sort of using your own apartment as a portfolio when you're just starting out and you don't have clients of your own is a great way to create an instant portfolio, so to speak. And I was very transparent. Also, like in 2020, I started working very small design jobs on the side. I said, nick, do you mind if I do this outside working hours? They're not clients who would necessarily come to you. Their budgets are not quite at the level of your existing clients. So it's not really like I'm taking work away from you. And he was supportive of that. So it was sort of like a gradual phasing. My. Which I realize is not necessarily possible at every firm. Every firm has their own policies around that.
- [07:25]
Michael Boudreau
And I'm not surprised to hear that Nick was a good mentor to you in that way because he is incredibly generous and supportive.
- [07:33]
Tara McCauley
I feel like he had a similar relationship with Miles Rudd, who was his mentor.
- [07:36]
Michael Boudreau
Right, exactly. And that kind of good management has passed along. So, Claire, how about you? How did you get your first clients?
- [07:45]
Claire Ratliff
Well, similar to what Tara was saying, my boss, my last boss that I had in New York was Ellie Coleman. And she's definitely a mentor to many another mensch. Yeah. And just so unbelievably gracious and supportive. And during my time at Coleman and Kravis, I'd Actually done a job here in Austin that was through Coleman and Kravis. But through that client, we built a relationship. People saw her house. So when Amanda and I touched down here in Austin to start our business, there was already a little bit of word of mouth happening. So beyond Austin clients, we've been very lucky. Ellie has also sent some other jobs our way that maybe weren't the perfect fit for Coleman and Kravis, but, you know, for Amanda and I were a great opportunity. So, you know, I would say definitely one of the most important things of going out on your own is definitely nurture those relationships and don't burn a bridge, because if you leave in the right manner, you'll have that relationship for many years to come. And for us, it has been unbelievably helpful.
- [08:55]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, and it's interesting. It seems like you all work for big name firms that are used to fairly big budgets, whereas there are a lot of people that don't have that kind of money but also want to have beautiful homes. And if you can tap into that market, it seems so. Michael, how about your clients? Was that how that worked with you? Was it friends, family? How did that work?
- [09:14]
Michael Capuano
Initially for me, I was working on a renovation of my own home and my contractor and I had this really great dynamic.
- [09:25]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, that's rare.
- [09:27]
Michael Capuano
It is rare. And I didn't have an architect, so I was doing a lot of the work myself. And because we were able to sort of jive, he recommended me to some of the clients on his existing projects where he wasn't working with an interior designer or an architect. So it started off with a few small scale projects where the homeowner needed help picking out bathroom fittings or designing kitchen millwork. And those were maybe budgets that didn't justify getting a more established interior designer. And so it sort of became this perfect puzzle where he and I worked together on these smaller projects. And it just sort of grew from there. Then the word of mouth took off and then those people ended up doing larger phases and it worked out quite well.
- [10:16]
Michael Boudreau
So I also want to ask about your design aesthetics, because you're all starting out on your own. So is this a chance for you to do something different? Did you see that as an opportunity to, like Tara, you were working with Nick, to sort of push beyond that. Did you have something in the back of your mind or has this been a more organic process as you're aesthetic has evolved?
- [10:41]
Tara McCauley
I think I'm very lucky because I ended up at a firm where our aesthetics were very well attuned to one another, honestly. Like, yes, it's true that I haven't really worked at any other firms, but if I had to choose someone whose aesthetic closely aligns to mine, I would choose Nick. Anyway, I think I have different preferences, and maybe he's more into the 80s chintz look. And maybe I like French Art modern a little. But I think it's been, like, a pretty natural process of distilling my own aesthetic and editing it through clients. Because my process is pretty collaborative. And I think that all of my projects look a little bit different from one another in a natural way that reflects the client's taste.
- [11:30]
Michael Boudreau
And, Michael, you work for David Kleinberg. Very high end budgets. Very high end. And I think you are a traditionalist, wouldn't you say?
