Modern Living in Historic Homes: Renovations that Last

Summary

The Chairish Podcast: Episode Summary Title: Modern Living in Historic Homes: Renovations that Last
Release Date: October 8, 2024
Host: Michael Boudreau
Guests:

• Timothy Corrigan: Interior Designer specializing in historic architecture
• Robert O'Byrne: Writer and Lecturer on Fine and Decorative Arts

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Introduction: The Allure and Challenge of Historic Homes

In the October 8, 2024 episode of The Chairish Podcast, host Michael Boudreau delves into the complexities of renovating historic homes to meet modern living standards without compromising their historical integrity. Joined by interior design expert Timothy Corrigan and esteemed author Robert O'Byrne, the conversation centers on balancing preservation with contemporary needs in various architectural masterpieces, from French chateaus to Irish country houses.

The Appeal of Historic Homes to Modern Buyers

Robert O'Byrne initiates the discussion by addressing the continued interest of international buyers in Irish historic properties. “People coming from abroad see the particular qualities of Irish architecture over the centuries that perhaps those of us who are too close to it might not necessarily catch for ourselves” (03:50). This perspective highlights a universal phenomenon where outsiders appreciate the charm of places that natives might overlook.

Timothy Corrigan expands on this by explaining the financial attractiveness of purchasing old country houses in France. “The cost per square foot to buy one of these old country houses in France is literally a fraction of the cost of anything else of any other property” (05:04). Despite the high initial investment in restoration, the low entry cost makes these properties appealing as long-term investments.

Navigating the Challenges of Renovation

Renovating historic homes presents unique challenges, particularly in integrating modern amenities. Timothy Corrigan shares his experience upgrading the American ambassador's residence in Paris, emphasizing non-invasive methods: “We actually used the fireplace ducts to put all the ducting” (08:02). This approach allowed for the installation of central air conditioning without disturbing the original structure, demonstrating that modernization and preservation can coexist.

However, Robert O'Byrne points out the stringent EU regulations that complicate renovations. “EU legislation... is very much about trying to improve environmental issues. And obviously old-fashioned things like fusing systems... are very much out of fashion now” (06:44). These regulations often require significant upgrades that can be financially burdensome, as government assistance typically covers only a fraction of the costs.

Cultural Differences in Restoration Practices

The conversation shifts to the availability and quality of artisans necessary for restoration projects. Robert O'Byrne notes a positive trend in Ireland, where a new generation of artisans is emerging, skilled in traditional crafts: “There's a number of different courses available where you can learn traditional craft skills” (26:39). In contrast, Timothy Corrigan describes challenges in France, where artisans often price themselves as artists, making their services expensive and less accessible: “They often price themselves out of the market” (27:16).

The Role of Color in Historic Interiors

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the use of color in historic homes. Contrary to common misconceptions, Robert O'Byrne explains that historic interiors were often vibrant: “They have bright colored rooms very much thought in terms of let's put color on the walls and everything” (22:25). Timothy Corrigan shares a personal anecdote about a misstep in color selection, illustrating the importance of context in design: “I took a color reader... and I took it into the rooms and surreptitiously got the exact color... it was neon yellow. It was so horrible” (24:35). This story underscores that while bold colors are historically accurate, their application must consider the surrounding environment and lighting.

Balancing Modern Needs with Historical Integrity

Timothy Corrigan and Robert O'Byrne discuss the delicate balance between meeting contemporary living standards and preserving historical elements. Corrigan emphasizes respectful updates: “When it comes to the shell, I think it's important to appropriately update the structure of the house for the needs of today and be respectful of it” (17:40). They agree that modern amenities like kitchens and bathrooms are essential, but must be integrated in a way that maintains the property's character.

Client Relationships and Ethical Restoration

The guests highlight the importance of working with clients who are committed and understanding of the renovation process. Robert O'Byrne describes such clients as “crazy, but happily so” (10:21), indicating their passion and determination to see projects through despite the challenges. Ethical restoration often requires setting boundaries with clients to prevent “desecration” of historic properties. For instance, Corrigan recounts a project where adjacent alterations were necessary but managed without compromising the building’s authenticity: “We did a listed house in London... I was a little resistant... but we were able to maintain all the original architecture” (31:37).

The Impact of Social Media and Awareness

Social media platforms like Instagram and Pinterest play a dual role in the restoration of historic homes. While they can spread unrealistic expectations, they also serve as educational tools, increasing awareness and appreciation for historical properties. Robert O'Byrne notes, “Pinterest... are indirect educational tools that people have become much more aware of, of what the past has to offer” (35:08). Sharing restoration journeys online fosters a community of support and inspiration, making the arduous process more manageable and rewarding.

Training and Availability of Artisans

Robert O'Byrne and Timothy Corrigan discuss the availability of skilled artisans necessary for restoration. In Ireland, the emergence of trained artisans has alleviated some challenges, whereas in France, particularly in rural areas, finding specialized labor remains difficult. Corrigan shares his efforts to bring in craftsmen from different regions to complete projects, highlighting the logistical hurdles: “I had to bring some people in from the south of France to do some plaster work” (28:48).

