Has Social Media Replaced PR?

Summary

The Chairish Podcast: Episode Summary - "Has Social Media Replaced PR?"

Hosted by Michael Boudreau of Chairish Inc., the latest episode titled "Has Social Media Replaced PR?" delves into the evolving landscape of public relations within the interior design industry. Featuring industry experts Sarah Burningham, Roxanne Hannah, and Sarah Boyd, the discussion explores the interplay between traditional PR strategies and the burgeoning influence of social media platforms.

---

1. The Shifting Dynamics of PR and Social Media

Michael Boudreau opens the conversation by addressing the misconception that social media has rendered PR obsolete for designers. He emphasizes that while social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok allow designers to showcase their work instantly, the sheer volume of content makes it challenging to stand out.

Notable Quote:

Sarah Boyd (04:42): "You're constantly evolving and making sure that your job is valued and you're proving yourself to your client that you are helping grow their business."

2. The Integral Role of Photography and Branding

Both Sarah Burningham and Roxanne Hannah highlight the paramount importance of high-quality photography as the cornerstone of a designer's brand presence. Roxanne stresses the need for interconnected branding elements, stating that a website serves as "ground control for your entire brand" (05:15).

Notable Quote:

Roxanne Hannah (05:15): "Your website is basically ground control for your entire brand and everything goes around it."

3. The Enduring Value of Print Publications

Contrary to the belief that print media is declining, Sarah Burningham asserts that print still holds significant weight in the industry. She explains that appearing in reputable print magazines can enhance a designer's credibility and reach a wider audience.

Notable Quote:

Sarah Burningham (24:05): "Print is not dead. My clients all still want print because there's still power there."

4. Integrating PR with Digital Strategies

The discussion underscores that effective PR now necessitates a blend of traditional methods and digital strategies. Sarah Boyd emphasizes that PR professionals must be involved from the project's inception, managing the designer's image across multiple platforms.

Notable Quote:

Sarah Boyd (16:43): "The role of the PR person has really changed. Your jobs are much more complicated than they used to be."

5. Navigating Brand Collaborations and Expansions

Roxanne Hannah outlines her approach to working with brands, which includes brand discovery, messaging, and visual system updates. She highlights the importance of aligning brand strategies with evolving market trends and digital tools.

Notable Quote:

Roxanne Hannah (22:15): "We start with brand discovery and then move into brand messaging, adjusting the founder story or the brand's bio."

6. Strategic Advice for Emerging Designers

The experts offer actionable advice for young designers aiming to expand their clientele:

• Invest in Professional Photography: Essential for showcasing work effectively.

  Sarah Boyd (40:00):

  "Finish the project, have it professionally photographed, and own the rights to that photography."

• Develop a Cohesive Brand Identity: Every touchpoint, from business cards to online presence, should reflect the designer's unique style and professionalism.

  Sarah Burningham (40:41):

  "Ensure that every single thing you're putting out represents your work and maintains consistency."

• Leverage Regional Opportunities: Focusing on local markets and publications can significantly enhance visibility and client acquisition.

  Sarah Burningham (28:00):

  "Regional is so important... especially if you're wanting to work in a different market."

7. The Future of PR in the Digital Age

Conclusively, the panel agrees that PR has not been supplanted by social media but has instead evolved to become more multidimensional. Effective PR now integrates social media strategies, traditional media relations, and personalized branding to navigate the competitive landscape of interior design.

Notable Quote:

Michael Boudreau (43:23): "Social media, if anything, has certainly not replaced PR. It's actually made PR more crucial and it has really expanded your roles."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Synergy Between PR and Social Media: Both tools are essential and complementary rather than mutually exclusive.

• Photography as a Core Asset: High-quality, professional images are vital for both online and offline presence.

• Print Still Matters: Traditional media maintains its influence and should be part of a comprehensive PR strategy.

• Holistic Branding: Consistency across all brand elements reinforces a designer's identity and attracts the right clientele.

• Local Focus: Building a strong presence in regional markets can serve as a foundation for broader expansion.

Conclusion:

The episode reinforces the notion that in today's fast-paced digital environment, PR professionals play a pivotal role in guiding designers through the complexities of brand management and media relations. By blending traditional PR techniques with modern digital strategies, designers can effectively enhance their visibility, attract high-quality clients, and sustain long-term success in the interior design industry.

Transcript

[Michael Boudreau]

This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry at a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change. Today's episode is brought to you by Marburger, the legendary entertainer antique show in Round Top, Texas. No other show in the world is like Marburger. And there's good news for interior designers. It's now coming to Atlanta from July 16th through the 20th, so don't miss out. Get your tickets today. Go to marburgeratlanta.com to get complimentary tickets to the show. That's M A R B U R g e r atlanta.com and now onto the show. How does a designer become known? How does he or she get their work seen? Attract new clients, find an audience for new products? The old days of sending scouting shots to a magazine and waiting months or sending a press release announcing a new fabric or furniture design are long gone. Thanks to social media, every designer can put their work out into the world. But amid the resulting daily flood of content, how does a designer become known? I have with me today three professionals who have navigated the upheavals in the worlds of online and print media and have successfully guided their clients in everything from creating websites and TikTok videos to launching the publication of major books. After an extensive career in book publishing, Sarah Burningham opened her firm, Little bird Publicity, in 2009. She has since worked with an extensive array of architects and designers, including Gil Schaeffer, Peter Panoyer, Brian McCarthy, Tammy Conner, Robert a.m. stern Architects, and Ben. Hello, Sarah.

