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A
Hey, everybody. One of my favorite conversations I've had recently is right here on the Charlie Kirk show with Daniel Horowitz from Conservative Review. He's super smart and he makes some incredibly important points when it comes to voter fraud. Where are the Republicans? And did you know that there is one last line of defense, it's called the US Senate, that could possibly prevent Joe Biden from becoming president. That and so much more on this program. If you feel blessed by this program in any way and we have helped you make sense of the news and you want to get behind our work, our team, our research that we are publishing and doing here on the Charlie Kirk show, go to charliekirk.com support. That is where you can support what we are doing every single day to get the news information that you trust. And if you want more young people to hear this message, go to charliekirk.com support Daniel Horowitz is here. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go.
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B
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
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A
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
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B
I want you to know we are
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A
lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
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B
I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa.
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A
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Look, it's Christmas season and a lot of you guys are emailing us. Freedom. Charliekirk.com how do I give back this Christmas season? Look, I know it's been a tough year, but those of us that are Christians, we are called to help and to assist regardless of the circumstances around us. Whether we had a blessed year or a tough year, it's time to step up and do something. I think we all know that. That's why we are partnering with Angel Tree. Angel Tree is great. They help kids whose parents are in prison. It's not even about the fact of what their parents did. It's the fact that the kids are alone. And the kids, if they do not hear from their parents, they're more likely to also get involved in crime in the future. So let's really communicate the love of Jesus Christ with a personalized note from their dad and an access to a Bible in either Spanish or English. And that's what the Fellowship Angel Tree program does. Last year, the Angel Tree program blessed over 300,000 children of prisoners all across America. What's so cool is that if you give directly, it doesn't go to overhead or all that stuff. It goes straight to the kid, especially this Christmas season. And so let's just keep it easy. Just go to charliekirk.com there's a banner on the top of it, charliekirk.com and we are getting behind it. We're donating a little bit of money from the Charlie Kirk show to Angel Tree because we really believe in what they're doing. There's an Angel Tree banner there on charliekirk.com you guys can check it out and support what we are doing. And I think that's really important because for a gift of $220, you can bless 10 children of prisoners with a personalized Christmas present and a personal note from their incarcerated parent. Plus, every Angel Tree family is also given access to free, easy to read copy of the Bible in English or Spanish. So check it out@charliekirk.com very, very important. Thank you guys so much for that. Hey everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show. If you're listening to this, we have not been censored. So congratulations for that yet. We are here with Daniel Horowitz, who is one of the smartest people on the planet. I love reading everything he publishes. It's always thoughtful and very interesting. And Daniel, if my memory serves me correctly, we were on Life, Liberty and Levin together.
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B
I can't believe it. It was a couple years ago. It's the last time we were there together. And my gosh, how the world has changed since then.
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A
You were warning then about everything we're living through. Unfortunately, you're correct. I wish you would have been wrong. You have an amazing story that says a new analysis shows Biden winning nearly impossible margins on mail in ballots in Pennsylvania. It's a great article. We've referenced this three or four times on our radio program and our podcast. Walk us through it.
- [04:05]
B
Sure. I mean, the important thing about all this, like any criminal case you put together, is that you look at all the circumstantial evidence. Some cases are smoke. You don't have the fire yet, but. But you have definitive fire in a general sense. And in a specific sense, you see the smoke, you put it together and you know there's something awry. And basically, to begin with, we know the entire mail in regime was built upon a series of decisions that were made not pursuant to law. So the entire notion that you could have over two and a half million more mail in ballots in a given state one election and then somehow have rejection rates 1 27th the level of where it was when you had fewer ballots. You know, right away, wait a minute, that, that doesn't really seem to add up. But then when you delve into it, you see very specifically it not only doesn't add up from a political science perspective, it's very contradictory. And it all has the same common thread. The only common thread through all the contradictions, and that is the melons really didn't like Trump and they really liked Biden. And even relative to other people in the same party. So Biden seemed to always do better than other Democrats and mail ins and Trump seemed to do worse, even relative to other Republicans. And that's very important because everyone agrees that generally speaking, Democrats mailed out more mail in ballots and Biden would get more mail ins. But I think what's important to realize is that none of us are asserting that Trump carried Pennsylvania or Wisconsin by 10, 15 points. No, we're saying the same way. They're trying to show Biden ahead by a half a percentage or so. Really, Trump was on the other end by a half a percent or percent. So you understand, Charlie, there's a big difference between winning 65% of the statewide mail ins versus 77%. So that's the general proposition. The specifics we're seeing here is this. It's simple math. I hats off to the Secretary of state of Pennsylvania for actually breaking down the ballot returns based on election day versus mail ins. And what you'll find is if you we already know the components of that sum, how many ballots Trump got for election day, how many for mail ins. And we also know the percentage breakdown of who mailed in mail in ballots based on independent or non affiliated Republican and Democrat. If it's simple math, simple arithmetic based on the numbers we know. So I want to make it very clear this is hard data, okay? This is not speculative. In order to get the result that Biden got in total, he would have had to have gotten more than 80% of the independent vote, more than 21% of the Republican mail in vote, meaning registered Republicans, registered indies and 95% of Democrats. And the problem with that is from a political science standpoint, in the states where Democrats didn't really need to win, meaning either they were very blue or very red, you'd never, you didn't find that you could you look at, for example, let's take the Republicans. You want to tell me there's a little bit of a liberal bias in mail in voters. I could hear that even within Republicans maybe, but there is no evidence of crossover Republicans. I think we all saw that from the exit polling data lead up to the election. There was a lot of talk that Trump was losing a lot of Republicans. Not true. He might have bled a little bit with independence, not with Republicans. They actually turned out in record numbers for him. The notion that he's going to get record numbers of Republicans as the average of total mail in an election day. But if you isolate mail in 21% of registered Republicans went for Biden, that doesn't add up. Nor does the 80% indies. And actually it's a little bit more than that because the 80% number wouldn't have gotten him to the break even point that he got maybe 82%. According to exit polls in totality, Biden got about 53, 55% of independent vote. You would have to have some sort of spread of Biden getting 35, 40% of election day indies and 80, 82% of mail in independents. Again, you could say there's a little bit more of a liberal bias, but these are the things that people who do auditing and accounting, these are the type of numbers you look for. But let me just take it to the hammer here where I think what brings this out completely is this. You look down ballot. There's a lot of talk in several states about Biden only mail in ballots, which are very suspicious now. People debate over them. Well, look, there's a lot of people that they're not into the down ballot things. The presidential race is the hotel ticket. That's what everyone focuses on. And I guess implicit in that is an admission from the left that Democrats are more low information voters. So more of their dudes only fill out the presidential box. All right. I mean maybe they're right about that. Democrats tend to be more low info and they probably have that where more Democrats only fill up presidential ballot than Republicans do. The problem is if you look at the Pennsylvania situation, it basically takes out all those variables. So there was a race for state auditor and a separate race for state treasurer. Very obscure Republicans that nobody ever heard of. First time candidates, they actually won, they flipped the seats. They won with fewer votes than Trump supposedly losing. Now, okay, you could say there's less of a universe because fewer people fill out the down the ballot things. What's interesting is this. Both of those Republicans, even though they got fewer votes in total than Trump, they got more raw votes than Trump on mail ins. Fewer substantially on election day. Hold that Thought, all right, well, you know, maybe people logically you would think, and I know I felt this personally on election day, you wait there for an hour, you feel very pressured. You feel like you might want to make room for the next person. You feel like you're there for an hour, maybe you're not gonna sit and read the ballot questions. You're less careful to fill them out. Okay, I got my Trump. If you're a Democrat, I got my Biden. Okay, got that there. But if you're filling out a ballot in the comfort of your home, you got all the time in the world. Maybe you could look up on the Internet. Who is this auditor person? I never heard of. And maybe that's why there's more down the ballot votes, more Republican voters higher on through mail ins filled out down the ballot than election day Republicans. You switch to the attorneys general race where the Democrat won. Dan Shapiro is not as well known as Trump and Biden, but he's very well known. I mean he's been all over the place in Pennsylvania, much more so than the auditor and treasurer. So. Well, wait a minute. I mean if the down the ballot dudes did better in Mellon's, you sure as heck expect Dan Shapiro, who overall won by the largest margin statewide of anyone presidential auditor, treasurer, you would expect him to really do much better relative to Biden melons. Nope. There. It's the opposite there. It turns out that he did better than Biden with election day votes. But when it comes to mail ins, Biden did better than even Dan Shapiro did. You put. And I know that took a little bit of time to put together, but this is kind of that circumstantial evidence, you put it all together that certainly once we know that they're not matching the signatures and we know that they had the curable ballots, but just in Allegheny and Philadelphia. And we know that they kicked after Republican inspectors, even after the court said, you have to do it, dude, where there's fire and there's smoke, there's even more fire.
