Bill Maher Aftermath and the Left's MAGA Response

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bill Maher Aftermath and the Left's MAGA Response

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Charlie Kirk Show
• Host: Charlie Kirk
• Episode: Bill Maher Aftermath and the Left's MAGA Response
• Release Date: April 22, 2025

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1. Introduction and Guest Introductions

In this episode of The Charlie Kirk Show, host Charlie Kirk welcomes two esteemed guests, Frank Turek and Alex Marlowe, to delve into the aftermath of his recent appearance on Bill Maher's show. Kirk sets the stage by highlighting the significance of engaging in meaningful dialogues across ideological divides.

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2. Reflecting on Charlie’s Appearance on Bill Maher’s Show

Charlie Kirk initiates the conversation by discussing his recent interview with Bill Maher, emphasizing the respectful and hopeful tone of the interaction.

• Charlie Kirk [00:00]: “I think you're really gonna enjoy it. It'll be the annotated version.”
• Alex Marlowe [02:25]: “Good for you for going on, Charlie. You're cornering the market for actually talking to the other side, which is nice.”

The guests commend Maher’s approach to fostering dialogue, with Alex praising Maher’s ability to engage with individuals across the political spectrum:

• Alex Marlowe [02:55]: “He literally is the only person who's talking to all people of every political angle.”

Frank Turek adds that Maher’s format allows for deeper conversations beyond soundbites, facilitating genuine understanding.

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3. Analysis of the Abrego Garcia Case and Democratic Lawfare

The discussion shifts to the case of Abrego Garcia, a Maryland resident entangled in legal controversies that spark debates on immigration and law enforcement.

• Alex Marlowe [06:41]: “This is the game they're playing. They're trying to trip up Donald Trump and Stephen Miller... to create a narrative that will allow for them to win in the midterms and then start the impeachments.”

Marlowe argues that Democrats are utilizing legal tactics, referred to as "lawfare," aimed at undermining the Trump administration’s policies. He warns of a strategic long-term effort to delegitimize Trump’s presidency through legal challenges:

• Alex Marlowe [08:00]: “They are trying to get Trump administration to violate some sort of directive from a court that could lead towards political momentum, towards impeachment.”

Kirk concurs, advocating for prudence and vigilance in response to these maneuvers:

• Charlie Kirk [08:27]: “Understand the bigger picture, please.”

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4. The State of the Judicial Branch and Its Implications

Kirk raises concerns about the increasing influence of the judiciary in political matters, suggesting that the left may be overstepping its bounds to impede the Trump administration.

• Charlie Kirk [08:27]: “There is a school of thought that says... the issue will largely be put to rest.”

Marlowe responds by emphasizing the unsustainable nature of the judiciary’s involvement, hinting at a prolonged struggle ahead:

• Alex Marlowe [09:28]: “We can't have 675 presidents of the United States who are doubling as district court judges who have a veto over everything Donald Trump does.”

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5. Democratic Party’s Strategy on Unseating Incumbents

The conversation turns to the Democratic Party’s tactics in primary challenges, specifically referencing figures like David Hogg.

• Charlie Kirk [12:37]: “Is the Democrat Party trying to get more based...”

• Alex Marlowe [12:37]: “David Hogg... is pursuing this effort to unseat some Democrats in safe seats through primary challenges.”

Marlowe critiques the Democratic strategy, suggesting it targets incumbents to strengthen the party's position, albeit questioning the authenticity of grassroots support.

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6. Comparing Grassroots Mobilization: Campus Tours vs. AOC/Bernie Events

Kirk contrasts the turnout of Turning Point USA’s campus tours with high-profile Democratic events featuring figures like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in Boise.

• Charlie Kirk [14:29]: “Bernie and AOC drew 12,000 people in Boise. What do you make about the AOC of the AOC Bernie combination?”

Marlowe expresses skepticism about the numbers, attributing them to astroturfing and orchestrated efforts rather than genuine grassroots movements:

• Alex Marlowe [15:22]: “I don't really buy the 12,000 number... they're just copying it.”

