What Do Artisans Wish Designers Knew?

Summary

The Chairish Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: What Do Artisans Wish Designers Knew?
Release Date: October 25, 2023
Host: Michael Boudreau
Guests: Cindy Symes (Symes Studio), Jonas Everett (Superstrata), Leah Beth Fishman (The Society of Guilders)

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Introduction

In this engaging episode, host Michael Boudreau delves into the intricate relationship between artisans and interior designers. As the interior design industry faces rapid changes, the collaboration between skilled artisans and designers becomes increasingly crucial. Boudreau is joined by three esteemed artisans—Cindy Symes, Jonas Everett, and Leah Beth Fishman—who share their experiences, challenges, and insights on fostering meaningful partnerships with designers.

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Journey into Artisanal Craftsmanship

Cindy Symes on Becoming a Decorative Painter
Cindy Symes explains her path to founding Symes Studio, highlighting her early passion for artwork and decorative painting techniques. After meeting her husband Jorge in Buenos Aires and gaining exposure to various design projects, Cindy transitioned from solo work to establishing a full-fledged studio employing multiple artists.

Notable Quote:
“I think I always did artwork... we kept getting busier and busier.”
—Cindy Symes [02:48]

Jonas Everett on Founding Superstrata
Jonas Everett discusses his background in fine arts and how his natural talent in decorative plaster led him to start his own business in 2003. Recognizing the need to balance creative work with business management, Jonas pivoted to founding Superstrata—a collective that represents and supports fellow artisans, allowing them to focus on their craft.

Notable Quote:
“I really try to create a space that they can thrive in.”
—Jonas Everett [05:36]

Leah Beth Fishman on Gilding Expertise
Leah Beth Fishman shares her journey into the art of gilding, sparked by her studies in art and a chance discovery of antique restoration courses. Apprenticing under a master gilder, Leah honed her skills in architectural gilding, becoming an integral part of Superstrata.

Notable Quote:
“I didn't even really know what [gilding] was at the beginning.”
—Leah Beth Fishman [06:12]

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Awareness and Collaboration Challenges

Limited Awareness in the U.S. vs. Europe
Jonas Everett highlights the stark contrast between the U.S. and Europe in valuing handcrafted decorative work. Europe boasts numerous organizations supporting artisans, whereas the U.S. lacks such widespread recognition and infrastructure.

Notable Quote:
“I happened to have a call earlier today with the European nonprofit the Michelangelo foundation... it's just designed to support artisans.”
—Jonas Everett [09:19]

Difficulty in Finding Skilled Artisans
Designers often struggle to locate artisans with specialized skills, limiting their creative possibilities. Both Cindy and Jonas emphasize the scarcity of artisan guilds and the fragmented nature of the artisan community in the U.S.

Notable Quote:
“There are not a lot of artisan guilds in the United States.”
—Cindy Symes [10:18]

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Building and Maintaining Client Relationships

Designer-Driven Projects
Both Cindy and Leah note that the majority of their projects originate from collaborations with interior designers, predominantly in the residential sector. This partnership ensures projects are well-defined, aesthetically aligned, and within budget.

Notable Quote:
“Most of ours are residential... 90% through interior designers and architects.”
—Cindy Symes [12:45]

Educating Clients on Craftsmanship Value
Cindy and Leah stress the importance of educating clients about the time and effort involved in handcrafted projects. Demonstrations and sample interactions help clients appreciate the uniqueness and personalization artisanal work brings.

Notable Quote:
“When someone comes into the studio, it's like all of a sudden they light up... it's a candy store for designers.”
—Cindy Symes [20:20]
“And they start to understand, oh, this is not a two hour... No, until they see the work being done...”
—Leah Beth Fishman [21:29]

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Expanding the Artisan Community

Finding and Supporting New Artisans
Jonas Everett and Cindy Symes discuss strategies for recruiting and nurturing new talent. Superstrata offers support in the business aspects, enabling artisans to focus on their creative work. Cindy emphasizes long-term employment and apprenticeships to cultivate skilled artists.

Notable Quote:
“We take over on the business side of things... so the artisans can focus on being creative.”
—Jonas Everett [33:08]

Educational Pathways and Apprenticeships
Cindy advocates for a well-rounded education that includes not only fine arts but also courses in marketing and accounting. This approach equips emerging artisans with the necessary skills to manage their businesses effectively.

Notable Quote:
“Pick a school that has a good art program, but isn't necessarily only a focused art school where they could take a class in marketing...”
—Cindy Symes [39:20]

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Overcoming Industry Frustrations

Bureaucracy and Project Complexity
Cindy and Leah share frustrations related to complex contractual agreements and multiple layers of communication between designers, clients, and contractors. This often leads to miscommunication and diluted project visions.

Notable Quote:
“We're getting contracts these days that are 70 pages long or 80 pages long, or NDAs...”
—Cindy Symes [28:10]

Protecting Artisan Work and Samples
Jonas raises concerns about artisans being reluctant to share their best work due to fears of copying. He suggests that better protection and trust between designers and artisans can lead to showcasing more diverse and high-quality samples.