- [11:41]
Michael Capuano
Definitely. So for me, when I was in design school, I was lucky enough to intern for Bunny Williams. And that was a wonderful experience. And what I learned there was that even though you may be known for a certain style, and I think Bunny does a lot of projects that aren't necessarily what people think of her as. And that sort of really stuck out in my mind because I wanted to be able to do lots of different styles. There are things I appreciate in every genre, even though maybe for myself, I'm definitely more of a traditionalist. So after I graduated from design school, I really wanted to work for a few people for shorter amounts of time because I just wanted to try to get different aesthetics from different people. So when I worked for Frank, he was working with a lot more sort of like what I like to call, like, art furniture. And he liked sort of those bold artists. And then I went to Jeffrey Bill Huber, who was layering patterns and colors and blending a few modern pieces with things that were almost like you could find at a flea market. And then David Kleinberg, who had just a super strong architectural influence on all of his interiors. I felt like those three people sort of gave me the most well rounded, I guess, attributes to designing an interior. So when ultimately I went out on my own, I felt like I can pull from all three of those to sort of develop my own aesthetic, because it really is little bits of each of them, or things that I learned from each of them, I should say.
- [13:23]
Michael Boudreau
And, Claire, obviously you worked for a long time with Colman Kravitz, but you worked with Bob Stern. So how do you see your own aesthetic evolving?
- [13:31]
Claire Ratliff
Well, I feel like I've taken a little bit of all of those places with me, and it sort of helped me develop my style. I mean, all of them have foundations in classicism, most definitely. And the proper order of things. And I definitely feel like I still apply those to every single job. Even if the job leans more contemporary, we like to say that we can do anything. And even when I started at Coleman and Kravis, I would say Coleman and Kravis, when I started there, was very traditional. Like, we did not go outside the lines at all. And it's even evolved. So I feel like even during my time there, I was able to apply the things I'd learned at Bob Stearns and at David Kleinberg's to kind of update my own look within the Coleman and Kravis genre. And then I've taken that on with me, I feel like. But from each of them, I feel like I got such a strong foundation to kind of pick and choose the parts that really spoke to me and helped develop my design vocabulary.
- [14:34]
Michael Boudreau
And do you feel it's. You've adapted differently being in Texas? Does Texas call for a different take on it?
- [14:39]
Claire Ratliff
Most definitely. I always like to say New York is like the parallel universe. You know, you get all of these jobs that really don't occur that many other places in the United States. So I feel like I learned tricks from that that I've had to sort of adapt to not only the aesthetic here in Texas, but to the budgets. I mean, the budgets. While there are healthy budgets anywhere, like I said, New York is a whole nother stratosphere many times. So, yeah, it's taken some adapting.
- [15:08]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah. And now to switch gears a little, I want to ask about the business side, because, you know, being a designer and you're all incredibly creative and talented, but it's a business. So, Tara, have you found that it's, like, made you stretch your entrepreneurial muscles? Have you had to learn things that maybe you observed in your other jobs, but now you had to do them yourself? How is that different for you, working.
- [15:32]
Tara McCauley
At the same place for so long and with a small team? I did get a lot of firsthand experience doing all of the admin stuff, as well as the creative stuff, which I think is a benefit of working somewhere smaller. I'm sure that there are other benefits I could have gleaned from working somewhere large, which I never did. But I think that it's just been a learning curve. No matter how many years of experience you have working in this field, as soon as you're out on your own, you are handling 100% of everything 24. 7. And sometimes I wasn't unprepared, but I've definitely learned through making mistakes in the past two and a half years of being out on my own and dealing with people and some potential clients, I think see someone new in business as a potential mark, so to speak, which sounds very cynical and negative, but some people think, oh, she just started. We can get this for free. We can have her. Yeah, yeah. And it's just been a process of learning how to establish clear boundaries and developing a portfolio. And just I'm in a place where I'm really happy now with all the clients I have and the mutual respect we have for one another.
- [16:53]
Michael Boudreau
Right. And, Michael, what about for you? Was it a come down with it, or did, you know, like, you'd have to do your own purchase orders, you have to call in your own fabric samples, all of that stuff? Was that sort of a shock to the system?
- [17:05]
Michael Capuano
Well, I'm a terrible control freak, so. I loved that part. I love that everything. I should be complaining because if I was a lot more busy, maybe I would be harder. But right now, I just love to do all of it. And I will say from the beginning, I really enjoyed the business side of it. And so I spent just as much time honing my skills, doing that as I did the creative side. And that was honestly one of the things that intrigued me about going out on my own, because there were so many things that I would do differently, experiencing how other firms did things. And I always sort of had this, like, running list in my mind of, oh, well, if I was in control, I would do it this way, or maybe I would handle that a little differently. Not to say that the places I was working was doing it incorrectly, but just me personally, and I was also very lucky. I worked with one of the business managers at Frank Dibiase, really helped me to hone those skills. So that was something that I know a lot of people don't get. And so I'm incredibly grateful for that. I was able to take advantage of learning the creative and the business hand in hand.