He urges for continued vigilance, viewing these numbers as part of a larger, coordinated effort to amplify Democratic influence.

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7. Christian Apologetics and Countering Myths

Later in the episode, Frank Turek delves into Christian apologetics, responding to critiques presented by Bill Maher regarding the originality of Christianity.

• Frank Turek [20:47]: “It's just not true. Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true.”

Turek dismantles the argument that Christianity borrowed heavily from earlier Middle Eastern religions, emphasizing the distinctiveness of Christian resurrection narratives compared to pagan myths.

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8. Defending the Historical Existence of Jesus

Kirk and Turek engage in a robust defense of the historical existence of Jesus Christ, countering fringe theories that question His existence.

• Frank Turek [23:08]: “Jesus inarguably is the most influential human being to ever walk the earth... there are at least 10 ancient non-Christian sources within 150 years of Jesus's life that mention Jesus and/or the apostles.”

Turek cites historical figures like Josephus and references New Testament documents to substantiate Jesus's existence and the early Christian narratives surrounding His life and resurrection.

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9. Approaches to Evangelism and Sharing the Gospel

Concluding the episode, Kirk and Turek discuss effective strategies for evangelism, emphasizing a gentle and inquisitive approach over confrontational methods.

• Frank Turek [33:14]: “We want to gently correct them and ask them a lot of questions because we want them walking away going, I want to know more.”

Turek advocates for engaging conversations that open doors for future dialogue, highlighting the importance of grace and relationship-building in sharing the Christian faith.

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Key Takeaways:

• Engaging Across Divides: Charlie Kirk emphasizes the importance of dialogue with opposing viewpoints, as exemplified by his conversation with Bill Maher.
• Political Strategy: The episode explores Democratic tactics to challenge and undermine the Trump administration through legal avenues and primary challenges.
• Judicial Influence: Concerns are raised about the judiciary's expanding role in political conflicts, potentially hindering presidential authority.
• Grassroots Authenticity: Skepticism is expressed regarding the authenticity of high-turnout Democratic events, suggesting orchestrated efforts rather than genuine grassroots support.
• Defending Christianity: Frank Turek robustly defends the originality and historical foundations of Christianity against claims of it being derivative from earlier religions.
• Effective Evangelism: The discussion underscores a compassionate and inquisitive approach to sharing the Christian faith, fostering openness and curiosity.

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Notable Quotes:

• Alex Marlowe [06:41]: “They are trying to trip up Donald Trump and Stephen Miller... create a narrative that will allow for them to win in the midterms and then start the impeachments.”
• Frank Turek [20:47]: “It’s just not true. Just because it’s on the Internet doesn’t mean it’s true.”
• Frank Turek [23:08]: “Jesus inarguably is the most influential human being to ever walk the earth...”

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Conclusion

This episode of The Charlie Kirk Show offers a comprehensive analysis of contemporary political strategies employed by Democratic factions against the MAGA movement, intertwined with a robust defense of Christian apologetics. Through insightful discussions with guests Frank Turek and Alex Marlowe, Kirk navigates complex topics ranging from legal maneuvers in politics to the historical and intellectual foundations of Christianity, providing listeners with a nuanced perspective on current cultural and ideological battles.

Transcript

[Charlie Kirk]

Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio Charlie Kirk Show. Frank Turek joins to walk through my Bill Maher conversation. By the way, that will be posted tomorrow on the Charlie Kirk show podcast page. So all the more reason to make sure you're subscribed and to listen to it when it is posted. I think you're really gonna enjoy it. It'll be the annotated version. And then we also have Alex Marlowe to discuss Mr. Garcia. And should we be worried about Bernie Sanders and AOC. Email me, as always, freedomarliekirk.com and subscribe to the Charlie Kirk show podcast page. Get involved with Turning point [e-mail] as well. That's tpaction.com when you subscribe to the Charlie Kirk show podcast page, you get notifications of new episodes. So make sure you do that Charlie Kirk show podcast page. Email me. As always, freedom charliekirk.com, buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

[Alex Marlow]

Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

[Frank Turek]

I want you to know we are.