Conclusion: Preserving History for Future Generations

The episode concludes with reflections on the profound personal and cultural rewards of restoring historic homes. Timothy Corrigan expresses that restoration is life-transforming, offering deep satisfaction beyond the frustrations: “It will be so much more rewarding than you ever possibly thought it would be” (12:13). Robert O'Byrne adds that owners become part of a continuum, embedding their stories into the fabric of these historic structures: “You are part of a long history... and you are actually embroidering that particular piece of tapestry yourself” (24:24).

Ultimately, both guests advocate for the preservation of historic homes as living entities that bridge the past and present, fostering a richer, more diverse architectural landscape for future generations.

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Notable Quotes:

• Robert O'Byrne on Foreign Buyers: “People coming from abroad see the particular qualities of Irish architecture over the centuries that perhaps those of us who are too close to it might not necessarily catch for ourselves” (03:50).

• Timothy Corrigan on Renovation Costs: “The cost per square foot to buy one of these old country houses in France is literally a fraction of the cost of anything else of any other property” (05:04).

• Timothy Corrigan on Air Conditioning Installation: “We actually used the fireplace ducts to put all the ducting... so now you actually can run air conditioning throughout all the structure” (08:02).

• Robert O'Byrne on Client Determination: “I'd probably describe them as crazy, but happily so” (10:21).

• Timothy Corrigan on Color Misstep: “I took a color reader... and I took it into the rooms... it was neon yellow. It was so horrible” (24:35).

• Robert O'Byrne on Irish Color Trends: “Mariga decided that strong colors were the way to go... bright yellow walls or green” (22:42).

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For more insights and inspiration, listeners are encouraged to explore Robert O'Byrne’s book The Irish Country House: A New Vision and Timothy Corrigan’s At Home in Inspiration and Style in Town and Country. These resources provide deeper dives into the art and challenges of restoring historic homes.

Transcript

[Michael Boudreau]

This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry at a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change. Living with history can be marvelous, and many of us are drawn to homes with age, petite and a story to tell. However, these charming old buildings, whether a colonial salt box, a 1920s Rosario candel apartment, a Frank Lloyd Wright Prairie house, or a mid century glass house, can be challenging to adapt to modern needs. You can repair walls or replace windows, but what about installing Wi fi or central air? How do you address low ceilings or cramped kitchens and bathrooms? How can we make historic homes appealing to new buyers so they aren't torn down or just as detriment, altered so much that they lose their authenticity? Today I have with me two experts on the architecture of the past and how it can be made more relevant and livable than ever. Interior designer Timothy Corrigan has offices in his native Los Angeles and in Paris. His belief in merging high style with comfort has won him clients around the globe, including the Philippines and the Middle East. He is an avowed Francophile with an extensive knowledge of that country's history and decorative arts. In his new book, At Home in Inspiration and Style in Town and country, just out from Rizzoli, he details the renovations of his new Paris apartment, which he needed to find during COVID and of his grand house in the French countryside, his fifth, the Chateau de la Chevalerie. Along the way, he shares the sometimes painful lessons he has learned, practical advice, design tips, and much, much more. Hello, Tim.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Hi.

[Timothy Corrigan]

It's great to be with you. Thank you so much for having me.

[Michael Boudreau]

So glad you're here. Robert o' Byrne is a writer and lecturer on the fine and decorative arts. He is the author of more than a dozen books, among them Lugala Days, the Story of a Guinness House, and the Last A Tribute to Desmond Fitzgerald, 29th Night of Glen. His hugely popular blog and Instagram account, the Irish Aesthete, chronicles the fascinating history of Ireland's many churches, estates, cemeteries and castles, and inspired his 2019 book, the Irish Aesthete Ruins of Ireland. But in his latest book, the Irish Country House A New Vision, just published by Rizzoli, he takes a different tack, documenting 15 houses ranging from grand estates to cozy cottages that have been lovingly restored and now serve as family homes. Welcome, Robert.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Thank you very much for having me. Michael. Great to see you.

[Michael Boudreau]

I love seeing both of these people. And in full disclosure, I have to put this out there. First of all, I worked with Tim on his new book. It was such a pleasure. So I know it well. So I want to put that clear. And also I have been a guest of Robert in Ireland and he has given me invaluable insights into that country. So I want to start with you, Robert, because I remember when we came to Ireland, which I recommend everyone do one of the best trips of my life, you were talking at that time and you were documenting with your own photographs, you know, a lot of the ruins, churches, public buildings, houses, country houses on your blog and whatever. And one of the things that you told me that was very helpful was that people were starting to recognize the value of these structures and there were many Americans who were buying houses in Ireland. Is that still the case?

[Robert O'Byrne]

It is. You still get quite a lot of people buying houses here who've come from overseas. I think they see a kind of a positivity about Ireland that we don't necessarily who live here all the time. This is a universal phenomenon. Wherever you live, you think it's perfectly dreadful. Whereas outsiders see its charms and you only see its faults. So I think that certainly has a big deal to do with it. And I think very often people coming from abroad, they see the particular qualities of Irish architecture over the centuries that perhaps those of us who are too close to it might not necessarily catch for ourselves. So for that reason I can understand. Also on an entirely practical note, they're very good value. Buying an old Houston island. I recommend them to everybody, it's true.

[Michael Boudreau]

I think the prices are less.

