Andy Biggs for Governor of Arizona!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Charlie Kirk Show – "Andy Biggs for Governor of Arizona!"

Host: Charlie Kirk
Guest: Dr. Thomas West, Professor of Politics at Hillsdale College
Episode Release Date: May 16, 2025

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1. Endorsement Announcement

Timestamp: [00:00] – [02:05]

In the opening segment, Charlie Kirk announces the official endorsement of Andy Biggs for Governor of Arizona, emphasizing the full backing of the Turning Point USA machinery behind Biggs. Charlie asserts the importance of uniting behind Biggs to reclaim the governorship in Arizona, labeling him as the "true conservative endorsed by President Trump."

Charlie Kirk [00:00]: "We are planting the flag. And I make the case as to why Andy Biggs will be a phenomenal governor, a great candidate, and why we need to unite behind Andy Biggs to be Governor of State 48."

Andy Biggs expresses gratitude for the endorsement, highlighting Charlie's pivotal role in the conservative movement.

Andy Biggs [00:45]: "Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks."

2. Arizona's Political Landscape and Biggs' Candidacy

Timestamp: [02:05] – [07:53]

Charlie Kirk delves into the current political scenario in Arizona, pointing out the disconnect between the state's increasing conservative leanings and its Democratic leadership. Despite Arizona voting strongly for President Trump, the state continues to be led by Democrats in key positions.

Charlie Kirk [02:20]: "This state voted for President Trump, more so than any other battleground state. We are increasingly a red state, but we have a Democrat governor..."

Dr. Thomas West elaborates on the deficiencies of the current Democratic administration, citing issues such as border security failures, economic stagnation, lack of deregulation, and declining educational outcomes. He underscores the necessity of electing Biggs to restore Arizona's conservative values.

Dr. Thomas West [02:41]: "We are on the cusp of turning this state red again... This governor has actually hindered the economic growth that we should be having."

Kirk and West discuss the importance of swift electoral changes, using Arizona as a pivotal state for the conservative movement.

Charlie Kirk [05:10]: "We have such untapped potential here in this state. And the people that are moving to Arizona are actually very Republican, very conservative."

3. Campaign Strategy and Future Plans

Timestamp: [07:27] – [12:26]

Dr. Thomas West shares insights into the extensive campaign efforts across Arizona's diverse and expansive counties, emphasizing the strategic focus on both urban and rural areas. He highlights the support from local communities and the alignment of Biggs' policies with the state's needs.

Dr. Thomas West [07:49]: "We have 15 huge counties... The people are great. They've been incredibly supportive, gracious and welcoming."

The conversation shifts to broader economic strategies, including infrastructure improvements like desalination plants and nuclear power, as well as leveraging Arizona's intellectual capital to drive the AI revolution.

Charlie Kirk [08:02]: "We need more desal plants, we need to build more, maybe even another nuclear plant."

4. Budgetary Challenges and Legislative Efforts

Timestamp: [12:26] – [18:05]

Charlie Kirk addresses the recent failure of the "big beautiful bill" in the budget committee, a significant setback in fiscal policy aimed at reducing government spending. He questions the adequacy of the proposed cuts and emphasizes the need for immediate and substantial fiscal reforms.

Charlie Kirk [13:28]: "This does not cut spending enough. Is that fair to say?"

Dr. Thomas West acknowledges the challenges faced but remains optimistic about revising and reintroducing the bill with necessary adjustments to meet fiscal targets.

Dr. Thomas West [12:59]: "I knew the bill might be in trouble, but that there was enough votes to actually kill it in committee surprised me."

The discussion also covers the importance of federalism and reducing indirect subsidies to states with bloated government programs, advocating for a restoration of fiscal responsibility.

Charlie Kirk [16:51]: "It's an indirect subsidy to Democrat policies."

5. In-Depth Interview: Founders' Intent and Birthright Citizenship

Timestamp: [19:22] – [36:05]

Following a series of sponsor messages, the podcast transitions to a comprehensive interview with Dr. Thomas West. The conversation explores the interpretation of birthright citizenship through the lens of the Founding Fathers, challenging contemporary applications and emphasizing original intent.

Andy Biggs [19:41]: "The founders, of course, have been happy with birthright citizenship for children of citizens... citizenship was supposed to be based on consent both ways."

