The Charlie Kirk Show
Episode: Ben Shapiro | The Great American Divorce
Date: July 21, 2020
Guest: Ben Shapiro, Editor Emeritus of The Daily Wire, Author of How to Destroy America in Three Easy Steps
Episode Overview
In this episode, Charlie Kirk is joined by Ben Shapiro to discuss Shapiro's new book, How to Destroy America in Three Easy Steps. The conversation centers on the deepening ideological divide in America, which Shapiro frames as "unionism" versus "disintegrationism". They delve into how the American consensus on philosophy, history, and culture is eroding, what that means for the future of the country, and why the prospect of a "Great American Divorce"—a cultural and possibly geographic split—is more real than ever. The discussion addresses economic, political, and cultural reasons for division, whether the union can be saved, and what average citizens can do about it.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Defining America's Divide: Unionism vs. Disintegrationism
- [05:23] Ben Shapiro explains that every nation must share three things: a common philosophy, culture, and history. America’s founding philosophy is grounded in natural rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) that preexist government.
- The “culture of rights” relies on mutual tolerance, support for voluntary institutions, and individual virtue.
- The shared interpretation of American history is one of striving to realize founding ideals, not one of inherent evil (contrasted with the 1619 Project, which he criticizes).
- Shapiro: “When you said, ‘America is a great country,’ there weren’t a huge swath of Americans going, ‘No, you’re wrong. America sucks.’ That was not a thing... until the 60s..." [09:55]
2. The Threat of Disintegrationism
- Disintegrationists reject the shared philosophy/history/culture and see America as fundamentally flawed.
- This radical approach, according to Shapiro, has increasingly moved from the margins to a sizable minority capable of pushing mainstream ideas (i.e., cancel culture, rewriting history, anti-patriotism).
- [12:36] Shapiro: “On the one hand, I’m more pessimistic... Disintegrationists are really taking off the mask at this point that I think there’s the real possibility of a backlash.”
3. Economics and Cultural Decline: Cause or Effect?
- Kirk questions whether the economic plight of middle-class workers is fueling the country’s disintegration.
- Shapiro pushes back, arguing most radical disintegrationists are upper-class, college-educated, and concentrated in liberal cities—not in economically struggling, rural communities.
- Shapiro: “You’re seeing this with all the college-educated morons in Seattle and Portland who are running around burning crap. You’re not seeing these riots in the middle of white Appalachia...” [21:32]
- They debate whether economic grievances or ideological/cultural shifts play the greater role in fueling division.
4. Conservative Failures and the Role of Government
- Both agree that conservatives have sometimes failed to address the economic and cultural anxieties that enable radicalism.
- Shapiro cautions against an overreliance on government intervention—whether in economics or culture—warning that the tools you create can be used against you.
- Shapiro: “Be careful what you wish for. Politics is the monkey’s law.” [34:49]
- They discuss subsidiarity—delegating power locally—as preferable to top-down federal solutions.
5. Big Tech, Corporate Activism, and Monopolies
- Kirk presses Shapiro on whether Big Tech’s influence and corporate activism require government intervention.
- Shapiro expresses deep concern about left-leaning corporate culture but resists calls for greater regulation, predicting instead the rise of parallel right- and left-wing companies, which would further cultural siloing.
- Shapiro: “Do I think that that calls for regulation? No... All of this accelerates the national divorce.” [37:59]
- On antitrust, Shapiro follows the consumer harm standard, not just ‘size’. He admits Google is nearing dangerous monopoly territory but isn’t quite there yet. [40:44]
6. Is a National Divorce Inevitable?
- [42:12] Kirk: “Do you think [national divorce] is inevitable?”
- Shapiro: “I think that a sort of natural dissolution... starts to look more like the Articles of Confederation than... the Constitution. Instead of a unified country, you have all these states basically running themselves... I mean, the EU came apart. I don’t see why if the values... come apart, you won’t see an increasing willingness to divorce.”
- Both reflect on the lived gulf between places like South Dakota and California—different realities, different values.