Notable Quote:
“Designers would start to see better and better and more interesting, diverse, unique samples from artisans.”
—Jonas Everett [29:18]

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Fostering Creativity Through Collaboration

Personalized and Unique Designs
Cindy and Jonas highlight the importance of personalized elements in projects, allowing artisans to incorporate clients' narratives and preferences into their work. This collaboration results in unique, story-rich interiors that stand out.

Notable Quote:
“Weaving a little story that personalizes... it's really important to us to make it meaningful.”
—Cindy Symes [25:49]

The Future of Artisan Spaces
Jonas envisions creating a dedicated space for artisans to showcase their work, facilitating face-to-face interactions and fostering deeper collaborations with designers. While currently relying on meetings and presentations, a physical space could enhance client-artisan relationships.

Notable Quote:
“We have plans to have a space for people to come to eventually... it's really powerful.”
—Jonas Everett [23:50]

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Encouraging the Next Generation of Artisans

Supporting Aspiring Artisans
The guests discuss the challenges young artisans face, such as high student debt and the lack of comprehensive training programs in the U.S. They emphasize the need for mentorship, apprenticeships, and organizations like Superstrata and The Society of Guilders to provide support.

Notable Quote:
“If you've gone through a basic BFA program, you probably have a good basis on understanding of the materials and processes where you could jump in.”
—Jonas Everett [36:48]

Elevating the Status of Artisans
Cindy observes a growing appreciation for skilled artisans, partly due to platforms like Instagram that showcase their work. This visibility helps shift perceptions, recognizing artisans as valued creators rather than mere construction workers.

Notable Quote:
“It’s been growing probably because of Instagram and some of the social media...”
—Cindy Symes [38:42]

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Closing Thoughts

Michael Boudreau wraps up the episode by emphasizing the richness and beauty that artisans bring to interior design projects. He underscores the significance of collaboration and encourages designers to explore the vast array of artisanal talents available to enhance their creative endeavors.

Final Notable Quote:
“I think that if I had my life to do over again, I think I would wanna be an artisan.”
—Michael Boudreau [41:10]

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Conclusion

This episode of The Chairish Podcast offers a profound exploration of the symbiotic relationship between artisans and designers. Through candid discussions, Cindy Symes, Jonas Everett, and Leah Beth Fishman shed light on the challenges and rewards of artisanal craftsmanship in the modern design landscape. Their insights advocate for greater awareness, education, and collaboration to foster a thriving creative community.

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For more episodes and insights into the interior design industry, visit The Chairish Podcast on Acast.

Transcript

[Michael Boudreau]

This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry at a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change. It's long been acknowledged that great interiors depend on a range of talents, and those talents are becoming only harder to find. Compared to Europe, there's less of a tradition in the United States of valuing hand done decorative work and respecting artisans and their very special skills. Many designers don't even realize the many ways that collaborating with artisans and craftspeople can enrich their projects. And artisans won't have enough work to make their careers viable if designers don't hire them. How can artisans make it easier for designers to find them and collaborate with them? And how can designers help their clients to understand the importance of craftsmanship? Today I have with me three wonderful artisans to talk about not only the range of skills and decorative techniques that artisans can bring to projects, but also what they are doing to expand awareness of their work and to inspire the next generation of creatives. Cindy Symes founded Symes Studio with her husband Jorge 31 years ago after they met in Buenos Aires while studying decorative painting techniques. Today, their Chicago based studio employs a full time group, a professional artist skilled in creating a gle musee murals, custom glazed and textured finishes, trompe l', oeil, Venetian stucco, stenciling, gilding, custom mirrors and more. And they work on projects around the country. Welcome Cindy.

[Cindy Symes]

Thank you. This is fun.

[Michael Boudreau]

Jonas Everett began his career creating decorative plaster finishes before founding the Manhattan based studio Superstrata, an artisan collective that works with leading designers and architects to provide innovative decorative finishes, murals, gilding and numerous other skills and techniques. Hello Jonas.

[Jonas Everett]

Hi Michael.

[Michael Boudreau]

Leah. Beth Fishman studied art at fit, where she became acquainted with the art of gilding through a class involving restoration techniques for antiquities. She went on to apprentice with a master gilder where she honed her skills in architectural gilding for interiors and exteriors, gilt furniture and objects. Vera Egla, Musee and Beyond Welcome Leah hi.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Thanks for having me.

[Michael Boudreau]

I'm so glad that you're here today because this is a topic that I love but I'm sort of mystified about. So I want to get a sense from each of you and maybe Cindy, we'll start with you. Like how did you decide you wanted to become a decorative painter? How did that come about? And then how did you briefly expand into doing these other things where you hire other artisans as part of your studio.

[Cindy Symes]

I think I always did artwork. I did murals in junior high school and high school. I ended up in Buenos Aires in my early 20s, and that's a whole other story. But I had friends there. I mean, I went to art school. I was a painting major and I did very like hyper realistic type work. And I had designer friends and architects in Buenos Aires that started throwing projects my way, saying, I think you could do this, I think you could do this. And I met Jorge shortly around that time. And at an art collector's dinner, we sat next to each other and became friends and started helping each other with similar projects. And I think it took us about a year to figure out it was a full time job. It was, you know, we kept getting busier and busier. And after a year at TUM Buenos Aires, I talked him into moving back to the US and our first son came along right at that time. By the time he was born, we had three or four people helping us. And we have a wonderful staff of full time artists with, with us.