Dr. West articulates that the Founders intended citizenship to entail mutual consent, both from the state and the individual, contrasting sharply with modern practices that extend citizenship automatically to children of non-citizens, including those in illegal statuses.

Dr. Thomas West [22:43]: “It's a denial of the rights of citizens because of their inherent right to liberty... and that's the way that's a violation of their rights as well.”

The discussion delves into the 14th Amendment, with Dr. West arguing that its original application did not intend to include the children of foreign nationals, a stance that has been altered by contemporary judicial interpretations.

Andy Biggs [26:15]: "The 14th Amendment was written by people who were fully conscious of the principles of the founding... subject to the jurisdiction [of the U.S.] meant subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign power."

Charlie Kirk and Dr. West also critique the modern reinterpretation of foundational concepts like liberty and equality, asserting that these terms have been distorted from their original conservative meanings to align with progressive agendas.

Charlie Kirk [30:56]: "That's not true. The Founders themselves were much more conservative than almost anybody today who goes under the name of conservative."

6. Conclusion and Call to Action

Timestamp: [36:05] – [36:57]

As the episode wraps up, Charlie Kirk reiterates unwavering support for Andy Biggs' gubernatorial campaign, encouraging listeners to engage and support the upcoming efforts to transform Arizona's political landscape.

Charlie Kirk [36:35]: "Dr. West, phenomenal work. Thank you for your impact on my life."

The episode concludes with a final endorsement of Biggs and an invitation for listeners to participate in future events.

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Key Takeaways:

• Endorsement of Andy Biggs: Charlie Kirk and Thomas West robustly endorse Andy Biggs for Governor of Arizona, highlighting his alignment with conservative values and Trump's support.

• Political Strategy: Emphasis on reversing Democratic control in Arizona through targeted policies on border security, economic growth, deregulation, and educational reform.

• Fiscal Responsibility: Discussion on the failure of the "big beautiful bill," advocating for substantial and immediate government spending cuts to address national debt and deficits.

• Founders' Intent: In-depth exploration of the Founders' vision regarding citizenship, liberty, and equality, arguing for a return to original constitutional interpretations.

• Call to Action: Encouragement for listeners to support Biggs' campaign and engage with Turning Point USA's initiatives to foster conservative change.

Notable Quotes:

• Charlie Kirk [00:00]: "We are planting the flag. And I make the case as to why Andy Biggs will be a phenomenal governor..."

• Dr. Thomas West [02:41]: "We are on the cusp of turning this state red again..."

• Charlie Kirk [13:28]: "This does not cut spending enough..."

• Andy Biggs [19:41]: "Citizenship was supposed to be based on consent both ways."

• Dr. Thomas West [30:56]: "The Founders themselves were much more conservative than almost anybody today who goes under the name of conservative."

This episode serves as a comprehensive endorsement of Andy Biggs for Arizona governor, intertwined with deep dives into constitutional principles and current legislative challenges, all aimed at mobilizing the conservative base to effect meaningful political change.

Transcript

[Charlie Kirk]

Hey, everybody. Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio. Big news. We have endorsed Andy Biggs for governor of Arizona. The entire Turning Point Action machinery is getting behind the true conservative endorsed by President Trump, Andy Biggs. The election is still a way out, but we are planting the flag. And I make the case as to why Andy Biggs will be a phenomenal governor, a great candidate, and why we need to unite behind Andy Biggs to be Governor of State 48. Email us. As always, freedomarliekirk.com subscribe to our podcast, that is the Charlie Kirk show podcast page. Become a member. Today it's Members.CharlieKirk.com that is Members.CharlieKirk.com and get involved with Turning Point [e-mail] that is TPUSA.com Buckle up, everybody. Here we go.

[Andy Biggs]

Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

What you've done is incredible here.

[Thomas West]

Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

[Andy Biggs]

I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

[Thomas West]

I want to thank Charlie. Incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa.

[Charlie Kirk]

We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives. And we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble gold [e-mail] that is noblegoldinvestments.com it's where I buy all of my gold. Go to noblegoldinvestments.com we're going to break some news here today. We're really excited as we're broadcasting live in State 48 here in the beautiful state of Arizona. We are going to make our endorsement official for the governor's race. We have to win back the governor's mansion here in Arizona. And we are fully endorsing my friend Andy Biggs. Andy, we are behind you 100%, and we're excited to make you the next governor of the state of Arizona.