[Sarah Burningham]

Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me.

[Michael Boudreau]

So glad you're here. Roxanne Hannah launched Hannah Creative Company in 2017 after two decades in fashion and interior design. Her firm works with designers in a range of areas to increase visibility, from creating branding identity to overseeing website design and function. Among the many designers she has worked with are Ashton Leandro, Valerie Campbell, Peter Dunham, and Sean Anderson. Hello, Roxanne.

[Roxanne Hannah]

Hi. Thanks for having me.

[Michael Boudreau]

Thank you. Sarah Boyd appeared on the Cherished podcast four years ago to talk about pr, and she is back because so much has changed since then. Sarah worked at the agency's laforce and Stevens and HL Group before heading up public relations for Calvin Klein Home. In 2018, she launched her own company, Sarah Boyd Company, which has clients including designers Mark Cunningham and Nina Farmer, as well as brands such as Waterworks and Progress Line. Welcome back, Sarah.

[Sarah Boyd]

Thank you, Michael. It's fun to be here.

[Michael Boudreau]

So, as I was saying, so much has changed, even since we did the last four years, and believe me, tons has changed since I was in the media business and was editing a magazine. So I wanted to get a sense. One of the things that people I've heard said is that designers don't need pr. People, social media, Instagram, just put your work out there, everything is going to be sunny. You don't have to spend any money. Your life will be great. Now, I know this isn't true, so I'd love to get a sense. Let's start with you, Ms. Boyd. This is the first episode, by the way. We have two guests with the same first name, so I'm gonna refer to her as Ms. Boyd and Ms. Burningham. So, Ms. Boyd, that sounds so formal. Tell me, what's changed, even since we did our last recording together four years ago, has social media become more prominent, Less prominent?

[Sarah Boyd]

I think that because of after we recorded four years ago, obviously the world significantly changed. Right. So I think that that showed us the capabilities of going live on Instagram, the importance of digital, and that you can really reach a global audience through these microphones, through Instagram Live. So that dramatically changed the world. But then, of course, at the same time, there's less shelter publications, whether they could close completely or they just went down to six publications a year versus 12. Right? So the world has changed dramatically. And so our jobs, I think, have as well. And we've been. I don't think that it's been a struggle to change with it. It's just you're constantly sort of evolving and making sure that your job is valued and you're proving yourself to your client that you are helping grow their business and that you are still partnering with them in a meaningful way.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Roxanne, I wanted to ask you because your firm isn't really a PR firm, but it's certainly PR adjacent, and the fact that you do branding, identity and websites. Now, I remember asking years ago, are websites still important? Because with all of Instagram, TikTok, all of that videos, is the website still important? But clearly you must feel that it is. So I'd love you to talk about how your firm works with designers and how you make them a stronger presence in the marketplace, whether for clients or to sell products.

[Roxanne Hannah]

I would say that we, unlike a lot of other agencies, either do just website and branding or social media and pr. We combine website branding and social media and E commerce because we see there's a real importance now to have them interconnected as a company grows. So your website is basically ground control for your entire brand and everything goes around it. So whether you have you're collecting emails from email campaigns, or you're driving traffic through Pinterest and Instagram and also having a beautiful portfolio of work to express yourself in your company, I mean, I think our websites are everything for the future and for building your brand now.

[Michael Boudreau]

Ms. Burningham, it sounds so formal. I feel like I'm teaching.

[Sarah Burningham]

I know, it really does.

[Michael Boudreau]

But, Ms. Burningham, you work with a lot of designers, and one of the things that you focus on for many of them, I know you do lots of things, is books, which in this age of social media and everything being so instant, I find it very fascinating how books have become, if anything, more central to so many designers work. So I'd love you to talk a little about that.

[Sarah Burningham]

Well, I am a book lover. I mean, I know you said this at the beginning, but I started my career in book publishing, and not only do I love reading, but I love the physical object of a book and especially a beautiful book. And so a book presents an opportunity for a designer or an architect to really get their message across in a deep way. And I think that's something that's missing on social. I think that's why a website is actually so important, because you can really own your message. But a book allows you to talk about your process, to talk about your team, to share some beautiful work that you might not be able to share in other formats. A lot of my clients, clients are incredibly private, and obviously their clients are the ultimate goal with everything we do. So some of them will allow a project in their home to be in a book, and we can never publish it in the media, and we can't post it on social. So you get exposure as a reader to kind of the inner minds of these talents and how they work and how they think and what they do. And I think whether you're someone that can hire them or you're someone that just aspires to live in the way that they design, that is really valuable for a designer, for an architect, but also just for a reader and a design lover. Every time I move, I moved during the pandemic, I have these enormous boxes of books. My movers are always just like, we're gonna charge you a lot for this. But it's because I do think there's a place in the world still for these beautiful, tangible objects. And actually more so than ever, just because everything is so instant.

