← The Charlie Kirk Show
The Charlie Kirk Show
A Message to the American Church: Be Strong and Do Not Fear with Pastor Rob McCoy
00:54:59
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- [00:00]
A
Thank you for listening to this Podcast 1 production now available on Apple Podcasts, Podcast 1, Spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts.
- [00:08]
B
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
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A
I want you to know we are
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B
lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
- [00:19]
A
I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa.
- [00:29]
B
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed destroyed countries, destroyed lives. And we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Hey everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show. I am joined again by my pastor and friend, Rob McCoy.
- [00:47]
A
Good to be with you, Charlie.
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B
It's a lot happening in the country right now, Rob.
- [00:50]
A
There sure is. And I'm glad we have this opportunity to talk about it because my heart was heavy when I saw you getting of beat up in the Christian circles over standing for truth of all things bizarre to me.
- [01:03]
B
Yeah. To kind of catch our audience up on what's been happening. I'm not going to say any names, but it's not hard to find if you look it up online. But a specific pastor of a very big church in Alabama decided to like my social media posts. This person's a friend. I've gotten to know him. He was going to have me out and speak at his church and we were going to. He was going to pay me to come and speak at his church. And for whatever reason, he has liked my social media content. I thank him for that for some time. He approached me in an event, was very positive about it and he liked some social media posts of mine that were not controversial in the slightest, that were all facts and all data. In fact, it was calling out the double standards of the left. What about Ralph Northam's past transgressions? So a non member of his church started to make a big deal out of this. And then he goes on the stage and apologizes for saying it, saying that's not really what he believes. Which now has resulted in the total slander of my name associated with it
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A
and no benefit on their behalf because he ended up losing any connection with the city. And it's, you know, it's the cancel
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B
culture city contracts, affiliation with local governments.
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A
You can't appease the left.
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B
No. And I've had a series of. Now I have to play defense over the whole thing. And what was so bizarre is I didn't ask this individual to like those posts. And it very easily could have been confronted and explained that Charlie is a Christian. We do recognize that. And so I'm going to go further with that.
- [02:34]
A
You're not just a Christian, Charlie. This is a season in the body of Christ where similar to Acts chapter four and five, completely surrounded by persecution in some respects that. I mean, in Acts chapter 4 and 5, you see 11 different government entities coming after the disciples, Peter and John. And they're telling them that they're not allowed to preach in the name of Jesus. And you can find in Acts where actually verse 29, he says we ought to obey God rather than man. And they're contending. And what's fascinating about it is they tell them to be quiet and they know that Herod and Pontius Pilate are after them. And they don't ask God to silence them. They ask God to give them more boldness to stand upon truth. You're not just a Christian, Charlie. You're standing boldly upon truth at great expense to yourself. And this is a time where God is testing the church. It's a refiner's fire. We won't be able to continue as a as when truth is being challenged and we are being asked to compromise in appeasement, where the world is in desperate need of truth. When there's deceit out there, there's censorship, there's the cancel culture. And you're gonna be attacked when you stand upon truth. And you do that, and I commend you.
- [03:57]
B
And the attacking doesn't bother me, actually.
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A
I know it doesn't.
- [04:00]
B
And that's what the interesting part of this story is. I get called these names every single day, regardless of a cultural crisis or not. And what bothered me, though, was that someone who's in charge of a 66,000 member church decided not to stand for truth. That's what bothered me about this story. Me being attacked and slandered. Get in line. I mean, that's a daily occurrence.
- [04:21]
A
This is a real test on the body of Christ in that we're going to be revealed for what it is we truly consider the most important thing. If it's Instagram followers as opposed to truth, then that's going to be revealed.
- [04:37]
B
Let's talk about that. I made a series of videos in the last couple weeks that some said were controversial. I don't consider it to be controversial in the slightest. The first video was really going after people that were posting the black squares on social media who were Completely reinforcing and pushing power, if you will, to a narrative that is about destroying the Western prescribed nuclear family. Blacklivesmatter.com it says that, right. Our job is to disrupt the Western prescribed nuclear family, to abolish prisons, abolish police, and also hyper focus on skin color, not content, of character, not spirituality. And so I started to, I spoke out initially about that. I made another video talking about data and science and statistics, about how it is a tragedy when an unarmed black man is killed by a police officer. However, it is not a widespread tragedy. And so both those things can be independently true and also harmoniously true. And that somehow really irritated people because it seemed as if during a moment that we were having in the country, you weren't allowed to say that, which really bothers me.
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A
Yeah, it doesn't fit the narrative.
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B
It's like you have to sit down and shut up. In fact, I was on a email chain with an individual of conservatives who literally said, charlie, it's time for you to sit down and shut up. See what's happening. Unbelievable to me to hear. And I'm not going to say any names. I'm not in the business of doing that. But then I made a video because it really started to bother me, Rob. And let's talk about it. When I started to see church leaders, pastors, posting the black squares, posting on their Twitter and their Facebook, on their Instagram, themselves and their family at Black Lives Matter rallies. And I spoke out very forcefully. I said, it's very interesting for some of you celebrity pastors out there. I went back to Sanctity Life Sunday. I went back to their post. Nothing about the horror of abortion, nothing about the epidemic of fatherlessness in the black community. Instead, it was, I want to get into the stream of the narrative right now to either make myself safe, mark myself safe from group humiliation, or maybe it makes them feel good.