[Thomas West]

Thanks, Charlie. You know, you are the leader in the conservative movement today around the country, and to have your endorsement and your team's endorsement that means so much, it's incredible. We're gonna win this thing, Charlie. There's not a doubt in my mind.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. And so tell us why you're running. And you know, this is an incredible opportunity because this state voted for President Trump, more so than any other battleground state. We are increasingly a red state, but we have a Democrat governor, we have a Democrat Secretary of State, we have a Democrat attorney general, we have two Democrat senators. And it all starts with getting you as governor.

[Thomas West]

Yeah, I think so. We're on the cusp of turning this state red again, and it has to go red again. Because if you think of everything from the border security problem that we had under this current governor, first thing she did, Charlie, was disband the border security task force, which has led to higher crime, where the gateway to fentanyl. Something like 50% of all fentanyl coming into the country comes through Arizona. We've got to stop that. So Trump's done a great job on the border. We still have a problem there. This governor has actually hindered the economic growth that we should be having. Arizona is a great state, and there are businesses that want to come here and locate here. She has not worked on deregulation. She's not worked on creating energy. She's not worked on making sure we had the water resources or the other infrastructure we need. You know, that stuff has got to be taken care of. Education, I mean, how come our NAEP scores keep going down, but we keep spending more money on education in Arizona? We need bang for the buck there. And then, I guess, ultimately the prototypical thing for her is she has vetoed more bills than ever. And here's one. The Election Integrity Bill. We want to know who wins our election on election evening. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not three weeks later.

[Thomas West]

Exactly, exactly. Why is that so hard? And she vetoed that.

[Charlie Kirk]

We are the mockery of the country when it comes to counting our votes. And so it was just a matter of doing it quicker, as Florida does it. You must have all your votes in by a certain amount of time. You must.

[Thomas West]

Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's what our bill was. It was modeled on Florida. I have to tell you, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, members of Congress tell me, sometimes they say, we're grateful for Arizona. First time I heard, I said, why is that? And they said, because you make our elections look like they're run smoothly. You guys are a disaster. We are in embarrassment. So these are things that we can take care of, Charlie, and we can do it the first week that I'm elected because I know how the place runs. I served in the state legislature. I know how that place runs. I worked with two different governors. I know how the executive branch works here in Arizona. I wrote Budgets for the state. I know how you budget the state.

[Charlie Kirk]

I didn't even know all that background. So you've worked in the cap as well, obviously being a fighter in D.C. yeah, absolutely.

[Thomas West]

Right. So I wrote many state budgets and it's not hard if you actually get into it and dig. But we haven't had anybody that wants to do that. And that's what we got to do. And if we do that, I think we can turn the state red again.

[Charlie Kirk]

We can turn into the floor of the West.

[Thomas West]

Absolutely. In fact, I told Byron Donalds, it's like I called him up when he announced and I had already announced, and I said, byron, you know what's going to happen about 90 days after we're elected? And he said no. And I said, you're going to see a couple of red dots leaving you. And he says, what's that? And I said, that's our taillights, Arizona's taillights. As we go past you as the most conservative, productive state in the country.

[Charlie Kirk]

There is such untapped potential here in this state. And the people that are moving to Arizona are actually very Republican, very conservative. And also, you are endorsed by President Donald Trump. You are Trump endorsed for this race. Everyone needs to know that President Donald Trump has endorsed you. And we're honored to second that.

[Thomas West]

Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. President Trump, I mean, he and I have a great relationship. I like to say, you know, it's one thing to have as endorsements, but it's another thing to, you know, have a personal relationship with a guy. I mean, we're talking about. We've golfed together, we've dined together, we've for years.

[Charlie Kirk]

You've had his past.

[Thomas West]

Yes, that's right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Through the Impeachments, through January 6th. You never wavered throughout all of that.

[Thomas West]

That's right. In fact, I got investigated for staying with him.

[Charlie Kirk]

You know, the January 6th thing, they came after you pretty hard. And you never, ever wavered, ever.