[Michael Boudreau]

Well, especially considering how much uproar there was on social media and Instagram Pinterest about bookshelves and how to style them and fit. So clearly there's a place for them. Maybe not always in the right place in the home, but there's definitely a place for books. But to play devil's advocate, to do a book takes basically two years.

[Sarah Burningham]

It takes two years and it takes a ton of money.

[Michael Boudreau]

Right, and takes a ton of money. And you can post an Instagram post in 10 minutes. So I guess my question is, and Ms. Boyd, I'd love you to weigh in here. How do designers need to perceive? Because I think a lot of designers are really confused and overwhelmed by this. Do they hire a publicist? Do they do their own social media? So how should they think about this in proportion, out their time and their attention? And how important is Instagram really? I think we've talked about all of this before, the importance of good visuals. We're in a visual field and certainly a visual world, but how do they not become overwhelmed? How do you guide them?

[Sarah Boyd]

I think that Roxanne and Sarah would probably agree with me that to your point, visuals are key. So invest in the photography first and foremost before you hire any of us.

[Michael Boudreau]

Do you guys agree with that? Roxanna?

[Roxanne Hannah]

Absolutely.

[Michael Boudreau]

Okay.

[Sarah Burningham]

I was gonna say that I think when you get to the point as a designer or an architect that you're ready to photograph your work, it is smart for you to look at what the project is and how you're gonna photograph it. Not every photographer is created equal. And so even for my clients that have photographers and stylists that they know they love, they know their work, sometimes we'll have a special project, and we know we wanna place that somewhere specific that has its own personality. You wouldn't send a project to Cabana that you would send to House Beautiful, for example. They're very different aesthetics, they're different audiences. So I think when you're thinking about photographing as an early designer and kind of getting that sense, you need to think about, where are the people that I want to hire me? Who do I want this project to reach? And then who is the team? Who's the photographer? Who's the stylist that can help me get that feeling?

[Michael Boudreau]

No, and I think that's totally true. But at the same time, as we know on Instagram or Reels or TikTok, process videos and shots are hugely popular. So I'm getting back to that same question. Ms. Boyd, what's a designer to do.

[Sarah Boyd]

I think that Instagram has become a calling card, much more so than it ever has before. And I think that's true even just for us. On this call, I've had people who I didn't know say, oh, I like your Instagram, so that's why we're contacting you. Which kind of alarmed me, honestly. But, I mean, I was happy to hear that. But it is interesting. Like, I kind of thought that designers or brands were just looking at each other's. They weren't judging a PR person's Instagram, but we're all judging it, right? So I think that if you are interested in exploring a book, a license collection, a collaboration with brands, expanding your reach into other markets, and it is key to have a beautifully curated Instagram and continue to explore what Instagram's algorithms are, which Roxanne can teach us more about. But I think that it is your calling card and you do have to pay attention to it. And even if you were to do it yourself, at least pay attention to what you're putting out there and understand who you are. And be authentic is really important as well. There's canned statements that I would never say, like, that's just not how I talk. So I try to reveal yourself a little bit through your Instagram, just as you would if any platform.

[Roxanne Hannah]

And I always say that to clients that Instagram is more of people go there to see the journey, not the destination. It doesn't always need to be buttoned up. Even with photography and video, I always look at it multiple levels of developing assets. So you could take a simple video with your iPhone for behind the scenes on stories, and then you might have a behind the scenes out of photo shoot, but you're using just a gimbal or a Q and A with a small microphone. And then there are times when you're reserving for videographers to do some of the editing as well. I just think that there's a freedom now than ever before that designers can really control their own message. And also say, do I want to hold this project for two years to wait for it to get published, or do I roll it out on social media and attract the eyes of potential clients? So those are the conversations that we're always having with our clients, is levels of assets and how you would use them? And then also what Ms. Burningham was saying earlier, what type of audience? Or is this going to be something that you want to publish or something you want to take the reins on on your own?

[Michael Boudreau]

And I would say that the rules totally have changed. I remember when I was editing El Decor, I would say to designers, we're going to shoot this place. Do not put it on your website. Instagram was just getting started. Don't put it on social. You know, my feeling was that we were investing money to photograph these places. We were charging our readers $6 an issue, and I didn't want them to open a magazine they just paid $6 for and see something that they'd seen already. But I think that has totally changed. Would you all agree?