- [06:50]
A
Yeah, I love the way you did that on that posting. Because if we truly stand behind the simplicity of a black tile, and that's the effort we're going to make, and you look at 2016, 2020, which is the only time you see in the
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B
media, Black Lives Matter, massive spikes in,
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A
massive, massive spikes in traffic on media. But the reality is they're nowhere to be found. And these churches that put up that black tile, it doesn't do squat because you're supporting an organization that they know very little about because they haven't studied to show themselves approved. They don't know. They think that truth is held only within the confines of Scripture, but yet in Philippians, it says whatsoever things are true. Which means you have to find truth in politics, you have to find the truth in biology, you have to find the truth in physics. You got to study to show yourself approved unto God. And that means that you have to rightly divide that. So if you're going to stand upon Black Lives Matter, love hopes all things. I know that they're sympathetic and empathetic to what happened to George Floyd and everyone else who's been every human being. Every human being. I got that. So love hopes all things. But to be ignorant of what Black Lives Matter stands for and to ask your congregations to support that, that is unconscionable. You have not studied, you have not done your homework, and then to dump on you in relation to that. The statistic 13% of America is black Americans. And you break that down male, female, the six and a half percent female, break it down to childbearing, that's 4% of the population of America is responsible for 40% of the abort abortions. It's a holocaust on the black community through abortion. Nothing's being said from the pulpits in relation to that because it's not a popular position. They don't say anything.
- [08:42]
B
And it's about 400,000 abortions a year in the black community. If you see a black woman on a subway in New York City, statistics show she's more likely to end up going to Planned Parenthood than the delivery room. If you see a pregnant black woman on the bus or the subway or walking the streets of Fifth Avenue. And so my criticism towards these pastors was mostly focused on, wait a second. If Black Lives Matter to you, if that is now the thing that matters the most to your activists, your activist mentality, your activism, I should say your silence on abortion is deafening. Yeah. And also I also look at the posting of the black tile as something even deeper than attributing to a, let's just say a malevolent group, which it is. I'm talking about the organization. I'm talking about the leadership. I'm talking about the goals and the aims. I look at it as surrendering to something that is not true. Right.
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A
The culture's driving them, not them driving culture.
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B
What's not true is that this is a widespread, out of control structural problem that is beyond reproach, that warrants hundreds of thousands of individuals in the streets. That is not true. And that's what bothers me the most, is when you put that black tile up, of course Black Lives Matter all lives matter. And I say that time and time again and people say, oh, you can't say I don't. Well, yeah, I say it.
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A
It's racist to say.
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B
However, when I say something is not true, that's not. What I'm saying is not true. What I'm saying is not true is when I see people that say a black person can't walk down the street without the credible threat of a police officer gunning them down.
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A
Just not true.
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B
It's just statistically untrue. In fact, it's more true that a police officer will be killed by a black person than an unarmed police police. An unarmed black man will be killed by a police officer. In fact, it's more true that a white person, statistically, even factoring in demographics and age and proportion of population, a white individual is more likely to be killed by a police officer than a black person. In fact, the study's shown, according to the University of Maryland, College park at Michigan State University and independent studies by black researchers at Harvard University show that police officers show a multiple amount of restraint towards black individuals that commit crimes than white individuals that commit crimes. In fact, there is data to show that police officers go out of their way to try to not engage in the violence. And so one isolated incident in Minnesota that is evil and was a sin, and he's going to be held accountable.
- [11:13]
A
And the other officers as well, who are cowards, Interesting. In our city, as you know, I held the position of mayor for the city of Thousand Oaks, and I was mayor following the shooting that happened in the Borderline Dance hall. And we lost 12 of our citizens, young people, and two of them were from our congregation. And the officer that went in to stop the shooter didn't look at skin color. He just went in to stop evil. As Romans 13 says, he's a minister of justice to execute wrath on those who do evil. So Officer Helis goes in and he's waylaid the guy, ambushes him and shoots him. He didn't die from that. It was the CHP officer that came down and a bullet from his weapon killed Officer Helis. But Officer Helis and that CHP officer put that gunman on notice where he went into the office and capped himself and stopped the killing. And there were hundreds of kids that could have been killed. There were 12 that were. Of the 12 that were killed, one of them in particular, his brother Blake Dingman was the. Was the victim. His brother's Aiden. Aiden went on Instagram and he was upset and he said, was there white Privilege for my brother when he was killed. And the fascinating thing about Thousand Oaks is it was to strong after the shootings and the fires to strong. And we named a freeway after Officer Helis. And we were all about our officers and supporting them. And everyone in America was in complete agreement. I haven't met one person who was the opposite. Everyone that I've met and everyone that they've met, full agreement. What happened to George Floyd was evil. End of story. But yet overnight we have targeted our police. Over 700 been injured. Others have been murdered.
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B
And two black police officers. Patrick Underwood, David Dorn.
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A
David Dorn, you know, he was when
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B
he chief of police and he was 77 years old.
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A
77 years old.
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He was retired. But still, once a police officer, always a police officer is upset that a local pawn shop is being looted.
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A
Looted.
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B
And he goes to defend his community and tries to de escalate the situation. And yet he gets killed on a Facebook live for a television.
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A
And the churches in America, instead of stepping into these communities that are burning, step behind the narrative of the organization that's responsible for the destruction of these cities, the looting of these cities. Supporting a party that is every single one of these cities, Democrat governor, Democrat mayor, Democrat, Democrat all the way down the line. They're the ones burning. They're the ones decimated. And Black Lives Matter act blue. It all goes to the Democratic Party. And our pastors don't realize this. And yet you're standing upon truth. Candace is standing upon truth. David Harris Jr. Standing upon truth. All these folks and they're ridiculed. And the church decides to join the narrative because it's convenient and it gets more Instagram followers. That's unconscionable.
