← The Chairish Podcast
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- [00:00]
Michael Boudreau
This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry. At a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change, every new year brings a focus on what's next in design. Is it time to banish boucle? Are lacquered walls and jewel tone colors on their way out? Is the 1970s the next era ready for a revival? Of course, a lot more is going on than just trends. Does a more abundant housing market mean a slowdown for interior design firms? Will inflation put a damper on client budgets? How will technology change the way designers work? Will new apps and computer programs make work easier or only more confusing? Will your next assistant be virtual? I have with me three designers from across the country who are ready to weigh in on what they see ahead, what they're looking forward to in 2024, what is inspiring them, and what they would be just as happy never to have to see or think about again. First up is Sausalito based designer Katie McCaffrey. Before starting her own firm, Katie worked for 12 years with Martha Angus, and she also became an expert in antiques restorations. Her clean, lined and comfortable rooms, animated with bold graphic touches and rich colors, have been featured in House Beautiful and Luxe as well as numerous other publications. Welcome, Katie.
- [01:37]
Katie McCaffrey
Thank you so much for having me. Michael.
- [01:40]
Michael Boudreau
So glad you're here. Houston based Benjamin Johnston studied architecture at Texas A and M University and the University of Texas at Austin before founding his own design firm. He describes his interiors as classic, curated and cool, and they are also colorful, bold and luxurious. His work has been featured in numerous publications and he also designs furniture for Chattock Home, rugs for Madison, Lily rugs and fabrics for S. Harris. Hello Ben.
- [02:07]
Benjamin Johnston
Glad to be here.
- [02:08]
Michael Boudreau
Danielle Kolding started her Manhattan firm in 2007 after studies in cultural anthropology and African American studies at Stanford and then a stint with the renowned decorating firm Irvine and Fleming. Since then, she became the winner of HGTV's Design Star in 2012 and has completed a wide range of beautifully detailed and richly textured residences and commercial projects that have earned her a place on Elle Decor's A list. Welcome, Danielle.
- [02:34]
Danielle Kolding
Hi Michael. Thanks for having me.
- [02:36]
Michael Boudreau
Listen, it's so great that you're here and I want to start on a positive note because we may have to get into some issues that are maybe not so positive, but I want to start with what you guys are looking at, thinking about, like, a design item or trend or the work of a designer you've seen in the past year that you've gotten excited about and that you think is going to help shape the way you think about design in the year ahead. So why don't we start with you, Katie?
- [03:01]
Katie McCaffrey
Gosh, you know, I'm really enjoying seeing more color infused to interiors these days. So not one particular interior designer per se, but I'm loving just seeing the departure from all white kitchens and baths or the heavy weighing on gray. I'm loving seeing the infusion of bright new colors in cabinetry. And color is something that I'm really excited about and happy to see that it's coming back to the forefront again. I'm drawn a lot to the French blues right now. I love, like, any sort of blue gray, but the French blue has that wee bit of almost periwinkle to it, which I just love it. And we've seen it through time in French exteriors and interiors, and it still just looks so wonderful and fresh and adds a little bit of fun while still looking elegant and refined. So that's kind of my personal favorite. Although, you know, I really love any color on the cabinet. Just maybe not avocado green.
- [04:01]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah. Or gray. Like you were saying, enough with the gray.
- [04:05]
Katie McCaffrey
Enough with the gray.
- [04:06]
Michael Boudreau
And, Ben, what about you? What has been enticing to you of late?
- [04:09]
Benjamin Johnston
Well, I was thinking when Katie was answering about color, and I was just gonna say, for me, periwinkle is one of my new favorite colors, and I love it mixed with, like, a coral tomato red color, which I see emerging back in the marketplace. So I think those colors are really exciting me. And, yeah, to just echo the great thoughts that Katie shared. The truth is, is that expressive interiors, you know, I think that are unique is something I'm getting really excited about. And I love that designers are feeling more free to do more than just one look. You know, I see a lot of designers branching out and experimenting with their own sense of style, and that's very exciting to me because I don't think there's a one size fits all kind of solution for design. So I get excited about individuality.
- [04:55]
Michael Boudreau
Right. All right. Danielle, what about you?
- [04:58]
Danielle Kolding
So I definitely agree, more expressive, a lot of color. But I think the ways in which we're doing it are interesting. I think it's all about different finishes. I'm seeing a lot of really interesting, exotic woods used again. Right. Like burl wood and also really, like, shiny, polished. Right. Like, even with stone, I'm seeing ogee edges back. Like did we ever think we were going back to OG interesting? I don't think so, but we are.
- [05:24]
Michael Boudreau
Uh huh.
- [05:25]
Danielle Kolding
And I would say I love what Katie said and do love the French blue, but I am going to give a vote for avocado green. Oh, controversy, controversy. I'm really into these kind of like ugly, pretty colors. And I will say this grassy green, it's not quite avocado, but this kind of grassy, earthy green I'm seeing everywhere. And I love it. And so I think there's a lot more fun that people are having with those off colors.
- [05:54]
Michael Boudreau
Right. It's interesting cause Ad pro on one of their things were projecting that muddier colors are gonna be more important. And I've been seeing a little bit in the magazine. So it's interesting that you say that one quick addition.