- [18:17]
Michael Boudreau
And, Clare, was it an issue for you having to do all of this stuff that Coleman Kravitz has not a huge staff, but they have a staff. Robert Stern has hundreds of people.
- [18:26]
Claire Ratliff
I'm not too proud to admit that I really liked the back of house support that you got. You could mark up your invoices, turn up them in, and the rest was sort of executed and done. That is a huge luxury that I now appreciate more than ever.
- [18:43]
Michael Boudreau
Those days will come back.
- [18:47]
Claire Ratliff
I will say, though, that the team at Coleman and Kravis has helped us immensely in establishing all the right systems. The stuff that we didn't really know about, we've been able to reach out and say, how should we do this? So that's been super helpful, I would say. I know a lot of people think, oh, we can do the whole thing. We can do our own bookkeeping. We can from A to Z. I would say one of the most valuable things we did was hire a really good bookkeeper. And it took so much stress off of us and allowed us to focus on the stuff that we love. Because I would say the first year we just felt like we were so in the weeds trying to keep up with the billing and the bookkeeping. So for us, that has been the best investment we could have made. Hi, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. I hope you're enjoying our podcast. My name is Ana Brockway and I'm the co founder and president of Cherish. If you're a designer who's struggling with long lead times from suppliers and increasingly impatient clients, now is the time to shop with us. Our vintage antique and one of a kind inventory is ready to ship right now. To learn more, visit cherish.com that's C-H-A-I-R-Com and now back to the show.
- [20:05]
Michael Boudreau
What has been the reaction of vendors? Because when you have a big firm behind you, they're going to, you know, you want samples, they're going to get those samples right away. Has that been a problem for you in your smaller status? No. These vendors should recognize that you're going to become big clients, if not right at the moment. So I would assume that they'd be sort of polite. But I could be wrong. Has that been the case? Have any of you had a problem with vendors?
- [20:27]
Claire Ratliff
I've found everyone to be really generous and supportive and we haven't really run into anything. In fact, we're doing a room at the Kips Bay Show House in Dallas right now and we've really had to lean hard on our vendors.
- [20:41]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, that's when you really find out.
- [20:44]
Claire Ratliff
And we've been so lucky. People have been so generous and I think they all want to see young firms do well and really grow and thrive. So I haven't run into a problem necessarily.
- [20:56]
Michael Capuano
I agree totally. I could count on maybe one hand someone who sort of dissipated a little. Everyone has been so kind. You get these relationships for designers in New York, at least. We're in the D and D building so frequently and these people become. They're more like friends than they are vendors. You see them so frequently and they rally and they're excited for you and it's a huge motivator. I think I could speak for all of us and, and saying that it makes it so much more rewarding when you have support behind you that's not your family, you know, or friends or family.
- [21:34]
Michael Boudreau
All of you have started your firms with the huge success of social media. So I'm curious about how you have used social media to get your message out there. A, that you exist, B, what you do, C, what kind of style? How important has social media been? Tara, why don't we start with you?
- [21:53]
Tara McCauley
I primarily use Instagram. I've started playing around with TikTok reluctantly. I don't say reluctantly because I don't think it's a useful medium. I just think it's a big time suck to edit videos and it's not my given skill set. Like when I was studying film in college, we were splicing 35 millimeter with tape. I'm not good at digital editing.
- [22:18]
Michael Boudreau
It is a whole new world.
- [22:20]
Tara McCauley
Yeah. So Instagram, though, has been very helpful for me. A few clients who I've gotten in the past year, I've asked them, how did you find me? And either they found me through Instagram or maybe, I don't know, like a furniture dealer that they work with, I tagged them and they found me that way. Or I did the Brooklyn Heights designer show house two years ago and a client I have now who I only started working with a few months ago, he said, oh, well, when I was at that show house, I didn't have a project, but I started following you on Instagram and I kept you in mind. And now that I'm renovating my house two years later, I remembered you because I've been following you ever since. So it's been really helpful. And it's a great way of sharing my portfolio in a way that feels really organic. And I think it doesn't feel super repetitive if I can share the same room multiple times, but this time is a professional photo and this time it's just like a little Instagram selfie in the mirror or something. It's a great way to tell a different layer of the story each time. I repost the same thing because when.