- [14:12]
B
What do you have to say specifically to these pastors? Speak to them.
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A
Yeah, I want to speak to them because I've held office and I know the cultural mountain of influence in regards to politics. I know how things operate legislatively because I've participated in it. And I want to say to them as they're in their pulpits, their ignorance of what is necessary to move this nation in a direction that would honor God. A system of laws that God has established because 430 years after Abraham was saved by grace in Genesis, God gives the law and he gives the law, not so that we can't keep it and we're saved by grace. It's deeper than that. He gave us so that we could live together and understand how to operate in community with moral knowledge. But we've abandoned that understanding. We don't help in educating our congregations and discipling them on what government looks like, infused by the wisdom that God gives through the Scriptures. So when you stand upon socialism and you think that that's kind of hip and in vogue with your young people, you're in violation of two of the Ten Commandments, your scriptural knowledge. We've abdicated contending for truth beyond the pulpits and the word of God. And we've left ourselves ignorant of truth within politics. And we've also abdicated how the media informs us we don't care about truth in those other areas. And that's detrimental to our communities.
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B
And I think it's worse than that. Rob, you have pastors actively participating.
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A
Actively participating, yeah.
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B
It's not just that they're. Silence is a separate issue. It's worse. They're complicit. They're pushing power. They are raising money. I have seen pastors from Southern California, and I will not say churches.
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A
It will. From the group of churches that I'm affiliated with, leave it at that.
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B
Have massive social media followings that are posting homemade signs that they made no accident with their children. Rob. At a Black Lives Matter protest that says all lives don't matter until Black Lives Matter. The Other1 has blacklivesmatter.com the website to push traffic to it. On that homemade website.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Children, six years old, Christian. How did it get to this?
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A
In addition, we're talking about white privilege. I mean, this is contrary to Deuteronomy where it says. And we do this idea with social justice. Even from the pulpits. There's nothing before the word justice. It's just justice. And even in Deuteronomy, the Lord says, you're not going to be favored. You won't favor the poor or the rich. Justice operates regardless. You can't show faith.
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B
It's supposed to be blind.
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A
It's supposed to be blind. And yet we as ministers would rather yield to popularity than what the word says. And the truth of that. And we're bending ourselves into a pretzel to try to accommodate the left. And you know what? They can't be appeased. And all you're going to end up doing is compromising the truth for a lie. And you'll exchange the truth for a lie. And. And we'll be more strictly judged as ministers. And Charlie, when I look at folks like you and Candace and David and others that I went down the list
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B
of Stephen Davis, Steven Davis, I mean, Maga Hulk.
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A
Maga Hulk. When I look at folks that are doing this standing for truth and fog city. Midge. When I see folks like that standing in the midst of conflict, unwavering and speaking truth, that is what the ministry should be doing. It has to cost us something. And yet we are compromising for the sake of popularity, and that's dangerous.
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B
How did it get to that, though?
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A
When you look at the formation of the early church after Pentecost and the Spirit falls, persecution's never been a problem for the church. It's always been a healthy thing for the church. The fear of man is a snare. We get to a place where we're content with the popularity because it really does become a business. And now we're having to examine ourselves in the light of the persecution that's coming against the truth. And the church is. You're being weighed in the balance, and you're being found wanting. And really, I love this part. Refiner's fire. My heart's one desire is to be holy Set apart for you, Lord. The refiner's fire. You put all this ore in, you heat it up to an unbelievably hot temperature. It liquefies, and then the slag, the impurities by the intense temperature float to the surface, and the refiner skims off the slag and knows the metal is pure when he can see his reflection in the metal. There's a lot of slag in the church, and God's turning up the temperature, and that stuff's floating to the surface and revealing really what it is that's most important to us. And it's not the truth, sadly.
- [19:10]
B
You know what's really interesting? What I'm finding is that conservatives, outspoken conservatives, candace David Harris Jr. Steven Davis, who's an Aga hulk, we have on the podcast and many others, Benny Johnson.
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A
Benny, yeah.
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B
What's interesting, though, this is a theory I've been working out. They're Christians. They're also conservatives, but they're persecuted all the time.
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A
By the church.
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B
By the church, too, but they're. By the secular word, everyone. And so I get pastors that are reaching out to me privately, asking me for advice, how they can speak out. And I say, it's in your question. Speak out.
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A
Amen.
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B
And I hand off some of these to you because you're able to articulate it differently. But I'm not even able to process a world where I would stay silent. I can't even imagine being in a community where I have to say, well, we have to just kind of. You're not running a hardware store, and there's nothing wrong with running a hardware store. But you're in the business of truth definitionally by running a church. So you would think that persecution or offending or losing membership, which won't happen by the way, that is a false fear planted by Satan. The opposite will happen.
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A
And even if it was, that's what
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B
I'm saying, who cares? So what?
