A God-Shaped Hole in the Lives of College Students ft. Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A God-Shaped Hole in the Lives of College Students"

The Charlie Kirk Show
Host: Charlie Kirk
Guests: Cliff and Stuart Knechtle
Release Date: February 16, 2025

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Charlie Kirk Show, host Charlie Kirk welcomes his longtime friends, Cliff and Stuart Knechtle, to discuss the pervasive sense of emptiness among college students and the role of faith in addressing this "God-shaped hole." The conversation delves into the challenges and opportunities within campus ministry, the rise of moral relativism, and strategies for effectively presenting the gospel to a skeptical youth audience.

---

The Current Landscape on College Campuses

Cliff's Observations on Student Well-being
Cliff begins by highlighting the "meaning crisis" affecting today's students. He notes an alarming rise in suicide and depression rates, attributing these issues to a lack of objective purpose and meaning in life. Students are increasingly recognizing that something is fundamentally wrong in society—be it political instability, familial breakdowns, or mental health struggles—and are seeking answers beyond the prevailing culture.

“A lot of these students are coming out. They also see that there's something wrong... We think God could potentially offer some answers.”
[03:19]

Emotional Shifts Over the Decades
Stuart reflects on the emotional changes over the past 44 years, contrasting the resilience and emotional fortitude of previous generations with the current climate of emotional sensitivity. He emphasizes the necessity of addressing both intellectual and emotional aspects when engaging with students.

“There is a big difference emotionally between that versus people who have to go to a crying room to work through who won the last election.”
[04:08]

---

Moral Relativism: The Prevailing Challenge

Defining Moral Relativism
Stuart identifies moral relativism as the dominant worldview among students, asserting that the belief that "there are no moral absolutes" is tearing the social fabric apart.

“There are no moral absolutes.”
[10:06]

The Self-Defeating Nature of Relativism
Charlie counters by arguing that moral relativism is self-defeating, as it inherently requires some absolute to function, thereby negating its own premise.

“It's a self-defeating principle.”
[10:09]

Consequences of Relativism
Stuart elaborates on the societal fallout from embracing moral relativism, including increased narcissism and materialism. He warns that without a return to absolute truths, society will continue to face profound moral and psychological crises.

“The golden calf of moral relativism is me. Narcissism, self-absorption.”
[15:34]

---

The Role of the Church and Revival Potential

Church's Dual Role: Spiritual and Social
Stuart praises the church's efforts in addressing intellectual and emotional needs while emphasizing the importance of active involvement in social issues—feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting the sick.

“Preach Christ every day, if necessary, use words. And I think that there's a good strong surge in that area.”
[07:41]

Critique of the Church's Engagement
Charlie offers a critical perspective, suggesting that the church is not sufficiently engaging with young men who are gravitating towards conservatism. He underscores a missed opportunity for revival, especially among the male demographic, who deem the church irrelevant or too accommodating of contemporary "sins."

“The church seems rather scared or uninterested in actually engaging in that.”
[12:06]

Strategies for Revival
Cliff advocates for meeting people where they are, particularly addressing their suffering and needs without compromising on moral absolutes. He stresses the importance of establishing local churches to prevent students from traveling excessive distances to find a place of worship.

“You gotta talk about meeting a God-shaped hole.”
[13:21]

---

Effective Evangelism: Presenting the Gospel to Skeptics

Tailoring Evangelistic Approaches
Cliff recommends using the approaches depicted in Acts Chapter 10, which showcase diverse methods of engaging with seekers—rational dialogue, addressing the need for miracles, and providing justice—to effectively present the gospel.

“Read Acts chapter 8... it's a waste of time if... somebody tell us, should you keep engaging?”
[17:50]

Maintaining Integrity in Evangelism
The conversation emphasizes the importance of maintaining personal integrity while meeting people where they are. Charlie and Cliff agree that while adapting methods is necessary, compromising core Christian values, such as refraining from profanity, is non-negotiable.