[Robert O'Byrne]

They're considerably less than they would be, say if you were looking for an equivalent property, certainly in the south of England, you know, you would find the equivalent for much less here in Ireland. So that's clearly a factor in what attracts people. And of course, let us not forget the charm of the natives too. She's always very winning. Right, I hope.

[Michael Boudreau]

Tim, I want to ask you, I mean, speaking of a foreigner, I think you are single handedly reviving the market for French chateau.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Well, it's interesting because I am called a chateauholic and the French press have called, referred to me as a chateau whisperer because I know so many chateaus. What's so interesting is, is exactly what Robert was saying is that the value, the cost per square foot to buy one of these old country houses in France is literally a fraction of the cost of anything else of any other property. I Mean a little three bedroom, newly built house will be at three to four times per square meter the cost of buying a big old country house. The problem of course then is the cost of renovation and maintenance and ongoing. But truly as an investment, the cost, the getting in price is very, very low, the price of entry.

[Michael Boudreau]

But you know, then comes the issue of, as you were saying, renovation. Because a lot of these houses, well, especially the older ones, a lot of them have been almost derelict. So that's a big problem. But if it's a structure that's been well maintained, but if it's from the 18th century or the 19th century or even the 20th century, not necessarily is it fitted out for WI fi for life today?

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yeah, that's, I mean that's the thing is that most of these houses, even if they've been updated along the way, most of them probably, probably have not been done since sometime after the war, after the Second World War or the 60s, 70s, they're not really suited for the needs of today. In terms of heating here in France we're introducing all new regulations so that the systems, you know, you have to upgrade all your systems incredibly where in two to three years a fuel system will actually be outlawed in France. So you're going to have to change all those kinds of systems. And that's true of probably the majority of houses, country houses, is that all the systems need to be updated and upgraded.

[Robert O'Byrne]

It's a lot of it's to do with EU legislation, so it's across most of Europe that it's to do with trying to improve environmental issues. And obviously old fashioned things like fusing systems and so forth are very much out of fashion now. So particularly with old houses, these strictures are being imposed on owners without necessarily. You'd be more familiar than I would Tim with the situation in France. But a lot of the time while there is some assistance provided, financial assistance provided for an upgrade, it's only a fraction of what they can cost you.

[Timothy Corrigan]

You actually don't get any assistance from the government for that kind of upgrade. You'll get upgrades for things that are, if it's historically listed house, and if you are a citizen of the country, you get, you can get either tax benefits or sometimes they will actually give you in kind a portion of the expense. But it's only for repair of something that is historical. It is not at all. It will never go for anything like upgrading the heating system or making it fit the norms with the European norms.

[Michael Boudreau]

Right. And as Robert knows, we Americans love our heating and we Love our air conditioning.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Absolutely.

[Michael Boudreau]

You know, as summers get hotter in Europe, climate change, I think air conditioning is going to become more important than ever. But, you know, how do you physically get them into these old houses and structures without destroying them?

[Timothy Corrigan]

Well, you know, what's so, it's so great is on that front, and I totally agree with you. I put in air conditioning in my new chateau and everyone said, oh, you're crazy. You'll need it four days a year. Well, that's not true. It's, you know, the summers are getting hotter and hotter. And what's interesting, I was lucky enough to work on the American ambassador's residence in Paris, which did not have air conditioning. It had little room, air conditioners, sort of in the window types. And we upgraded it and we were actually working with the historic monument. People figured out ways to do it where you don't have to take apart all the beautiful paneling, et cetera. We actually used the fireplace ducts to put all the ducting, et cetera. So now you actually can run air conditioning throughout all the, the structure. And you know, through those, the rooms that have that and other rooms, we came in other ways, but we did not have to take apart the whole house. And nor did you have to drop the ceilings because that's what's so often the case is they have to drop the ceiling in order to put in all that ducting.

[Michael Boudreau]

You know, also, I just want to make clear this is an issue. Yes, obviously it's an issue in Ireland and it's an issue in, in the countryside of France, but it's also an issue in America and people, you know, by, by 1920s apartment and, and in this period when, you know, much of the real estate that's on the market, people don't seem to want to buy unless it's move in condition. People don't want to do renovation. So is it a special kind of client that will be interested in these old houses? How do you encourage this?

[Timothy Corrigan]

We did a Candela apartment on Fifth Avenue in New York that did not have air conditioning. The restrictions were so great as to, in terms of you could not have any exposed units, you could not have anything. We had to literally have the entire housing of the air conditioning inside the apartment, the apartment itself. Now, unfortunately, this was a full floor, but you still gave up a fair amount of real estate in order even to get that in, and then all the sound insulation, et cetera. So it's a complex process, but increasingly people are just understanding they have to do it.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Robert in your book you have rather diverse and beautiful houses, which was interesting to me. The range. Well, first of all, the range of architectural styles because Ireland has a longer history than the United States. But you know, and the ways that people adapted them. But with the people who you found who had renovated these houses, would you characterize them as a special kind of client? Are they more interested in history? Do they just recognize value? How would you describe these people who would take on these tasks? Because they're pretty arduous tasks here too.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I'd probably describe them as crazy, but happily so. A lot of them take these on. I think a lot of people take on historic house without necessarily realizing when they start, quite what is involved and how long and arduous the process might be and indeed how great the cost might be. But you know, ideally, once they've started, they're determined to finish. You do have instances of people just not being able to continue a project beyond a certain point because their means are no longer available. But by and large it is a particular kind of person who has enough imagination and determination to stick with a project. You're right. A lot of people want to move into a house and it's Instagram ready, for want of a better term, that it's ready to roll, but that's not. And therefore a historic property by and large, particularly one that needs work undertaken on it will not be for them. But quite a lot of the people featured in my book, and indeed many others that I know are not particularly wealthy, do not start out imagining that in six months time it'll all be ready. They recognize that this is as means become available, they can take on another part. They can do up a wing or a separate apartment or whatever else it is. And it will be a gradual and long term process whereby they will bring the house back to its glory. But it won't be something that is short term and it will be as funds become available.