- [23:34]
Michael Boudreau
You don't have a huge portfolio but you want to keep your Instagram up, it's a challenge. Michael, how about you? What social media do you use?
- [23:42]
Michael Capuano
Well, I will say that maybe we should save my answer for the challenges portion of this podcast because social media is not my forte. And I know that as creatives, people look to us on social media to sort of show you what we are behind the scenes information or tips or, you know, I feel like so many people who aren't just in our industry follow designers for those reasons. And I'm just not a social media person. And I guess you need to be much more present when you're taking pictures that are gonna be used on social media. And everyone that I've worked for in the past is so heavily leans on these organized photo shoots that are so unbelievably well orchestrated that it's. Nothing is really like in the moment. It's. Everything is staged.
- [24:35]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, well, it sounds like you're going to have to hire somebody eventually get a little more successful to do your social media.
- [24:42]
Tara McCauley
Yes.
- [24:43]
Michael Boudreau
But what's interesting to me too about Instagram or Reels or TikTok is people do like the process stories. So, Clara, how do you aim your social media account? Is it to keep potential clients, keep them interested? Do you think it's like imprimatur, like a branding thing? How do you deal with it?
- [25:04]
Claire Ratliff
Well, I have to say I'm glad Michael answered that question first because I have to say I kind of fall into his camp a little bit. But thankfully my business partner is much more adept at social media than I am, so that's very helpful. I would say, though, it's something we should develop more because I do think it's really important. And so many people I feel like now don't even look at a website, they go to Instagram first. So it's definitely at the top of our priority list. But I think it helps, I think from just exposure in general. Not even necessarily just getting new clients, but just getting your name out there. I think it helps with vendor relationships because it gives you a little bit of gravitas, I guess. So I feel like across the board it definitely helps the business so much. But like I said, I'm just really grateful. Amanda's much better at it than I am.
- [25:59]
Michael Boudreau
Michael, maybe you need to hire Amanda. Well, that's, it's interesting because one of the things that I never realized about social media too is like you were saying, Claire, you know, if you tag a vendor or whatever, they will often pick up your posts and repost them. And that's another way of getting, you know, as you may have your X number of followers, but it's a way. And I had never realized that tagging people and having them pick up and repost things is really a Way to build your audience. So that's my $0.02 of advice for all of you in terms of social media, because I'm terrible at social media myself. Just so you should know.
- [26:35]
Claire Ratliff
To add to one point that Michael said, again, I'm from the camp of every photo shoot is a very structured thing, down to every last accessory and all of that. So I definitely, that's been my experience too. So I think for me, there's a little bit of a fear that, oh, this isn't going to be good enough to post. So I will say I use stories a lot more than I use the permanent post. And I find that even in my very feeble attempts at my stories, they get a lot of reaction and feedback. So I think for me, that helps me because of the background of having to have the perfect photo shoot. And you also get to where you're sort of hoarding those images for the right moment. So you don't want to put them on your Instagram. But stories have helped me kind of overcome that a little bit.
- [27:23]
Michael Boudreau
No, it's interesting. We all grew up and certainly I did. You guys are much younger than I am, but with the shelter magazines, with the perfectly lit photographs, the sequence of images and all that. But that doesn't seem to matter as much as it used to. Obviously, if you're doing a book or you're in a magazine, you want it to be that way, but in terms of social media, it doesn't seem to be as important. So I thought that's been really interesting to me. Now I want to add something different about your previous lives before you went independently, you know, you all worked for big name designers as we've established. And I'm sure that every single client and every single one of those designers, every project was a dream that you never had any issues with any clients ever. But I'm hoping that maybe there's one or two moments or lessons that you've picked up. Like you touched on this, Michael. You said you'd see systems that had been in place, that maybe they'd ask feet over the years that you wanted to change. But was there any management lessons that you learned in your previous roles as an employee about how to handle clients or how to handle vendors, how to handle egos in general? Is there something memorable that each of you has learned from your stints working for these very prestigious firms?