- [06:06]
Benjamin Johnston
Is that the addition, I mean, like finally the reemergence of silver. I mean, after years of nothing but brass and gold tones, I mean, I'm thrilled to see silver kind of coming back. And I think I get asked all the time about like, how is there a time to do it? And I think there's a time to mix metals all the time. You know, I don't think. I think the only way to really keep a classic interior is to mix those brass tones or gold tones with the silver tones, all the polished nickel, the chrome. And I just think it leads to such a more enduring interior.
- [06:37]
Michael Boudreau
That's interesting because, you know, we've been seeing with the revival of the 70s that people have been talking about a lot of bronze and brass, but now you're saying cooler. Do you think chrome will come back? Are we heading toward the 60s?
- [06:48]
Benjamin Johnston
I do. And I think you're going to see people mixing them. I think in the hands of really skillful designers, I think you're going to see a lot of mixed metals. And I think that that just again yields a more classic and fresh interior for years to come.
- [07:02]
Katie McCaffrey
We're also starting to see the mixed metals a lot in various plumbing lines and metal lines. But a lot of faucet companies are making mixed metal faucets. And I definitely agree with you. I think that the mixing of the metals is such so rich if done right. And seeing it included in actual fixtures just opens up a whole new world for us as designers. And I'm really enjoying working with those and seeing those.
- [07:27]
Danielle Kolding
And on that note, I'll also say losing that matte black that I feel like I'm for One very tired of for a warmer sort of like oil rubbed bronze done right. Where it's like that sort of off black in the most perfect, lived in way. And not everything's so stark and. And perfect. Right? More lived in finishes, more life reflected.
- [07:50]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, that brings up a question like, Ben, I'll ask you designers, I think people love patina sort of worn in, but, you know, clients are spending a lot of money and there's this thing in America, it's very common. You know, I want everything to be new and perfect. I'm spending money. So is it harder to sell your clients on these slightly worn, more comforting, cosseting sort of materials?
- [08:11]
Benjamin Johnston
I think it is. And I am sure Danielle and Katie have thoughts on this as well. But for me, it's interesting because I do think you have to. As a designer, part of our job is to educate our clients and to really romance what we are getting them to buy into. And one of the things that I think we have to romance is this notion that everything is not durable, that it actually things have patina and that things can actually age with time. And it's something that's beautiful and that it gives your house character and warmth. And it is something that I spend a lot of time talking about with my clients. Of course, I have clients that are like, absolutely not. No way am I interested in that. But then I have some clients that I do feel like get it and they understand, and I'm happy to push them in that direction.
- [08:53]
Michael Boudreau
And Danielle, would you say the same? Do you think that your clients are more willing to go with a slightly worn look? I mean, or a darker wood, you know, because they've spent so much Scandinavian blonde wood. And you mentioned darker woods, which I too have been seeing walnuts and darker brown woods and which I personally love. But I think it's. Is it a harder sell?
- [09:13]
Danielle Kolding
It really depends on the client. So I was plumbing shopping last week, and my client, she's not the one for patina, but we found really great finishes. And they have these pvd, you know, they never change sort of finishes. So you sort of have to thread the needle. Right. Like I kind of get my way because I have a prettier finish, but. But she also doesn't have to worry about cleaning or she's just not the one for fingerprints. Right. And like these beautiful. I mean, I would do it in my own house, but you sort of have to know your client. And a lot of them, maybe because of partially social media, there's a sort of expectation of perfection Right. You're seeing these perfectly finished, stylized rooms. And it's very different than the reality of having a home where it's really lived in and used.
- [10:02]
Michael Boudreau
Life is not. Not an Instagram post, you know.
- [10:04]
Danielle Kolding
Yes, it is not. And I think we all fight that battle every day. And to Ben's point, I really try to get that across. The beauty of the lived in moment, the beauty of how things change over time, and that, that's okay. But it's not as easy a sell anymore, I think, because of the pictures.
- [10:23]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, so we mentioned gray, but I want to switch this a little to the negative side. I want to know. And Ben, we'll start with you. What are you sick of? What do you really don't want to see? And maybe clients are still saying, I like this, showing you a picture from five years ago. And you know, please, if I see that one more time, what do we hope to be done with in 2024?
- [10:43]
Benjamin Johnston
Gosh, I think that for me, I don't know. I think, again, anything in its right place, you know, even down to color and color preferences, like, I think used. Well, I think anything can be really exciting and beautiful. And I think it's all in the skillful mix of things.
- [11:01]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But come on, answer the question.
- [11:04]
Benjamin Johnston
As an example, everybody is selling, oh, gray's over, gray's over, gray's over. Well, I actually think gray is gonna be. It's a neutral, it's a basic. And I think that people are gonna continue to have fun with it. There's this gorgeous Dadar wall covering behind me that's in this beautiful, like moire silk pattern. And it's just absolutely stunning. And. And nobody's gonna convince me otherwise that it's not beautiful and that I shouldn't love my gray moire silk walls. Cause I think they're amazing.
- [11:31]
Michael Boudreau
Well, listen, if you have gray by dadar, you're a winner. That's not a problem. But the problem is that, you know, and we've seen them all, and we've seen them in the stores, everything is in a shade of gray. I mean, that I think is deadening. But you're right, you banish. But, you know, it's all how you use it. As you were saying, appropriately, or as a touch or as a background, as a neutral or whatever.