[Sarah Boyd]

Yes. So I think as soon as things go in, even if it's not just a digital story, but also in the print, it launches at the same time. So it's going to go everywhere so that the reader doesn't even know where they saw it. Did they see on Instagram, did they see it in print? Was it a digital story that went through an email blast from El Decor? So it's just you're getting it from so many different angles, which is in a way, a very positive thing, because you're reaching so many more people than you ever could before.

[Michael Boudreau]

And people who don't want to spend $6 can see it.

[Roxanne Hannah]

Well, there's also a lot of planning involved. Sarah and I share a client who is going to be published in a major publication soon. And we worked together. It was in September where we started working on video content. And we're still waiting. You know, it's a long time, but we work together. We know that when it's perfectly aligned with the announcement, then it's even more powerful. Because I always view that publicists promote from the outside in. They influence the editors and the brand. And our job is to really amplify from the inside out. So we take that content and we find ways to share it with the world. But it's very powerful when you can work together.

[Sarah Boyd]

Absolutely. And I think that the word amplify is perfect because it doesn't just start and stop with like, oh, El Decor wants to feature the story. Okay, great. And then we just sort of wait around for it to happen. We're planning, we're looking to see who the vendors are. We're looking to see how long do we have to wait till we can maybe explore international issues somehow. We want to do a collaborative post. We try to give it as much life as possible because we all know this is a three year project. The investment is huge, and it's a groundbreaking moment for all of us.

[Sarah Burningham]

Well, and just to go back to the very beginning when we were talking about posting things on Instagram. And has that changed? I always advise my clients to be really careful that we're not revealing a project too in depth on Instagram if we are going for print publication. So I don't think that has changed dramatically. But there are a lot more process shots, site visits, details that we share along the way. So a lot of times, editors who follow the designers and architects are actually aware of the existence of a project or when we're going to pitch it to them. And so they're seeing. Oftentimes we're shooting. I actually am a big believer in my clients owning photography of their own projects, since it's really all they can have once they leave. So we still invest a lot of money in photography and styling. And even though you can use snapshots and things on Instagram, I think it's a mistake to miss out on these big projects and the ways that you capture them for the future. But we're sharing those photos usually with editors at magazines, and I don't want those. Those moments to have been overly exposed when I'm pitching them. So I think there's kind of a fine line with that. And, you know, the other thing that Sarah and Roxanne both said in terms of amplifying and getting things out there, is that all of this as a viewer or as someone who's seeing it or reading it, whether it's in the magazine or online, it all seems very effortless. You know, you're seeing it, you're seeing different things posted.

[Michael Boudreau]

We know how hard effortless is, and.

[Sarah Burningham]

It is not effortless. But that means that we've done our jobs well. If it seems like that from the outside.

[Michael Boudreau]

Well, it seems to me you're all saying that the role of the PR person, for lack of a better term, because you all do much more than that, has really changed. I mean, you don't wait around for the designers to come to you with the finished project and this photograph. Now, where do you place it? You really have to get in there from the beginning in terms of massage and manage their image, what they're putting out there. So, in a way, your jobs are much more complicated than they used to be. Would you agree with that?

[Sarah Boyd]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sarah Burningham]

Definitely.

[Sarah Boyd]

I was talking actually to a potential client yesterday and trying to explain to her what I do. It was sort of tricky because I was like, okay, anything that a communications department did, and then I'm like, no, that's not true. I do a lot more than that. Okay, wait. Everything from how you look in Your headshot to who's shooting, your headshot to what brands you're going to be meeting, to how to amplify that message. And I think that there's so many different ways that we can become involved and help the client, be their right arm in communications and then also bring in people like Roxanne and then collaborate further. It's just a constant, evolving role.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Roxanne, it seems to me that you do very complicated things like you can do everything from creating a logo to making sure the website not only looks great, but functions well. I mean, I know a lot of designers now have E commerce on their sites, which is interesting to me. I think a lot of designers want to be like virtual shopkeepers, which is interesting to me. At what point do you want to get involved and go in and start mucking around with how designers present themselves?

[Roxanne Hannah]

First, in terms of social media, I think that follower count is another distribution channel. So a lot of designers get excited about when their follower count grows and they have this legitimate channel in which they can sell product or secure a licensing deal. I know that's something that the brands are looking for. And I think a lot of designers want multiple distribution channels. And so if a client wants to get involved with E commerce, we have three divisions in our company. We have branding and website. We have social media and e commerce and digital growth. And so depending on what the goals are of the designer, we can pretty much help them in any way with. Affiliate marketing is another area that we've worked with clients on as well. So, yeah, I think it's nice to have the power to grow other channels other than just designing. It's also fun, too. Hi, everybody, and thanks for joining us on the Cherish podcast. I'm Ana Brockway, the co founder and president of Cherish.

[Sarah Boyd]

I'm really excited to let you know that we've just added a major new feature on Cherish. It's called Cherish messaging and it lets you communicate directly and privately with our sellers. If you have a question on an item, need a specific measurement, want to.

[Roxanne Hannah]

Ask about a seller's price flexibility?