“You should never sin to try to evangelize for sure.”
[19:55]

Training and Scholarship
Cliff underscores the necessity of extensive reading and intellectual preparation to effectively defend and communicate the faith. Memorizing scripture and understanding cultural contexts are highlighted as crucial for engaging thoughtfully with students.

“I try and bring in from different angles... memorization is huge.”
[21:52]

---

Overcoming Fear and Embracing Faith

Personal Stories of Courage
Stuart shares a powerful anecdote about overcoming fear to preach in an inner-city bar, illustrating the transformative power of faith. He highlights how recalling biblical heroes can bolster courage and conviction in the face of rejection.

“Fear is the opposite of faith. And when I grow in faith... we are going to uncompromisingly stand for the truth of Jesus Christ.”
[24:32]

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Charlie expressing optimism about the potential for a religious revival among college students, despite current challenges. Cliff and Stuart reiterate their commitment to defending the faith and encouraging others to engage thoughtfully and passionately with those seeking meaning and truth.

“Keep going, brother.”
[24:41]

---

Key Takeaways

• Meaning Crisis: College students are grappling with a lack of purpose, leading to increased mental health issues.
• Moral Relativism: The dominant worldview among youth undermines societal and personal moral frameworks.
• Church Engagement: There is a critical need for the church to actively engage with young men and address both spiritual and social needs.
• Effective Evangelism: Tailored, respectful approaches based on biblical examples are essential for meaningful dialogue.
• Faith Over Fear: Personal courage rooted in faith is vital for impactful ministry.

---

Notable Quotes

• “A lot of these students are... We think God could potentially offer some answers.”
  - Cliff [03:19]

• “There are no moral absolutes.”
  - Stuart [10:06]

• “The golden calf of moral relativism is me. Narcissism, self-absorption.”
  - Stuart [15:34]

• “You should never sin to try to evangelize for sure.”
  - Charlie Kirk [19:55]

• “Fear is the opposite of faith... we are going to uncompromisingly stand for the truth of Jesus Christ.”
  - Stuart [24:32]

---

This comprehensive discussion offers valuable insights into the spiritual void experienced by today's youth and underscores the imperative for the church to adapt its strategies without compromising its foundational truths. Cliff and Stuart's experiences and perspectives provide a roadmap for effectively addressing the existential questions plaguing college students, advocating for a balanced approach that respects both intellectual rigor and emotional sensitivity.

Transcript

[Charlie Kirk]

Hey, everybody. My conversation with Cliff and Stuart connectly in studio. It's an exclusive conversation. You'll love it. If you want to listen to this conversation and more, become a member [e-mail] that is members.charliekirk.Com Also, get involved with TurningPoint [e-mail] that is tpusa.com Email us. As always, Freedomarliekirk.com Buckle up, everybody. Here we go.

[Cliff]

Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

[Stuart]

Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

[Unknown]

I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa.

[Charlie Kirk]

We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives. And we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble gold [e-mail] that is noblegoldinvestments.com it's where I buy all of my gold. Go to noblegoldinvestments.com okay. We are here with my friends Cliff and Stuart. Connectly. It's been a while, guys. Good to see you both.

[Cliff]

Good to see you, Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And the world is different, I think, in a little bit of a better place than when we were meeting back in.

[Stuart]

Why would that be, Charlie?

[Charlie Kirk]

I have no idea. The weather.

[Cliff]

That's why Christmas lights were brighter.

[Stuart]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

But really enjoyed spending time with you guys. And you both go to college campuses in a similar fashion that I do. And if the audience is not aware of it, you go and kind of hold court and you sometimes go for multiple days in a row. Is that right? You guys go for two, three, four days?

[Cliff]

Yeah. We're trying to shorten it now so we get to more schools.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that right?

[Cliff]

But it used to always be four.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so just to remind the audience, how did you guys get into this? I mean, obviously started with you going on these campuses speaking to students. It's been multiple decades.

[Stuart]

Well, I think that was probably before you were born.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's right.