[Michael Boudreau]

Great, great. And Jonas, what about you? I mean, decorative plaster is not something that a lot of colleges I know you can major in. So how did this come about?

[Jonas Everett]

Like, Cindy, I had a background in fine art. I have a BFA and an MFA in studio art and abstract painting. And I kind of fell into it. It was a job that I started doing and I had some natural talent at it. And it didn't take me long to figure out that I should start my own business. But one of the things I realized early, early on was that running a business and doing the thing that the business does, especially if it's a creative practice, there are two different skill sets. And, you know, I would be standing on a ladder with a cell phone pressed to my ear and a trowel in my hand, trying to work on one project while getting the next project. And so later on, I decided to pivot and to start representing artisans. I had been. After 2008, I started subcontracting some of the work out, but that didn't feel authentic. I wanted to shine a light on other artisans and be able to, you know, lift them up and talk about them as artisans and as individuals and, you know, help to build them up and help them build their career. And so that's what really spawned Superstrada. And it's grown out of that desire to support artisans and lift artisans up and kind of providing that other. The other side of the equation and let them focus on the really creative skills and the artistry. And, you know, I have a background in a lot of those things, so I can speak to it, and I can collaborate with them, and I can talk about it, and I can talk to designers about it. And, you know, I really try to create a space that they can thrive in.

[Michael Boudreau]

And how many years ago did you found Superstrada?

[Jonas Everett]

Superstrada, I guess now is about 10 or 11 years that it's been super strata. It started out as Jonas Everest Design, which was when I was. I. You know, it was my own studio. We were doing trowel plasters and decorative painting and some cast plaster, bas relief, things like that. That was in 2003 that I started that. That business.

[Michael Boudreau]

And now, Leah, you work with Superstrada, correct?

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Yeah, I do.

[Michael Boudreau]

And you're a gilder?

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Yes, yes, indeed. That's my area of expertise.

[Michael Boudreau]

Okay, so tell me a little what a. How you got into it and what a gilder does.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Sure. Well, I think, like most decorative artisans, unless you're really born into it, we all come from a fine art background to some extent. I started going to school for illustration, but I always really was obsessed with antiquity, with art history, and working with my hands. So looking for something else, I just by chance happened to flip through the course catalog and saw that they had an antique restoration major. So it was just kind of like a light bulb went off in my head. I started working for my gilding teacher because the school actually closed down that major for various reasons. And there's maybe one other school in the entire US that has a gilding major for undergrads. So instead of going back to school, I just started apprenticing and working, and it just led on from there, just devouring as much knowledge as I can of it. Because, like you said, gilding is kind of a mystery to a lot of people. I didn't even really know what it was at the beginning. It was really great to find Jonas and Superstrata because it's a mystery, it's a problem. How to market it, how to deal with the business side of things. And since Jonas knows all of that, he knows the language, he knows what we're talking about. It's nice to have someone to have your back. That, again, just speaks the language.

[Michael Boudreau]

Right, right. And that's one of the things that most of our audience are professional designers, and my feeling is that a lot of them are not aware of the range of techniques and skills that they can find. You know, I've heard many Designers complain to me, oh, I don't know how to find talented people, you know, and this is why it's so great. Cindy, you have your studio. Jonas, you've created super strata, but I'm not sure. Jonas, do you feel that there's enough awareness of what you can offer as part of Superstar personally as doing your decorative plaster finishes, which. There's some beautiful ones on your site, but the range of things, I know for a while nobody was doing Aigle Musee. It was kind of out of fashion. It was big in the 30s and 40s, but now rooms are so layered, and I think there's an openness to it. But do these designers know how to find talents? Because I think if they knew what was out there, it would inspire them more to be more creative in their projects. That's a long winded question. Sorry.

[Jonas Everett]

No, agreed. Well, I think that's one of the problems that I'm trying to solve, which sort of goes hand in hand with what we're doing with representing artisans, is that we can be a single source for a designer to get multiple different areas of artistry for one project or multiple projects. You know, I think the awareness in general, in our general population is very different here than it is in Europe. I happened to have a call earlier today with the European nonprofit the Michelangelo foundation, and they were talking about how they have relationship with 200 organizations in Europe that are just designed to support artisans. And I was completely blown away by that because I don't blame you.

[Michael Boudreau]

I mean, as far as I know, you and Cindy are the two that I know. Nevermind. 200, right?

[Jonas Everett]

Yep, that's right.

[Michael Boudreau]

It's kind of astounding. So I guess, and hopefully this podcast will help with creating awareness. But one of the things I'd love to know is, like, I remember when I was at El Decor, we did a special section on Paris, and one of the things we were saying in Europe, there's a much more awareness and there are so many things that you have access to in Paris. Like, you know, one of my favorite things, and I don't. I haven't seen it in such a long time and I didn't even know is, you know, straw marquetry. It was a favorite. Jean Michel Franck. You know, is there anybody in the United States that does draw marquetry anymore? I don't even know.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Very few and far between.