[Sarah Boyd]

You can now speak discreetly and directly to our dealers through Cherish.

[Roxanne Hannah]

Shoppers and particularly the trade have been.

[Sarah Boyd]

Asking for this feature and we've listened and delivered it.

[Roxanne Hannah]

So please come on over and give it a try.

[Sarah Boyd]

Now back to the show.

[Michael Boudreau]

I want to switch for a minute to brands, like how you work with brands. I know most of our listeners are designers, so they're going to be very interested. I'm going to get back to that. But I'd love to know, like, how you work with brands, because I think all of you have worked with brands at different points in your career. So how do you approach that? When a brand comes to you, what are they looking for and what do you tell them you can do for them? Why don't we start with you, Ms. Boyd.

[Sarah Boyd]

I recently started with Remains Lighting, for example, and they had several big launches coming up this year. They hadn't done PR for a long time. So what they were looking for was, how do people work in PR now? What can you bring to the table? And I think something that's interesting and not with Waterworks, with Remains. With all the brands that I work for, it's not just about getting that one product hit. It's about what do they need to do? They need to sell their product. They need to expand their reach into two other designers and architects who may source their product. Right. So it's almost that it's a tangible result to bring designers and architects to that brand. So that's something that I offer. I have a huge database of designers and architects that I've been building for many, many, many years. And I always say that that's part of the package. So it's divided by region, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And if that's something that you want, that is something that I can utilize, is bringing designers to your brand to look at your product and help you with your brand development. So I think that a lot of people probably do that, but I feel like that that's appreciated that you understand what they need to do, which is ultimately to sell product to the end user.

[Michael Boudreau]

Right, but product selling is, as we know, a lot has to do with image. I mean, yes, hopefully the products are good and beautiful, but people have to know about the brand, have to feel that this is a brand they relate to, which is not just one faucet or one wallpaper. So, Roxanne, how do you work with the brands that you work with? And to ensure that, as we were talking with designers, authenticity. I think that's also important for brands to have that across the board, everything ties together and is a unified image, shall we say? Is that a challenge for some brands, Roxanne?

[Roxanne Hannah]

When we're reimagining or relaunching brands, we always start with brand discovery. And also we move into brand messaging, maybe adjusting the founder story or the brand's bio. And then we also look at the visual system and see if that is something that needs to be updated. So anything that has to do with logo mark, word mark, refreshing, typography, color palettes, and then we move into website or E commerce, and then we would move into social media and amplification with email marketing campaigns. So that's typically the process that we go through. And with every brand that we work with, we start with that whole discovery and seeing areas, maybe especially if it's like a well established brand that wants a refresh. Always looking at what worked and where the magic was. And how do you bring that forward into the future?

[Michael Boudreau]

I mean, it's a lot more complicated than like shooting an ad and putting it into six shelter magazines. You know, I mean, it's like definitely. I mean, and I think that works on every level for what you guys do, whether it's a designer or new brand and well established brand. I mean, you know, the whole idea of sending a press release to a market editor at a magazine, I mean, yes, I'm sure that still happens. I love my market editors. I've worked with many, many of them and I love them and I know they still have an important role at their publications. But it's very different now. And it's certainly there's a lot more outlets. So how do you decide what to focus on? Ms. Birmingham? Do you still think print is that important in terms of new products or do you feel, you know, you get it on the Today show even? You know, I mean, it's kind of amazing the outlets that are out there, but we all have limited time and limited budget. So how do you decide?

[Sarah Burningham]

Well, I think it comes back to project. But I'm so glad you said this because I feel like we hear and we have heard for 5, 10 years. Print is dead. And I actually don't believe that. I know that every magazine is publishing fewer issues, that they are smaller and maybe the paper is thinner. But my clients all still want print. And the reason that they want print is because there's still power there. And actually to have your product or your project in print carries a lot more weight when there are fewer opportunities. So when I'm strategizing with my clients about where to put something, whether it's a product or a project, we think about again who we're trying to reach. Like, that is always the first thing we think about. And then we think, where does this belong? And then we kind of shape our pitch in that way. My husband is actually an editor at a newspaper and we a couple times a week at dinner, like, joke about the pitches that he gets from people.

[Michael Boudreau]

I would love to Join you on one of those.

[Sarah Burningham]

They're hilarious. They're absolutely hilarious. And it's kind of nice to have a partner who understands what I do because he gets these really horrible pitches and, you know, it's kind of offensive. They're wasting people's time. And that's not what Sarah, Roxanne and I want to do. Everything that we put out, we know it has a really good chance of getting a yes because we've shaped it to get the yes. We've put all of the work in. We know what the personality is of the person, the editor and the publication that we're pitching it to, whether it's print or digital. But I would say I kind of start with print most of the time, not always. And then we build around that with all of the digital assets. Not to just go on and on. But right now I'm working on a story and we can have it in print in 18 months or we can have a huge digital package this summer. And there are so many factors that go into that decision. It's the client's comfortability with their house being published, it's how soon we need to get this out. What else we have kind of coming down the pike timeline wise. And I think we can leverage that print possibility into a really big, exciting digital package. So that's an example where digital might take place over print. But for most really established firms, it is still worth waiting. They have enough work that we can have a long term calendar and kind of know what's coming, where it's coming. So it doesn't feel like everything's happening at once. There's like almost a constant threat of seeing someone's beautiful work in the world. And again, every story feels a little bit different. So you're seeing something a little bit different that they can do.