[Stuart]

The first time I did open air was during an intervarsity beach evangelism project in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, in 1980 and stood up on the beach there with the intervarsity students and began to preach. And people hopped off their towels. And I found out real quickly they didn't want to hear a sermon, but they wanted to show me what a fool I was for believing in Jesus. And so we developed a dialogue method. They just would fire questions and I would answer. And then we started. I'll never forget, the first campus was SUNY Albany up in upstate New York, and just haven't stopped since.

[Charlie Kirk]

So this open air. I like that term. And how did you get drug into this? You were raised going to these.

[Cliff]

Raised going to these. Yeah. Driving to school every morning in the car. He would definitely put us on the hot seat, answer some of these tough questions, and then went to seminary and naturally just flowed.

[Charlie Kirk]

Doing this for the last couple of years. What trends are you seeing on these campuses? Good, bad, troubling, promising?

[Cliff]

Very good. Shockingly good.

[Charlie Kirk]

Tell us more.

[Cliff]

I wish I could. I still can't figure it out, honestly, because I get that question a lot. I think there's a meaning crisis. A lot of these students don't know what their meaning and purpose in life is objectively. So when we ask them that, there's a lot of, ooh, pauses. And so a lot of these students are coming out. They also see that there's something wrong. There's been something wrong over the last however many years. Whether it be political, whether it be their parents having divorce, whether it be a psychological health issue. I think they're just waking up to, there's something wrong. There's been something wrong in our nation. What is it? And we think that God could potentially offer some answers.

[Charlie Kirk]

The long period of time you've been seeing it, you think things are not more promising in the last couple of years, meaning more people are interested, more people are stopping, more people are asking questions a bit.

[Stuart]

It fluctuates. And over the past 44 years, I've seen a lot of ups and downs. The questions have remained consistently the same, but the emotions, I think, is really what are different. I think there's a big difference between my dad, who at the age of 18 held a gun in the Alps in Switzerland, part of the Swiss army as he watched Hitler's Panzer divisions come up and stop right on the border of Switzerland. A lot of difference emotionally between that versus people who have to go to a crying room to work through who won the last election. That is a big shift emotionally. So I'm very grateful for Stuart and for his emotional sensitivity, his counseling background, because we have to be sharp in how we address people not just intellectually, but emotionally as well.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you see an increased amount of curiosity from these students trying to pursue truth and meaning?

[Stuart]

I don't know. I debated Madeline Murray O'Hare years ago at the University of Texas, Austin, and there was a lot of intellectual curiosity and there was a lot of more intense back and forth. And that's what I miss a bit. I miss a bit of the post Vietnam War, the hippie movement, the free speech movement in Berkeley, where there was a willingness to really go at it and to understand that even though we are going at it, we're not being disrespectful, but we are strongly disagreeing. So I miss a little bit of that. That's why I was alluding to the emotional sensitivity and the need to be more careful emotionally. So that's been a bit of a change.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so you're pinpointing something promising. How do you quantify the promising or the uplifting elements that you're witnessing?

[Cliff]

Yeah, a lot of these. You know, what is it? The suicide and depression rates have risen exponentially. You have divorce rates risen exponentially. And so I would say we live in a therapeutic age and we need to make America think again, more clearly because there's been so much emotionalism and looking inward. And we know that the more you look inward, unfortunately, the more issues you have, the more you look outward and upward, the healthier you are. And so people are looking for a God, some type of God, and then they're looking outward to hopefully help community in some kind of way. And that's when they get the healthiest. And we know traditionally before this therapeutic age, over the last five to 10 years, that's what our nation was all about. Our nation was all about God first, nation second. And that brought great psychological health and gave people meaning versus now they don't know who they are.

[Charlie Kirk]

It is without a doubt the sickest generation, both mentally, physically, emotional, emotionally, nutritionally sick. Has the church stepped up to try to offer, of course, the ultimate healing which is in Jesus. Do you think the church has met the moment?