[Thomas West]

Well, there was no need to waver. He was in the right. And I mean, the Ukraine thing was a disaster. That bogus impeachment over that phone call, I mean, that was Charlie, that was bogus. But our colleagues, a lot of our colleagues, they kind of fled him. But the reality is there were a lot of us there standing with him. And then the late Nancy Pelosi impeachment and then the Mueller investigation, I think it was one of the first ones. I think it was me and Louie Gohmert that stood up and said, Mueller is compromised. He should not be doing this. And we had our own party saying we want to do this investigation. I'm like, that is. That's bizarre. Now, Mueller ended up not finding anything, which we knew he wouldn't.

[Charlie Kirk]

So let's just focus again. We're 100% behind Andy. It's the ways out from the election. We're doing this early to set the tone, to be very clear. And we're going to be doing an event, by the way, together at the, I believe, the Arizona Biltmore, which kind of has some legend in Arizona politics. We're doing that May 31st. Everyone should come by. It's at 2pm at the Arizona Biltmore Resort. That is two weeks kind of an announcement. Bigs for governor. You're gonna be working the state all summer. I imagine you've already working your tail off. Please tell us.

[Thomas West]

Yeah, no, Charlie, you're right. I've been all over the state. We have 15 huge counties. I was in one county and I said, how. Remind me how big our county is. Is this county's as big as New Jersey. So we have massive counties here. And I've been through the majority of those. In fact, one of the. One of the counties I went to said, nobody comes to our county. And I said, well, I am.

[Charlie Kirk]

Was it Cochise or what was it?

[Thomas West]

It was. He lost a Graham. Graham.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Thomas West]

Graham's kind of. Kind of out of the way. It's because you don't have a freeway to it.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's lesser appreciated. Yeah, but that all adds up. Going to all those counties add up.

[Thomas West]

Yeah. I mean, the people are great. They've been incredibly supportive, gracious and welcoming, and they all want this state to succeed too. I mean, so we've got. You've got the mineral counties, you've got places that we should be doing mining.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. And there's so much potential, by the way. This is a. We need more desal plants, we need to build more, maybe even another nuclear plant. But the AI revolution could be powered here in Arizona, the intellectual capital of this state. And you represent the East Valley, Chandler, Gilbert Mesa, Queen Creek, is that right?

[Thomas West]

That's right. San Tan Valley.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And so there is so much the best of America lives in the east valley of Phoenix. I believe that it's a family state. Talk about that. This is one of the most family friendly states in the country. We want to make it even more so.

[Thomas West]

Yeah, I mean, so. So everything from educational choice to support parents as they raise their children. You want to have good, solid communities and we have some places that have fallen on hard times because I think because bad leadership either on the local level or at the state level from our governor. But you want to make sure that they're safe and can get out and have fun and play and grow as families. But you also want to make sure that their jobs are there. And Arizona could, I mean, when you start talking about it, I've talked with the folks at TSMC when I went to Taiwan, met with those folks. There is so much we can do there, Charlie. And you're right. If we make sure our power grid is strong, provides reliable and dispersible energy, we're going to be able to welcome in the data centers and AI data that's going to provide incredible jobs. We, we have the employee infrastructure here. ASU's got. When you start telling them that we have over 30,000 engineering students at ASU, you talk to these businesses, they're like, really had no idea. So we can get on this bus and build this state and provide these great jobs and then protect, you know, you got to protect the water and the range management that we have to deal. So forest has got to be taken care of.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is a biodiverse state that people don't recognize. You go 90 miles north of here to Payson, you think you're in Colorado. I mean, you have incredible forest. You have the Grand Canyon, right? We have unbelievable. We have, I think we have four national parks in the state. We have down south and in Tucson. We have incredible beauty in this state. I love it. It's home. But again, why are the Democrats running the state? We have to stop it. We have to end it. We're going to talk about that in the next break. I also need to ask you about the big beautiful bill because that is some breaking news. The website, though, is biggs4Arizona.com b I g g s 4Arizona.com chip in some money. President Donald Trump has endorsed Andy Biggs for governor of Arizona. And you guys should give him all of your support. Breaking news here. We're endorsing Andy Biggs for governor. We're just following President Trump's endorsement. The conservative running for governor here in Arizona, it's still a ways away. We're still like, what, 15 months out, but we're setting the tone early. Bigsforarizona.com that is bigs for Arizona.com Ask 10 people to define the word capitalism. How many different responses do you think you'll get? This is a word that comes up all the time. But does anyone Know what it really means? Do you? Hillsdale College offers more than 40 free online courses. That's right. Free online courses on subjects like the book of Genesis, the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, the history of the ancient Christian church. It's hard for me to even say which is my personal favorite. You guys have got to take these online courses. They've recently launched a new course, understanding Capitalism, that I've been watching. In seven lectures, you'll learn about the role of profit and loss, how human nature plays a part in our economic system, why capitalism depends on private property rights, the rule of law, and above all, freedom. And why capitalism is ultimately a system that. That encourages morality rather than undermines it. Right now, go to charlieforhillsdale.com to enroll. There's no cost, and it's easy to get started. That's charlieforhillsdale.com the Register, C H-A R L I E for hillsdale.com we are here with Andy Biggs, the next governor of the great state of Arizona. Still a ways out. It's gonna be a long campaign season, Andy.