- [11:52]
Katie McCaffrey
Completely. And I have to agree with Benjamin, if done artfully, I mean, gray has total staying power. I think it's just that, you know, it's been overused by RH and stuff like that. But it's like yeah, looking at your background, at your room that you're in, it's absolutely gorgeous. And I do think gray is a very livable color and very, very beautiful. I think again, it's just, you know, some people take a good thing and overuse it, but it never makes a well done, say gray interior look bad. It's like that will always look beautiful because it's well done.
- [12:27]
Michael Boudreau
Danielle, what about you? Something that you really, you know, I mean if you look at the real estate ads or whatever, every house has a white curved sofa. Usually boucle. I mean, what are you sick of?
- [12:38]
Danielle Kolding
So it's so funny to the point of sort of Katie and Benjamin. Every time you say something is out, you see an amazing version. So I've been on the no boucle, beating the drum and then metaphors comes to my office with the most beautiful boucle's you've ever seen. And there's boucle and there's boucle. The thing that I'm really tired of is this sort of fast furniture trend which, you know, for better or worse, it's where we live. I just so want people to just buy vintage, just go to consignment shop. Like I'm just so tired of this poorly made furniture that is just so. I'm just tired of that whole thing, you know, goes with fast fashion and the Internet has just really changed things for us. So I really, for case goods, please everybody, go to a consignment shop, go to a thrift shop, you know, redo it. Cherish, go to cherish, go to cherish. Go to thing. Buy things that have good bones, things with longevity. We just have so much of this in our business and I hope we could just be more responsible in terms of like using what we already have and reusing.
- [13:43]
Katie McCaffrey
Cheers to that.
- [13:44]
Benjamin Johnston
Danielle. Also talk about fast fashion. The truth is, is if you have a client who's concerned about lead times and concerned about things, talk about the fastest thing as something that already exists. So recycling and doing all that is the fastest thing that we could provide for our clients. And as you say, it's better quality than a lot of the stuff that they could be purchasing.
- [14:05]
Michael Boudreau
And sustainability is something that we keep hearing is going to become important and hopefully it will be in 2024 and it's a serious issue. So maybe get that message out of shop. Vintage and you know, it gives you something more unique. We're talking about, you know, rh the sort of standard kind of spaces that we see all the time and that's really a way to avoid that and go way beyond that. Not that you don't want to buy a couple of pieces or something that are more standard or simple, but then to bring distinction. So I want to talk a little more seriously now about the year ahead in terms of your own businesses, because as we all know, you know, the real estate market is really slowed down. There's a real shortage of inventory because of the higher mortgage rates. People aren't moving. They don't want to give up their low mortgage rates. And when people don't move and when apartments and houses don't sell, the design business suffers. So I wanted to get a sense from each of you of a. Have you started to feel that already? Are you thinking ahead? Do you think it might happen? Are you? I hope for all three of you this is true, that you're immune to that. You think about your staffing. So, Katie, how about you? What's the situation for you?
- [15:13]
Katie McCaffrey
Well, I'm always trying to keep an eye on the future and what's happening on the horizon. We have a really small team, and we've all been working together for so many years, and we have a lot of clients that we've been working with for many years. And. And what we've been noticing is every time we might get a little bit nervous, say Covid was happening, and it always ends up surprising us in that, no, we stay really busy. We have sort of generations of family members whose homes we started 20 years ago, and they're ready for a refresh or say they've gotten a vacation home or even recently, we've been experiencing some of our clients from 20 years ago. Their kids are now starting out, and they have houses of their own that they're purchasing of families that they're starting. So we're doing their homes now as well. So we have a wonderful, almost insurance policy of just having these wonderful clients that have stuck with us and continue to use us. So I think being a smaller team has its benefits in that these fluctuations don't affect us as much as maybe a bigger firm might. So we don't really experience much of a slowdown as of yet. So we've been lucky.
- [16:22]
Michael Boudreau
And, Danielle, you have not been in business 20 years. So how are you thinking about the year ahead?
- [16:28]
Danielle Kolding
Well, I've been in business since 07 and already experienced 08, which is a good start.
- [16:35]
Michael Boudreau
Right?
- [16:36]
Katie McCaffrey
That was a tough one.
- [16:37]
Michael Boudreau
And Covid.
- [16:38]
Danielle Kolding
And Covid and various other hiccups where, you know, and we're in the financial sort of center. So the minute people get a notion of any slowdown there are, brakes are pulled. I will say it's been pretty consistent. I've noticed a bit of a slowdown. I think most of the designers in New York who I speak to, it's not that we don't have work, it's just we got into this sort of manic pace during COVID because it was like everybody at once. I mean, I had never had so many inquiries that turned into projects all at one time. So I think we're sort of settling back into a more. More normal pace where we're not as crazy. And that can be a little jarring. Right. Cause we might have ramped up. I too have a pretty small team, so thus far it's been okay. And I have found ways to do other types of projects. You mentioned Stanford. I'm doing a project at Stanford right now doing like a community center, which just kind of adds another layer to what I'm doing. I do some office projects here and there. So it's just sort of about like keeping it flowing, if you know what I mean. It may not be the exact same scale, but we're always busy. You know, even in my slow time, there's never not something to do.