[Stuart]

Yes, in many ways. No, in other ways. I am very, very grateful for the church, for the emphasis on the intellect. Let's think through this stuff honestly. For the emphasis on emotions, let's be thoughtful and careful the way we talk. And for the spiritual, obviously, that we need Christ to fill that God shaped vacuum at the center of our being. And for the physical, that we need to get off our backsides and start feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those sick and imprisoned and the growth in involvement with hurting people who are physically hurting, I think is a tremendous statement. Preach Christ every day, if necessary, use words. And I think that there's a good strong surge in that area.

[Charlie Kirk]

So. So it's fair to say you guys are apologists? Is that fair to say? I mean, how would you describe even what you do to someone who doesn't know?

[Cliff]

Defenders of the faith. I try and, I don't know, steer clear of the word apologist because so many people don't know what it is.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[Cliff]

It's such a Christianese kind of term.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[Cliff]

That's why I steer clear of it. I try and come at it from a psychological. I'm a psychologist as well as a pastor, as well as some type of philosophical elements to my speaking. So I try and bring in from different angles.

[Charlie Kirk]

So defender of the faith doing this, how you've done, what do you think? What have you learned to make you better at defending the faith that you wish you would have known a decade ago?

[Cliff]

Oh, I think people can become too myopic in just reading the scripture and having kind of carbon copy classical arguments on how to defend the faith. I think a worldview takes an emotional angle, a cultural angle, an intellectual angle, an experiential angle, and you can get too myopic in just one of those. It's just my emotional experience and I believe in Christ. And this is how your needs can be met just from an emotional experience? Yes, that's part of it. But you also have to answer the intellectual issues and you also have to say, does the gospel meet the biggest cultural issues? You know, the sociologist Christian Smith, one of my favorite sociologists out of Notre Dame, talked about, the more they're studying the doctrine of sin and how it's good going away in a culture of relativism. The more you see the breakdown in so many of the greatest traditions, institutions, and the more that doctrine leaves, the more issues we're going to have at a cosmic sociological and psychological level.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you were to. You've heard every argument under the sun. They just get repurposed and repackaged. But does every era and every age. I'm sure some arguments are surfaced more than others during the Free Love movement. It's like, you know, don't tell me what to do. And what, what is. What age are we in? What is the common denominator, one, two or three arguments you hear the most? For example, if I were to guess, it would be who's to say that your religion is right or why Are you to tell me, is that more deconstructionist, more questioning? What would you say is the common argument you're hearing in this era, either one of you?

[Stuart]

Moral relativism has a grip on people's thinking. Everything's relative.

[Charlie Kirk]

Explain that to someone who doesn't know what moral relativism is.

[Stuart]

There are no moral absolutes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that absolutely true?

[Cliff]

That's right.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a self defeating principle.

[Stuart]

It sure is.

[Charlie Kirk]

I actually don't think moral relativism exists. That's a. I think the concept can exist, but in practice it's not possible.

[Stuart]

Exactly. I agree totally. So you're gonna have to make decisions whether you're gonna pay your tax by some standard. Right, Exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

Sorry to interrupt, but.

[Stuart]

No, no problem. So immoral relativism has a grip on people's thinking. That's tragic. And I think you're right. It's self contradictory. Secondly, don't tell me what to do. That's being judgmental and bigoted. Instead, I'm going to do whatever I want to do and just back off. And yet, Charlie, that's exactly what you read about in the Bible. I mean, the end of the Book of Judges. Every man did what was right in his own eyes. I mean, that's moral relativism. Just do whatever you think is right in your own eyes. Then there's the whole issue of science and faith contradict each other. That's baloney.

[Charlie Kirk]

That one's so easy. I mean, that one.

[Stuart]

Sorry, there's no chemistry.

[Charlie Kirk]

Actually.