[Michael Boudreau]

Cindy, what about. Have you ever had a client, a designer come to you and say we wanted to use. That's just one example. Straw marquetry or Something.

[Cindy Symes]

No, that's not anything we've ever done. I mean, there are some like, we belong to the society, Society of guilders. I think Leah does as well. I mean, they do promote on the.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Board of trustees there.

[Cindy Symes]

Yeah, that's one organization that has sent people our way. You know, we belong to icaa, which is more the classical architecture and art. But it is true. There's not a lot of, like, artisan guilds in the United States. And so I'm very curious to hear more of what Jonas was saying.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah. So, Jonas, how many different artisans are part of the superstrata collecta and what's the range of skills that they have?

[Jonas Everett]

We currently have seven artisans who are part of our collective. And plaster finishes, cast plasters, egla maze gilding, wallpapers. We can do either turn hand painted things into digital papers, or we can do hand painted wallpapers, painted floors, murals, all kinds of decorative paint finishes. We don't encompass everything, but we're encompassing a lot. And we're seeking to do more. I mean, I think creating a space that designers can come to. The more things that we offer them, the more value we create for them, but the more value we create for all of the artisans too, because we're attracting more designers that way. And I think this show is gonna do a lot. I think it's really great. And I applaud the effort, I hope.

[Michael Boudreau]

Well, as I said, I hear from so many designers, they can't find the kind of skilled artists and the craftsmen that they're looking for. And, you know, people can't find you. Like, Leah, have you ever gone through a period where it was like you didn't have enough work and you thought, this business isn't gonna work out for me? Like, at the beginning, maybe early on.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

It'S never really been that dire, thankfully.

[Michael Boudreau]

Good, I'm glad to hear it.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

But, you know, I think really the main thing is once you get the ball rolling, you start to meet more and more people. And I have my own company, but I also work for other companies. So if things are slow with my own personal projects, I have, you know, five or six companies that I work for on their teams on a regular basis. So I'll just reach out to them and be like, hey, you know, I have some availability. I can hop in this week. I also do consulting for other people. You know, I teach sometimes I go to conferences, things like that.

[Michael Boudreau]

Pass out those business cards.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Yeah.

[Michael Boudreau]

Cynthia, how about your studio? Do most of your projects come through designers? And are most of Them residential, or is it more commercial or half and half?

[Cindy Symes]

Most of ours are residential. When we first started our business here in Chicago, we were doing a lot of hospitality, and it slowly morphed into more residential. And I would say 90% through interior designers and architects. Those seem to be our preferred clients. They know what the project is about. They know the aesthetic, the room or the space, what they're looking for. They know the budget and what we do. It's kind of a puzzle. And that's what I love about it, because a designer will come to us and say, we're doing this home. It's got a little bit of an art deco flair to it, or this is the color scheme. And I really enjoy that process of working with designers and architects and trying to see how our work fits into the whole project. Not to say we don't ever get. Usually if we get direct clients, they're a repeat client. That maybe we did something four, 15 years ago. You know, the designer's not there anymore or something like. Or maybe someone will see us on Instagram or something like that. But generally it comes through interior designers, and they're more repeat clients where they'll call us for several projects a year, like this project. I need this, and another one.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Jonas Superstrata has a very beautiful presence on Instagram. And has that led to more clients coming to you directly as opposed to through a designer? Which I could see, as Cindy was saying, I think you would prefer a designer because they're professional, they understand the ramifications, they understand the possibilities more. But because what all of you do, what, Leah, what you do is so visually enticing, I would think. Think that more people would be reaching out to you directly. Is that the case, or am I just crazy?

[Jonas Everett]

We get some people reaching out to us directly, but what we're trying to do on Instagram and through our email campaigns is to educate and inform, you know, whoever wants that information on what's possible, who are the people doing it. A little bit about their personalities, their skills, projects they've worked on is to create a dialogue and to inform. I love working with designers. There's a commonality of the language. Especially after 20 years of doing this. I really appreciate that collaborative attitude when we can work together, especially if it's a, you know, an artisan and a designer and myself and, you know, we can really get the creative juices flowing, and some really stunning, beautiful things come out of that that just one of us wouldn't have come up with on our own.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah. I'm a big believer in collaboration. I mean, it's, you know, when I worked on magazines, you know, I have a great team. It's so much stronger than anything I would have come up on my own.

[Jonas Everett]

You know, collaboration's everything to me. It's all about the people who you're working with. You know, do they have a positive attitude? Are they willing to collaborate? Are they willing to hear ideas? Are they willing to provide and share ideas and be open? Those are the best projects.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

That's what first attracted me to Jonas's company really is the collaborative aspect of it and just working and meeting other artisans. I think it's so important.