[Alex Marlow]

Lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa.

[Charlie Kirk]

We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble gold [e-mail] that is noblegoldinvestments.com it's where I buy all of my gold. Go to noblegoldinvestments.com joining us now is a very good friend of mine, Alex Marlow. He's terrific. We got to have Alex on Moore. He's just terrific. And Salem Radio Network and amongst many other things. So, Alex, a lot to discuss here, but as you know, I went on Bill Maher's program last week. I have never done marijuana in my life, but I don't know if I could say that anymore. So now when I go to these college campuses, I have. Charlie, have you ever smoked weed? I'm like, well, not directly, but very well by secondhand smoke. What was your reaction to my conversation with Bill Maher? I thought it was very friendly it was very cordial and in some ways very hopeful. Alex, your thoughts?

[Alex Marlow]

Yeah, I totally agree. Good for you for going on, Charlie. You're cornering the market for actually talking to the other side, which is, which is nice. It's a great spot to be in. If I interviewed you, my first question was going to be, did you get a contact high? It's one of these things out here in California that is. It's a real thing because I've never smoked weed also, so I don't. I think you now have officially had a half a time. So I think one half of a time I think you can say if anyone asks, my reaction is very positive.

[Charlie Kirk]

I like, for the record, I did not inhale.

[Alex Marlow]

That's right. It's worked before. That excuse has worked before in the past. People have gotten away with it. So my reaction is very positive. I'm glad you're doing it. I'm glad he's doing this. So in general, I'm in the camp that Mars stick, he's got a couple shticks, but one of them is he's saying all the stuff that folks like you and me and Steve and all Donald Trump were saying eight, 10 years ago, and people are talking about him like he's a genius for saying them. And I do find that a little irritating and frustrating. But he does have one other shtick that I love, which is he literally is the only person who's talking to all people of every political angle. I know you would talk to them, Charlie. I know I would talk to them on my show, but they don't tend to show up for whatever reason. He's figured out a way to get all these people to show up and talk to him of all these different viewpoints. And it is a terrific product that he puts out because of that. And it's not that he's so amazing, even though he's of course got some skills, but his ability to bring people in is a skill in an of itself and you've absolutely got to hand it to him for that. And it makes it so that you're able to get deeper on conversations and topics that you're just not going to be able to do in a two minute sound bite or people talking past each other on social media. So I'm glad you're doing it and I'm glad that this could be hopefully open up some doors for some people.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And we have later in the hour, Frank Turek to dive deeper into the apologetics Christian side of the discussion, which a lot of our discussion was centered around Christianity. Let's just play one piece of tape here, and then I want to get into some of the news of the day, because we did talk a lot about Garcia. That was a big portion of my conversation with Bill Maher. Let's play a little funny one. Let's play cut123.

[Alex Marlow]

Drink?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I'm good, thank you.

[Alex Marlow]

You don't drink?

[Charlie Kirk]

No.

[Frank Turek]

Or smoke pot?

[Charlie Kirk]

No.

[Frank Turek]

And you're married and super Christian. We're going to get along great.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is going to just be perfect. And we did get along great. It's a good example of how we can heal the country.