[Stuart]

Exactly. It is the opposite. There's no chemistry, no physics, no geology anywhere in the Bible. So how can science contradict a book that doesn't have any science in it? So it's ridiculous. Then there's the whole issue of hope. And I'm convinced that in America today, we don't want to think about death. We want to take an anesthesia called apathy or perform an acting job worthy of an Academy Award. That's the way we deal with death. Just don't think. And Jesus Christ, I find so refreshing in the way he says, peace, I leave with you. My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled. Do not be afraid. And I think fear comes from. I thought I was in control. Oh no. I'm being confronted by my finiteness now. I'm beginning to be scared. Yeah, that's true. And that's why we need God, who's bigger than death, who's bigger than any power or force of Evil or injustice. So yeah, people are really hurting and really need Christ in a desperate way.

[Charlie Kirk]

The trajectory, the trend is not good. The west is becoming less religious. Europe is already done, unfortunately. I mean that it's like a husk of its former self. The question is, when are we going to see revival? My opinion of which is not shared by everyone, is that there is the greatest opportunity for revival in front of us. The church is just not engaging. And so I'm far more critical of the church than you're much nicer than I am. But I mean, for example, we have millions of young men that we reach that are coming to conservatism. And they say, yeah, the church is irrelevant. It is too open to the sins of the day. Doesn't speak for me. They have this feminine spirit. They are socially relativist. And so there's this incredible harvest. I'm sure you see it especially with young men. And the church seems rather scared or uninterested in actually engaging in that. So the trend, we are seeing a slight uptick in religious curiosity to get young people interested in the faith and give their life to Christ. So what can we do better in that regard and also to confront this malaise of moral relativism?

[Cliff]

Meet people where they're at in their suffering. I really think we need to do that in a culture that is more and more addicted to comfort every day. You see those that are addicted to comfort, those nations that are, you're gonna have problems, tremendous breakdown. And so for arrival you gotta talk about meeting a God shaped hole. And I'm not one of these pastors who likes to talk about numbers at their church. But I will say we have kids driving five, six hours Saturday nights and sleeping in their cars and coming to our church Sunday morning.

[Charlie Kirk]

But that's a problem. Why don't they have a church near them? Like, that's why we tell them that first of all, you're doing a great job.

[Cliff]

But no, it could be way better though.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying that they should, they should.

[Cliff]

Be in the local church.

[Charlie Kirk]

There should be a hundred churches on the way to your church.

[Cliff]

Yes, that's exactly right. And so for us, we don't want to turn it into a social movement. You could throw a rock from our building and hit about 20 buildings near us. And it's just a social club.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's in Connecticut, right?

[Cliff]

Yeah, in Connecticut. And they've got the rainbow flags, every single one of them. And so it's dedication to truth first and foremost. And we Believe that ultimately it's how to save souls and then secondarily how to go about pushing for justice. But if you lose the moral absolutes that we're talking about from the perspective of Judeo Christian worldview, well, then all these social justice movements, they're just going to peter out, break down, and what are they really after?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, the moral relativism. Do you see alternatively, any sort of other competing worldview that has, that is. That is finding. For example, we're not seeing, I don't think Islam grow amongst young students on campus. Is it pagan? Is it Buddhist? Is it New Age? Because I'm sure you've seen it all throughout the years where students might have a more Buddhist perspective or whatever, or the power of now. But you're saying right now it is basically one of the darker ones, which is that there is no truth. Don't tell me how to live. If you were to anticipate the next move, where does that lead them if not towards Christ? What fills that void? Because eventually there will be a counterfeit worldview. Moral relativism is not there to stay. Eventually they will have to. They're going to want to find a golden calf to worship at. What is that?

[Stuart]

Well, let's be honest. The golden calf of moral relativism is me. Narcissism, self absorption. And when we live in a culture that so emphasizes comfort and feeling good, I mean, what's going to stop that? I mean, I'll never forget speaking at a Korean church down in Dallas, Texas. And afterwards I said to the elders who invited me out for a meal, how's the church in Korea doing? I mean, I've always been so impressed with the amount of missionaries that come out of the Korean church. And they said, it's tragic. It's falling apart. And I said, why? He said, for the same reason that the church has fallen on the part of the United States. Money. You get a lot of money, buddy, and you only need God. And why be passionate about Christ? And why be passionate about reaching people for Christ? It's all about money.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think that's exactly right.