[Timothy Corrigan]

I think it's so true that what is almost universal is that it always is going to take longer and more money than anyone ever anticipates it's going to when they start into it. And that's just sort of a given. But the other thing that's interesting and I always say to people when they look at embarking on this process, it will also be so much more rewarding than you ever possibly thought it would be. And so yes, with all that frustration also comes real satisfaction.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I like the fact as well you see quite a lot of people now embarking on these projects and Recording them in a public vein. You know, they have perhaps an Instagram account or some sort of website account anyway, whereby they're actually engaging you in their great project so you become part of it. And in that way they receive a lot of encouragement and support. Just knowing that they're not embarking on this as a lonely process. You know, there's a whole team cheering them along.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I absolutely have that with the restoration of my chateau, which I was doing during COVID as well, where one thing after another happened that was a problem and yet I would post about it and people were so wonderfully supportive and really they loved, you know, they, I think they enjoyed seeing the setbacks more than, or you know, we know about the setbacks more than the progress. Because if you're like, okay, great, well, I guess we all, we've all experienced those setbacks and it, you know, it's that, that, that misery loves company.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah. A pipe can burst in a French chateau. It can burst in your apartment, it can burst in your garage, you know, whatever. It's like, it's universal.

[Timothy Corrigan]

And it will and it will, and it will.

[Robert O'Byrne]

But also, you know, for a lot of people, they're not going to actually undertake that kind of project, but they like being a witness to somebody else who's brave or perhaps foolhardy enough to do so and as I say, to become part of the team, cheerleaders.

[Michael Boudreau]

And it's interesting, Tim, to me, no one would say that restoring a French chateau is a practical process or something that one you do. Yet you have become, as you said, the chateau whisperer. You know them and you have many clients now coming to you. So in a certain sense I don't think you've made a profit, but in a way it's maybe paid off that you become known for this. And I. Do you think that your new book is going to inspire more people to do it or frighten them more away with stories of the leaks and the glass that gets destroyed, the historic glass. I mean, there's a lot of trauma in the book.

[Timothy Corrigan]

There's a lot of trauma. But you know what? I really hope that encourages people. I, I say to people and it's exactly what I was just saying before. It is truly to me the most, the best life transforming thing that I've ever done was, was buying one of these old piles and restoring them. And every time it's just so much fun to go through that whole process with all the trials and tribulations that come along. It's the reward is just incredible. It's just, it's such a great experience. And to get to understand it's not just the restoration, it's the understanding of the structure, the. The history of that structure, the history of the people who've lived in that structure, the history of how that house interfaced with the community in which it was in. It's all that process, it's all of that together which makes it such a wonderfully rewarding experience.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I think that's true. You know, what's very interesting is that when you embark on this sort of project, you realize actually in a way that you couldn't if you bought a new property, that you are part of a long history, that you're a continuum and the story has happened before you and will continue after you, and that you are actually embroidering that particular piece of tapestry yourself with your own tails.

[Timothy Corrigan]

And that you're really just the custodian of that house. You may own it for this period of time, but it's going to go live on beyond you, hopefully. And it'll have a life and it'll have other people who continue to embroider their designs on that house.

[Ana Brockway]

Hi, everybody and thanks for joining us for another episode of the Cherish podcast. I'm Ana Brockway, co founder and president of Cherish. I'm delighted to share that Cherish is now offering only to the trade the most generous return policy in the industry. That is a 14 day return window on all our exceptionally curated inventory. Designers asked for it and we listened. This offer is now available to interior designers on all purchases. So it's time to get shopping. For more information, visit cherish.com trademark that's C-H-A-I-R-I-S-H.com trade and now back to the show.

[Michael Boudreau]

Robert, I want you to think about this because your book, as I mentioned, has a range of styles of houses, but also a range of styles and interiors. So my question is, how directly do you think the decor of a home needs to reflect the period? Because, you know, there's a very, you know, in Milan, for example, there's a lot of historic houses that, you know, apartments that people will do up with, you know, very low slung contemporary furniture. And, you know, they'll keep the frescoes on the wall or the tapestries, you know.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Right.

[Michael Boudreau]

And you know, that's a very popular aesthetic.