[Michael Boudreau]

So I want to switch gears a little bit and I would like to find out from each of you and maybe we'll start with you, Leah, what's something like a technique or a project that you would have always wanted to do or you wish that more people would ask you to do? Like something that's not as current maybe, or it's not as in fashion or whatever, but you'd love to do more of this or you see underutilized in projects.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Well, I think again with gilding, the main challenge is letting designers and people know the endless range of possibilities because they usually think of it, if they know what it is at all, they usually think of it as one thing. And I can't tell you how many just flat gilded ceilings I've done. And so the challenge, bread and butter, baby. I mean, hey, it's great and I love being up on a scaffold. But I think the challenge is really opening people's eyes to all of the creative possibilities. I mean, with Vera Egla Muse, with large scale gilded murals with all of the different texture, all of the different types of leaf, everything like that is just kind of maybe getting a client or a designer to give you a little free rein in terms of creativity.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Cindy, what about your studio? Oh, is there something that you love to do and you don't get asked enough or you have an artisan that you know how talented they are and you just wish that because I'm trying to plant the idea in these designers minds that they should be thinking, you know, about different things?

[Cindy Symes]

Well, a little bit. What Leah said, we've been working on new prototypes, like a series we try to do once a year, you know, or in our slower times, like series of new ideas. And I have been focusing with Jorge also on some more gilding ideas. We recently did a showcase house selling where we were inlaying Moon Gold into a white gold. And that's hard to do. You can't really tape the leaf. So we were having to use very fine masking tape, like 8th inch masking tape, to divide the different types of leaf. I'd love to do more of that. We've been doing some more contemporary floral patterns with leaf. Very just kind of gold on white. And I also, I saw something I've had on my. My desk for a while that was like a golden white Parisian design, as if you took a black and white photo and made it very graphic, just black and white, and then did the black and gold and the rest in off white or something. So that's something I've been thinking, how can I use that somewhere? I mean, gilding's not a large part of our business. It's maybe 15% or 10, but that's something.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah. Now maybe it'll grow. Jonas, what about you with superstrata and your own plaster work?

[Jonas Everett]

Well, I was just thinking about what Leah was saying, and she and I are working on a project right now where there's relief in the surface and there's mixed media and inlays of different, like she mentioned, different leaves. But she's also going to be using some shell materials and things like that and really getting into three dimensions. And that's an area that excites me with all of the artisans that we're working. And there's more and more I'm seeing artisans getting interested in working in three dimensions, whether bas relief panels or hand tooling troweled plasters so that you have either a striated surface or a combed surface or tooling troweled plasters and then gilding on them. That's something that Eva Pep has been doing a lot of bar relief where she's incorporating tooled finishes with then either a paint finish or some gilding on it. Very really beautiful, stunning pieces.

[Michael Boudreau]

Okay, here's another question. And Cindy, I'll ask you. Do you think that clients understand the value of the time it takes to do handcrafted things? Because, you know, we're in such a rushed world. Everybody was freaking out during COVID that things were 16 weeks delivery to buy a sofa, whatever. But your projects, the projects that you guys all do, can take months and months. And do you think people are getting better about understanding the value of that?

[Cindy Symes]

Yes and no. I mean, sometimes we're faster than, like, say, ordering a wallpaper. Especially after Covid, it was like, well, that's true too.

[Michael Boudreau]

That's a good point.

[Cindy Symes]

Sometimes, like, oh, I can turn that around for you in six weeks. You know, other people.

[Michael Boudreau]

That is a very good point. Okay. I'm proud of that. Yeah.

[Cindy Symes]

I find the best way to. Is when someone comes into the studio, it's like all of a sudden they light up or their eyes, they start to understand it more and see it and touch it and kind of like a candy store for designers. But even the clients, I think when they're able to see the artist at work and touch the materials and see the difference. So I find usually the best way is for them to come into the studio with the designer, if possible. Or we also send out a lot of samples all around the country so that, you know, they can touch them, they can see the difference, and see what it feels like. I mean, we get compared a lot to wallpaper. Wallpaper would be a lot less, you know, and depending on the wallpaper, I guess. But we really personalize things more, and I think that's what makes it special. You know, we customize it to the room, to the scale. We personalize it a lot to the client. Sometimes they're giving us images or something, a travel or something special that we're bringing into it. So I think it is an education process with a client, you know, to see the value in it.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

I think a lot of times people don't really get it until they see the work actually being done in front of their eyes, and that's when they light up. You know, they'll start off being like, well, can't you just rush this a little? Can't this. You know, why can't you do it like this? But then when they actually see the gilding being done and they touch the material and they watch what we do, physically, they go, oh, oh, okay. Hi, everybody.

[Ana Brockway]

I'm Ana Brockway, co founder and president of Cherish, and I'm here to remind interior designers that our extended return policy policy is ending on October 31st. For a limited time, Cherish is extending our return window for trade members only from two to a full 14 days. Don't miss the opportunity to access the best return policy in the industry. It's time to get shopping. For more information, visit cherish.comtrade that's C H A I R I S H. And now back to the show.

[Michael Boudreau]

Jonas, does Superstrata have, like, a. I mean, not a showroom, but do you have a space? Cause I think there's nothing more wonderful than to see an artist or an artisan at work, you know, and to. As you were saying, Cindy, when They see that. And Leah, you know, when they see you at work, then they understand, oh, this is not a two hour. It's not like, you know, painting a wall with a paintbrush. So how do you convey that? How does Superstrata convey that?