[Alex Marlow]

Yeah, it is. And I do like that you guys got along. I think it's a good thing because for me, I'm an information guy, and I am ideologically conservative. I'm a Catholic. I'm a Christian. I've been a Republican for my whole life, even though that's been hard sometimes. But I will tell you, Charlie, what animates me more as a news person is what's next, what's coming down the pike, what's exciting, what interesting conversations are being had. And so I want more of that. I don't need agreement. This world would be incredibly uninteresting if people only agreed. So if there's a new willingness to talk amongst people who do not have your same viewpoint or lifestyle. You have children. He's twice your age and no children. I mean, there's so many differences. But it does make for an interesting conversation. I'm just sad to see it's so infrequent. It really is still too infrequent. This is, unfortunately, the exception and not the rule. But let's make it the rule. Let's make it the rule that we actually start talking to each other again. But also, I think some of what he's doing there with the substances is shtick. I think he's trying to draw you out. I think Rogan does this to some degree with people. I. I don't. Was he getting drunk and high while he was there? I know he was sipping on stuff.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, yeah, it was. That's what I'm saying. It was. It was quite a exhibit in hedonism.

[Alex Marlow]

Oh, really? That's it. Because I always feel like I asked this because my friend Robert Dahby writes for us sometimes, who, I'm sure you're aware of, who's an actor from a lot of Things Die Hard. Among other things, he used to hang out with a lot of the Rat Pack guys. I always Asked him, were they just getting completely loaded or was that part of. Part of, part of an image? And he said it was a mix. It was. They were drinking, but it was exaggerated for the sake of storytelling.

[Charlie Kirk]

So, Alex, now transitioning to Mr. Abrego Garcia. Abrego Garcia, everyone's favorite Maryland resident. Yeah, The Maryland dad, the Maryland man, the upstanding citizen. Where does this whole situation stand and what is your analysis of it?

[Alex Marlow]

So what's interesting about this case is that I think both sides, Rorschach test, both sides think they're going to win this thing. We see it as these people are lunatics. They are all in for Ms. 13, meaning the Democrats, they're going down there with the have margaritas with MS.13 members. It's this case where he's got all these people in the car with him and no one's got any luggage. And it's clearly involved in human smuggling that appears to be adding to his resume. Makes you feel as though that how could the Democrats possibly get the upper hand on this? But that's not really the game they're playing. The game they're playing is they're trying to trip up Donald Trump and Stephen Miller and the people who are setting policy for the White House and trying to get them to cross one of these judges to have some sort of a constitutional crisis, to create a narrative that will allow for them to win in the midterms and then start the impeachments. And Trump's presidency is going to be completely curtailed by the left wing hysteria and legal activ. Lawfare. That's the game they're playing. They're not really living for just this news cycle. They're trying to lay out a strategy that will eventually lead to an impeachment for Donald Trump. So let's not get too cocky. I know they look insane defending ms.13 today, but we've got to be pretty vigilant here because if Trump makes one false move here they are trying to come up with a strategy that leads to his, if not outright removal, at least waste all his time.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So I think that's right. I think that's really appropriate prudence. What do you make of the calamity in the judicial branch? There is a school of thought that says, look, the Trump administration just fill out the forms, request him back in quotes. Bukele will say no, that'll satisfy the courts, and this issue will largely be put to rest. It keeps on living because of the numerous court interventions around this case.

[Alex Marlow]

Yeah, it's a Great question, because I'm generally a don't give an inch guy, but I do feel like I would kind of love to see them bring him back and then just deport him again because they would and they could. Miller said as much and he could be deported for any reason. So I don't know, maybe this morning I'm leaning towards, towards do that. But in general, until you just brought it up just now, I do like the don't give an inch approach. Who cares about these people? Who cares about left wing media? There was nothing wrong that was done in terms of the law. But the left thinks there's some sort of a hold order that Trump is violating here. And Trump has not crossed one of these lawfare judges yet. He's not done anything illegal. He does not. And I think that's a really wise strategy for now. But it's also, Charlie, what we're seeing is not sustainable. They can't have 675 presidents of the United States who are doubling as district court judges who have a veto over everything Donald Trump does. We can't do that for the next seven to eight, seven or eight years, however long Trump's going to remain as president. So.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. So this, let's play a piece of tape here from. Yeah, let's play cut 97, please.

[Frank Turek]

Who did pay for this trip? This was an officially cleared congressional trip. Clear on taxpayer dollars.