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A
What could explain this? Because you have this unbelievable. I mean you're walking through this article. I want everyone to check it out. New analysis shows Biden winning by. It's magical, right? This is Houdini. This is. There is no way that this happens organically what you just walked us through here. And what could possibly explain this?
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B
Well, I mean, just off the bat, there's no way that you could have 27 time or 27 times greater acceptance rate with 10 times greater number of mail in ballots when All Nate Silver was warning about this. New York Times did a whole article in the lead up to the election. They were quoting studies that there's three times the rejection rate among first timers who aren't used to filling out absentee ballots. There's just, I mean, you put it all together, we know there's no way. And the only answer is, and unless someone has a better answer is that you had a bunch of ballots. And I'm not saying all 2.6 million mail ins were fraudulent. A lot of Democrats legitimately voted through mail. But again, we're not talking about 2.6 million fraud. We're talking about 100, 200,000 ballots that were harvested and handed in by third party officials and organizations that had Biden only ballots and not Trump ballots. And that's how you have a scenario where Biden does so much better than Trump even relative to all the down the ballot candidates. Inversely so between the Democrat Attorney General and Republican auditor and treasurer.
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A
I think there's multiple parts that. There's the voter registration part of it, which was actually registering faulty voters. 90 plus year olds saw a massive spike in voter registration in Pennsylvania. A 1,774% increase in voter registration in Pennsylvania. Then there's the ballot laundering practices where it's just the interception, filling out and cleaning of the ballots. So you put them in these massive drop boxes that were funded by the center for Technology and Civic Life. Then I think there were shenanigans in the vote counting process, actually the tabulation vote seers that weren't allowed access, all of this. Daniel, you're one of the most rational, one of the most reasoned based writers and thinkers out there. Everything you do is rooted in reason. Which is why I like reading. You're right, there's not a lot of conjecture. Is it fair to say this election was stolen?
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B
I would say yes. And the reason is this. It's not like we're coming out of nowhere. This was done in broad daylight. Meaning the foundation for this. And let's leave the whole dominion part out of it. Let's just even. I'm not even getting to that. The foundation of this, there's election law fraud and this ballot fraud, the election law fraud we saw up front. I mean, you just had executives in these states aided and abetted by lower courts. And by the way, this is important because a lot of people are like, oh, how dare you get the Supreme Court involved in a federal question. Well, the reason why you don't have matching signatures in Pennsylvania is Because the League of Women Voters went to the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, which is a federal court, and that got the Secretary of State to create this settlement where they didn't do it. Well, I mean, the Supreme Court's got to clean up the mess of their lower court. They created an environment for them to do this out in the open. So it's not like we're conjecturing and speculating. Well, maybe they had this crazy fraud. Mail ins have been known to be fraudulent since McClellan's time in 1864. I mean, heck, the Washington Post wrote a article on that in the summer, you know, when, when this wasn't viewed as what would determine the election. And now that you have an entire electorate put on an unverifiable mail in system, it's obvious it was. And I'll tell you this, you know, whenever it's Trump at stake, so it automatically becomes super political and no one's going to think about it rationally. Anyone who supports Trump is going to say it's stolen. Anyone who doesn't say it says it's not. But you take a look at systemically the mail in ballots, even where the presidential election wasn't in contention. Look at New York, they're still counting it. They still don't have races determined. You have judges there, county Judges In District 22, that's Claudia Tenney's district saying we have a major problem here. This is not even Republican judges. This is not in the states that matters, is in New York, where the melons broke the system. I mean, that was done openly. We openly know there's been fraud like this in the inner cities for years. So you marry the two, you marry the desire which we know is there, the organizations which we know are out there with the open opportunity that state supreme courts, lower federal courts and various secretaries of states and governors accorded them. It flows like butter. And I think, Charlie, the only question is how deep does it run. But if you look at the margins and you look at what they are alleging that Biden achieved through those very mail inside, it is pretty safe to say that he likely won Georgia, Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania by at least those margins that he supposedly lost them by.
- [17:45]
A
And so what's stunning is that typically in elections, things work in patterns, they work in waves. You're able to see certain trends emerge. One of the things that fascinate me the most about politics is how someone that lives in Parkersburg, West Virginia will think very similar to someone that lives 2,000 miles away in northern Minnesota. They have similar Demographics, they have similar ways of viewing information. They have similar patterns to life and similar values. What makes no sense whatsoever is how regionally it seems that President Trump was able to win historically and decisively. The best example of this is Florida. Florida that had almost all their votes in by 9:30 Eastern. They have a phenomenal governor, Governor Ron DeSantis, who's a total hero and a friend of mine. He deserves recognition. And at the last count, it looks like that Donald Trump will win Florida by 3.8 points, which is a blowout by Florida standards. I mean, that is a. That's like winning California by 25 points. Just to give you an idea. That is an unbelievable blowout in Florida.
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B
Greater than Obama in 2008.