[Jonas Everett]

We do a lot of meetings in offices, in design offices. We'll bring samples in and do a presentation, and we'll curate that towards the aesthetic of what we think that office will be interested in and perhaps stretch it a little bit further so that we're really getting some ideas flowing. And I recently did that where I brought two of the artisans in with me to do a presentation. I thought that was a really fun experience because you can. You kind of go get into a flow state with people when you. You're looking at something or showing something to somebody and they're seeing it for the first time, it's something they never thought maybe was possible. And then you start to explain to them how that could be iterated on, and you could change it. You could do this, you could do that, and you can really just. The ideas can just start really flowing. And that is one of my favorite experiences in this role that I have.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah, you take the show on the road, so to speak.

[Jonas Everett]

Well, yeah, I mean, we have plans to have a space for people to come to eventually. It certainly would make it a lot easier than schlepping large bags of samples around Manhattan, but we send things out via mail, too. But I think that the thing that Cindy touched on that's so important is that personal connection, ideally face to face, where you can talk and look and touch and get a sense of what the materials are, and then you can talk about the processes, and then you can start talking about how that can be iterated if you change this material or this process. And then when you get the artisan talking about some of the things that they've done and they bring ideas in that nobody else thought of, and then suddenly you're starting to get something that this designer is going to get, something that's really unique and maybe hasn't existed anywhere before.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah. And I think what, Cindy, what you were saying about personalization, too, that when you can incorporate little bits of narrative from their life or images they love, or there's birds, it's their favorite birds, or, you know, there's all kinds of things that you can make it because, you know, people love to say to their friends and neighbors, oh, look, this is special. They love us. You know, I always say that when I was at El Decor, people love A story that they. What's the narrative? As I found this at the Paris flea market, or I found this in Morocco when I was traveling. You know, this mural or this plaster wall incorporates something, and I think that's really a special thing. But of course, you know, people have to know that that's possible for them to have. And I guess that's part of the problem. But I think, you know, Jonas, as you were saying, if you eventually and you know, commercial rents are supposedly going down in New York, we'll see, you know, maybe have a space where you could have examples of all of your artisans. Work would be great. You know, it's beautiful on Instagram, but you know, that personal face to face story and explanation and people getting to touch things is really powerful, you know, so absolutely.

[Jonas Everett]

Instagram is wonderful, but it can only go so far.

[Cindy Symes]

And going back to the murals, what you said is that's one of the things I love the most, are doing murals in the studio. Jorge tends to develop most of our eglanase, but I always. Murals are one of my favorite and I do love personalizing them. Like we had a dining room in Lake Forest, one of the north suburbs here, and they had adopted two little girls from China. So they gave me pictures of the different towns that the girls came from. It was kind of a panoramic mural, very stylized, very like chinoiserie or another home. Maybe we're hiding something in monograms, in sounds cute, but in butterflies. Or, you know, we're always trying to tell a little story that personalizes. And what I also like is when you buy like a wallpaper panoramic mural, many times you can't adjust it to the room where we can say, okay, you're gonna have a mirror there. We're gonna focus on these corners. You're gonna have a buffet here or sconces there. We're gonna work around those. And then who knows, Maybe they gave me pictures from their trip to, like you said, Morocco. Or they give me pictures from something. It's really important to us to make it meaningful when we're doing murals for the client.

[Michael Boudreau]

Okay, I'd love to get a sense of. I mean, we're all talking about the value of working with designers, but what's something that I don't want to say it's a problem if you've had a problem working with a designer. But what is something. Leah, maybe you can start with this. What is something you wish that the designer client understood better or wouldn't question you about, or that they Wouldn't be stupid about, shall we say, I think.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

You know, it's always the triangle of time value. And, you know, like, you can get something done fast and cheap, but it won't be good. You know, you can't have all of these three things. And so that is always the challenge to get the designer to understand that, like, and, oh, well, maybe we'll just offer this cheap material and then it's like, oh, but it might not look as good if you do that. Or, oh, well, can't you just get it done really fast? And well, then I have to charge a little bit more. And so it's always that push and pull is step number one the dance.

[Jonas Everett]

Yes.

[Michael Boudreau]

And, Cindy, what's one of the frustrations that your studio has working with designers?

[Cindy Symes]

I would say maybe some of the bureaucracy. When we're working on very high end luxury design. There's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Sometimes we're getting contracts these days that are 70 pages long or 80 pages long, or NDAs, you know.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Yeah, complete with NDAs and everything.

[Cindy Symes]

Yeah. Where I miss the days where, you know, you just. It's you, the designer and the client and you're getting direct feedback. Because sometimes now there's, you know, an architectural firm that might be in New York or an interior designer that might be in LA and an owner's rep and, you know, there's a lot more layers maybe than there used to be where, not to say I don't have the clients, where you have the direction, but it's the layers. Maybe sometimes it is hard when there's.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

So many steps between the designer and the client and who you're talking to. And then. Oh, and then you have to talk to the GC about this part, and then you have to talk to, you know, this other person about this part and so many things get lost.

[Michael Boudreau]

Yeah. And I imagine it's like that game of telephone where by the end it's like totally distorted.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Exactly.