[Robert O'Byrne]

It's what Tim was talking about, about things like having to put in, you know, air conditioning ducts and so forth. You know, I think you can't deny that you're living in a different period from when the house was built, but you shouldn't either be a servant to it. So it's finding a happy means between the two whereby you reflect the fact that you're living. You know, for example, Tim's chateau, when it was built there was no such thing as electricity. Are you supposed to go back to candlelight as people have done in old buildings, particularly say places like Fournier street in London's East End where you have houses that people live only by natural light or candlelight or gaslight or whatever. You have to recognize that there are changes that have taken place. You know, I'm living in an old building and I'm talking to you. Thanks to the Internet, we all are doing that. So in your decoration, I think you should acknowledge the present while simultaneously saluting the past, if that's possible.

[Timothy Corrigan]

I would. I'm not sure I agree completely. I think that as it relates to the structure, I think it's really important to appropriately update the structure of the house for the needs of today and be respectful of it. So it may be, gee, my chateau didn't have a kitchen in the main building. We had to figure out where to put a kitchen. So we took a room and we respectfully did that, respected the wazirie, the paneling that was in that room, et cetera, so that it could be transformed into a different use. So I think that when it comes to the shell, I think it's important to be respectful of the structure. When it comes to the furnishings, however, I really sort of feel like as long as it can be moved out and changed with relative ease, go for it. Go with whatever style you want. I mean, I'm not a big favor of those. You know, that's low slung Italian furniture.

[Michael Boudreau]

You know, no one's going to come to you for that.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yeah, no, hopefully not. But my point is I'm fine with it. I'm fine if that's what someone wants to put in a renovated chateau. Where I've seen sad things is when people do structural changes that really alter the building in not a good way, in a non respectful way.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Oh yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you know, there shouldn't be things like knocking down walls or removing cornicing or door arc training, you know, you shouldn't. And if I buy and large in most of Europe now, you're not allowed to engage in that kind of activity. You know, your building is listed for protection. You can't make fundamental structural changes.

[Michael Boudreau]

See, in the US we don't have those laws.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Yeah, you see? Yeah, that's the difference.

[Timothy Corrigan]

What's interesting also is in Paris is that they don't have those laws either. So all these wonderful buildings that have wonderful Haussmanian molding and everything else, they're just ripping it out. It's really sad.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I didn't realize that was in central Paris as well, unfortunately, you know, but by and large, you're not allowed to do that in most of Europe now, where you make changes. They are of a very transitory kind. They have to do with decoration, to do with pictures, the furniture and so forth. And as Tim says, they could change. That's nothing permanent. So what should allow that? It's that person's what makes it livable for that person, provided the building itself and its history is given due respect.

[Michael Boudreau]

Right.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yeah. And you know those people in London who. Who live only by candlelight. I think it's just. It's crazy. It was like we. Their home is not a museum. Their home is. Their house should be their home.

[Michael Boudreau]

I love music. You know, a museum room, a historical room in a museum. But you're not going to move in. I mean, you know, where are you going to recharge your iPhone? You know, it's like, it's crazy. But there were those artists, McDermott and McGow, who wanted to live in the 19th century, and they made their lives for, like, an artist piece. And, you know, that. I thought that was kind of cool, but I don't think the average person has any interest in doing that.

[Robert O'Byrne]

No. And it would. It would turn people off. If you were saying, you know, you have to live. You're not allowed electricity. If you're going to restore a historic building, how to guarantee nobody's going to live in a historic building?

[Michael Boudreau]

And one of the things that interests me in both of your books was the color. Because I think that's a way that you can update or change the look of a historic room very dramatically, but that is not permanent. Like the beautiful interior on the COVID of your book, Robert, that deep blue. And Tim, all the colors in the chateau are so vivid. And people, you know, I think people think, you know, that rooms in the past were very pale and, you know, off white. You know, it's kind of like Greek sculpture. We think Greek sculpture was all white, which it wasn't. It was painted. And actually, as you pointed out, historically vivid colors were very popular. You know, you go, absolutely, yeah. So I think that would be kind of liberating for clients, no?

[Timothy Corrigan]

Well, I think A lot of clients, though, are still so afraid of color. At least American clients really are afraid of color for the most part. I mean, not all of them, but thankfully. But bright colored rooms are very historically accurate. I mean, I recently looked at a fully restored piece of furniture in the Museum Decorative Arts in Paris, and it was multicolored. I mean, it was almost. To me, it was almost vulgar. It was so bright, but it was with all this incredibly inlaid wood with these bright colors, and they had accurately restored it to the way it was. We have this conception that it was all pale, muted colors in the 18th century, but not at all so.

[Robert O'Byrne]

And I think Tim is right, color requires a certain bravery and a lot of people don't have it. It's easier to fall back on shades of beige because they're safe. You know, they work, they're a neutral backdrop. You need to understand, actually the color is liberating rather than anything else. And in fact, you are inhibiting yourself by sticking with pale shades.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Robert, isn't it true that Irish houses are vary from English houses in the way that, you know, I think of them and maybe I'm wrong, but as being bolder both in color and in carvings and paneling. And is that true?