- [17:54]
Michael Boudreau
And how big is your team?
- [17:56]
Danielle Kolding
So our team is four now.
- [17:58]
Michael Boudreau
Small four. And Katie, how many in your team?
- [18:01]
Katie McCaffrey
We have six total.
- [18:03]
Michael Boudreau
Okay.
- [18:04]
Katie McCaffrey
So yeah, around the same size.
- [18:05]
Michael Boudreau
Okay. And Ben, how many on your team?
- [18:09]
Benjamin Johnston
We're a team of 20, but it's also. Yeah, it's larger. But we are also half architecture, half interiors. And to both Danielle's and Katie's points, I mean, it's interesting. Part of every running a good practice is also again, the diversity and the mix of the projects that you have. And so for instance, because we do ground up construction and we're working on a lot of projects that have very long lead times and long development cycles. So it just keeps us busy. Even if maybe on the decoration front we may not be as busy, but we're really busy on the architecture and an interior design front. So it just depends. And I also think so much of this is a regional question. I'm in Houston, and Houston learned its lesson when Enron collapsed years ago. And it has become an extremely diversified economy. So there's not one sector that seems to rule over all other sectors. So our clients seem relatively stable and from that regard, and I feel very thankful. That's not obviously true across the country, but we've been in a good place to weather ups and downs in the market. But I would just say again, it's a regional issue. And I also think it's depends on the kind of work that you and your office provide.
- [19:24]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah. But I do think there's going to be a rough year ahead. I mean, mortgage rates are still very high. Affordable housing is in short supply. Housing in general is in short supply at any price point is in really short supply. So it's going to be interesting. But I think what one of the things that you all mentioned was, you know, you don't have huge teams and that's a help because as I can personally attest, when you have to lay people off, it's a really awful thing. And I remember from the 20089 showdown, a designer said to me, things started picking up pretty fairly soon after that. But he said, you know, I'm really hesitant to staff up again because it was so traumatic to have to lay people off, you know.
- [20:07]
Danielle Kolding
Hi everybody.
- [20:08]
Katie McCaffrey
Thanks for tuning in.
- [20:09]
Danielle Kolding
I hope you're enjoying our podcast. My name is Ana Brockway and I'm the co founder and president of Cherish. If you're a designer who's struggling with long lead times from suppliers and increasingly impatient clients, now is the time to shop with us. Our vintage antique and one of a kind inventory is ready to ship right now. To learn more, visit cherish.com, that's C-H-A-I-R-I-S-H.com and now back to the show.
- [20:37]
Michael Boudreau
So I want to talk about technology a little because certainly been in the news with Sam Altman and all that artificial intelligence, AI and all that. But are there things that you have been looking at? Have you changed how your office works, your team works? I mean, obviously Zoom had a big impact during COVID and that changed a lot of things. But are there programs or. I'm not a designer, so I don't know drawing programs that you want to use? Are you thinking about using AI? Do you communicate with your clients differently? Who wants to weigh in first?
- [21:10]
Danielle Kolding
I can go.
- [21:11]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, thank you, Danielle.
- [21:13]
Danielle Kolding
I'm not sure if I'm the least, but I'm definitely a Luddite in this category, happily, like my books. But no, we've been really. So it has been a bit slower for us. So my answer to that is really looking at our systems, right? How do we do things? How are we communicating? Where are we losing time, where are we repeating work? That kind of thing. And so we've worked through a few different platforms to try to get a system In Place Place Slack is what we use for internal communications. At one point we had another program, but Slack seems to be really good in terms of like communicating about specific projects. We've been using things like Canva a lot more for like presentations and things like that, which I had never really used before, but seems pretty user friendly. I mean, we do design boards, we do a lot that we send to our client. Like, we don't always do very traditional meetings anymore in the same way. And then we've been sort of also exploring other platforms which can make the process a little more automated with the client. So even to go back to your other point about the slowdown, we've really been thinking about, like, how can we sort of expand. Right. Like, we have a very traditional business that has functioned in this way for a very long time and a lot of it is outdated. I mean, I was using a fax machine up until maybe like eight years ago. It's not that long. We were faxing POS not that long ago, which sounds crazy, but it's true. We're pretty slow as an industry kind of to adapt. So we've been trying to look at other platforms. I've looked at design files we've been looking at and some of the other ones that really, you know, you're sort of able to send boards and get answers from clients. I have more and more younger clients. And so my sort of standard way of doing things with real presentations in person, of course that happens, but there are like regular everyday sort of interactions that need to be a little bit more computer oriented. So we're looking at all of those things.
- [23:16]
Michael Boudreau
Great. And Katie, what about your office?