[Thomas West]

Yeah, it is. But you know what? We gotta run through it. Run through the tape totally and get through it and win.

[Charlie Kirk]

The breaking news is that the big, beautiful bill has failed in the budget committee. I was just talking with my good friend here, Andy Biggs, soon to be governor Andy Biggs of the state. We're actually talking about i11 and our good friend Mike Ingram. We gotta build a highway from Phoenix to Las Vegas, but we'll talk about that at another time. Very important. We need a highway from Phoenix to Vegas. But let's talk about the big, beautiful bill. So you are in the House right now. You're gonna serve out your entire term while also running for governor. This bill failed. Is that a surprise to you?

[Thomas West]

Yes and no. I mean, I knew the bill might be in trouble, but that there was enough votes to actually kill it in committee surprised me. They're going to have to redo it and bring it back up. And no doubt working this weekend to try to get rid of some of the warts. It's a big, beautiful bill. There's a lot of beautiful stuff in it, Charlie, but it's got a few warts and unsightly blemishes on the face of that beautiful bill.

[Charlie Kirk]

So, yeah, I mean, let's just. Again, I support the president, completely support the White House. I was just texting with the White House staff today. Be like, hey, what's going on? This is kind of disorienting. I want to get my marching orders. And they were really quick to respond. But this for my liking and for yours, this does not cut spending enough. Is that fair to say?

[Thomas West]

Yeah, I think that's fair to say. And then. And then most of that spending reductions, Charlie, are taking place in the last two years of that 10 year cycle. And as our experience tells us, they're just not gonna.

[Charlie Kirk]

They're not gonna realize them.

[Thomas West]

Yeah, they're not gonna get those cuts.

[Charlie Kirk]

So explain to me that in the budget vote that just failed, was this as the President submitted it, or did Congress change what the President submitted?

[Thomas West]

The framework was largely there, but they changed the details. So the way to think of it is you put a work requirement on able bodied adults who are receiving benefits. Right. None of that kicks in until after President Trump's out of office. And that's a $360 billion savings over 10 years. But it needs to be spread out over the whole 10 years. And because, as you know, after President Trump's out of office, a new President or a new Congress could come in and just wipe that out and kill that savings.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And so while everybody. This is a little bit of a shocking news item. This is not our last chance. I mean, we could do votes forever. I mean, what we did, 25 speaker votes.

[Thomas West]

So something like that. Charlie, you had to go there, did you?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, that's good. I mean, look, that's Andy. He's a principled guy. That's why we need him as governor. No, but I'm saying, though, that we could do more.

[Thomas West]

Absolutely.

[Charlie Kirk]

And we got to get people back into the room and say, hey, we have to have real cuts and not just future projected. Hope so. Promising cuts, because as Steve Bannon would say, the bond markets get a vote, too. And we are going to ignore the fiscal apocalypse, the looming national debt and deficit. Then what good are we doing here?

[Thomas West]

I'm with you all the way. And we get back to. Does it have to be a big, beautiful bill? The tax package that's in there is pretty good, right? Because it continues all the extension. It extends everything from the Tax Jobs act, but it also gives you the no tax on tips, no tax on seniors, no tax on overtime, those types of things. I can't remember. There's a fourth one in there. How about if you just did that bill first? What would it look like if you did that?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, I totally agree. In fact, I was always a two bill guy. I thought that again, I'm not in charge and the President knows far more than I do. And I support whatever he decides. But in my kind of elementary wisdom, I said that, why don't we get a win the first hundred days on border and then do tax over the summer? But.