[Sarah Boyd]

No, I think that's really good point, Sarah, that you were saying that we do the work beforehand so that you get to the yes, but we also can get to a no, but at least we get an answer because we've developed these relationships for so long that when our names, hopefully when they come to an inbox, I think they're opened, they're read and they're acknowledged. And I think to your point, if you like your husband's pitches that he's getting, we're not pitching, you know, milk like we know thy audience. I mean, I'm not going to the Today show, Michael, because we just don't, you know, maybe if I was at Calvin Klein home I would have, but I Can't even tell you who I would go to. It's just not my audience. Right.

[Michael Boudreau]

Well, if you had a celebrity client, you might.

[Sarah Boyd]

Oh, you're right. Like if you had a celebrity for.

[Sarah Burningham]

Sure or something that's a little more diy, right? Yeah. I think everything that we're doing right now is pretty high end, but there's a whole range in the design world, which is kind of amazing. And so there are outlets that my client's work wouldn't necessarily be applicable for, but there's still really great outlets with really great audiences. And when you're doing a book and you're trying to reach a different person to purchase the book, not necessarily hire you, sometimes those publications and those websites are a great opportunity for a book and a great chance for them to get the work of this fabulous architect.

[Michael Boudreau]

Right. And I think that sometimes high end designers can be kind of snobby, whereas local magazines can be very effective in getting you a client. You know, there's this idea that if it's not AD or Elle Decor, I don't want to be in it. But not every project is going to get into those magazines. And local tv, all of that stuff I think is sort of undervalued.

[Sarah Boyd]

Regional is so important. Absolutely.

[Sarah Burningham]

Yeah. It's crucial and especially if you're wanting to work in a different market, don't you think? Sarah and Roxanne, if you're looking to work in Palm beach, then you need to be in the Palm beach publications. I mean, Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles is one of my favorite magazines in the world. And I don't live in Atlanta. I would, I'm happy to move there if someone wants to take me down there. But I, you know, See magazine in LA is so chic. I often buy Christmas gifts based on what I've seen and see. And so, so even for my clients, getting in front of those people, those are the magazines that people are picking up at airports. And when they're out and about in the world, they're at the restaurants in la. I mean, those are places you still want to be.

[Sarah Boyd]

Yeah. I mean, sometimes I think it would be just as important for me to be in Paper City than a national magazine because they're moving the needle much more so in those markets. They're trusted, trusted resources. And look, Cottages and Gardens is starting a Palm beach publication.

[Sarah Burningham]

I know, it's so exciting.

[Sarah Boyd]

Yay. I know.

[Michael Boudreau]

It's a hot market. It's a hot market. Now I want to switch gears a little bit here and I wanted to Ask each of your advice. And Roxanne, why don't we start with you? Not all of our designers and listeners and all young designers, they're not ready to do a book, maybe they're not ready to do ad, but they want to get clients. They want to get out there, they want to move up, they want to get some more clients, better clients. What's your advice for them to focus on? Spend what little money they have at this point. What should they focus on? Roxanna, Is it their website? Is it their photography? How do they get started?

[Roxanne Hannah]

I think for emerging talent, investing in photography is number one. And then with every success that you have, add a little more to your budget and then add a little more to your budget. It's basically, I think that photography is your currency. It's what attracts you to your potential client. And then your photography can get better. I mean, even for Hannah Creative, we have multiple types of photographers that we work with. So we work with either portrait photographers who just specialize in portraits or lifestyle photographers who will have come into the studio and show the process. So designers could do that too. It's very inexpensively showing your plans or working with your team or just showing the process and the collaboration and all the work that goes behind the scenes. And then, you know, you have your interiors photographers that you know as you grow. I would strongly recommend also adding a stylist to the mix too. I think that stylists are critically important even for our own asset generation. We brought in a stylist and it just makes things so much nicer. But I know that's not always in everyone's budget, so definitely something to reach for over time.

[Michael Boudreau]

And what about websites? That's a given as well. What are the basics, first steps for a website? Because, I mean, we're not talking search engine optimization here, but you've got to have. It's like a calling card, you know, a business card that you have to have it.