[Robert O'Byrne]

One of the great exponents of color in Ireland, this is well over half a century ago, was the late Mariga Guinness, who was Desmond Guinness first wife. And they co founded the Irish Jordan society back in 1958. And Mariga decided that strong colors were the way to go to have, you know, dark red walls or blue or yellow, bright yellow walls or green. Every conceivable color. Not least because, you know, in Ireland we have a lot of gray skies and they freed up, they brought lice to a room that it didn't have previously. And it became a real trend that has survived to the present day. And yes, you're right, as in consequence, ever since then, people, when they're redecorating country houses have very much thought in terms of let's put color on the walls and everything. You know, everything. Things like gilt frames look so much better. Furniture looks better against a strong color than it would against a neutral backdrop.

[Timothy Corrigan]

But I would even say you look at historically Irish furniture and Irish furniture has always been a little more bold, a little, you know, look at Irish Georgian furniture and it's got a little more oomph, it's got a little more life than its English counterpart would have been.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I completely concur with you. And it's the same with Irish houses. They tend to be slightly larger, slightly bolder. Particularly, as you say, Irish furniture. It's, you know, when the Irish embraced a particular style, they didn't let it go. So it tended to last longer. And they got completely carried away with it.

[Michael Boudreau]

The plaster work on some of those.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Houses, I agree the plasterwork is quite ridiculous, but wonderful to live with at the same time. So, yes, there's a kind of German baroquery about it sometimes, which is quite exciting. There's a sense of release.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Tim, I want you to tell this story because, you know, we're talking about color. And as Robert mentioned, the light is so different in Ireland and England and France. Tell the story about your yellow room in the chateau.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Of course, everyone has loved Nancy Lancaster's yellow room from, you know, which was then in Kovacs and Fowler's offices. And so I actually took a color reader, a Benjamin Moore color reader, and I took it into the rooms and surreptitiously got the exact color. Cause I wanted to add that to the main drawing room at my chateau. And so I exactly matched the color. I didn't even question whether I should do a test sample to see how it was in that space. I had them paint the entire room. I wasn't there when they did it, and I came and I thought, oh my gosh, who plugged this room in? It was neon yellow. It was so horrible and bright and just over the top. And I didn't take into consideration that the room in London was. Was. It had one north facing window. It had reflection of gray buildings, gray clouds. And here it was in Loire Valley with green all around and sunshine. And it just didn't work. So it's that concept, that color that works in one place is not necessarily going to work in another place.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Absolutely. I mean, I love the colors you see, for example, in somewhere like Mexico. But the light is totally different, better. And frankly, it would be a horror show if they were translated to Ireland.

[Michael Boudreau]

Absolutely. I can't even imagine. So I want to ask a practical question for anybody who reads your books, gets inspired, which if they read the books, they will get inspired, because both books are wonderful. And it starts to think about this. If they ultimately take on an old house like this, the resources they need, and I'm not talking money, obviously they need money, but you know, artisans, you know, to do parquet floors, to repair that elaborate plaster work, to fix, you know, replace the windows, you know, which are not up to code or whatever. Drafting. How hard is it, you know, in Ireland? But also, I'll start with you in Ireland. Robert, Are we training next generations of artisans? It's something we've talked about on this podcast before is the dearth of artisans and how we train more. Is that an issue? In Ireland?

[Robert O'Byrne]

It would have been, it's less so now because there's a new generation coming through who are actually interested in this and are learning traditions. And there's a number of different courses available where you can learn traditional craft skills, whether it's plaster work or even, you know, wall repairing, stone walls, flooring, whatever it may be. And as a result of that, it is now easier to find at those kind of particular skills and people who want to do it. You know, this is their, they've decided this is their future is working in this area. So it's not, it was a challenge. I think it's become less so in more recent decades.

[Timothy Corrigan]

And, you know, it's interesting. I, I, I've done a number of projects in England, and I find it much easier in England, for example, than in France and in London than in Paris, for example. I mean, it's, it's, it is interesting to see the difference between those two countries. In France, it's more very difficult. And it's interesting because even if people have gone to specialized schools, et cetera, they come out of it them often thinking of themselves as artists as opposed to artisans, and they price themselves out of the market. They don't realize that, you know, there is a distinction between a craftsperson and an artist. And so that they're, you know, they're coming in with these crazy bids where you sit there and think, hang on, in any other place they would be, you know, half the price. So there's that issue. And then it's just difficult to find them. I mean, you know, in certain things like plaster work, there are only a handful in France of companies that still do plaster work. So you really have to, you know, track them down and it's difficult to get them, et cetera. I had to, for a project in Paris, I actually had to bring some people in from the south of France to do some plaster work. So it is very difficult. And then when you get out into the French countryside, forget it. It's really tough. I mean, you're ending up because, you know, people is, particularly in France, they don't want travel more than an hour or hour and 20 minutes to go do a job. And so the likelihood of being able to find, you know, every time I do a new project for a client, I've got to find a Whole new ecosystem of labor in that area. So it's a real challenge.

[Michael Boudreau]

I think. You need to fly them in from Ireland.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Exactly. It sounds like it.

[Robert O'Byrne]

And we're part of the eu, so, yes, it could. Easier.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yes.

[Robert O'Byrne]

For us to travel.