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A
That's correct. Think about that. That Trump won Florida more decisively than Obama did in 2008 against a weak candidate, McCain and a referendum on the Republicans. War weariness, all that sort of stuff. How is it possible that Georgia was lost? I cannot process it. You win North Carolina by 100,000 votes, you win Florida decisively. Alabama, you win by 30 points, whatever it was. Tennessee, you win. Regionally, there was this wave. Except in Georgia, the same thing in Pennsylvania. President Trump did unbelievably well in Ohio. Really well, eight and a half points, I think at the last tabulation. It's super well in Iowa, seven points. Yet for whatever reason, it was Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. So let me play devil's advocate if I can really quick. They say it's because Joe Biden focused on those states. It's because he ran ads there and he didn't care about those other states. How is that incorrect?
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B
Well, he did focus on them, all right, but he didn't have a ground game much, but he had an underground game. And that's what we see. Look, we might have thought Ohio was safe. Republican. That was not from the polling data. That was the polling data. Had it about even there. They absolutely did run there. He visited there. He visited Iowa till pretty late. The common thread of Florida, Iowa and Ohio is that Republicans fully shut down the ballot harvesting. So I mean, Ron wasn't having any of that garbage in Florida, but in Ohio, even where you have a very weak Republican, but the Attorney general had a very hard fought victory in the Supreme Court. It took about four years to clean the rolls. If you remember the Supreme Court, it was one of the most landmark rulings we've had recently on election law. They've had that there in Iowa, they didn't have any of the problems. So you look at the Rust Belt. And it's very asymmetrical. And let me flesh this out. So going into election night, a lot of us were saying, look, we already knew he was going to win Iowa and Ohio. We knew the polls were wrong. But like, if he only wins those states by two, three, you're going to have a problem. But he wound up winning Ohio. Like, let me just say this, he won Mahoning County. That's Youngstown. That is the FDR coalition. He did very well in it last time, came close. He flipped. Would shock the consciousness of anyone five years ago to say, you're going to have a Republican win Youngstown. Barack Obama won it by about 35 points. Mahoning, Youngstown is eerie. That little dividing line there in Pennsylvania, western pa, it's irrelevant except for college football is the only difference where eastern Ohio views themselves is different. But to me, it doesn't make sense that he just about didn't make it in Youngstown last time. This time he flipped it. But then you went backwards. And Erie, the Erie, Youngstown thing makes no sense to me. Broadly speaking, you look at the upper Midwest and the Rust Belt, it makes no sense. And then obviously in Cleveland, the black turnout is down. Trump shaves off a few points from that, too. And then suddenly exactly where they need it in Atlanta, in Wisconsin, Milwaukee and Detroit. And look, you know, you want to tell me it was a little bit more leaning red in Ohio. Fine. But the polls had it dead even. It wasn't like saying it's Idaho or something. And if anything, the polls, you know, the WSB poll had Trump up for in Georgia. So in other words, the RCP average did not have Trump doing better in Ohio than Georgia. That's the reality. They were about the same deal. But then let me add another thing in there too. You look at Minnesota and I'll never forget, I thought Trump would flip it. And the reason is this. Minnesota. Trump lost it by just 1.4 percentage last time. There's been a realignment there. It's very much non college educated whites. I never had him winning New Hampshire. Very college educated, even though that was the closest margin. Last time I felt he would lose, it was. We know he was bleeding in the suburbs, but that was already baked into the cake. You said Florida. Florida is a great example. What we did is we did analysis and looked at Miami, Dade County. There was a revolution there. Trump did worse than typical Republicans among the Cubans four years ago. And then now he did better than ever. But so you might say, oh, that's different. Miami Dade had that whole flip. But even if you take it out, Trump still would have won Florida. Meaning if you would have given Biden's, if you would give Biden Hillary's margin in Miami Dade, Trump still would have won by more than he won last time. So that tells you, yes, we know the bleeding in Tampa suburbs, Hillsboro, Pinella, Duval and Jacksonville, that was accounted for. We understood that. But he still won. So that equivalent in the Milwaukee suburbs, in the Detroit suburbs, in the Pennsylvania suburbs, that was baked into the cake already. But the notion that somehow you would slide backwards. So again he won by 1.4. Okay. Lost it by 1.4 in Minnesota. This time we are to believe he lost Minnesota by more than seven points. Back to pre realignment Romney. That's Romney's margin of loss there. While Republicans flipped two congressional seats and five state legislative seats there. But the difference is those weren't in the Twin Cities metro where Biden blew out Obama's margins. And that state wasn't, you would say, well, that was not a focal point state. That was a little bit more like the gravy on top. Trump didn't need to win it and they got it there too. So you see what I'm saying. They didn't focus in there and I could go on to New Mexico is a similar thing. I'm not saying that Trump won New Mexico, but that the notion that he lost it by 11. Trump's two big things are non college educated and Hispanics. He did much better. That's what New Mexico is all about. I'm not saying he won it, but he slid backwards while Republicans flipped the House seat and flipped some seats in the legislature there. It just, it doesn't add up.
- [25:08]
A
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- [28:33]
B
You know, I don't think you could do it in a court of law in that amount of time, because to put together a judicial case, you need. I mean, a criminal case like this would take a year to put together. I do think the court cases are important to fuel the political solution, which we could talk about just in the sense of telling us what the law is. And I think, I know Ken Paxton's lawsuit is asking to push off the safe harbor date, but I think fundamentally what it's about when they write it in there is declaratory judgment of just saying, look, tell us what the law is fundamentally, these ballots that were cast in those four states through mail ins, were they done through unlawful means? And the answer really should be yes. And I think it's important, at least a court saying that now, what are they going to do with it? You know me, I'm not into judicial supremacism. And I don't think they could just say, I think Trump won. No, nothing. But what that should do is fuel the Republicans who control the legislatures in all four states to not just have the backbenchers try to eke out one committee hearing per state, and it's already late in the game. They should have been doing this for weeks already. And leadership in all the respective states should have supported it. And really, as Mark Levin was pushing, they should have passed a concurrent resolution before the election, which would have given them more just moral authority rather than like, you don't like the election results, just said, look, I mean, we didn't authorize this. These are unilateral changes. These votes are null and void. And you appoint your. And see, it sounds dramatic to say I'm gonna appoint Trump electors, but I think if they would take what I gave over to you in 20 minutes and flesh this out day in and day out on televised hearings and have a united Republican Party, it would reach the point where it would make sense for the people to do what you did in 1876. And it's actually very similar back then as today. Republicans controlled the Senate, Democrats controlled the House. Each one believed as strongly in their position as the other one did. They had competing slates of electors. The House wouldn't sign off on Hayes. The Senate wouldn't sign off until did. And what you would do is, and I'm not trying to say I necessarily would favor this, but let me just give Your audience, some sense of how that would work out. They were like, all right, the Republican Hayes is going to be president. So they had a commission and they had to make a political compromise. It's in the 11th hour, right before the inauguration. They weren't going to hold another election, but they realized the election was screwed up and he had to make a compromise. And they agreed upon Hayes being the president, but they gave the Democrats the biggest thing they wanted, which was an end of Reconstruction. And I think the equivalent of that today would be, and I'm not saying I agree with only this. I'm just throwing out one thing. Okay, Biden could be president, but we get the equivalent of ending Reconstruction, which could be ending Covid fascism. It could be speaking to this very issue. End mail and ballot and ballot harvesting and having universal photo ID and proof of citizenship to register the list of five things we want. But the problem, Charlie, and you know, this is my passion, and every issue gets back to this in that we only have 10% of Republicans, 10 to 20% in a given state, elected Republicans that believe in their position or their presumed position as strongly as 100% of the Democrats believe in theirs. So the problem is we're never, unfortunately, going to get to that point because the Democrats don't have a reason to deal with us and negotiate and have a grand compromise because they get it for free. Because if this came to the Senate, how many would withhold certification? 5? 8? I mean, it's nowhere close to 51 or the 53 votes they currently have officially. And again, you can't reinvent the wheel in one shot. It would have had to have been done the last few weeks. The state legislature's banging away. People would be convinced by this. There's so much more where this comes from. And then I think it would have made sense. And then once you have their electors, then it becomes ultimately, it's really between the House and the Senate. That's the final step of the process. But I mean, Charlie, this is the same reason why Republicans control 31 state legislatures and 24 trifectas. And Covid fascism in West Virginia and Ohio looks like it does in California. I mean, there's not much of a difference. This is why criminals are being released in Houston like they are in New York. I mean, we have a broken Republican Party. And I think that's really what this whole saga unfortunately reveals.