[Stuart]

And that brings a lethargy and a spiritual apathy that is scary. So how do we combat materialism in a country that is so wedded to materialism? That is a tremendous challenge.

[Cliff]

And.

[Stuart]

And you're right. I think Stuart put it well, suffering often is what drives us. Our own mortality often drives us back to God, back to Christ. But, gosh, that's a challenge and a half.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And it's an incredible situation. Where you have a generation that is the wealthiest ever. I mean, they need and want for nothing. You go to these campuses, they are Ritz Carltons, let's just be honest. I mean, from the fitness centers to the clubs, they have saunas. I mean, it is every food you could imagine. They got cards, you know, and they're miserable. And so I think that's definitionally an indictment of materialism. I mean, they have everything materially that you could ever want. And they are the most likely to kill themselves, most likely to drug overdose, most likely. And they're just constantly pursuing the next dopamine hit. And so, yeah, I mean, look, we're talking about very macro issues. I want to try to get down because I know you guys got to get back on campus here. The sequence, if you were to like train in five minutes or less, somebody in the audience of how to present the gospel to a skeptic, how would you communicate that? What would you say if you were like, hey, I got five minutes to try to load you up before to go on campus. What would you tell that person?

[Cliff]

I would tell them, read Acts chapter 8. Three different ways to connect with three different people who are seeking. Honestly, these people have to be seeking. Honestly. There's way too many atheists who pretend to be seeking when they're truly just closed off cynics.

[Charlie Kirk]

But in Acts pretty quickly, I'm sure.

[Cliff]

Yeah, Acts chapter 10.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a waste of time if.

[Cliff]

Oh, with an atheist.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, if someone tell us, should you keep engaging?

[Cliff]

It depends if there's an audience because people always say that to these celebrity atheists who are so closed off and they're just going to say, f you, we're speaking over them to the hundreds of thousands.

[Charlie Kirk]

Totally agree, but keep going.

[Cliff]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, exactly. So it can't be a fool's errand if it's one on one. But for me, it's just right out of Acts, chapter 10. Lydia, seller of purple. Brilliant businesswoman. So what you have there is you have an encounter. A Christian comes and says, let's read the Bible together and actually ask some of these good questions on did the resurrection occur? Then you have the jailer. And so the jailer needs actually a miracle. We know tough guys typically need something supernatural to even start to ask the question. And then you have the slave girl who needs justice done in order to actually come to the even the point of saying, wow, there could be a God, because finally I see some justice in my life. So you have to meet the person where they're at figure out what are the cracks and how does God prevent me?

[Charlie Kirk]

So if I can interrupt, and I want to get back to your thought on this. When some pastors say, well, you got to meet them where they're at, that means you have to use their lingo or dress like they do or all things, all people.

[Cliff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can you clarify that we should never, ever compromise God's standards or rules for our life.

[Cliff]

I just think the Roman road or the evangel cube are kind of cheesy, cookie cutter ways of doing it. And yet you do need to present the gospel.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, for example, I have to say an F word every other, which I think is outrageous. You think things of that nature.

[Cliff]

I'm glad you think exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, I do. By the way, I'm glad. Yeah, I think it's not right.

[Cliff]

That's an issue. That's honestly an issue with a lot of Christian YouTubers right now.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I totally agree.

[Cliff]

Yeah. And so they got to steer away from that because I think there's a level of respect of a character of a person who doesn't need to curse to present it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, of course, you should never sin to try to evangelize for sure, right? That seems so self defeating, right?

[Stuart]

It sure is.

[Charlie Kirk]

I just like, if you're going to sin to try to win someone for Jesus, I think that's by definition not. Not correct. What would you say if you were to train somebody up? Do you guys do these kind of defender of faith academies where you train people on this? Not really.

[Cliff]

We're asked too often, but you kind of back out.

[Stuart]

I think the best way to train someone to share their faith is come out to the open air, watch how we dialogue with people. Junk what you don't like that we do. Embrace what you do like that we do, and then develop your own style.