[Thomas West]

Well, you know, there was so many ways to do it. The President wanted a big, beautiful bill, and that's fine.

[Charlie Kirk]

I get the mentality of it. I get it.

[Thomas West]

Yeah. And I told him, I said, I actually support a big, beautiful bill if we use the leverage. Right. To get everybody on. I mean, so you have the salt states, right? I mean, you've got a group of people there.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is a huge thing.

[Thomas West]

Yeah. This is the state and local tax, and they want other Americans to subsidize their high property taxes to the tune of about 250. That $250 billion over 10 years was too little for them. They wanted more.

[Charlie Kirk]

We got to keep salt up the way it is. But it's not even the high taxes. We're subsidizing their bloated government programs indirectly. So we're subsidizing the California pension fund because they can't get their fiscal act together.

[Thomas West]

That's exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's an indirect subsidy to Democrat policies.

[Thomas West]

Totally correct.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think the fact we got rid of salt during the first Trump cuts shocked me, and I think we gotta keep salt out of the way. I think the salt. State and local deduction. I know that blue state people lose their mind. I'm sorry, guys, but is it property tax? It's state and local, or is it property taxes?

[Thomas West]

It's both.

[Charlie Kirk]

I thought so.

[Thomas West]

Yes. But the bottom line is the offer. It was in the bill. It was in this bill, Charlie. Give $30,000 up to $30,000 deduction. That would have cost us 250 billion plus.

[Charlie Kirk]

But then people want to write off their property taxes. I say no property taxes. Also in, like, Chicago, they're funding all the public sector teacher unions. The federal government should not give you any sort of alleviation for your. Your local government should exist separate from the federal government budget. Continue.

[Thomas West]

No, no, you're right. I mean, that's the. That's what I call the restoration of federalism that Trump's actually getting into. And he's doing a great job. And you see it all over what he's doing by cutting down the size of the federal government. But, I mean, so there's just some of. Just some other issues that I hope we work through.

[Charlie Kirk]

Andy Biggs is gonna come back. We're 100% behind him. Biggsforarizona.com, we got a big event coming up in two weeks, Andy. Keep fighting for what's right. Thank you.

[Thomas West]

Thank you. Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

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[Andy Biggs]

Yeah, happy to be here, Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you are an expert, I would say, on how the founders would view certain issues, how they would view political matters. How would the founders interpret the idea of birthright citizenship in its current form in this country?

[Andy Biggs]

The founders, of course, have been happy with birthright citizenship for children of citizens. And of course, that's primarily what birthright citizenship meant to them. In today's world, there's this new idea, especially being promoted on the left, that birthright ought to apply to children who are not children of citizens and in fact, who are citizens of other countries. And even, of course, in the case of illegal. So all of that. But from the point of view of the founders, citizenship was a very dis. Had a very distinct meaning. You had to be a member of the society to be a citizen. And what did that. What that meant was you are one of the people who makes, who agrees to and abides by the social compact. What is that? That is, the social compact is the agreement among a group of individuals who decide we're going to be fellow citizens together. Once that compact is formed, it's an agreement binding on the existing citizens to obey the law, but at the same time to enjoy the privileges of the law. And that of course, is very different from what we're used to now, where citizenship has come to mean something like access to benefits and not too much. We don't hear too much anymore about duties, things like serving in the military, perhaps in time of war. But that's the basic outline. And so for them, if you're going to, if you're somebody who wants to join an existing social compact, that's something that ought to be done only when there's consent on both sides. The basic principle of the founding, all men are created equal, meant that you are supposed to, that is that you have a right to liberty, and that that right to liberty then expresses itself when you form a compact, when you agree with others to become part of a government. And that means that once the government is formed, it has a right to liberty in regard to the rest of the world. It gets to decide on its own policies. So from then on, anything, any relationship with non citizens has to be based on either the voluntary consent, as in the case of immigration policy that permits immigration, or non consent, in which case we close the borders or perhaps even go to war, if in the extreme case. But that's what it means to be a citizen and to have to have a right to liberty enforced and implemented by government.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so we're far off that mark that the Founders set and that they believed in. Why would you say, I want to reiterate this because you understand natural rights very well. Why was birthright citizenship or is birthright to citizenship a denial of both natural rights of both citizens and non citizens right?