- [33:24]
A
No, you're exactly right. And also, there's so many Republicans that are running to the hills not talking about this, which is why you deserve A lot of credit and so does the great one for actually highlighting this and diving into this. So Daniel, just playing this out. If we are not successful in being able to prove this, and you're right, time is a constraint. The only date that is in the Constitution from this point forward is January 20th. These meetings of electors can be moved. That's all a bunch of nonsense. But usually you have months to put together a lawsuit. You have a lot of time. Now January 6th might actually be the counting of the electors. That might be a legitimate date. But Daniel, if we do not get clarity on what happened here, I think that our leaders are underestimating what's gonna happen next. I was just with a group of very successful CEOs, self made business people that all love Trump and they're all conservative, about 90 of them, every single one of them believe it was stolen. Half of them think Trump is serving a second term, half they think that it's just happening. And so where we're headed is somewhere very dangerous where you're not gonna trust any elections, you're not gonna trust anything our leaders say. It'll be a shadow, it'll be a complete and total mirage government like, yeah, okay, whatever. You're not the legitimate ruler. And it's not even the way that the left did it where it's like, you're not my president, where it was just kind of this pent up anger that I wish we wouldn't have lost. It'll be actual resentment that you shouldn't even be there. Can you talk about the significance of this as far as just keeping our country together?
- [35:01]
B
See, what a lot of these Republicans don't realize is this reckoning was a coming for a long time. And it's ironically Trump that held it together. I mean, one of the reasons, if there's one thing I resented about Trump, it was actually because I wanted this moment to come earlier. And his presence kind of excited the base and rejuvenated the Republican Party, which I felt in the long run was just too irremediably broken. And it would just, you know, we'd be back in this position if, you know, when he rides off into the sunset, which of course he's not going to go away in that sense, but I mean, presumably Biden will wind up assuming the office. They don't realize, they think they could just go back to the Romney Republican Party, that that's not gonna, I mean people, once they got the stake, they're not going back to the veggies. And that's Just not. That's not gonna happen. So I think before the country, just in terms of the Republican Party, they don't seem to understand you can insult people into voting Republican. You could patronize them and threaten them, and you might even have good arguments. But, I mean, it's not gonna. It's not gonna work. They're not. They're not going to put that baby back together. And I think, look, you're right, this is a broader problem that. And I think this will especially happen if the Supreme Court does give a declaratory judgment that these ballots were kind of unlawful, but, you know, work it out in the political process, which is fine. But like I told you, because of the timing and really, because just Republicans suck. I mean, that's. That's really what it is. I want to make that very clear. You said January 6th matters. You're right, it does. This. That's the final step. That's the certification. People think it's the electors meeting in their state houses on December 14th. It's not true. I mean, this was what 1876 was all about. It was the Senate Republicans and the House Democrats would not sign off on it. That was the stalemate. They had to create a commission. They had two more months back then to March. That could be done. I mean, Senate Republicans could stop Biden. I mean, that could be done even without the state legislators creating a slate. They could just challenge the results and say, we're not certifying Biden. To be clear, that can happen. They won't do it. And I think so.
- [37:20]
A
The Senate. The Senate can stop the certification on January 6th.
- [37:25]
B
Well, let me be clear. I'm not talking about stopping the process. They could vote not to certify or decline to affirmatively certify it. I mean, that's the thing. The House will get it. Because that's not a state delegation vote. It's not. You know, when, like the 12th Amendment, when no one gets a majority, that's going to be a simple vote. Democrats have the votes. They'll vote it out of the House. The Senate will not. I mean, the Senate could say, we believe Trump won. We're not certifying it. That's what. 1876. That's what happened then.
- [37:55]
A
And so then you get to a constitutional stalemate, basically.
- [38:01]
B
A stalemate where you have to appoint a commission and negotiate. You have to. I mean, everyone calls it a corrupt bargain. And I'm certainly not blessing the tragic Jim Crow things that came out of the end of Reconstruction and everything, but from a political Standpoint, I mean, they did work it out that one got the presidency and one got the biggest issue they wanted. And I think more than even not wanting Biden as president, I think we want the situation fixed. And it would be nice if we could come together and say, okay, Biden will be president, but these five election anomalies are over with. So that at least in the future, we could strive to win and trust all elections. But again, we can't even strive to that because Republicans are fragging the effort. So Democrats are just sitting back and laughing. It's a bunch of wackos like Charlie and Daniel and not the real smart conservatives.
- [38:59]
A
I can tell you this, though. Here's what's going to happen. I thought it was just the House that had to certify. I don't know why I was under that bullet.
- [39:04]
B
No, it's both.
- [39:06]
A
And is it majoritarian or is it 2/3 vote that is needed?
- [39:08]
B
No majority, Straight majority. So Dems. Dems easily have it, but Republicans, officially. In other words, you need 51 votes in the Senate to certify Biden as the winner.
- [39:20]
A
No, I get that. And so if you count Romney and Murkowski and Collins and all the typical, you know, turncoats to me, but it's
- [39:29]
B
much more than that. I'm just telling you those for sure. But unfortunately it's more than half of them.
- [39:35]
A
No, I know, but that this is a great testing moment where we should start saying if all these other lawsuits and things fall apart by January, don't go the way we want them to by January 1st or 2nd, we should say any Republican that votes to certify this election in the Senate should be kicked out of the party. That should be the official position.
- [39:53]
B
Exactly. And everyone's focusing on Mo Brooks from Alabama. He's saying he's gonna protest in the House and God bless him for saying that. But let's keep our focus. They ultimately don't have the votes now. It would gum up the works. They would challenge each state delegation. It would take hours. But eventually, where you stop it is in the Senate where they do officially have a majority.
- [40:14]
A
Yeah. And so we do have a majority. And I think it'll only expose further kind of the weakness of the Republicans. And so what you're saying, though, is that Lindsey Graham could be holding hearings right now to inform other senators to now block the certification on January 6th, is that right?