- [23:18]
Katie McCaffrey
Yeah, well, I'm super fascinated by the use of AI in creating renderings. I'm seeing some really beautiful renderings that are AI generated these days. And so we're looking into that and how we can harness that technology to create renderings which are so time consuming. And again, being a small team, it's something we generally will outsource because we need to keep our team running on some of the more immediate items. So having AI being able to outsource it via AI is something I'm super excited about. So we, we're trying to study that and see, you know, how that works. And so we're still, again, just learning about it and how we can harness that. I totally agree with Danielle too. And with the younger clientele and busy executives being able to create digital presentation boards, some of us, I might be dating myself, but, you know, we go back to the day of using foam board and glue guns and staying up all night creating these things. And it's so nice to now be able to make digital mood boards presentations that we can just fire off via email or send a Dropbox link and have all the elements of the room in there so the client can easily understand it. And to be able to fire that off digitally is a wonderful tool. So we use Keynote for that. And Canva is also, I agree, it's a really great program. So those are the things that we're pretty excited about. Of course, Pinterest is always something that we rely on so heavily to, you know, source and keep things. You know, it cuts down on paper. I think we can all remember when we had big bins full of tear sheets and whatnot. So it's nice to be able to have that digitally and all that clutter and fluff of paperwork and printers and all that stuff streamlined a bit. So that's kind of where we're at with the technology.
- [25:13]
Michael Boudreau
And Ben, what about you? How does your systems operate? Because you have a bigger staff, so that's, you know, communication is always hard. The bigger the staff, the harder it is.
- [25:22]
Benjamin Johnston
I mean, I think we, you know, much like I think a lot of people, I mean, we're pretty basic when it comes to the Outlook, Microsoft Outlook for most of our communications. From an architecture standpoint, we're very much invested in AutoCAD. It's just what our team has the greatest precision over, the development of architectural drawings. With that program, our interior designers really use a ton of Photoshop, part of the Adobe suite. I think we use every single one of their programs. So they're kind of the backbone of our technology needs from a standpoint of AI. You know, it's interesting to build on what some of you were saying. You know, for us, we mainly use AI from a. As a communication tool. So it's really interesting for me because I have a tendency to write very lengthy emails that are very proper and take a lot of time. An effort for me to streamline all the language and get it to all the common rules and all the punctuation and everything. And I've really enjoyed using ChatGPT from the standpoint that I can basically plug in a few sentences and ask it to rewrite my copy. And it rewrites it so beautifully better than probably I did. And not only that, and more efficiently where it cuts down on a lot of the flowery language that I would use that might be inefficient and communication. So I'VE been using that and it's been a huge time saver for me and my team.
- [26:43]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, that's great to hear, because I read about AI and my eyes sort of glaze over and I think the robots are coming to take over my job, you know, so it's really good to know that you're already using that and that it's already, at this point, that useful. I mean, God knows it's going to get more developed as we go along. And now.
- [26:59]
Benjamin Johnston
Well, Michael is interesting. I mean, so obviously, just like Katie was mentioning on Instagram, there's such a plethora of these AI generated interiors. And there are some Instagrams, like East meets West, I think, interiors. Just some really gobsmackingly beautiful interiors and architecture. And we have clients who, like, push over an inspiration image that they saw that was AI. And it's interesting because some of my internal team members have been like, you know, should we be worried about our job, about the fact that we are getting AI renderings as inspiration images? And the truth is, is that what I've told them, and I do believe this to be true, is although those are wonderfully inspiring images and have value from an inspiration standpoint, AI cannot provide the service that we as a design firm provide and the attention to detail and the customer service that we provide. So I don't think even as we, as Katie was mentioning, using it for some inspiration and having a conversation about what it is that AI generated, it's also, again, just reassuring for me that it doesn't have that personal touch that I think our clients expect in our luxury industry. So, you know, the truth is, I'm happy to have it, but I'm also happy to not be worried about it.
- [28:18]
Katie McCaffrey
Well said. Well said.
- [28:20]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, true. And, you know, it's a big step from, you know, finding a beautiful fabric that you see online somewhere and then actually turning that into drapes or sofa upholstery. I mean, there's a lot of steps in between there. So I think you guys don't have to worry in that sense about being replaced at the moment. But it's so interesting to me how I think there are some jobs that will probably be fewer people doing them because of AI, But I don't think, you know, providing inspiration and like you were saying, educating your clients and creating the lives that they want to lead, I don't think you need to worry about that to that extent. But I do want to bring up, and we talked about Instagram just now, social media, because God knows, pre AI I would say social media was probably the biggest change to the design industry, even when the Instagram images were actual places as opposed to AI generated places. But it had a huge impact. And I want to get a sense from all of you how you use social media. Will you be using more of it? Are you going onto TikTok, which apparently taking over the world? How do you see that? You know, practically every designer I know has said they've gotten clients by Instagram. Do you think that's going to continue? Are your websites important still? Do you update them? How do you look at this ever changing world of social media? Daniel, why don't we start with you?
- [29:39]
Danielle Kolding
So, unsurprisingly, I have a somewhat fraught relationship. I'm the person in the 90s who didn't want the cell phone. Why would I want them to reach me?
- [29:51]
Michael Boudreau
I know. I'm with you. I'm with you. Danielle.
- [29:53]
Danielle Kolding
I know.
- [29:53]
Katie McCaffrey
Michael.