[Michael Boudreau]

Jonas, what is one of your frustrations?

[Jonas Everett]

I hope this isn't a sticky subject. So a lot of the artisans that I work with have expressed sometimes that there's a little reluctance, maybe share their very best samples. And it's because at some point in their career, they've been handed a sample by another artist and asked to do something to copy that or something like that. So what I've realized is that designers often aren't getting to see the very best work that artisans have to offer. Because I think a lot of artisans are holding back. They're Saying, I don't think I want to just send out my very best idea unless it's for a project that I know I've got and it's going to be my project, then I'm going to put my best self forward. So I think that if we could do something about that process, I think that designers would be maybe a little surprised that they would start to see better and better and more interesting, diverse, unique samples from artisans.

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Absolutely.

[Cindy Symes]

Yeah. If you're guaranteed that they're not going to be passed around, because that happens. I've had my samples sometimes cut in half, and sometimes I even had somebody say, oh, I gave half to one person and half to another, and they couldn't really quite accomplish it.

[Michael Boudreau]

Exactly. You're bad enough to do and stupid to do, and you're telling me that's amazing.

[Cindy Symes]

I think most designers have a lot of integrity in that sense, but they're. You know. It does indeed.

[Jonas Everett]

And sometimes it's just this artisan is out of business or there's extenuating circumstances. But I know. I hear from artisans that they are shy often about just being liberal with their samples, and I think that the whole industry would benefit from protecting those samples, that's all.

[Michael Boudreau]

So I want to flip the coin here and talk about how do you find new or younger artisans? How do you convince people that becoming an artisan, doing the training, doing the apprenticeship is worth it? We're at a point where college enrollment is down. College is hugely expensive. So many young people are leaving with student debt that they can't afford, then they can't find jobs, whereas there's a shortage of whether it's a plumber or a highly skilled artisan such as yourself. So how do we encourage more people to consider this? You know, we don't have shop class or home EC anymore, which there's talk about bringing that back and treating people who work with their hands with more respect, I would imagine. Jonas, maybe you disagree, but I would imagine it's hard for you to find almost enough artisans for the projects that come to you. Is that true, or am I off base here?

[Jonas Everett]

No, that happens where we will get asked if we can do a certain type of artistry, and we don't have somebody that can do that. You know, I think it's. It can be daunting to start out as a young artisan because you're essentially starting a business and doing something that's very special. But there are going to be periods of lag where you don't have work. And if you have any kind of overhead, that's going to be very, very difficult. You have to learn how to market yourself and do sales. And you might have to learn how to do, you know, be a bookkeeper and all these other skills that aren't native to somebody who's gone to art school. My solution is, you know, for superstrata is to be superstrated for them to be a partner with the artisan. And we take over on the business side of things. We do the sales, the marketing, the storytelling. We help with project management. We help put the proposals together so that the artisans can focus on being creative. And, you know, I don't think that's the solution for everybody, but it is a solution and it works very well for the artisans that we have.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Cindy, how do you find talent for your studio? Do you go to art schools and make presentations to art students? I mean, since you all had fun? I don't know. You know, I'm just really curious about this.

[Cindy Symes]

When we're looking for new artists, we usually do post at art schools, sometimes through the artist coalition here in Chicago. People tend to stay with us pretty long term. One of our senior artists has been with us 25 years, another 20 years. Our youngest ones, like you must be.

[Michael Boudreau]

A good boss, Cindy.

[Cindy Symes]

And we give benefits, which is very important for artists. That's a hard thing to find, is to have good benefits. But I'm very proud. We have 50 year old, 40 year olds, 30 and 20, so I like to see them learning and it kind of continuing. They do go through a two or three year apprenticeship even if they most all of them have studied fine arts. I do find it's hard to teach someone. I can't teach someone to draw or paint or to see. I can teach them all of the decorative painting techniques if they can paint realism and if they can see color and if they can, are detailed. So we do still hire most people that went through a program, either BFA or MFA in fine arts. And then they go in our studio. What we call our apprentice level is where they're pretty much stuck with one of the senior artists their first couple years. We don't get a lot of turnover, but we do have a couple, generally a couple freelancers we can rely on if we really need the extra help. But we have a very talented group of artists in the studio and they each specialize in certain things, but they overlap a lot too. And so depending on which project's coming in is, you know, who's the perfect person to paint that mural. And it's usually a team effort. There's usually two or three people at least on a project.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Leah, what about you? I mean, have you ever needed to hire like assistants to help you with big projects?

[Leah Beth Fishman]

Oh, yeah, pretty frequently. I think what I've encountered is, you know, there's not a lack of workers, but there's a lot of lack of quality sometimes, you know, I can't tell you how many projects I've actually taken over from people who were painters or decorative painters that said, oh, I thought gilding was just something I could pick up. And I said yes to this project. But I just realized that I'm kind of in over my head and I need you to instruct or help or just take over the project in general. And I think back to what we were talking about. The Society of Guilders is a really great resource because we teach classes and our mission is just to focus on traditional techniques and overseeing quality and vetting our teachers in the classes. I also teach classes at various conferences. So we know that at least, you know, people who have taken some of those classes have more of a handle on it. And luckily from freelancing and from the Society of Gilders, I feel like I have a built in network of a pool of people that I trust that maybe like five to 10 people that are in my rolordecks, that are in the first calls that I make when I need more people on the job. And the Society of Guilders has a state by state directory. So I can say, oh, you know what, I have a job in North Carolina, but there's not enough budget to hire out of town. So I'd like to hire somebody local. Is there anybody who knows somebody that they trust that can help me on this project?