7. 2020 Election, Trump, and Republican Strategy
- Shapiro’s advice to Trump: Project focus and seriousness, especially on COVID; defend his record using positive testimonials from Democratic governors; and present himself as a bulwark against radicalism.
- Shapiro: “A focused and concerted attempt to focus on two issues: unifying the country and fighting COVID. That’s what he needs to be campaigning on.” [46:39]
- Discusses Biden’s “risk-averse” strategy, speculates about VP choices, and the chances Biden could skip debates.
- Shapiro confirms he will vote for Trump in 2020, having switched from his 2016 NeverTrump stance.
- Shapiro: “Just because you support Trump doesn’t mean that you agree with all of his foibles... you look at Trump and you say, this guy is going to be a bulwark against the people who actually want to disintegrate all of these common ties.” [54:07]
8. Prescriptive Solutions: What Can People Do?
- Both agree: fostering strong social and community ties, living virtuously, and having direct influence with family and friends are the most meaningful ways to strengthen America.
- Shapiro: “The most important things that you can do are forge social ties with others... Influence the people around you, lead a good and virtuous life, and you’ll be doing a lot more than even people in the public sphere do to help change the nature of the country.” [60:42]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Kirk: "Ben, in the book you say Americans basically want a divorce... essentially saying we're headed for this no matter what." [11:18]
- Shapiro: “The radical left is so radical... they are really taking off the mask.” [13:30]
- Shapiro: “Markets are a recognition of fundamental human nature... The same government that is capable of suggesting that markets are merely a tool to achieve an outcome can rob you of all your economic rights.” [18:12]
- Shapiro: “I think that Republicans tend to be solutions-oriented in a time when they need to be culture fight-oriented. Trump is culture fight-oriented and not solutions-oriented.” [56:35]
- Shapiro: “If I think that [the bulwark against disintegrationism is] Trump, then I’ll vote for Trump.” [55:16]
- Kirk: “Have you changed your mind about anything lately?”
Shapiro: “Maybe I went from a little more optimistic about the country to a little more pessimistic.” [58:15]
- Shapiro, closing: “How to destroy America in three easy steps... that's what the disintegrationists are trying to do. It is preventable, but it's going to require some actual re-education of ourselves and reinculcation and founding principle and a new sort of patriotic fervor that drives us all together instead of apart.” [61:49]
Timeline of Key Segments
| Timestamp | Segment / Topic |
|-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------|
| 05:23 | Shapiro explains unionism vs. disintegrationism |
| 11:18 | Kirk introduces the "Great American Divorce" concept |
| 12:36 | Shapiro on rise of disintegrationist minority |
| 18:12 | Economic decline vs. cultural decline debate |
| 21:27 | Shapiro: Radicalism rooted in ideology, not poverty |
| 31:19 | Threat of demagogues, government as dangerous tool |
| 37:26 | Corporate activism and the leftward tilt of Big Tech |
| 40:44 | Antitrust, Google’s monopoly, skepticism about regulation |
| 42:12 | Is national divorce inevitable? Articles of Confederation |
| 46:39 | Trump campaign advice, 2020 election assessment |
| 53:31 | Vice President speculation, Duckworth, Kamala Harris |
| 54:07 | Shapiro’s Trump endorsement explained |
| 60:42 | What individuals can do to save the country |
| 61:49 | Closing thoughts |
Tone and Style
The conversation is candid, urgent, and pragmatic. Shapiro, ever the debater, keeps a tightly reasoned, structured tone, while Kirk interjects with personal observations and anecdotal reflections from his activism. There's a sense of shared alarm about America's trajectory, but also some underlying optimism that the union can still be preserved—if enough citizens take up the task of personal and cultural renewal.
Final Takeaway
This episode showcases an incisive conversation about America’s identity crisis, the real roots of its internal divisions, and the potential for a national schism. Shapiro and Kirk dissect both cultural and economic trends, challenge their own sides, and ultimately urge listeners to engage meaningfully at a personal level, insisting the “Great American Divorce” is not inevitable—if Americans remember and recommit to their founding values.