- [40:32]
B
Absolutely. And I don't know why it hasn't been done for a month. And again, just like a lot of people have already Mentioned it was the duty of the state legislatures to get to the bottom of this. I would say people forget it's the duty of Congress because remember that ultimately the framers had to find a unified federal body to be that last step.
- [40:53]
A
Right.
- [40:53]
B
Because, Amy, you have a bunch of electors getting together in 50 different states. Well, what if there's a problem? What if there's a contested thing? It's a federal union. Now, they didn't want Congress picking the president. You know, that was one construction they had in the Constitutional Convention. Maybe like they vote and select the president. No, you vote in the states, but ultimately they are the ones that sign off on that. Remember, Mike Pence as the VP is the one who presides ironically in the House over that certification process. And he could say, look, we're taking the Republican slate. Now, Democrats would have to vote it down and they would have the votes. But if all the Republicans in the House would do it, that's something to look at. And then ultimately it has to go to the Senate. And I'll tell you this much, Charlie, if the shoe were on the other foot, oh, they would block us. The melons were our thing. Democrats would have made it clear on November 4, forget about the state legislatures. But in the Senate, had they had the Senate Republicans in the House, Trump is not the legitimate winner. He won it through the fraudulent mail ins. We will decline to certify him as the winner.
- [42:08]
A
And if they would have had, if they would have had the power in 2016 to do that, they would have
- [42:12]
B
done that in 2004. They tried with Ohio in the House. They didn't control the House back then, but they did have a, a point of order. And they did contest it. And there was a little bit of a debate. You have, I think, two hours of debate. If you get a senator to sign your protest. And they protested Ohio, I mean, they fight, they fight for their causes. And I think, like, I just want to say a word if you have a moment about the Georgia runoff. I just, there's a very, very sharp debate and certainly on social media, I guess, even within, let's say, MAGA type of conservatives and Trump's base over what to do with the Georgia runoffs. And I have a third position on it, you know, so some are like, well, you always have to vote Republican. All cause how dare you give it to the Democrats. Others are like, it's time to send them a message. And my point is it doesn't matter. You know, you vote for the Republicans, it won't matter. You send them the message, they won't get the message anyway. And the broader thing is, broadly, what are we all going to do together about having a movement and a party that actually fights for us? Let me say this. There's one very legitimate argument to always voting for crappy Republicans over the Democrat, no matter what. Except the problem is that argument doesn't apply to the people propagating it, and that is this. See, with a Democrat talk to the hand, they're never gonna listen to you. You can't pressure them, you can't influence them. I mean, that's it. At least with a Republican, you could get your foot in the door and have your entire constituency get on their case on every issue every day between election day. But the problem is these very conservative commentators that are very passionate about the need to vote Republican. But I don't, and I'm fine with that in a vacuum. If that's your position, I respect that and that there's what to be said about it. But if you're that close with Leffler and Purdue and these, and you know, it's not just them, it's really most of them, where are you every doggone day using that influence? You're right. You. We want them in so you can influence them, but I'm not seeing it. So, for example, just this week as we're debating this, they go, I mean, tech is slaughtering us. I think you're out ahead of the curve on that issue. Before I was you really warned about that? Like, dude, we're not gonna win. We can't win anything. I can't get a single Covid data mask piece published. Any. It's a no fly zone. It's a Chernobyl. You cannot get the truth out. And they voted to give a tech visa handout to these very companies. While we have an election problem, a Covid fascism problem, a crime insurrection, mob violence problem. And this is where their brains are. And I don't see the statements from Leffler and Perdue and any of these other guys. Like, indulge us at least while you're running for office. Like, they used to lie and then get in and do nothing. Like, the best they say is Democrats are socialists, they want to abolish the police. I'm for the American dream. But they're not speaking to the damn issues. Like, that's what bothers me. Like, like at least make pretend like you're going to do something, but, like, we don't even force that upon them. So you can see what I'm saying this argument of ultimately, if you have a ballot in front of you, okay, you know, Dem or Republican, what I do, I think that's a straw man. If none of us do anything else aside from that stupid election which takes three seconds to fill out, what are we doing every day for two years between the elections? Either, you know, pressuring them stronger to get better on the issues or fundamentally reforming the party. The way we view issues, our entire approach to politics.
- [46:02]
A
When running a business, HR issues can kill you. I can tell you from Turning Point USA that wrongful termination suits, minimum wage requirements, labor regulations, they can really add up. HR manager salaries are never cheap. They're an average of $70,000 a year. Look, you've heard me talk about Bambi before. They're terrific. It's Bambi spelled B A M, B E E. They were created specifically for you, the small businessman. You can get a dedicated HR manager, craft HR policy and maintain your compliance, all for just $99 a month. With Bambi you can change HR from your biggest liability to your biggest strength. Your dedicated HR manager is available by phone, email or real time chat. From onboarding to terminations. They customize your policies to fit your business and they help you manage your employees day to day. All for just $99 a month. Month to month. There are no hidden fees. Cancel anytime you didn't start your business because you wanted to spend time on HR compliance. Let Bambi help. Get your free HR audit today. Go to bambi.comkirk right now to schedule your free HR audit. That's bambi.comkirk Spell Bam to the B E-E-COM Kirk the reason that none of that happens is because the people that control the apparatus are corporate types. They're chamber of commerce types. They that quite honestly, they look at politics as a factor into their business model. It's not about the country, it's not about patriots, it's not about culture. Not about the social issues you and I care about. Not about stopping crime, not about stopping the mobs for them. They look at senators as owned and operated enterprises of their corporate crusade. And you and I are free enterprise guys. We like private property, but we also don't like corporate tyranny. When all of a sudden our public policy is created by for corporations at the expense of middle class workers. You look at these lockdowns. These lockdowns have been the greatest handout to corporate America in history, absent the hotel, airline and cruise industry. But they'll get all their money by the way. They'll get stimulus money anyway. So they're gonna be made new and all their smaller competitors will get wiped out. So long term, the hotel, restaurant and cruise industry will be stronger in five years on the corporate level, like the ruling class level, so even they're exempt from this. But the data companies, the package delivery companies, that's what I call Amazon, they're just a package delivery company. They don't make anything, they just process. They're a fulfillment company. They figure out how to do packages. And now Jeff Bezos is wealthier than Caligula ever was when he ran the Roman Empire and probably just as morally compromised. And yet what the Republicans are, you hit it perfectly. The people that run the Republican Party, they actually don't care. They don't, they do not care about the stuff we care about. God bless Mitch McConnell for judges. I want Loeffler and Perdue to stop the Democrat mob. I want all of that. But there is going to be an uprising. And these people don't realize this because normal people and conservatives and people of faith like both of us are going to all of a sudden say, wait a second, we have put so much work into you. And yes, the guy that sometimes say stuff you don't like and tweets stuff you don't, that makes you wince, but he got more done in four years when he came onto the scene than you guys have done in 40 years. And this is a great testing moment. I'm gonna all of a sudden basically beat the drum. Every republic, this will be the defining test will be what? Republicans in the United States Senate vote to certify this election on January 6th. That is now the new test roll call. Come on, Lindsey Graham, you want a conservative to come donate for you? Are you gonna go certify this election? Mitch McConnell, you're in a tough race. Joni Ernst, Steve Daines, friends of mine, are you gonna vote to certify this election? The answer should be no. To your point, we probably won't get it. By the way, Mitch McConnell can refuse to bring the motion to the floor. Mitch McConnell could say, I'm not gonna vote on it. Not gonna happen.