- [28:36]
Claire Ratliff
So I would say a big thing that Ellie always enforced is always be polite to your vendors if they send you an email, even if it's something you're not interested in, not pertinent. Always respond and say thank you. If you put an item on hold at an antique dealer and you're not going to purchase it, always reach out to them and say, we're not going to purchase it so that they don't lose another sale. And I will say, I think that was so valuable because you get wrapped up in your day to day and you get so focused on the fire you're putting out at the moment that you kind of forget that the most brief thank you helps and helps you build those relationships. And it helps just ensure that they're always be there to help you. They'll be happy to help you because it's a kind relationship.
- [29:26]
Michael Boudreau
I think that seems so simple, but I think that is so important. I think that it's a great bit of advice. Michael, how about you? Is there something that you observed, a lesson you learned?
- [29:36]
Michael Capuano
I will say it was working with custom upholstery workrooms. When I was working for Jeffrey Bill Huber, he was a master of upholstery details. And we would go to the upholstery workroom five times over the course of just one piece of furniture being made and really being able to hone in on the details of what's gonna make that piece of furniture function better for the client or look better or wear better. And they're not always things that you can do through a photograph that they might send you, or you need to touch and feel things and really getting your hands deep in that makes a difference to the product that's ultimately installed in your client's home.
- [30:23]
Michael Boudreau
And Tara, what about you? I'm sure Nick gave taught you a certain joie de vivre, or at least whatever. But what are some other lessons he taught you in terms of dealing with vendors, clients, whatever?
- [30:34]
Tara McCauley
Well, I originally interpreted your question as, what do you do a little differently? And this is not saying I saw something in practice that I avoid now because I disagreed with what he was doing. I have been billing in a different way in some situations. And I think, Michael, you mentioned you worked with a business coach. Early on I worked with one as well.
- [30:58]
Michael Boudreau
And.
- [30:58]
Tara McCauley
And I said sometimes I see at the firm that I was at, there was often scope creep, which I believe is a technical term where the scope of work balloons over time. But if you're charging a flat fee like we were, it was a little bit hard to accommodate the change and the amount of work that you're doing without being compensated.
- [31:21]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, you end up making $10 an hour. You have limits the number of hours.
- [31:26]
Tara McCauley
Yeah. And I mean, when you're working at a high end of design, it usually pays for itself if you're just selling more things to the client. But when I was starting out, if there was ever scope creep with a client where I was not making so much with my commission on items that I'm selling them, I'm mostly charging for my time. I have tried to build into my contracts an hourly estimate where I'll say, you know, I think that the scope of work that we've agreed to will take about this much time. But if we're getting close to that and you have added a lot to my scope of work, or you're taking a long time to make decisions, when I've presented an adequate number of options, we're going to start charging hourly again. And it feels like a very healthy boundary to set early on. If you are charging on an hourly basis.
- [32:17]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that's probably something that is really important for anyone starting out is to have a really good contract. There are so many ways to bill. So I think that's very smart that you rethought your contract because you aren't of the scope of Nick or David Kleinberg or whatever. So you have made the fact that you're changing the way you bill people because also their budgets, as you say, are smaller. So I found that's so interesting to me. I mean, something to think about.
- [32:44]
Tara McCauley
Yeah, it's a different situation with every client. You're trying to feel each other out in the very first conversation or two. Is this someone who makes decisions quickly? Is this someone who asks to see 10 options for each thing? Is this someone who gets really excited about the process and starts adding, oh, I wanna do this in the other room while we're doing it in here, et cetera, et cetera. And it's nice to be flexible in a way that feels like you're not just giving away your time if you are charging by an hourly basis.
- [33:19]
Michael Capuano
Tara, you mentioned it earlier about clients knowing like, well, who is this person? You know, I just started, there's not a lot of trust. But when you're really black and white with a client up front, they can see that you're serious and you take their job seriously. And I think that's been beneficial going into my own thing is, you show up with this contract and they see that you're real, you're legitimate, you're not just doing this willy nilly.