- [29:54]
Danielle Kolding
I know. I'm preaching to the choir. No, but I'm starting. I will say I really understand the value of it for putting out a service and putting out something artistic and your vision. And so I've really made friends with Instagram from that perspective. I think I've just sort of eliminated the personal part, which didn't feel as comfortable for me, and just really made it a business tool. And that has helped me, you know, and it's also like a great place for inspiration. Right. It's a great place to find out about other designers for sure. Products. It's amazing in that way. Right. I'm constantly learning about new products and so I don't know, I think it's really important. I think it's important for our voices. I think it's important for it to be somewhat of a controlled message and really representative of what you want to put out in the world. I do think the websites are also important, important, and I think they should somewhat align. I actually recently brought someone in who's more branding focused, which I had never done before. I'd had straight design team. And so it's been very interesting to really think of what I'm building from this sort of outside lens. And so she's helped me sort of make friends with social media and understand that it's sort of a bigger picture and I can sort of get with that. Right. It's sort of like, you know, if I were to do my book, what would it look like? And that helps me to feel more comfortable about it and actually enjoy it.
- [31:22]
Michael Boudreau
Right. And Katie, what about you?
- [31:23]
Katie McCaffrey
I'm really Enjoying Instagram as well. I think it is such a huge tool right now. I'm curious as to what the future will bring as like what will be the next Instagram. But it is, it's hugely important with what we do and getting our voice out there, giving potential clients a taste of who we are and what our voice is. So in that regard, I definitely think Instagram is huge. I'm very curious if the rest of you use TikTok. We're not on TikTok currently and I'm wondering if either of you guys use TikTok.
- [31:55]
Benjamin Johnston
Ben, for me, Instagram gives you a lot of videos and reels that are actually a product of TikTok that somehow fed through your reels to you. So I think I see TikTok when I'm watching crazy cat videos on an endless loop. But the truth is, is that I don't have a TikTok account and I'm not posting on TikTok. But I do think we are seeing that through our Instagram feeds. But I will say that for me, going back to its relevancy, you know, my clientele is largely older and the truth is, is that they really have no interest in TikTok. They don't care, they're not on it. They are lucky if they have Facebook and Instagram and they're being very progressive in that way. But for the most part, a lot of them are not on TikTok or fascinated with TikTok. So I just don't think it's. I think every social media tool has its ideal user. Instagram was really made for people in the visual arts and the creative arts and I think, and also in the service industry. So people like us as designers, I think it's the perfect tool, custom made to get our message across to potential clientele. So I have to say I think it's still very relevant and I do get clients off of Instagram and I do think it's important that you invest the time and the energy into developing a strong and robust and authentic representation of your work and your services.
- [33:21]
Danielle Kolding
And can I say one more thing? One thing that I've really noticed about the change in Instagram is that it used to just be this sort of static, really pretty picture and now it's becoming more about process. The videos that do really well are the installation of the countertop. It's things that move and show people actually this sort of how to. So it is interesting because I agree with Benjamin. I don't think it's a direct client thing. All of the time. But it potentially in our business can lead to other things. Right. And other relationships, other branding possibilities. And I'm constantly sort of thinking in those ways how to sort of have a more robust business that cannot just only be client centered.
- [34:06]
Katie McCaffrey
I also have to add one other quick thing, is that the importance of a website, I think, is still very relevant. Having a really beautiful website that functions well, that leads your potential clients in, is huge. And I also think there's sometimes when you have a project that you photographed, you can't share it on social media yet, but you can maybe have a post private link on your website so that potential clients or people who are interested can access some of these images or some of these projects that you haven't yet been able to show off on social media. So website is still super, super, super important.
- [34:43]
Benjamin Johnston
Can I also jump in, Katie, on that note? One of my favorite things about Instagram is how it has completely shifted the power dynamic between publishing publishers of all kinds. You know, it used to be that if you were not one of the best friends of the editor, your images really didn't get out into the world, and you might be.
- [35:03]
Michael Boudreau
I have a lot of best friends, Ben, just so you know. A lot of best friends. I understand. But you're right, it's democratized the process.
- [35:10]
Benjamin Johnston
It's amazing. And I just love the fact that it has allowed so many more diverse voices to enter into the conversation about design. And it's not only its relevancy, but it's also authenticity. And I love the fact that now magazines are coming to me looking for projects as opposed to where I would beg and beg and plead to see if they would publish one of the projects I had sent them. So, you know, it's been a really wonderful thing, I think, for all designers across the board right now.
- [35:39]
Michael Boudreau
Danielle, you had mentioned process videos, because, you know, Instagram also is getting more into videos between stories and reels or, you know, or put it on TikTok. So. And to your point about showing your work, Benjamin, would any of you, in the coming year, do you plan to, like, go to a project that's completed and, like, do a little video tour? Is that something you have done or are considering doing?
- [36:00]
Benjamin Johnston
We do them all the time.
- [36:02]
Michael Boudreau
You do? Okay. And clients don't mind so far?
- [36:05]
Benjamin Johnston
No. We ask permission, by the way.
- [36:08]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, of course. Yeah. I would assume you're not invading your clients homes unannounced with the camera crew or whatever. Okay. Or even your iPhone. Okay. Danielle, what about you?
- [36:18]
Danielle Kolding
Yeah, that is the Plan. And I think the plan, even before the final. It's during the process. Right. Like the decision making. You know, what are you thinking when you're hanging art or when you're styling a bookcase this way? What is the. You know, it's something that comes so automatically to me after so many years that it's just sort of a given. And so it's another thing to now learn how to speak about it. Right. And to show your work. Right. But I think it's what brings people in, you know, it really connects them to you. It makes them know this is not some unattainable thing.