[Michael Boudreau]

So I want to ask another question that's a little bit aesthetic related. I mean, because people renovate houses that, you know, and in America this happens a lot. And, you know, there's beautiful houses in America from the 19th century, whatever, you know, we all know those. And tear downs are not just happening in old houses. I mean, houses from the 1950s are being torn down. Beautiful houses. But then some of them are being renovated. But at what point does renovation become desecration? I'm, I, you know, I was on a panel once with Leo Marmel from Marmel Ratzinger, and they get hired to renovate a lot of glass houses from the mid, from the 50s, whatever, modernist houses, which are treasures. And he was saying that at a certain point you have to say to the client, no, I won't do that. I'm not going to ruin the, you know, the, you know, yes, they want a bigger kitchen. We'll figure out ways, they'll add an addition onto it or whatever. So has that ever, I mean, is that an issue that you've had to deal with, Robert? Have you encountered that where it's a beautiful old house and you go in and it's actually been kind of ruined?

[Robert O'Byrne]

Yeah. Oh, no. It's not necessarily an unusual phenomenon. Sadly, you do find that with people who, you know, they have the best of intentions, but they're not necessarily, they don't necessarily have the best of advice or assistance. And as a result, unlike the people you were just talking about who said, you know, literally on ethical grants thus far and no further will we go, these people will happily do whatever the client wants, even if it means fundamentally altering the character. Effectively, what you're embarking on in restoration is precisely that it's restoring the character of the building while making it perfectly livable in today's world. And that is entirely feasible. There are degrees of challenge involved, but it is always feasible. And it is not necessarily essential to take shortcuts or to make fundamental alterations, because that's not a restoration.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Under those circumstances, you have to look at changing needs. For bathrooms, for example, you know, it's. People want bigger and bigger bathrooms. At my chateau, there was, I think, I think there were three bathrooms or something, and now there are 13. The way I did it was I took every other room and turned it into a bathroom. So you weren't ruining every other bedroom. Every other bedroom and turned it into a bathroom, but maintained the. The paneling, et cetera. And. And, you know, he would hide a shower behind a gym door, et cetera. So there are ways, I think there are ways that you can accommodate for the needs of today that still is respectful of the architecture. And I think it's really. That's the key thing is always being open to the needs of today, but understanding the importance of the. Respecting the structure.

[Michael Boudreau]

But, Tim, has a client ever asked you to do something where you said, you know, that's a big mistake, you shouldn't do that. I'm not going to do that. Or are they so intimately involved along the way that you're.

[Robert O'Byrne]

You don't have to mention any names. It's all.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah, no names need me mentioned. Unless you want to.

[Timothy Corrigan]

We did a listed house in London where they wanted to put the kitchen, which had been in the lower level. They wanted to put the kitchen in the place of one of the drawing rooms on the first floor. The second floor was really the main floor. With a bathroom.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Yeah, exactly. They wanted to put it in the ground floor.

[Timothy Corrigan]

I was a little resistant because I didn't love the idea of walking in and having a kitchen. Right to your right. But we were able to maintain all the original architecture, et cetera, and put all the aspects that were kitcheny behind, you know, behind cupboards, et cetera. So it didn't scream kitchen. And I think it was successful. But I had to be brought there sort of kicking and screaming and saying, okay, but we have to do it this way.

[Robert O'Byrne]

One of the biggest things that always happens with people buying houses, the two things they want to change, almost invariably, kitchens and bathrooms.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yep.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah.

[Robert O'Byrne]

That's the main thing for updating, always. And as you say, Tim, it's trying to accommodate those.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yeah. And what's interesting is, if you think about it, that's probably the most fundamental change in the way people have lived. The way they've lived 100 years ago to the way they do today is their expectations are kitchens and bathrooms.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Yeah. In France, for example, at one stage I had an apartment in Paris, so I knew France well. And when I was a boy, we had this exchange. We used to go and stay with people who had a chateau in Brittany. And French kitchens and bathrooms, by and large, were horrible places, both of them small.

[Timothy Corrigan]

They still are. They still are.

[Robert O'Byrne]

And grim. And certainly in the case of the bathrooms, deeply smelly. Whereas they would have very smart, grand public Spaces, the drawing room, the dining room, and so on and so forth. But they'll be very smart. But kitchens were always tucked into some ghastly little corner. And as in, bathrooms were. Well, I'll leave you to imagine how ghastly they were.

[Michael Boudreau]

Clearly vivid memories.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Yes. These things lost.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Yeah.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I'm still seeking therapy for it. Right.

[Michael Boudreau]

But what's interesting is, at least in the United States, and there are tons of now manufacturers who create bath fittings, kitchen fixtures that are historic and draw on history. And they seem to be ever more increasingly popular with, at least with Americans who. The fittings could have been in a bathroom 100. They're all efficient and they're low water flow and all of that, but they look like they could have been in.

[Timothy Corrigan]

A bathroom from the 20s.

[Michael Boudreau]

From the 20s or something. And so I think there is a lust for history, the way people want to live. We don't all want to live like the Jetsons. So I think there is an acknowledgement there. So I guess my question is, how do you get people to understand that, yes, you'd like a historic bathroom, but you really want more. A whole historic home in a way. You know, you guys, I think, are doing more than doing your bit with your new books to get people to appreciate history and the value of old properties. You know, whether it's a cottage or a chateau, an apartment, whatever. But how do we get more people so that we don't get, you know, the. In the United States, we get the hormone McMansions or those new American farmhouse things that the whiteboard and patent and the, you know, they're just. It's like, oh, my God, you know, you could have bought a house for much. Like we were saying, for much less. That had way more charm than this. So, Robert, you said that was changing in Ireland. Do you think the Irish are more appreciative of their history now?