- [33:48]
Tara McCauley
And often when you're starting out you're working with clients who are starting out too. They have never worked with an interior designer before, and they might be have an impression of the only interior designers they've ever seen are on tv, where it looks like everything happens in a week and everything happens for $5. Or they may have heard something bad about an interior designer, like, oh, my impression is that you are trying to scam me and you're gonna mark things up incorrectly. I want to see the invoices. I don't trust you. And. And sometimes you sort of have to set some boundaries up front or even just, I don't want to say set a test, but see if this person is serious about hiring you or if they just want to get a little bit of free advice and they're not serious about the process.
- [34:39]
Michael Boudreau
Right. Well, that's the other problem when you're starting out is you don't have the luxury of saying no to someone. And I always say the definition of success is when you can say no until if it gets really untenable, then it's driving you crazy. You're going to abort that project. But, you know, you have to sort of figure out a ways. And like you were saying, Cara, I think clarity is really important. And so you said many of these people are working with a designer for the first time, and there is a lot of bad cliches about the design world and swathing in chintz and all that nonsense that you see on TV and in the movies. So, Claire, have you done anything differently, like revised your contract or anything since you started, made changes that you've adjusted to your new reality as opposed to working for the other firms?
- [35:23]
Claire Ratliff
Yeah, definitely. I would say our contract is a little bit different than past contracts. We have sort of structured ours differently. We found that for some reason, people seem more amenable to pay for hourly fees rather than markups, like substantial markups. So we try to kind of find like that balance between a lower markup, but structured a little bit differently. I will say I feel like with every project, we learn something new and add to our contract. So I would say it's a fluid document. But I think one really valuable thing that we've learned the hard way is that when someone takes your contract and. And even before you get going, has torn apart every single line of the contract, we've realized now that is just a sign of things to come and that just run.
- [36:20]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, I was gonna say that shows no trust. And that's bad. That's bad. Okay. So that sort of leads Me to. My next question for each of you is like, what has been? And Claire, you may have answered it already, but what has been the biggest surprise for each of you since you've gone out on your own as having your own firm as opposed to working with other designers?
- [36:40]
Michael Capuano
I will say the struggle to get a client that is more than just a small project that is a full scale. And maybe we are all a little spoiled because we've been able to work for people who are bringing in clients who are doing a 10,000 square foot house. And I'm now getting projects that are doing a living room refresh or like I said earlier, designing a kitchen. So that has been. I won't say that it's necessarily a challenge, but it's definitely been an eye opener that you have to start out being okay with taking on smaller things than just getting that one big project.
- [37:18]
Tara McCauley
I have over the past two and a half years of being out on my own, I think I am still getting used to being the decider, so to speak. I worked for someone else for eight years where I was sort of the filter. And I would present several options and then he would pick his favorites to show the client. And now I'm the only one in the room with the client. And if I give them options, sometimes they look at me like, well, I don't want to decide. Like, you're the one who's supposed to tell me what to do. And I. I'm happy too. And I have gained confidence not to say that I was shy before, but I was really used to being in that role where I was not the final designer. You know, I was like a senior designer, but I wasn't the person making every final decision. And now sometimes I think I show my clients too many options because I'm like, so used to being in a collaborative situation and I have to remind myself they don't have the time or they just want you to tell them what you think and that's why they.
- [38:29]
Michael Boudreau
Brought you in, and that's what they're paying you for.
- [38:32]
Tara McCauley
That's a big responsibility that I'm still reminding myself is the fun part of my job.
- [38:38]
Claire Ratliff
Yeah, that's so valid. One other thing that we kind of ran up against, and I don't know if this is just Texas thing that sort of happened to us, but we landed back here in Texas and started our business and our first few jobs would find like another designer that they absolutely thought hung the moon and basically want us to, like, recreate that designer's work and While we respect all of these other very established designers, we're not doing a stage set to look like so and so's work. So that was a little bit of a challenge at first. And we had a few clients at the very beginning. That was difficult because while we didn't have a huge body of work to show them of our own work, so they're showing pictures from other people as inspiration. So that was a bit challenging to strike that balance between giving them what they had seen in the magazine, but not just copying someone.
- [39:38]
Michael Boudreau
I suspect that doesn't just happen in Texas, just so you know, but you know it's true. And it's like, okay, that's a beautiful room, but that's not in Texas. The light is different. You have three kids. There's a lot of reasons that's not the right thing, but to convince people. And I mean, that's another aspect of social media. Maybe not such a good aspect, is that there's so much inspiration out there and there's so many images that people, oh, I love this, I love that. And it's like, oh, yeah, but that doesn't fit the style of your house at all. That's a desert house, and you're talking about a Manhattan penthouse. It's not the same. So I can see for all of you, you have to have your clients trust you, but yet at the same time, you don't have 10 projects or 20 projects in your portfolio to show them, to convince them. So I could see that that was more of a challenge.