- [49:36]
B
Yeah, remember, they don't have the power to get Trump in that already, cuz they don't have the House. But like you said, you put it very well. It's not a matter of an affirmative vote. It's just you downright have to get Biden certified. And they could just like, yeah, we protest. I mean, which is why in 1876, they never even had a vote. Because they knew each side would oppose each other. Republicans controlled the Senate. It's exactly like it was now. But again, back then, the Republicans believed in their constituents and their views the way the Democrats did. And that's how you had a stalemate. We can't even get. See, ironically, everyone's like, there's so much bitter partisanship. It's like a civil war in the country. Actually, we have more acrimony. Listen to this. We have more acrimony in the country because we've never had that crossing of the swords. We never forced the issue. Because see, sometimes when you really confront each other, you have to start making a compromise. And which in my view needs to be some sort of national divorce. And I don't necessarily mean like literally a two state solution, but in a way where we could live agreeably in various states. Democrats already have this in their states. They do whatever the heck they want. They have illegal aliens come in and do it, whatever they want. So we should be able to have sanctuaries for Americans and Americans values and liberties under Corona fascism. But we don't, because Republicans don't. They don't force Democrats to a point where they feel they need to make those concessions. Why should they? They're out there championing their cause. They're agreeing with them. Like I recently heard a speech, and I think it's very important and it's very important for your activists. You have a lot of good ones. If Biden becomes president, you know, theoretically, there should be a lot of good things that we can do. Now, foreign policy is tough. I mean, yeah, he's gonna do his Iran thing and kiss up to Iran and Castro. There's not much you can do about that. But in domestic policy, which is really most of what's destroying our life now, Republicans are gonna control 31 state legislatures and 24 states with the trifecta. A lot of those states, they have super majorities and some, like the Great Plains, the Democrats are wiped off the map. And there's two Democrats left in the, in the South Dakota legislature. And my point is this. You look at West Virginia, Republicans have greater majorities in the legislature than Democrats have in California. Yet I listened to the Republican governor there, Jim justice, he gave a speech about if only if masks only save one life. He literally sounded like Cuomo. And this is west freaking Virginia where Trump carried every county both times. And you know, I live in Maryland. It's a cesspool. And I'm looking for a place where I could live. And I'd say Look, the Pennsylvania Panhandle is. Is. Well, that may be the name, but Pennsylvania Panhandle is an hour and a half away from me. But they have the same Covid fascism as Maryland does. So I don't want to hear this. Well, Daniel, this is the difference between 52 and 48 seats. And the Georgia run ups. I'll do better for you. I'll show you places where they have 70, 80% majorities, and in both houses, the governor, the attorney general, the lieutenant governor. And it's like, what's your excuse there? You're joining in with that. I mean, you're promulgating the same stuff the left is. And this is the big lie about the. Oh, it's the filibuster. Oh, we need the House. Oh, we need this. They have it in a bunch of states. If we had Republicans that were worth more than a bucket of spit, you could have easily a third of the country that could be as maga as California is loony.
- [53:11]
A
And that is those are people like Kristi Noem and Ron DeSantis. And what ends up happening is they actually get more popular, is that they actually persuade more people. And that is how Republican states actually become more Republican. When you have people like Governor Burgum or Kim Reynolds or Mike DeWine or all of a sudden they do mask mandates and they shut down their states, you become less popular. Ron DeSantis will win reelection in 2022 by maybe 8 to 10 points in a state that used to be a competitive state. Why? Because when you go drive through Winter park or you go drive through Sarasota, all of a sudden even the suburban moms are like, my kids are in school, my businesses are open. I know what this virus can do. If I'm scared, I'm going to stay at home. I'm not going to see the, you know, older people in my life. But he has got us back to life quicker than anyone else. And that's Ron DeSantis who's just maligned by the media every single day. And what I'm hopeful for, though, Daniel, and I want your comments on this, is that I think that those of us that believe in the conservative movement, those of us that were part of the Tea party movement in 2010, where all of a sudden our ideas were given this huge platform, and then all of a sudden we saw what Boehner and all these people are really all about. I actually think we're in charge. I actually think that the establishment is weaker than they ever have been.
- [54:27]
B
I hope you're Right. And I hope people see the jarring contrast. Why do we keep mentioning Ron DeSantis? Because the problem is we can't find other names. I mean, there's 27 Republican governors and there's only two of them that are decent on the issue of our time, which literally affects our life more than anything it has. That's correct. You know, you only have Ron DeSantis, who's the one that's pushing an anti BLM, antifa mob violence bill that's dealing with that. I mean, you look at him and the gulf between him and a Doug Doocy, Brian Kemp, and I'm not even getting to DeWine. I mean, like, that's like a whole nother level is greater than the gulf between them and the Democrats. And we can't continue this game of this schizophrenic party. It's like going to battle with a gun where the bullet comes out the other side every time you fire it. You can have the overwhelming majority of your elected Republicans echoing, parroting and implementing everything the left says, even on the most radical issues of our time. You can't go on like that. So I think our lesson, you brought up the Tea Party and I think here's my concern, and this is we're at a crossroads. And again, I don't wanna presuppose Biden as president, but I think if we're just talking in terms of planning forward, it wouldn't be that way if we were in charge. But unfortunately the Republicans are the way they are. But there are actually a lot of opportunities. And the thing is, Obama won a much bigger mandate than Biden. He legitimately won. A lot of people legitimately voted for him. They liked him, they liked his Persona. They thought he was, you know, going to be some fresh change. Nobody voted for Biden. Obviously, a lot of the extra votes are fraudulent. A lot of the real votes were really. They just didn't like Trump's Persona. They certainly don't like the radical, you know, anarchist ideas of the left. And Democrats have no self awareness and they can't control themselves. Even Obama fell out of favor within a couple months in that spring of 2009, very quickly. And Republicans won a historic election based on that. We're gonna have that opportunity. I mean, they'll be out of favor with the electorate within six weeks. When you no longer have Trump as the false flag for these suburban voters. Oh, I hate Trump. Okay, well, fine. Now you have the policies to deal with. Freeze frame. What do we do then? That's the Challenge. Because the problem we had last time is that all of the energy we created got jujitsued into this black hole of the gop. It went into electing. Every Republican is anti Biden. There's no principled Republican like a Republican hopelessly out of power. They