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A
They committed themselves to the apostles teaching and the Lord added their numbers daily, those who are being saved. You look in the book of Acts 4 and 5, Ananias and Sapphira are struck dead for bringing deception into the church and wanting to appear as something they weren't. It wasn't wrong that they gave money. It wasn't even wrong that they held a portion him back. I mean they were actually generous. What was wrong is they lied. And it wasn't to man, they lied to God. If we think that we're pulling something off because we're playing this game of walking on both sides, God's not impressed. And nobody messes with his bride. And when his bride is under fire, like it was in Acts 4 and 5, he's striking these people dead to protect the church. And what do they ask for when they're under persecution? What does Peter and John ask for? What do the disciples ask for when Herod and all these government entities are coming after him? What, what did they ask for? They didn't ask for them to vanquish those who were coming after them. They said, lord, look upon their threats. But they said for us, Lord, would you give us a boldness to proclaim your word. They wanted to stand even more bold. What a wonderful time to be alive. And then the country is so overwhelmed with censorship and a compromising of the truth, they're looking for a beacon of truth that they can say that person standing. And I love the idea in the book of Acts that Luke wrote he's a doctor, he didn't use medical terms when he said that the sick were brought to them and then Peter's shadow, they would lay them down and Peter's shadow would cross him and the ones that were tormented would be made well. The word sick is not a medical term that Luke would use for an illness. It means weak. It means not knowing right and wrong, not knowing law and unlawful behavior. It means they didn't have any moral fiber, they were cast in the wind of doubt. And they see a guy like Peter walk by and he's just empowered by the Lord, fearless. And his shadow covers them. And it says the tormented. The word tormented translated in The Greek means those that incite to a mob. Everyone's looking, going, does anyone have answers to this? And they're looking to the church. And the church is buying into this distortion of truth. And people are saying, oh, you stand upon that, your church is going to shrink. Just the opposite. Like you pointed out, people want you to stand upon that. They want to know what the word has to say about the economy, about immigration, about race relations. They want to know, and we got to be able to teach them. And, Charlie, you do that, and for the pulpits in America to decry what you do, you're more effective than 95% of the pastors in this country.
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B
It's not a competition, so thank you.
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A
I know it isn't, but it's a necessary time for us to stand upon truth. I say that as a challenge to the pastors, not as a competition to wake up. This is what we get to do. Don't be afraid.
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B
Well, we praise God. Our podcast has been ranked, you know, very high, and we're the top ranked podcast that speaks openly about faith, more so than any of these other celebrity pastor podcasts. And, you know, if it stays there, great. If it doesn't, you know, God will use it for good. But it's interesting because we got an email this morning from a young man who says, I grew up in a pretty religious home. I walked away from. I don't know where to start, but I've been inspired by how you have said that faith gives you comfort and direction. Where do I go?
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A
Amen.
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B
And so you call this the Galatians 3.
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A
Yeah. I almost feel like the Lord led both you and I to that passage, because when we met, the church didn't understand you. And I had been introduced to you that, oh, that's Charlie Kirk. He's a conservative, but he doesn't know the Lord because he's got homosexuals on Turning Point usa. He's got folks that are atheists and agnostics on Turning Point, and they start going down the list of. Of what's acceptable. And obviously, he can't be born again. And then I meet you, and not only did I hear just, you know, a recording of you professing your faith, meeting you in person, watching you contend for truth. And I was moved by your commitment to the Lord and your love for the Lord and your commitment to His Word and to stand by it, but then walking into the pulpits that are myopic and truncated in their gospel, they can't access the world. You've had access to. And they think that we're not allowed to soil ourselves in a world where people don't profess our faith. But because of your knowledge of our founders and the brilliance of the laws of nature, Nature's God. And delving into these philosophical thinkers and understanding the dynamics of politics, as Aristotle said, it's the highest form of community. That's. You're studying to show yourself approved. They're ignorant. And then when the Lord brought us to Acts. Excuse me, Galatians 3, I called you because that was what the Lord showed me, that God had gifted you with.
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B
Read it if you.
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A
I will. So Paul is telling the church in Galatia. He just says to them, but before faith came. This is Galatians 3, 2325. You can read the entire chapter, but this is a part that hit me. Paul says, but before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore, the law was our tutor. It's actually this idea of guardian. It's a really beautiful term. The law was our guardian to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we're no longer under that guardian. God gave us the law, and our founders understood this so that we could live together and realize, thou shall not murder. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not. And when you had these 3 to 5 million Jews that come out of slavery, placed in the wilderness, and God gives them the moral law, they lived together for 40 years without a police force or standing army because they understood government. They understood we're accountable to God and accountable to each other. And they searched the scriptures, appoint godly men who are not covetous over thousands, hundreds, 50s, tens. That's where they got federal, state, county, local government. The Lord is our king, our lawgiver, and our judge. That's where you get executive, legislative and judicial out of Isaiah. And our founders understood this. But now in the pulpits for the last 50 years, we've abdicated our responsibility in the public square, and we have no idea how government operates. And we say, oh, I just preached the gospel. When did the gospel not speak to every realm, culture? And, well, you know, politics is dirty. I hear that from pastors. I go, so is the church. What's your point? And then they say, you know, I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. I go, unless Jesus is running for office, you'll always be voting for the lesser two evils. It is an excuse to abdicate Your responsibility to study. Study means work hard to show yourself. Approved. That you're not ashamed. If I asked you a question on any policy in this country, you would be able to give a biblical defense of why you stand the way you stand. Every single one of these issues that's not going to be found in the pulpits of America. I was challenged by my ignorance. The Bible says the pastoral epistle and Timothy pray for kings and those in authority that we would live quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and reverence. Ask a pastor this. And congregants, ask your pastors this. That's a pastoral epistle. It's a commandment. And based on that name, by name, the five city council members and the five school board members in your community that you pastor, are praying for by name and the issues that they're dealing with that would allow your citizens to live quiet and peaceful lives in all godliness and reverence. You don't. You not only don't know their names, you have no idea the issues they're dealing with because you've abdicated that responsibility in a nation that they govern by our consent because we're the sovereign. And then they have the audacity to throw back at me. Romans 13. Oh, God appoints all positions of authority, bro. You know that God gave us Gavin Newsom, and you're not supposed to fight against. You have to obey. We're to be subject to our governing authorities. Yeah, let's not forget, Pastor, that our founders understood that as well. And that's why they made you and I the authority. We the people and those that govern, govern by our consent. And we have the ability in this government to push back. And they're bound by the Constitution. Can you name how many articles, pastor in those? No, they don't. There's seven articles. Do you know why it's broken down the way. No, I don't. Do you know how we formulated that scripturally? No, I don't. Well, whatsoever things are true. Study to show yourself. Approved, Charlie, you can do that, but they cannot. But they would decry you. That's my burden. And that's what I'm calling pastors to. Your congregants need to be led. And this is the last one because I'm bloviating. My bad. But hey, I'm passionate about this.