- [36:49]
Michael Boudreau
It's a process.
- [36:50]
Danielle Kolding
It's a process and it's also something like you can do too. And I think that's beautiful. Like, I think more people should know that they have that power within their lives.
- [36:59]
Michael Boudreau
And Katie, do you do little videos of your projects?
- [37:01]
Katie McCaffrey
I try to, yeah. And I'm trying to do more and more. I'm trying to improve on that. We've been doing a little bit here and there, but we're realizing how wonderful videos are as far as like drawing people in and showing a little bit of that behind the scenes. You know, how do you work your way through a design puzzle or, you know, various things that we encounter on a day to day basis. They're actually super interesting to our clients or potential clients or just our audience in general. How do you pick the right color or how do you hang art? It's wonderful to be able to share that process. And I agree with Danielle. It's something that we do all the time and we just don't think about it because it's second nature to us. But people really want in on what your thoughts are as you navigate through some of these design puzzles. So video is a wonderful way to illustrate that.
- [37:53]
Michael Boudreau
Which leads to my next question, though. It's like you were saying, Danielle, you know, not just to do what you do, but to articulate and explain how you do. And creating videos and posting it takes a lot more time. So maybe things are slowing down. You'll have a little more time. But are you going to hire somebody else? I mean, Danielle, you said you had a new branding person, but Katie, have you do hire somebody, either on a freelance or a staff basis to help you do your social media accounts to make the videos. Is that something you've had to deal with?
- [38:20]
Katie McCaffrey
You know, we have a wonderful PR firm that we work with, but no, we tend to do the videos and Instagram content. You know, we create that ourselves internally because we think, well, who better tell the tale, you know, than the personal voice? Our team, you know, we're there in the field, working away. It's like, well, let's document this. Let's remember to pull out the camera and run the video of us working through it again. It's something that for so long, it was just like, let's just go in there, heads down and work through this. But now we're realizing the importance of, like, wait, let's capture this. Let's share this with the world. And so that's fun. It's really been fun.
- [38:59]
Michael Boudreau
But like you said, you have to remember.
- [39:00]
Katie McCaffrey
You have to remember to do it.
- [39:02]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, you have to remember. You have to think about it. So, Ben, do you have a specific person on your team that is in charge of that? The social media?
- [39:10]
Benjamin Johnston
I really put the on earth work on everybody. So I tell everybody they're responsible for when we go to job sites for capturing video, and then I have them send it all in to our social media team, and they really work on putting the videos together and editing them and then posting them. Which, you know, for me, I'm never in the mindset of, like, we've gotta capture this. So I try to really deputize everyone on my team to be responsible. So that's one thing. The other thing I was just gonna say is that for me, one of the best tips that I can give other designers is the notion of if you're doing photography in the house of a project, it is so convenient to have, while the staging is still all in place, to have a videographer come in and. Or somebody on your team come in and film content in the house while everything looks picture perfect. And it just honestly, it gives you content that you can add to your website, add to your Instagram, add to any account that you have. And I just think it is such a good use of your funds that you've invested in the shoot already.
- [40:12]
Michael Boudreau
Right. And that gives you another outlet to show it as well. You know, amortize the cost, as you're saying. Okay, so I want to get one sort of last subject that I find interesting and I think has changed. And we touched on this with Instagram, again, because Instagram is so central. But sourcing and shopping, how do you think seeing that moving ahead? Because, you know, during COVID no one could go anywhere, and everybody had to buy everything basically online and then wait 16, 18, 20 months for delivery. But now we can travel again. We still have the Internet. We still have all these sites cherished and all these sites to buy things. And I would think that one of the great pleasures of your jobs was that you get to go out and spend other people's money. To me, that's like, oh, that would be. Be so much fun. So how do you see that? Do you plan to travel more in the year ahead? Do you see yourselves going to design fairs, antique shows? Are you going to go travel with clients? Are you still going to buy a lot of stuff online? How do you see your sourcing changing in the year ahead? Danielle, let's start with you.
- [41:19]
Danielle Kolding
So I'm loving being back out there, for sure. Travel is a huge part of my year ahead, and there's just nothing like that sort of visceral experience. Even when I get kind of stuck on a project, you know, I'm sort of like, in the loop because you can kind of forget everything's so accessible now. You kind of forget that, like, you need to go out. And sometimes I'll just go out for that, just to, like, get the creative juices flowing. I always go to Paris every year for deco off, so definitely doing that. And hopefully Milan this year. And just as much as I can get in, because for most of us, travel is that number one sort of source of inspiration and where you just see different color combinations and materials used in interesting ways, and it just really opens your mind. But the Internet isn't going away. We do luckily have sites like Cherish, where we can get stuff from all over. We can get vintage to brand new things. So that is not going away. I think that's a steady diet. But we need. I certainly need that time out of the office.
- [42:22]
Michael Boudreau
And Ben, what about you? Where do you go for shopping and for just inspiration?
- [42:25]
Benjamin Johnston
So, like, Danielle, I love going to all the design epicenters from New York to Paris to Milan. And I think that that's an incredible opportunity for any designers that have that ability to travel to those countries and locations. But I think also for a lot of American designers, I think we would be remiss if we don't mention the High Point market. It's obviously twice a year in High Point, North Carolina. And it is an incredible showcase of not just domestic manufacturers, but also obviously foreign ones as well. And I just think you can see more product in three days than you can really anywhere. So I just think it's an incredible resource. And I also think it's for those of us who don't have the ability to go on, you know, vacations in other countries. The fact that it's so Close. And that it is also so affordable is also a wonderful way for designers to plug in.