all sound like us. They're all going to say the same things. Oh, look at what Biden's doing. Look what the Democrats doing. Look what they wanna do. Nevermind all of the opportunities they had to deal with it mechanically but rhetorically during the campaign. They'll countenance our ideas and our rhetoric. And ironically, Charlie, here's the deal. It's the dudes that get the money from the chamber, types that have the money to buy the name recognition to put out our stuff so they can then get in and do the opposite and we elect the same Republican clowns, rinse and repeat the same cycle every decade. This is our challenge. How do we finally change the vicious cycle and force a point where either you fundamentally reform the Republican Party or you start a new party? Which I will just tell you, Charlie, if all of our colleagues would be on board with that, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. You take the energy that's out there with Trump being shafted by Republicans. Now typically people were reluctant to go down this route because they're like, well, I don't want three parties and you split the vote and Democrats win. I will tell you, if the people that complain about that would join in this, well, you'd have two parties. Because Bill Crystals don't exist in the real world. I mean, you don't. There's no constituency for that. I mean, you have donors for that, but in large numbers you don't have a constituency for. We empower the Republican Party's existence. So I'm just saying we need a do or die moment where either we come up with a way to finally take over the party, which in all honesty, I've worked that for 10 years and I don't really, and I don't say this in jest, I mean, the reason why I'm pushing a new party is because I've tried with the primaries. They have more money, they lie, they say our candidates are the liberals and there's other conservatives. They have more name idea and money and they wind up winning. Rinse and repeat. They play the game, they control the party. Maybe if you go to state conventions instead of popular primaries is something to look at. My point is I'm open to all ideas. We all need to. I think people like you and I need to get together in a Constitutional Convention style meeting where we pray together and we recognize what we are doing, and that includes myself. I'm speaking to myself. Is not working. We have more tyranny than ever. We have more anarchy than ever. We have more debt than ever. We have more dependency than ever. I mean, on very few measures outside of foreign policy are we in a good position. Domestically, we have more criminal aliens not deported than ever. We're not making progress. And I'm not saying this is Trump's fault. I'm saying, Charlie, you could elect Ron DeSantis as president, but in the current framework of the Republican Party, he might be a little bit more intellectually coherent than Trump. But you're not going to. They're not. You're not going to change the issue. You're not going to be more successfully across the board than Trump was because you're gonna have the same problems that basically, the higher you get, the crap rises to the top. So you start off in the counties and maybe 30, 40% of county Republicans are good. You go to the state House, maybe about 30% of State House Republicans are good, but none of them are in leadership. Very few are in leadership. You go to the state Senate, it's more like one fifth of the Republicans are good. You go to the House, US House. I don't know, what do you think? There's about 200 Republicans, 10, 15%. You know, you're Mo Brooks of the world, you're Andy Biggs, you're whatever. I mean, there aren't many of them. You go to the Senate. Help me out here, Charlie. Senate and governor, two out of 27 governors, out of 53 Republican senators. I mean, I'm just saying this is the problem. It's not a matter of when I was younger, I'm a little older than you, Charlie, so. So I was doing this a little bit like in the Lincoln Chaffee, Jim Jeffords days, the Arlen Specter the previous decade. Right. So when I started out, I thought it was like, fundamentally, okay, you got 45 good Republicans, 47, just like, like five or so rhinos. Let's work on some primaries. I think we all know the rot is a lot deeper than that.
- [61:52]
A
I think that, I think that the idea of party fracturing is inevitable. The only thing that I disagree with, though is I think the Democrats should and will do it first. I think that they actually have a fault line that they've been completely ignoring philosophically. I actually think we can learn something from Trump that he should have capitalized on more, which is the number one issue that is underneath all of this, Daniel. And it's an issue that conservatives quite honestly ignored, and that is the money and politics issue. Normal people can understand this, that massive corporations purchase politicians for their political gain to access to, you know, advantageous public policy to be able to get laws, tax codes written in their favor. It's not anything market based. It is favoritism based. And the one reason why Trump was so attractive, despite everything they threw at him, is that he had this appearance and it was true that he could not be bought. It's the number one thing that you would hear from grassroots conservatives and people that are first time Trump voters is that he can't be bought. Now, Bernie Sanders had a similar type of appeal, awful public policy ideas, but one of the reasons that Bernie Sanders had a crossover with Trump is this idea that they could not be bought. One of the worst things that we did as conservatives is we embraced this deluge of corporate money post Citizens United. Yeah, it's one of the worst things that we did. We started doing deals with the devil all of a sudden, getting hundreds of millions of dollars from crony corporate interests that wanted to pander to China, keep the borders open, and then bow down to big tech. And then now we're living through the set of circumstances where our entire party has a laundry list of favors that they owe to some lobbyist or corporate master that does not have America's best interests at heart. And I actually think what's really promising and the direction the party is heading is a citizen based party that has, that is grassroots funded, that denies corporate money. And let me give you a little bit of hope though, Matt Gaetz comes out and says, I'm not taking PAC money. First Republican to do so. No one has followed suit. And interestingly enough, only, only he and aoc, Rashida Tlaib, Ayanna Pressley and Ilan Omar are saying that now the left, they have a built in advantage because the left they think of, they think of. They're like the Borg from Star Trek. They think as a body, everyone puts in $5. That is my, that is their tithe, right? So, you know, you'll tithe to a synagogue, I tithe to a church. Like we just think that's what we do to them. They tie to the Democrat party, right? That is their church, that is their religion. So it's just easier for them to be able to raise small dollar donors. But I'm excited because we are starting to see a younger, more based, positive Republican. That's different than the Tea Party wave though. It's the Josh Hawley types. It is, you know, it is Matt Gaetz, it is Madison Cawthorn from North Carolina. But nothing will change. Daniel, to your point, until we fix the money and politics issue, nothing. And it's different than they want taxpayer funded elections, they want all this crap. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying though is that it's not healthy when Goldman Sachs can come in and bring in $5 million to your race. That's not good for the country. It's not. It's purchasing of politicians. I'm not saying you make it illegal. I'm just pinpointing the problem. And in closing, what are your thoughts on that as a basis?