- [29:41]
B
Don't apologize for talking truth.
- [29:43]
A
Amen. This is the last one that really gets me. They govern by our consent. And our founders declared that we are the sovereign, we the people, and every king and I'VE told you this. Every king needs a counselor. Every president needs a cabinet. And the founders understood the value of the pulpit in America and how critical it was to the king, we the people. They knew that only a republic can be governed by moral people and truth had to be contended for. They knew that the weakness of man. So they divided power between executive, legislative and judicial, separating it, knowing the power wants to concentrate and keeping in the hands of the people. And to do that, they gave them the most amazing counselors. And they did that by the very first amendment in the Bill of Rights. The freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the freedom to peaceably assemble. Peaceably assemble for right of redress of grievances against the government. They knew that a press that was wisely educated and moral would pursue truth. But now they're pursuing censorship and their narrative and it's no longer about truth. They knew the pulpits, being free, would be able to declare truth and teach people how to be truthful within the journalistic world, how to be truthful within the realms of government, how to be true in every vestige of culture. And they gave speech and speech. In the beginning was the Word. The word was with God. You speak the truth, it changes the world. The truth is a two edged sword, able to divide the thoughts and the intents of the heart. It's living, it's breathing. Truth is profound. But we've exchanged the truth for a lie. We tolerate deception, and not only that, we yield to it when we should be standing upon truth because that's the only thing that will set people free. And when they hear that, then we stand with them for a right to peaceably assemble for redress of grievances against the government that governs by our consent. And they're not teaching their people how to participate. When we make the Lord's Prayer, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I ask the pastors, what does a government like that look like? Freedom of man. Because freedom, liberty is God's idea, not man's. Is freedom equal distribution where we all have to be the same and there's no creativity, where we're not allowed to accumulate wealth, even though all the laws are the protection of wealth and that capitalism is spoken of in the scriptures. Of course they wouldn't know that because they didn't study. Is government the answer to generosity and benevolence? No. But you know that and you can give a scriptural defense for it, do they? And that's why I'M so inspired by you. I'm 55 years old. Charlie, you're 27. 26. You're 26?
- [32:50]
B
Yeah. I thought you were 27 eventually.
- [32:52]
A
So I'm more than twice your age, which is even more frustrating to me. And you cast a shadow so big by towering and you're not going to accept this because you hate compliments, but I'm declaring to the pastors out there, Candace Owens, cast a shadow. David Harris Jr. All the folks we've listed, they cast a shadow of truth that those who are tormented look up and say, wow, there is hope in this world. Truth is profound. I can have a life that isn't going to be ruined in the next ice age or whatever it is. Global warming, where they pedal in disinformation that scares our young people so they can paralyze them by fear and ignorance. And yet you're out there educating them. I want the pulpits in America to be inspired by the courage all of you have shown in this generation. And you've inspired me.
- [33:54]
B
Thank you. Well, we all just have to do our part. We're doing a small part. And you've poured into me and you're the, I don't want to say the only pastor, but the first pastor I met that was like this nurse, Jack Hibbs and the Barnett's here in Phoenix are phenomenal. And many others that just stand on
- [34:12]
A
truth, I can name them. Many have not found the need of bail.
- [34:16]
B
The fact we can name them though, Rob, that's true.
- [34:19]
A
The problem, the list isn't so long I wouldn't know who's on it.
- [34:24]
B
It's interesting. I have a working theory that when I really dive into it with these pastors, there's a rubicon that needs to be crossed. And deep down most of these pastors know what I'm saying is true. They agree with what I'm saying. In fact, evidenced by the story I began with. They like what I'm saying literally by pushing a button of approv approval on digital media. However, there is a line where they are perfectly comfortable with telling a bunch of people you're going to hell if you don't make a specific confession and acceptance. That's cool. By the way, that's probably the thing that should offend most people. Eternal damnation. Yeah.
- [35:07]
A
You think?
- [35:08]
B
I think actually using Aristotelian logic, that would be the ultimate offensive comment that you will never have a nice moment again if you don't do.
- [35:19]
A
There's no party in hell.
- [35:21]
B
However, they're cool with that.
- [35:23]
A
Some sure struggle over that one.
- [35:27]
B
Let's deal with the people that are. Because there are. There are people that do that. But the moment they have to cross the Rubicon, use a Julius Caesar analogy. The moment that they have to, I don't know, abortion, Offend some of my congregants. Talking about Black lives Matter. I can't do that, Rob. There are pastors taking knees, not for Christ, but to apologize for something they never did.