- [43:19]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah. And I do think High Point has become much more important over the last 10 years or so, and they're doing a really good job. And Katie, what about you? I mean, and here's another question. Do you still go to design showrooms? Do you know, I mean, in terms of, for sourcing?
- [43:34]
Katie McCaffrey
Absolutely. And I agree with Danielle. It's a way wonderful way to sort of jog your brain and see some new, unexpected things. Going to the design center is huge, and I love doing it. Sometimes just going in with no particular agenda is sometimes the best because I kind of laser focus most of the time on what I'm there to source and whatnot. But a few days ago, we were there just for a vendor presentation and it was so wonderful because I wasn't looking for anything in particular. And just browsing the showrooms and going back in with an open mind was really exciting and got me super inspired. So I loved that. And I do agree travel, going to places where you can have a little bit of that serendipity, you find something that just speaks to you or, oh, that's the perfect thing for my client. That's it. That's it. And you can just buy it right then and there and ship it home. It's a wonderful thing and it allows things to kind of fall into your lap that maybe you weren't necessarily looking for just that wonderful, special piece that kind of takes you by surprise. And I just love that element. So. And I think there's no other way than to go out there and experiencing things in person. And going to these design fairs, art fairs, Art Basel is a big one for me. I love always finding some new artists that I had never heard of before. Find that perfect piece for a client. So they just kind of happen and it's magic.
- [45:04]
Danielle Kolding
So the other thing that I think is important is sort of like small town America, like off the beaten path places. Because, you know, I was just in Rochester for a wedding, stumbled on this little place and I found like five things for a little country house where it was like a random little piece of art for a corner. You know, all of those things just make. We all sort of say it right to the end. But like, they make it unique, they make it personal. It's the little wonky things that make the spaces fun. And in my travels in the US in random places there, like, I went to Louisville. Louisville has amazing antiques and like all of these old mantles and like, incredible, because the car industry was based there, so there were all these millionaires there who knew. I had no idea. New Orleans, you know, there's just so much in our backyard. And I'm sort of discovering that this year because I am the first to cross the Atlantic and, you know, the last to kind of look at my own backyard. And we haven't been traveling as much, so I've been sort of forced to do it. And it's been amazing because there are gems everywhere and that's what's great about spending other people's money.
- [46:12]
Benjamin Johnston
Well, and I wanted to chime in on that because I think one of the things that again, as we are selling our clients on the things that we're bringing into their homes, I always call it like a well traveled interior. You're bringing in these pieces that are from all over the world. And there's something really romantic about that notion. And as designers, we're much more effective about selling something when we really, truly are excited and believe in the product that we are showcasing or we've selected for our client. So to have these fun stories as a backdrop to our presentation, it just is so much more engaging.
- [46:45]
Michael Boudreau
So I'm gonna. One last question. I wanna get a idea from each of you what you hope will happen in 2024. And I'm not talking about world peace, though God knows we need that and all of that, but just in terms of your businesses or your own vision, or like a project, you wish somebody would come to you and say, I want you to design this for me. What is something you would really hope for in 2024? Katie, let's start with you.
- [47:10]
Katie McCaffrey
That's such a good question. I would always just hope to keep busy and have a wonderful variety in projects. I love doing different things from like wineries to restaurants to vacation homes are always a wonderful thing. So just having the opportunity to continue to make clients happy, can't say that any one particular thing jumps out to me other than just keep doing what we do and making clients happy and making their homes wonderful places that excite them every day.
- [47:44]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, Ben, what about you?
- [47:45]
Benjamin Johnston
Touching on what both Danielle and Katie have said, you know, the last three years was like the most bonkers, insane, complete, like no work life balance whatsoever. I mean, it was all work. So, you know, the truth is, is that for 2024, you know, I am just hoping to again bring more life into that. I think it's a good year to do it. I'm excited about that. That's what I'm looking forward to the most is trying to get some balance back in here.
- [48:16]
Katie McCaffrey
Good for you.
- [48:16]
Michael Boudreau
Terrific. And Danielle, you get the last word here.
- [48:20]
Danielle Kolding
So my hope for 2024 is just really amazing collaborations with clients. I too am into slowing down the whole process. I like building interiors. Over time, I hope to meet more clients who agree with me. And I think the biggest thing for me is this a return to real craftsmanship. Sort of going off of my fast furniture rant. This return to the art of what we do, the artisanship, we sorely need it. And that goes into slowing down the whole process, doing things of quality that take time, that yield beautiful results.
- [48:57]
Michael Boudreau
Well, I can't thank you, my wonderful guests enough. I think you guys have provided so many ideas and insights that I think you're going to have every designer who listens to this podcast have a better 2024. And I wish all of you a great new year and design ahead. So I want to thank Katie McCaffrey, Benjamin Johnston and Danielle Kolding, and thank everyone for listening to the Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was recently voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please eat. Email us@podcasterish.com the Cherish podcast is produced by Brittner Muller and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.