[Robert O'Byrne]

They are. I mean, there's always a way to go. It's the same in every country. There's always a way to go. But I think actually it's funny enough. Well, first of all, travel, but also things like social media like Instagram, terrific educating tools.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yes. And I just want to add, anyone who does not follow Robert's Irish aesthete account on Instagram and his blog, you're really missing out on something because it's a font of beautiful imagery and tons of information. I don't know how you.

[Robert O'Byrne]

Thank you. And I didn't pay him for that free advertisement.

[Michael Boudreau]

No.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I just want you all to know that as well. Anyway, the point is, for example, there are pluses and minuses. When Pinterest started, for example, I know architects and designers were driven crazy with people. Producing photographs from Pinterest is like, I want this. I say, well, actually, your house is totally unsuited to that, and so and so forth. But at the same time, they are indirectly, you know, educational tools that people have become much more aware of, of what the past has to offer and how they can have it in their own lives.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yes, because I guess that's another thing. You can appreciate history, but you don't want the wrong history. Yeah.

[Timothy Corrigan]

And I think that it's a part of all of our jobs, I mean, as designers, as you know, et cetera, as writers, is to understand this. That part of our job is education, is to explain why something is the way it is. And when you understand it, it kind of makes more sense, and you kind of go, oh, got it. I understand. And now I can embrace it. But if it's just the other, then you don't really understand it. You don't really want it.

[Robert O'Byrne]

I mean, the point is, as well, maybe not so much in the United States as I say the legislation in most of Europe now to some extent, forces that degree of education on people. They simply can't do certain things, or if they do, they'll find the relevant authorities, both local and national, coming after them and questioning why they've done that. So as a result of that, whether they like it or not, there are rules which have to be followed when it comes to historic properties, but they needn't be onerous, and it's perfectly possible without making it sound too grim and trying to deter anybody from taking on a historic property. In fact, if you work within the rules, certainly in this country, Tim said it's less so in France, but certainly in this country, there are funds, various grants available, various supports available to people taking on historic property to encourage them to get it right.

[Michael Boudreau]

And do you think that's gonna change in France, Tim? Is there more awareness now that more chateaus are being renovated and brought back to life? People are living in them.

[Timothy Corrigan]

But still, what's interesting is that the majority of people who are not the majority, but probably, yeah, probably it is. Probably the majority of people who are buying French chateaus are foreigners because of the death tax situation for French people makes it very difficult for someone who. For a family member to keep. When someone dies, to keep that chateau within the family because of the way distribution goes with it, you know, across. Across the. Everyone equally in the family. And then the death taxes are very high. So the majority of them are being purchased from outside. And what's interesting is that they do have, I think, perhaps a greater appreciation, as it was a question you asked at the beginning was, do they have a greater appreciation? And I think that in some cases, the foreigners do have a greater appreciation for some of these wonderful old structures than the French. Maybe there's a handful. Of course, I'm involved in the French Heritage Society, and we get very involved with the restoration of private chateaus and buildings all over France. So there are still people, French people, who are still, of course, very interested in and care about it. But it's a difficult situation and it's a very costly situation.

[Michael Boudreau]

And, you know, a word that I put in my notes and circled, but we both have mentioned this is patience. You know, this is not an overnight thing to take this on. It's really a commitment, almost a lifetime commitment. Although, Tim, you managed to do it shockingly quickly.

[Robert O'Byrne]

You've clearly had quite a lot of lifetimes in a short span of time.

[Timothy Corrigan]

But it is true that you've just sort of say, gee, I want to put a bathroom in here. And you just can't. You can't just do that. You have to, you know, you have to get approvals that, you know, things that there's many more steps you have to go through with an historic structure to get it approved. That can often, you know, tax one's patience.

[Robert O'Byrne]

But I think as well, you have to understand when you take on that issue of patience is that when you take on a historic building, you might start out with a certain vision or a certain idea of what the end result will be. But it is highly likely that over the course of the restoration process, that will change. Sometimes change will be forced on you because you find actually the pipe won't go through that wall or whatever else it may be. And sometimes your ideas will change during the course of it, too. And that makes the adventure more exciting.

[Timothy Corrigan]

Oh, absolutely. I've always felt that it is so much more interesting to do work on a restoration of an old house versus starting with a brand new sheet of paper where I can design whatever I want. To me, it's so much more interesting and more of a challenge to try to figure out how to make an old structure work for today than to design one new.

[Michael Boudreau]

Well, this has been a fascinating discussion. Not that I'm surprised. I knew it would be. And, you know, I think what both of you are doing in your own different ways is really creating a better future by making the past more valued. And I think that that is such an important role. I want all my listeners to go out and buy your books because they're so informative and so beautiful and so inspiring. And I really want to thank my wonderful guests Robert o' Byrne and Timothy Corrigan, and thank everyone for listening to the Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decorations. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email [e-mail] the Cherish podcast is produced by Mugs Buckley and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time, Sam.