- [36:06]
A
Charlie, this is the way God made me. I can't change my skin color. I have never owned slaves. I'm not racist. I don't even have to defend it. It's just. It's that simple. And to apologize for something that I've never done, to pay reparations for something I've never done, nor my ancestors, and go down the lineage. But regardless, the Bible says that he takes our sin and he casts it as far as the east is from the west, to be remembered no more. We've been cleansed of all unrighteousness forgiven. And it's the enemy. It says, who is he that condemned? It's a rhetorical question, saying it's Satan who brings the guilt and the condemnation so that you can be shamed. And what's fascinating is we want people to feel guilty for something they've never done. And those that have committed a crime, we don't want to hold them accountable, and we let them go. You can burn a building, you can torch a business, you can deface public property. They apprehend you and you're immediately released. But yet those of you who have the businesses that have been lost, those of you who live these type of lives, you're guilty of by the simple fact of your skin color. And they pit us against one another to come, steal, kill, and destroy and devour. And pastors stand upon that as though they're defending the destruction of a culture built on law and order. And the ones that are going to be most affected when we remove the sheepdog, the police are these inner cities, and they still don't see it. And they don't stand in defense of law enforcement, which is beyond my understanding. For the culture to say sweepingly that there's systemic racism in the police force is patently wrong. It's just not true.
- [38:13]
B
And it's not supported by data.
- [38:15]
A
No, not supported by data.
- [38:17]
B
It's not anecdotally true.
- [38:18]
A
None of it.
- [38:19]
B
And it's none of it.
- [38:20]
A
But it's popular. And so they stand upon it, which puts a target on all these police officers who are ministers of justice to execute wrath on those who would do evil. They're having to defend constitutional rights from legislators who are violating them to protect we the people. And the exact same time they're being targeted by nefarious forces on the left and the right that seek to destroy this constitutional republic. Whether it's fascism or communism, which are part of the horseshoe. They're both oligarchies. It doesn't matter. They're both terrible and they're targeted and we should be supporting them as fellow ministers, but we don't.
- [38:56]
B
I look at police officers as. And here's the very simple. This uses Aristotelian logic. If you're thinking you're using that form of logic because he discovered it, he didn't give it. The laws of logic will exist before and after man. And we know that in John 1, whatsoever is true. Whatsoever is true. But logos, the idea to think is actually the Greek term we use to also describe truth. Christ and Christ literally in John 1. There's a reason why that word has the same Greek meaning in pathos ethos, logos, Christ. Because we took it as absolute truth in the hierarchy. We have to understand that. You cannot fully understand John unless you understand Socrates, Plato, Aristotle. And I could make the argument that Christ studied the classics because there's that kind of decade that we don't know what Jesus did. And as a theologian once told me he's probably up to some good studying during that decade. Now Jesus knows everything. Right?
- [39:56]
A
Yeah.
- [39:56]
B
And so the studying could have been reminding or remembering or could have been ceremonies. We don't know.
- [40:00]
A
Right.
- [40:01]
B
However, there's something to be said though, that communicating to those times there were ceilings that the classics were hitting because they were men. Jesus is God. So understanding that to be true, the laws of logic are critical. Man is flawed. We know that. That's. That's immun. Because man is flawed. You need laws. Yep, we know that.
- [40:24]
A
Yep.
- [40:25]
B
And we've been.
- [40:26]
A
The laws are the wise restraints that make men free.
- [40:28]
B
Amen. And that used to be what the Harvard Law School used to talk about.
- [40:32]
A
Now still on the stairwell. But that's.
- [40:34]
B
They're plaque.
- [40:35]
A
They're going to burn it.
- [40:35]
B
Yeah, they'll burn that then. Man flawed. Need laws. Laws require the enforcement of laws.
- [40:41]
A
Right?
- [40:42]
B
Right.
- [40:43]
A
A minister of justice to execute wrath on those who do evil.
- [40:45]
B
Logical. Right. So we're an enforcement of laws. Must be a human being. Human beings. Go back to number one. Are flawed. That's it.
- [40:55]
A
And they must be held accountable. Consent to the governed.
- [40:58]
B
Amen.
- [40:58]
A
And how do we hold them accountable? By the counselors that defend and stand upon truth because they're educated in all aspects whatsoever is true. And they make disciples, not converts.
- [41:10]
B
What's the difference?
- [41:11]
A
A convert is you raise your hand to attest to Jesus Christ that he was crucified, buried, and resurrected, and you're saved by grace, through faith. If you believe in your heart and confess with your tongue, Jesus is Lord, you will be saved to the glory of the Father. And you acknowledge that and you raise your hand, you've been converted. But that's like a baby being born and leaving it on the operating table. Discipleship. You got to raise that baby first. It's the milk of the Word, and it's all truth that you start to build upon and the teaching. And you look at Psalm 119, which is all education. It's all about the law, and it's all on how to educate your children. Psalms and proverbs, wisdom and praise, taking them through all these biblical principles on how we should govern ourselves. We don't teach the entirety of God's Word. We may teach the 66 books of the Bible, but everything boils down to a conversion aspect. Where is Christ in this capacity? We never relay the application of the text to anything regarding government.
- [42:13]
B
That's a good point.
- [42:14]
A
And we need to.