[Michael Boudreau]

Okay, so Jonas, we'll start with you. What would be your advice to somebody who's probably in art school, let us say, but is thinking about going into becoming a decorative artist? What would you say? Avoid it like the plague. You'll never make enough money.

[Jonas Everett]

I would sort of echo some of what Leah just said. I would find other like minded people and start to build a network and find a company or multiple companies that you can start to freelance for or go work for a company like Cindy's where you can apprentice under somebody for extended period of time and get your feet wet and see how you like it. You might find that maybe you start out gilding and you realize you see somebody over on the other side of the studio casting plaster. You think, wow, I want to do that or I just think you. Until you, you know, you kind of jump in, you know, and here, like, we've talked about this a lot here in the States, we don't have, you know, an extensive apprentice system. We don't have a network of schools and organizations that are supporting people to train them from a young age. Anyone I know who has gone through extensive training typically has done it by going over to Europe and doing it there. But I think, you know, if you've gone through a basic BFA program, you probably have a good basis on understanding of the materials and processes where you could jump in. If you have the right attitude, you can jump in and be an asset to somebody.

[Michael Boudreau]

And Cindy, do you think that people now regard artisans and the people, you know, your team, your. Do you think there's more respect for them now than there used to be? I feeling that there is. The status is being slowly elevated of people who work, you know, are really skilled, talented craftspeople. People are beginning to. Outside of designers, who I think always appreciated, and some of their clients, not all of them, but I'm sure. But do you think in the general, in our general society, there is more appreciation for what you and your team does?

[Cindy Symes]

I think it's been growing probably because of Instagram and some of the social media and the people have been more familiar with it. So, yes, I do think so. I mean, we get the whole range. We can be on a construction site and, you know, it's dirty, it's whatever. And, you know, people are kind of treating you like, you know, the construction worker. And then you could be in a super high end, you know, apartment down in the Gold coast and they're calling you the artiste and like bringing you.

[Michael Boudreau]

Coffee and, you know, that's what you want. More of. That's what we want to get cheap for you guys. Coffee and snacks.

[Cindy Symes]

That's what we want. Could I go back to the education part, though, to say something?

[Michael Boudreau]

Of course, of course.

[Cindy Symes]

Yeah. What I found, you know, many times people ask me about, you know, my son or daughter wants to go into fine arts. What do you think? You know, can you make a living at that, like you said, and parents.

[Michael Boudreau]

Always want to know.

[Cindy Symes]

I know. And I mean, we're not going to be millionaires. We're the first to say that in this business. But we're going to do what we love, you know, and what we're passionate about and hopefully get paid for it. But I do find a lot of artists coming out of even some of the very big name art schools are coming out with a lot of loans and not a lot of classes in things that matter. Like Jonah said, you also have to be a PR person. You're also the bookkeeper. You're also. So my advice always to them is sometimes I think it's almost better to pick a school that has a good art program, but isn't necessarily only a focused art school where they could take a class in marketing, where they could take a class in accounting, so they come out a little more well rounded as a student. Because I've had, you know, coming to me right out of school to interview that have a $150,000, $200,000 in loans or something, and they're starting out as an artist. You know, that's my advice usually is no matter where you're going to school is to broaden because everyone's not going to come out and become a gallery artist. And that's what I think sometimes a lot of schools are teaching is that if you're doing something else, you're kind of selling out. Where many artists would be so happy doing what we do and working with our hands. And I'd love to see a curriculum expand. Like Leah said, you know, that there's a course in gilding, there's a course in mural painting or in other arts. Like, I mean, many of the most famous artists in Europe always worked in murals and interiors, you know, back in.

[Michael Boudreau]

The day, totally doing tapestries and sculpture, decorative furniture, all that stuff.

[Cindy Symes]

Yeah, so that's my two cents in education.

[Michael Boudreau]

No, I think that's a very, very good point. I don't think there's enough wall space in all the houses in America for the paintings of all the young people who wanna become painters. You know, I mean, it's just, it's not always the, you know, I love painters, don't get me wrong. But, you know, not everybody's going to be, you know, Ellsworth Kelly or John Curran. So, you know, I think this is another reason that hopefully this podcast will get people to think about how much richness and beauty you guys and your teams and the other artisans that you work with can bring to projects. And once they see what you do, it's only gonna spark their creativity further. Like we were saying, collaboration is so crucial. So I really appreciate all three of you coming here and talking about what you do, because I think that if I had my life to do over again, I think I would wanna be an artisan. You know, I mean, I really want to thank my wonderful guests, Leah Beth Fishman, Cindy Symes and Jonas Everett and thank all of you for listening to Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was recently voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email [e-mail] the Cherish podcast is produced by Britta Muller and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.