[Roxanne Hannah]

We offer a very starter type website. We've designed a custom template for clients, so it's super inexpensive. But what it has is the homepage, which has all your contact information and a way to contact you, and then an about page and then a gallery, if you could start there, and then just one gallery. You don't need to break things out into individual projects, not yet. I mean, over time. And we've had clients that have grown with us that started with one gallery and now they have 15 to 20 projects. But we work with them and we work with them over an extended period. Of time. We have clients that have been with us from the very beginning. Our agency was open seven years ago. We're still collaborating with them and seeing them grow, which is really exciting. But they need a partner to help them evolve from that digital component. As things happen, they change so quickly. Technology changes, platforms change, algorithms change. And so as a firm grows, having a partner that they can rely on I think is important.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Ms. Burningham, what's your advice to young clients? I mean, should they do email blasts? I mean, there's all these options out there. And I think designers don't know what they should spend their money on. And their time, you know, their time is precious. They're, you know, you got a small team, they've Doing a lot of the work hands on themselves.

[Sarah Burningham]

They're expected to be everything, right? They have to do HR and accounting and then the creative. And now they're doing, creating videos, and it's a lot. And, you know, not everyone is good at that, which is why when you can afford to hire someone, you should hire out for the skills you need. But I think when you're just starting off before, I mean, I would say photography, like Roxanne and then your website. But I would say before you do that. The thing I love about designers and architects is that they really do know who they are. I think it comes from working with clients to figure out who they are. You know, okay, how do you really want to live? What do you really want from me? You have to read between the lines. So more so than anyone else I've worked with designers and architects. They know what their work is, and it's really hard but really important to distill what that is before you start anything.

[Sarah Boyd]

Who are you?

[Sarah Burningham]

What makes you different from your competition? What do you really bring to a client? And then I think you can build your site and everything else you do around that. You know, I am personally not a big believer in email blasts. I think very few and far between. If you want someone to open something from you, it needs to have something real in it. And I know there's. I'm gonna say something unpopular here. I know that there's an instinct to send out a blast when you're in a magazine, and I think a lot of that is an attempt to be grateful to the publication. But the truth is, is that everyone gets. I mean, I wake up every morning with 300 emails. I don't want to read a blast like that. If I'm reading a blast from you, it needs to have some real value. And so if you're going to send something out to your clients and to your followers, it should have real value for them. And if that means you're doing fewer, that's okay. We live in this world now. Everything, it's more, more, more, more content, more posts. You need to be doing things. 247 and Roxanne could speak to this so much better than I could in terms of consistency and timing. But I think if you're doing slightly fewer and you're still doing things and everything feels a little more important, a little more powerful, it's going to have more impact. So I don't love an email blast unless you're announcing like a bunch of things that are relevant, unless it's targeted regionally. But there are always exceptions to the rule. So that's not, I'm not saying that about every blast.

[Sarah Boyd]

I was just going to address about the younger Michael said earlier, like, what would you advise younger designers? Maybe just starting out, in addition to what we were saying before about photography and investing in that, I also think that we have to acknowledge that there are paint companies like Benjamin Moore rug companies. There are vendors out there that can also help you publicize and spread the knowledge of your work. So if you have an image with a beautiful rug, a beautiful lighting fixture, a bathroom with amazing, amazing bathroom, you can reach out to those vendors and have them also publish your work either through Instagram or through their websites. So that's an avenue that is just expanding greatly. And it's a really wonderful way to share your work. And also it's a great way to get to know those vendors better as friends. And that also I think that a lot of people now, of course, I'm based in New York, so there's an advantage to telling my clients who are in New York to go to events a lot and meet these people. But you can really reach out to them via email as well and send you in your work.

[Michael Boudreau]

And that's something else I wanted to ask you all about. I know you've just come off of LCDQ and there was high point is it worth for designers? Because again, this is an expense. It's a chunk of time. Is it worth it for them to go to these events or more importantly, appear on panels, you know, that kind of thing? Should designers still do show houses if they're given the opportunity, even if it's a regional show house? I mean, we're not talking Kips Bay here. I know that's, you know, grab that opportunity if it comes your way. But are These things still helpful?

[Sarah Burningham]

I think so. I actually think. Not to dwell on Covid, but I think that we're hitting this moment, this year and kind of end of last year, where there's increasing value in being in person. And I found so many events are selling out, are sold out. People want what they can't get online. You know, they see you on Instagram and they get these little snippets. But there's so many things that happen in person. Whether you're watching a panel, whether you're meeting people that you're on a panel with, whether you're listening to someone talk about their work, you just can't get that same interaction online. And so it's interesting to me that I don't feel like the online followings have dropped at all. I just think it's like everything is lifting the other. But I do feel like in person, events are absolutely worthwhile. That said, you know, you don't need to do everything, and I think you kind of have to play it by ear. If you're just starting off, you really should focus on where you live, because the chances of someone hiring you across the country as a new designer are slim. If that happens, good for you. Take that. There are always gonna be opportun. But I think you need to become a big fish in a small pond first and really get to know the editors of your regional magazines, do events locally because people in local markets around the country want to hire someone that can come to their site once a week. And so I would say kind of get proficient in your own market first, and it's easier to be in person if you're not getting on a plane.