- [65:02]
B
So I would say that is really where the money is. That's the fulcrum of this because I think, and I'm trying to remember it was this guy, David Shore, who was a really young whiz kid strategist for Obama. He recently did a amazing interview, very insightful from a leftist perspective of where he sees the country. And he was very, he's a socialist and he was very concerned that the Democrats are embracing the cultural Marxism, you know, like the open the borders and the, and the criminal stuff and the transgender stuff. And he thinks that the fiscal socialism sells in his mind and he thinks they're ruining it. And it was great seeing it from him because we always said he was like the Democrat base is actually more center. The actual Democrat voters are more to the center of where their party apparatus is, whereas with Republicans it's the opposite. And a lot of that's because of the donors. I mean it's really the donors. Where do you get there's no money in the Constitution and in sovereignty and in traditional values, there's no money there. That's part of the problem. And I think just to put a finer point on what you're saying with money in politics, it's also the focus and the money is driving that focus and that's this whole tax cut business. Now you and I, we understand the economics, we understand it's stupid to raise taxes, we get it. But I once wrote a whole thesis called low tax socialism. And what Republicans have enabled in the last couple decades is something very interesting. They've allowed the corporations to get off on the cheap, meaning Democrats have not 100 things they wanna do. Republicans bail them out from the two things that the corporations don't like about the Democrats and then they could turn around and enforce cultural Marxism against us on the cheap without having to worry about empowering the Democrats. Cuz they'll destroy them. And what Republicans did, which was a big mistake. Conservatism, free markets. And I think you've alluded to this, it's a full package, stop the split the baby conservatism. It has to come together. You can have low tax socialism, so you know in Europe you have high tax socialism. And I actually think it's better. The people are brainwashed, but that's where they are. But they have skin in the game. So you have that 45% tax bracket that comes in very low at like 90,000 income in France. And you don't have all these deductions to lower your effective tax rate. So you got to feel the pain, the people feel the pain. If that's what you want here. We found a great way with the Federal Reserve to basically once we start with the deficit spending, you could just buy off everyone on the cheap. Taxes are relatively low for most people at a corporate and individual level. So everyone's happy. They shoot at the regulations that the big corporations don't like which often their problem. But then they leave out others that are more effective small business or they support policies like Covid fascism which is the ultimate regulatory market distortion against small businesses. And then that's when they could turn around and say aha, now we got you, we got our tax cuts, we got our thing so we don't have to fear the Democrats now we could turn around and promote mass release of criminals, promote open borders, promote all the visa stuff, promote all the wokeness. And I think we also have to be more strategic when we deal with the money and with be more strategic with our issues. And you can have Republicans 100% righteous on taxes, but then horrible on every other fiscal and certainly social issue because then you actually enable that. That's what we need to work on in the current years. I have no problem going to the corporations and saying hey, we're going to stand back and allow Democrats to raise back the corporate rate to maybe 30%. I don't think it's a good idea. But I'm just saying we have to do battle with them and we're under a greater existential threat than just tax rates. What they're able to do with COVID fascism is greater than any tax or anything. And you know, that's the way to do it. And also frankly not just the corporations but the people as well. You know, a lot of these suburban households, let's face it, you know, taxes, Unless you're earning a tremendous amount of money, I'm not trying to put people down. I know you. You had the property taxes, sale taxes. People pay a lot in taxes. But it's nothing like other countries. We have Europe, socialism in America. We've had it for a while, except we have it with deficit spending because we control the dollar, which is why we have a worse COVID policy than Europe does. Most countries in Europe are not as tyrannical as America. And the reason is because they can't afford that. We just dump trillions of dollars at people. But you know what? I want people to pay for it. You want lockdown. I want you to have the Anne Frank style lockdown. You, I want you to do it, but you can't do it. So what we did is we dumped trillions of dollars. Here's your checks, here's your ppp. That's crap. You know, this is how you get a more left wing to, you know, sometimes we could be so principled in a vacuum that you get a worse left wing outcome than you'll ever get. So we can't be imbalanced in our approach. You have to look at everything like, you know, I'm sympathetic to, hey, let's attract talent from the world. But you got to be careful. You can't allow China and India through Bill Gates starting in the 80s to monopolize it and culturally gerrymander our people out of jobs and, and then spawn trade theft and espionage based on that. Like we're seeing with the host, you know, Christine Fang. Business, you know, starting with the student visas, the 400,000 a year. This is the mistake our people have made. They're eating us alive. As Karl Marx said, we're going to make the capitalists pay for the rope to hang themselves. We got to move away from that.
- [71:18]
A
Lennon said the best way to destroy the middle class is through taxation and inflation. What we have is hyper corporate tyranny that actually does quite well with inflation. They own land, they have products that people are gonna continue to buy. Jeff Bezos will only get wealthier with more dollars being infused into the market. Inflation is actually. It's a tax on working people and to the gift to the rich. And this is exactly where the socialists are gonna get their power is they're going to. They're gonna demagogue a situation that cronyism has created. And our corporate Republicans don't understand this. And Daniel, I appreciate the kind words where you said about the tech issue, I felt like I was getting in everyone's ear for years. When you and I did Life Liberty Levin, we did a whole segment on tech tyranny and Mark pushed back a little bit. We had a good conversation about it. Cuz it really wasn't like in vogue. This was back in 2018 and now we're all living through this pseudo dystopian nightmare. In closing, what is your thought on the tech issue? They own almost all of our politicians except Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz and a few others. In closing, what's your take on that?
- [72:16]
B
Nothing matters until we deal with that. I mean, you and I can't get our stuff out. I mean they'll. They control the airwaves, they control the podcasting, they control the written content is. They control every delivery system. I can't find my own articles on Google because I've written so many and I can't often like, I try to like type in words that I know are in there and I can't find it. You can't get our information out. I mean that's the problem. We're always like, we're conservatives, we'll make smarter arguments. Well, where's your delivery system? You could build a nuclear bomb but you don't have a delivery system. This is the problem we have with that. This is why I think the NDAA is exactly the place to fight this. And of course very few Republicans want to fight section230. I think we need to start fighting on a state level frankly too. And I think maybe this is something to work with the Desantis of the world and to start to go after big tech with, with the clamping down of freedom of speech. Because I think the mistake that I made early on is I saw the first generation of censorship and it was like, all right, it's kind of subtle, you know what I mean? It's kind of now it's like it is a straight up no fly zone. Like you know, if you say hey, like, you know, you had a mask mandate for six months and cases are going up. So like what's the deal? That them fighting words there, that's like, like putting up an al Qaeda decapitation video, which of course you could put up, like, you know that that's what it is. You can't get around that like that. That's what we're seeing. I would put up videos and Trump would retweet them and it would get 300 views on YouTube and it just didn't make any sense. I mean, so it took. I had to see it myself. And I just. I don't see how we even. Anything you and I want to do requires communication. Whether it's a new party, whether it's a reformed party, whether it's an issue focus, whether it's a grassroots campaign. Well, maybe we'll get together and have a bunch of Facebook pages to fight the lockdowns and organize.
- [74:19]
A
Oh, wait, we can't.
- [74:20]
B
You can't. You can't do that. It's checkmate. I mean, they got us. They got us because, again, those organizations got what they wanted from us. We gave it to them for free because we were so into the free market then. Now we don't have any free market left.
- [74:40]
A
Daniel, you're a good American. Your podcast, I'm supposed to plug it. What's it called?
- [74:45]
B
See our podcast on Blaze tv. You could find the itunes stitcher anywhere. You see podcast. See our podcast with Daniel Horowitz. That's conservative review. We review what's important to conservatives every day.
- [74:56]
A
Now do me a favor. Come back very soon. You're very smart, and I usually cut off podcasts before this, so you're a smart guy.
- [75:04]
B
Really appreciate it. Really appreciate it. Looking forward to coming back.
- [75:07]
A
God bless you. Speak to you soon. Thanks.
- [75:09]
B
Take care.
- [75:12]
A
Thanks so much for listening, everybody. If you want to get involved with Turning Point USA, you go to tpusa.com where we play offense with a sense of urgency to win America's culture war. Email us your questions. As always, freedomarliekirk.com thank you guys so much for listening. God bless. Speak to you soon.