[Andy Biggs]

It's a denial of the rights of citizens because of their inherent right to liberty, which is expressing itself in the form of a compact that makes its own rules for itself. So when the Constitution says we the people of the United States, that's characteristic of the founder's way of thinking. Government is only for the people who are part of the compact. No one else. If anyone else in the world, you know, wants, wants to be and wants to join, then there has to be consent. But why is it a violation of the, of the rights of non citizens to be told all of a sudden your children are citizens? And that's because citizenship, from the point of view of the Founders, is supposed to be based on consent both ways. So if you happen to be here in America and have a child, say a tourist or something like that, who doesn't want to have it. You know, who doesn't didn't intend to make their kids into Americans. All of a sudden they're Americans and all of a sudden then they're subject to the draft, subject to paying income tax for life, subject to any kind of claim that the United States government has a right to make on anyone who is a citizen. And that's a denial of their right to liberty. Right. They were just their attitude, their point, what their attitude might have been. I just came here to visit, not to find my kids all of a sudden stuck in this position of having all kinds of duties to America throughout their lives. And that's the way. That's why that's a violation of their rights as well. That's why from the point of view of the founders, it has to be consent both ways. The citizens have to consent to the newcomers and the newcomers have to consent to be part of America. And we've so lost sight of that that it's really almost impossible any longer to discuss this topic without people getting confused about, I don't know, the rights of the whole world to welfare or health care or whatever it is that we have to offer here. Better jobs, a better police force. The whole concept of citizenship would exclude all of that. The idea is that everyone else in the world is supposed to take care of themselves. That's what citizenship means, both for us and for other nations.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course, I mean, it's so self evident that if you deprive other countries the ability to be self reliant and to take individual responsibility, they will weaken. And then those you only actually further subsidize the decline of both their country and your own. So there was, let's just say, a looming question some would have about citizenship and some would argue that the 14th Amendment partly set that straight from the text of the 14th Amendment. I know that you're not a legal scholar, but you are a great historian. What would you say about the 14th Amendment and how it connects to this idea of birthright citizenship? Do you think the intent of the 14th Amendment and the way the founders viewed the structure of our government should apply to somebody on birth tourism?

[Andy Biggs]

No. The 14th Amendment was written by people who were fully conscious of the principles of the founding and who quoted them all the time in the congressional debates. This is common knowledge among scholars of that period. So the idea that birthright citizenship should include the children of non citizens was explicitly ruled out in this 1866 Civil Rights act which preceded the 14th Amendment by two years. In the 66 act, they explicitly said that the rights that they were listing in the law did not apply to children of did not apply to foreigners, which meant children of foreigners. When the 14th Amendment was written, instead of explicitly saying it doesn't apply to foreigners, they used the phrase that citizens had to be born here and subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Subject to the jurisdiction from the point of view of those people who made the 14th amendment was meant to be more or less equivalent to not being subject to the jurisdiction. Not subject to the jurisdiction of the US Meant subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign power. So any citizen of another nation would automatically have been excluded from the 14th Amendment definition of citizenship. For a long time that was understood in the legal community, in the courts, when it came to questioning, you know, questions arose of like is so and so a citizen. It really it's much quite a ways quite a time. Quite a lot of time had to pass after the 14th amendment before people began to introduce into it the much more strained and artificial reading, which I think is incorrect, that we are now living with.