[Charlie Kirk]

What I get asked all the time and I'd love your thoughts is, Charlie, how do you remember all of this? How seriously do both of you take scholarship and learning and reading? I imagine Victoria very much so. To stay sharp and be able to engage on the infinite topics that can come your way.

[Stuart]

That's one of my greatest regrets that I haven't studied more. I like the preacher who said, when I preach, I'm first going to study as hard as I can, I'm going to pray as hard as I can, and then I'm going to preach as hard as I can. So we got to study hard, we got to pray hard, and then we got to preach hard.

[Charlie Kirk]

What does that look like? In practice for you guys, how. How many books a year? Podcasts. I mean, do you take intentional time to pursue scholarship?

[Cliff]

Absolutely. You gotta read as broad as you possibly can. My favorite mentors are my dead mentors, so they can't hold me accountable on anything. But one was in New York City, and he read 150 books a year, and he's written some national best sellers. And he comes at it from every single angle, culturally speaking, in order to present them the gospel, to make it relevant. Because I don't think it's enough anymore to just present the main doctrines. You know, in the 1700s, when you had the Whitfields, when you had the Newtons and all these, or Edwards, they could just come in and talk about, hey, look at you, and the handsome and angry God.

[Charlie Kirk]

Exactly. And you also have Whitfield down there.

[Cliff]

Right. So you could just present the gospel, and it's the fire and brimstone and people. There was revivals by the thousands who were just saying, oh, gosh, I'm going to hell. I better check this out. So it's out of fear that they considered God. Well, you can't do that anymore for the average person. So we have to read, we have to memorize. I try. And, you know, he had us memorizing scripture since we were 2, and he's doing it with all my daughters right now. You know, they get a couple gummy bears every single time they're able to memorize a single verse. And so that memorization is huge, I think, when it comes to the intellect and really being able to hone that skill is important.

[Charlie Kirk]

The question in front of a lot of other people, though, is also. And finally, I know this is a simple. But it is a very important one. How do you both find the confidence and the courage to go cold into a campus you don't know anybody and break that ice? Are you both naturally introverted or extroverted?

[Stuart]

Well, the first bar that I preached in, in inner city Boston, when I was in seminary, I picked out the bar and I parked my car and I walked towards the bar door, and I walked right past the bar door, and I walked around the block for about 15 minutes, trying to get up the courage to go in there and tell those men on vacation about Christ. Finally I said, cliff, you're defeated. So I went back to my car, was opening the car door to go back to the seminary, and the Holy Spirit brought to my mind the words of Hebrews 11:32, 38. And what more shall I say? I do not have Time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice and gained what was promised, who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword, whose weakness was turned into strength. So I began to realize, cliff, you are the biggest wimp around these guys. These great men and women of faith laid their lives down for God, for Christ, and you can't even walk into a bar in inner city Boston and tell men on vacation who are doing the wrong thing about Christ. Convicted of my lack of faith, I turned around, walked into that bar and stood up and said, excuse me, guys. John writes in 1 John 4:10, this is love. Not that we loved God, but that God loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. And the bartender came running down the bar, cursing his head off at me. I said, excuse me, sir. All I want to do is talk with these guys about what means most in life, knowing God. He said, buddy, you want to know what God is? God is the cash register, and all I care about these guys is their money. And then he came around the bar, grabbed my arm, and escorted me out. So fear is the opposite of faith. And when I grow in faith and trusting God, understand what is true and right, then I will put a stake in the ground, and I don't care what happens. We're going to uncompromisingly stand for the truth of Jesus Christ.

[Charlie Kirk]

Beautifully said. We have more time tonight. I'm excited for that. Thank you guys so much. Good luck on campus and God bless you both.

[Cliff]

Thank you, Charlie. God bless you.

[Stuart]

Keep going, brother.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us. As always, freedomcharliekirk.com thanks so much for listening and God bless.

[Unknown]

For more on many of these stories.

[Cliff]

And news you can trust, go to charliekirk. Com.