- [40:24]
Tara McCauley
And that's a tricky thing. Where my portfolio until recently was really just my own home, where it was of kind clear. If you read the article that was written about it, that I did everything on a budget. And I think clients came to me saying, oh, you can make my house look like that on a budget, great. And they forget that it took me four years to find enough quality things at a bargain. And I did a lot of things myself that I don't have the time to do for them, like painting the walls. And early on, your portfolio, if you don't have work from your previous job in your portfolio, it looks a little thin. And like, I did a designer show house where it was a little editorial and I created an imaginary client and I wanted it to look beautiful in photos, but it's not necessarily the kind of home that would be comfortable for a real person. And I maybe made a little bit of a mistake there where clients come to me saying, you know, oh, you're the girl who does like the black rooms. And I have to like, no one black room.
- [41:33]
Michael Boudreau
Been there, done that.
- [41:35]
Michael Capuano
Yeah.
- [41:35]
Tara McCauley
I'm like, no, it was like a grand space, and I was doing something editorial, and it was moody. And I do love color, and I'm not trying to create my signature through one project.
- [41:45]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, my last question, because this has been so informative, I know that some of the people who are listening to this are going to be in the situation you guys were in three or four years ago, thinking they want to go out on their own, not sure how to do it, not sure they should make the leap. So what would be your one bit of advice to somebody in that situation who feels they're probably ready to go out on their own, but they need a little shovel? What would be your advice, Claire? What would you say?
- [42:17]
Claire Ratliff
I would say that it really just takes a leap of faith. But to get the business part set up properly, be sure you have all of the bookkeeping, the software that you need, all of that, because it's very hard to go back. So that would be my biggest piece of advice. And I know that's not the glamorous part of it. Most definitely not. But to me, I think getting the structure set up properly is the most important. So then once you get over that hurdle, you can and focus on the.
- [42:47]
Tara McCauley
Part you love to do.
- [42:48]
Michael Boudreau
Tara, how about you?
- [42:50]
Tara McCauley
Just as Claire's answer was very gung ho optimism, I would say, I don't want to sound like you should be coming from a place of fear, but don't start before you're ready. Financially, I was lucky. You know, I don't have any other mouths to feed, and I had very low overhead working from home and just providing a service. I didn't need to buy inventory, but I was careful to save up enough. So for a while, if I was making negative dollars, I was not going to go into credit card debt. And it does take longer than you think. Even when you have clients lined up when you quit your job, it just takes longer than you think it is because they'll always be unforeseen costs or you got to pay for your own health insurance and all your design software and your marketing, and just make sure that you have a little bit of cash reserved because it could take longer than you think.
- [43:55]
Michael Boudreau
Excellent advice, definitely.
- [43:57]
Michael Capuano
I was very lucky at David Kleinberg's office. When we would present things to clients, it was collaborative in presentation as well as design, so we would presenting ideas to clients together. And when I was starting to think about doing things on my own, I sort of made like this fake presentation to myself, which was, do I feel like I can take a scheme of something, some room, and be able to explain it to a client without having to look to my shoulder for a principal's approval on something or to back me up on an idea? And that sounds a lot like just having confidence, which I think is important, but you also have to be able to explain what you feel inside and how you view something verbally. And so when I felt that I can do that with a client on my own, I think that was my sort of little like, aha moment that, yeah, I got this. I can do it. I can get my ideas across.
- [44:59]
Michael Boudreau
Wow. That's also excellent advice. That's three bits of important advice that we're giving out to people free. So I cannot thank you guys enough. That's really. And I think you covered a broad swath of there. Of the industry and of the fears and the confidence that designers need to have to go out on their own. So you've all managed it so successfully, and I know that your success is only going to continue and your firms are going to grow at least as much as you want them to. So I want to thank my Wonderful guest, Kara McCauley, Michael Capuano and Claire Ratcliffe. And thank you so much, everyone, for listening to the Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell us a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email us@podcasterish.com the Cherish podcast is produced by Muggs Buckley and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.