- [42:15]
B
And what I find, though, and the reason why churches are lacking the fire that these protesters are lacking and the Christians, is because they've been told. And many of these churches, their business model is salvation. Altar calls, which I have supported, I do. But then it stops there, because then what you have is those Christians that raise those hands. And I've seen this happen, and it's the most amazing day. And they accept Jesus Christ, their Lord and Savior, and they might go as far to get baptized, but then a week passes by, a month passes by, and they turn on the news and they see the streets of Seattle being taken over by anarchists. And they ask the correct question. How does my faith inform my new faith, my salvation? How does it inform what I do here today? Go back to the megachurch. The celebrity pastors say, hey, Pastor, I'm so fired up for Christ. Thank you. As you know, I did the altar call, I did the baptism thing. I'm raising my hand in church during music. I love it. I'm born new. I'm listening nothing but Christian music. But, you know, the anarchist thing in Seattle, how am I supposed to make sense of that? We don't really take stands on that kind of stuff.
- [43:24]
A
Well, they're going to take a stand, but it's going to be the one
- [43:27]
B
of least resistance and the one of least resistance. But this Christian's like, but I thought you just told me all about this, like firm truth. And we got to make decisions, we got to be really clear about things, right? And what ends up happening is you have confused and corrupted Christians from that point forward. And what comes to me is the Christians come up to me and they say, charlie, you're one of the few podcasters or thinkers or whatever you want to describe it, that connects the gospel to all of a sudden connects to the world. Because that's where the Christians outside of that hour a week service or hour and a half week, they got to contest in this world. And they're being peppered with what do I do, what do I eat, how do I do all this? And the church is not equipping them for any of that.
- [44:07]
A
And why are we losing our young people? It's real simple. The Bible says, remember thy creator in the days of thy youth, because that's when you're most passionate. You see that with all the turning point USA kids, I mean, they're fearless and they stand on these campuses surrounded by those who are contrary, by the mob.
- [44:23]
B
How many of these Christians have been surrounded by a physical mob, but they're
- [44:26]
A
passionate about these truths and they stand upon because they know that these applied in government. Give them a hope. And then you see these activists that are standing upon deception, but they're still passionate about it because someone has least laid out a roadmap. Oh, if we burn all the buildings, then we'll be able to have an.
- [44:43]
B
It's the mobilization of grievances. And that is so dangerous.
- [44:47]
A
But the church doesn't know how to equip our young people when they're passionate about wanting a world they can live in with answers to address the issues of their contemporaries that are coming at them. And who's doing that? You Turning Point, you know, and I can name on one hand a number of other organizations doing that, but that's it. Certainly not the churches. We can't give a ready answer. We're not prepared. We're not equipped for that. Oh, bro, I preach the gospel. What does that mean? I preach the gospel every day, too. Are you inferring that? Because I know how scripture speaks to different areas of society and how to govern based on that and can give a ready answer that somehow I've compromised the gospel. The compromising comes on their part, not ours.
- [45:34]
B
They're inferring that the gospel is insulated or is absent to politics, to governance or life.
- [45:40]
A
Yeah, they've truncated it and made it myopic.
- [45:42]
B
That's correct. And what ends up happening is you have passive, unfulfilled Christians that leave the church and go towards Eastern religions or spirituality, or they leave altogether or even worse, they become activists misinterpreting the scripture for pseudo marxism, which is what you're
- [46:01]
A
seeing now because you take a little bit of time truth or you take truth and you just salt a little bit of a lie into it. And over time they buy into it. And then we lose all of our young people because we don't. We're not giving them answers. And that's what they're looking for.
- [46:18]
B
They're looking for order in a chaotic world.
- [46:20]
A
Yep.
- [46:21]
B
And that's why I tell pastors this and they reject it. I say Jordan Peterson has brought more people to Christ than any evangelist in the modern era. He's actually the modern day Billy Graham. And who would have thought that a social psychologist from Canada who is not even a Christian by standards that you and I would. But he knows scripture better than most Christians because he studies the Bible archetypically and he defends the Bible against atheists for hours on end. He will contest for the truth of the Bible, but it's a different type of truth. It's not the historical. It's the truth of saying these stories matter. You can't just throw this book out like there's something here. And what he argues is that you need order. And you know, he's not doing well health wise right now. I think hopefully he'll have a bounce back. We need him right now because what he was able to do is bring people out of this forest of chaos and secular leftism.
- [47:16]
A
And he can contend in academia for that.
- [47:18]
B
And he has the credibility and the social psychology credentials and he understands the workings of the mind. And unfortunately a lot of the discourse right now is built on arguments of authority that if you don't have the right credentials, they don't even let you on the stage. And for him, he has all the credentials.
- [47:33]
A
But they're even starting to dismiss that as well.
- [47:35]
B
Of course they are.
- [47:35]
A
Yeah. And that's why we need brave folks to stand, having done all, to stand, girding yourself, putting on the armor of God. And then you have this offensive weapon, the sword of scripture that's an offensive weapon to divide between what is true and what isn't in every realm of creation. Contend, fight. I didn't come to Bring peace, but a sword. That sword is truth. And it turns families. I mean, we're watching this in our nation right now that you're canceled in your own family if you don't do the black tile.
- [48:11]
B
No, it's even worse. Celebrities are encouraging kids to leave their families at age 14, 15 if their parents don't support Black Lives Matter movement and report them. That's right.
- [48:20]
A
If they're not abiding by this scamdemic and everything else that we're being told to accept. And I'm watching churches, this is, I'm in California, Charlie, you know this where we have the most draconian lockdown measures on a virus that is highly contagious. But the lethality, the deadliness of it, mortality rate 99.2 to 99.7% survival rate of those who contract it. So.