[Charlie Kirk]

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[Andy Biggs]

Well, we've. Yes, we've. We've done a whole series of video courses at the college here. I've been involved in a few of them. I highly recommend that those courses for people who are, who are interested in this question. My take on the Founding I think I would say is not only a response to the leftist critique that the Founders didn't really believe in equality. We hear a lot about that and I'm almost a little bit tired of that debate. It's so obvious that they did care. But the other more interesting debate is critique coming from the right. The Founders are too interested in liberty and equality and therefore prepare the way for what we have now in 21st century liberalism. That's what my focus has been on. And what I've been trying to show is that's not true. The Founders themselves were much more conservative than almost anybody today who goes under the name of conservative.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm gonna keep you for another segment. Dr. West, that is so interesting to me. I'm gonna keep that for another segment because I'm so glad you said it that way. That was one of the great insights I've gathered from your work. Cuz I'm told by professors and from activists on campuses, not Hillsdale, the Founders were a bunch of liberals. They were small L liberals that were simply enlightenment. But your scholarship shows no, actually they were far more conservative than you would ever give them credit for. Dr. West, please tell us more about the Founders because I am told that they were liberals. The common view on these campuses, that they were trying to change the structure of British governance and the Declaration was fundamentally a small l liberal statement. What is your contention and what would you like to share with the audience?

[Andy Biggs]

I think the mistake that a lot of conservatives make is they hear the words equality and liberty and they just assume they have the same idea about that that people today do when they have transformed those terms into something very different from the Founding. You can just take the case of immigration itself for example. For the Founders, the character of the people was fundamental to the future of a free country. They didn't believe in anything goes. They believed you had to have a people that had enough character, enough self restraint, but also self assertion, like courage, virtues, like courage, vigilance, forthrightness. They thought only that kind of a people would survive, would be able to maintain a free country. And so immigration. Right. So they talked about this. Well where do we want our immigrants from. And the answer predominantly was, we need European immigrants. We want people who are going to be able to assimilate, not just in the sense of being able to mouth the slogans, you know, all men are created equal, which is the way it's often discussed today, but rather like people who had the right kind of character and the right kind of moral orientation to be serious and earnest citizens. And you can say one of the ways in which you also see this element in the Founding is their preoccupation with education, like moral education. There had to be, from their point of view, a citizen body that understood virtues like justice, moderation, courage, topics that are discussed in several of the state constitutions as essential to a free country. Conservatives today are often unaware of those kinds of features of the Founding. And yet they were fundamentally. They were central from the point of view of the Founders themselves. You want a third example? You can take the family. From the point of view of the Founders, the family was fundamental. Family did not mean. It didn't mean gay rights and gay marriage. It meant you want men and women to get together, marry, stay married, and raise responsible children. They thought of that as a central feature, again, of a free society. And what we have, we've just forgotten that we think today that the Founders believed you could just do whatever you wanted to in regard to sex and reproduction. And that element, again, that conservative element, we would call it today of the Founders has been largely forgotten.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why do. In just two minutes remaining, Dr. West, why do you think it's been forgotten? Has it been an intentional omission, or has it just been gross negligence?

[Andy Biggs]

No, it's intentional. The reason why people don't understand the Founding anymore starts with the attack that began about 150 years ago on the Founders, very explicitly during the early progressive era, starting in the 1880s. And that attack became radicalized and deepened in the 1960s and 70s. So that is their argument was what the Founders were doing was fundamentally racist, sexist, and homophobic, and therefore it should be rejected altogether. That's on the one hand. But on the other hand, they also made the argument of we can take over their terms. We can use their language, the language of liberty, equality, freedom, constitutionalism, and turn that to our purposes. And so those phrases have come to mean almost the exact opposite in many cases of what people thought they meant in the Founding. And that was intentional. They want us to think that what equality means is making everybody the same, giving everybody the same income, homogenizing the population, cutting down on people who have excellence, getting away from meritocracy, getting away from aspiring to excellence and strength. That was from the point of view of the founders, what liberty was for. Full development of the human virtues and qualities that make man great when he is at his peak. And now today we've substituted for that in the same name, the name of equality and liberty, this other ideal, the ideal of making everybody the same, pushing us down into a kind of morass of mediocrity and turning that into a definition of what virtue is and freedom. And so that's unfortunate that we no longer understand this, but it was no, it's part of an agenda that led to that change. And I think we need to be able to oppose that today.

[Charlie Kirk]

Dr. West, phenomenal work. Thank you for your impact on my life. Everyone can learn more from Dr. West at charlieforhillsdale. Com. That's charlieforhillsdale. Com. Thank you, Dr. West.

[Andy Biggs]

Thanks.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk. Com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless.

[Thomas West]

For more on many of these stories.

[Andy Biggs]

And news you can trust, go to charliekirk.

[Thomas West]

Com.