[Roxanne Hannah]

Well, and I think it's a good point. And there are ways digitally, like through Instagram or SEO, where you can target your specific market through keywords and captions and hashtags or even geotags. On Instagram, people are not just searching by post now. They're going to the Explore page, and they're tapping keywords now. So even your captions are getting indexed on Instagram. So I agree with you about, you know, if you're just starting out, start local, but then also utilize the digital tools you have available to you to also help amplify your location.

[Michael Boudreau]

And, Roxanne, do you provide tutorials of that to your clients? Because it's a mystery to me. I have no idea how any of that stuff works, and I know I should.

[Roxanne Hannah]

We have a client, and we have a client that is moving her practice to Portugal. So now we're rolling out content that is specific to Portugal, geotagging, hashtagging, keyword, all of that through Instagram and through SEO. So, and then adjusting, even on the website, we're going to probably shift towards her palettes. Very cool and soft, but maybe make it more energetic. And as she grows and shifts and changes, we can make those changes with her. But I think leveraging all the digital tools that you have available to you are critically important.

[Michael Boudreau]

I mean, this has been so helpful and informative, but I'd love to get from each of you one bit of advice to a designer who's starting out doing okay, but wants to expand. So why don't we start with you, Ms. Boyd. What would be the single bit of advice that you would give?

[Sarah Boyd]

I think I just have to go back to photography. I would say finish the project, whether it's, you know, every room in the house that you've done or, like, the rooms that you're most proud of and that you feel like really makes your work sing. If you can afford to have a stylist, have a stylist and have that professionally photographed, own the rights to that photography, for sure, invest in that. And I think that I can speak for these ladies here. I mean, I'm happy to share who the photographers are that we love, but there's also great information through El Decor and through AD, where you can find these photographers and invest there and then take it one step at a time to grow your business.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Ms. Burningham, what about you?

[Sarah Burningham]

Well, I agree with Sarah that I think photography just because that's how you show your work. But I'm gonna take a different tack, knowing that I still think photography is most important. But I think when you're starting off, everything that you put out, whether it's the logo that you have on your Instagram page, the business cards that you're handing out, every single thing, your email signature should speak to the work that you do. And in design, I don't think good enough cuts it. Your client really wants to see your best. And so the way that you're presenting yourself, those little tiny moments, they are very subtle messages about what you're communicating and who you are and what a client's going to get from you. So I would say to make sure that every single thing you're putting out in the world represents that and it's worth investing in, like a higher pound card stock for your card and printing fewer. You're probably not giving that many cards out anyway, but when you do, they'll make an impression and to have things feel really consistent and really on the level of the work that you do.

[Roxanne Hannah]

Yeah, I would say also, I always tell potential clients, if you are showing you're representing yourself in a way that is unfinished, sloppy, then the potential client looks at that and says, well, are they going to be sloppy and unfinished and professional when they're working with me? I mean, that's the very first point. Right. And so I would recommend quality over quantity. And that's for everything. If you don't have enough content on Instagram, don't start flooding your Instagram with like five posts a week. Just do a couple posts a week and make it very thoughtful. Find ways to be of service to your audience. I think is another great way in terms of quality is give some advice or share a story or just let people know a little bit about who you are. And I think that's what's so great about digital is these platforms are there for you to express yourself. And then I also agree with in terms of print work, I mean, having the best quality paper and let's face it, there's nothing more beautiful than giving someone a handwritten note. And I know we're talking about digital today, but let's not lose sight of those tactile, tangible experiences and even like high touch experiences, like being invited to a brand's beautiful dinner and getting to know people. I think it's just there's always the other part of this too. There's the experiential and the high touch. And then pair that with digital and you're unstoppable.

[Michael Boudreau]

Fantastic. You know, this has been so helpful to me. I've learned a lot. And I thought I 15, 10 years ago, when I was an editor, PR was very, very different. And I think one of the things we've established through this talk is that social media, if anything, has certainly not replaced pr. It's actually made PR more crucial and it has really expanded your roles. Like talking to the three of you, I really became impressed that you guys are really career counselors. It's not about placing a story. You are really guiding your clients, whether they're brands or designers, every step of the way in terms of presentation and getting work out there. Sometimes that takes tough love. As you were saying, Ms. Burningham, you know, you gotta say don't do this or whatever. So I found this so helpful. I know our listeners will as well, because PR has grown and shifted as social media has grown and become more crucial. You guys are ever more important to designers to make sure that they stay true to themselves and that they are operating at the highest level on everything from, as you were saying, from a business card to an Instagram post to a story and a magazine, whether it's a local regional magazine or El Decor, a Cabana or World of Interior. So I don't know how you do it all. You guys must be working 24 hours a day, which is another reason I so appreciate your taking the time today to come onto the Cherish Podcast. And I really want to thank my wonderful guests Roxanne Hannah, Sarah Burningham and Sarah Boyd, and thank everyone for listening to the Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was voted by the readers of you USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email [e-mail] the Cherish podcast is produced by Mugs Buckley, an engineer by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.