- [48:48]
B
And it's hyper focused on nursing homes and people with pregnant 65 and older with comorbidities.
- [48:54]
A
But we have draconian lockdown measures that are destroying our economy. And remember this, the unemployed in America are more than the entire population of California. But the unemployed in California is greater than the total of 28 other states. So we're watching these draconian rules ruin our state. And the church is still considered non essential. But the two sacraments in the Protestant realm, I think there's seven in Catholicism, but the two in the Protestant realm, baptism and communion. And they would hinder their congregations from a sacrament that's defended by the First Amendment and allow the governor under a scamdemic to tell them they're non essential. And they'll play that role because they don't want to offend so that they can preach the gospel. What's the point of the gospel if it doesn't defend truth and stand upon truth? This is a scam study. Point it out to your congregations that this is a lie. And when we opened up the church, all of a sudden they're saying the church is non essential. But you're allowed to have riots, you're allowed to have protests with no masks on. So we opened, you know, and we'd been open and I just told it. We took away all social distancing and we said, look, if you're concerned about social distancing, we're running the FM station in the parking lot. Sit in your car and enjoy it. But you come in here, liberty is going to require that you're going to have the consequences.
- [50:15]
B
And responsibility.
- [50:16]
A
And responsibility.
- [50:17]
B
And your self awareness.
- [50:18]
A
And your self awareness.
- [50:19]
B
Measure your risk, measure your Risk.
- [50:20]
A
And they come in and masks are optional. And when they came in, nobody wanted to wear one. I said, you're allowed to greet one another in accordance with how everybody hugged each other. And this is the other thing I said, for the sake of the governor who keeps moving the goalposts and the statement of these 1500 health workers that said that, you know, these protests are acceptable, but the lockdown measures for stay at home orders are still have to be enforced. I just said, we're having a justice protest today. And everyone laughed. But that's. It's just the wording. If it's a protest, we're allowed to gather. So we're protesting for true justice. And that's it. It's just crazy.
- [51:02]
B
So I got to do that for the upcoming visit for the president. Yeah. Here in Arizona, they try to shut us down. We're doing a protest for freedom, justice.
- [51:10]
A
Yeah.
- [51:11]
B
For God's justice.
- [51:12]
A
Just. Just do a justice protest. Because they're saying, social justice, just justice. We're standing for justice. That's it.
- [51:20]
B
I love that.
- [51:21]
A
Amen. Move the goalpost. We're still there. It's truth. We're standing for justice. But why would the pastors not stand for sacraments and allow their people access? Jesus said, as often as you do this, do this in remembrance of me. You'll know the truth. The truth will set you free. It was the most profound communion service I have ever participated in. On that Palm Sunday, I remember. And the press came out in droves. And we haven't had a single outbreak of COVID in our church. Not one. Not one. And we were going to be responsible for the death of hundreds and thousands of people in our city. Not one. And, oh, this is the best. This is classic. So the pastors in the community, I've had a relationship with them for the 20 years I've been there. I love them all. And they'll come to me privately and they'll say, I really appreciate what you're doing, but I publicly won't stand with you. But I just wanted to encourage you. I get it. You know, I'm not the pioneer, but please keep doing what you're doing. I'm praying for you, but I publicly can't stand with you. All right, fine. You know, you're missing out on a really great opportunity, and a number of your congregates are coming over to our church because they don't have a place to go. Yeah.
- [52:45]
B
So in closing, what can people do? We have a lot of seekers listening to this witness shortly to them,
- [52:56]
A
you know, this idea of liberty. Freedom is having choices, but liberty is standing upon truth. Truth is what makes you free. Now, you don't want to use that freedom to put you back into bondage. So when you're pursuing this idea of how we live together in government with liberty, I would say this to all the seekers. The source of that liberty. The source of that liberty is Jesus. He's come. That you would be set free. You'd know the truth. The truth would set you free. That freedom comes when you stand upon truth, and that truth is found in him. He is the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him. But the entirety of scripture will give you answers on every issue you're struggling with. And stay tuned into organizations like Turning Point usa, where they're taking these biblical truths and they're applying them to every vestige of our culture, even with poplitics. I love that you guys are phenomenal in that regard. So for all Those Seekers, Galatians 3, you're studying these. You're going to come to know the God who's given these laws that will give you a hope for a nation that's unlike anything we've ever seen in the 6000 years of recorded history upon the face of the earth.
- [54:08]
B
And I tell people where to start. I say read John.
- [54:11]
A
Read John, and read John.
- [54:12]
B
Proverbs.
- [54:12]
A
Amen. Proverbs is for wisdom. I've read that pretty much every day since I became a Christian years and years ago.
- [54:18]
B
Those are rules for life.
- [54:19]
A
Amen.
- [54:20]
B
And what's your Instagram?
- [54:22]
A
Oh, what is it? I don't know. Robmikoy.
- [54:27]
B
Okay, let's give him some followers. Rob, thanks for joining.
- [54:30]
A
Oh, thanks, Charlie. You rock, you bless me, and you call me your pastor.
- [54:34]
B
And you are.
- [54:35]
A
I hear you say that, but I'm inspired by you. And you blessed me. I'm honored that you would give me that moniker. But more than that, I'm blessed by you, Charlie.
- [54:43]
B
We need pastors that fight, and I can't. I only. I only can find a couple of them and there'll be more. They're coming.
- [54:50]
A
They're coming.
- [54:50]
B
Charlie, thanks for joining me.
- [54:52]
A
Yeah, God bless you, man.