[Alex Marlow]

Yes.

[Frank Turek]

Like every other trip.

[Charlie Kirk]

And then let's put 172 up on screen. This shows that again, apparently this is how gang tattoos work. An MS.13 style tattoo right on his hands. And so, Alex, your message is caution here. Understand the bigger picture, please.

[Alex Marlow]

Yeah, I just feel like this is one where in the short term we've got the, we got to emphasize the Democrats are cornered here defending all of Ms. 13 and they're of course defending illegally alien gang members over American citizens continuing. Trump continuing to have the angel moms out there make them surrogates in this regard, I think is really important and it's a great move. But just know that the main goal, they're not dumb. They're, they're foolish sometimes, but they're not dumb on the left. And they're trying to get Trump administration to violate some sort of directive from a court that could lead towards political momentum, towards impeachment. And so just keep that in mind that they're not doing this without a end game in mind. They are. I think we can beat them at this. I think we are beating them. But let's just not, not be Too overzealous.

[Charlie Kirk]

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[Alex Marlow]

David Hogg, who I know you know, a vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, he's going to be joining us on the roundtable and he is pursuing this effort to unseat some Democrats in safe seats through primary challenges. Well, I look forward to standing behind every single Democratic incumbent from the most.

[Frank Turek]

Progressive to the most centrist and all points in between.

[Charlie Kirk]

Alex, your thoughts?

[Alex Marlow]

Yeah, it's really compelling because we in the Republican Party benefited greatly from a civil war that took place and the history is just, just really important here because remember when Mitt Romney lost, I think he spent like $3 billion on that campaign and we thought he had a good chance. Remember Charlie he basically took a walk on the last debate with Obama because he thought he won. He just agreed with Obama on everything in the last debate. And then he got his clock cleaned and we were all sitting around thinking, what do we got to do? And the Republican establishment told us we need to embrace amnesty, amnesty for illegal aliens. That's what it was going to take for us to win elections. And a lot of us, myself included, said, we're not going to do that. And that's where places like Breitbart, and it led to the rise of Trump started saying, we are going to crack down on this stuff. We're going the complete oppos direction and we don't care if a civil war breaks out because this is a hill to die on. And it worked out incredibly. I mean, if you had told me that after the 2012 autopsy that we did Donald Trump in four years and then Donald Trump again four years after that, I mean, or eight years after that, I mean, it's a. You wouldn't believe it, but it worked out for us. Now the problem is who would win a civil war with the Democrats? It'd probably be the insane people because they've got the most energy, they inspire the donors. So you'd get this sort of dark woke. Is that is what they're talking about, where they're really leaning into the woke stuff? Even though we think woke is over, Charlie, they don't all feel that way. So if they have a civil war, I think it might actually hurt them. But you know what? If they want to try it, they might need to because their leadership is so lame and weak right now.

[Charlie Kirk]

There's something of note here that we don't want to ignore. I was just in Boise, Idaho, and we drew a big crowd. I mean, you know, to go debate a bunch of college kids, to draw 3,000 people, that's big. However, you have to be honest, you got to tell it like it is. The night before Bernie and AOC, they drew 12,000 people in Boise. It's a big number. Now, I understand that area, that part of the world doesn't get a lot of attention. It's kind of like what happens when we go to California, when you're so in the ideological minority, you tend to draw out anyone that's like minded because there really is nothing of the sort. But 12,000 people in Boise is real. They were drawing big crowds all across the West. What do you make about the AOC of the AOC Bernie combination? Is this a robust grassroots populist counter to maga, or is it basically the Democrats continuing on their ultra radical policies and something that we should encourage more of happening?

[Alex Marlow]

Well, Bernie's a total fraud. He wouldn't even support the Democrats that he got along with when Trump put them up for confirmation. Which is another genius move by Trump. Not only did he pick the best people for his cabinet, but he picked Democrats specifically to expose the senators who act like they're anti establishment, but they're pure establishment. Bernie's always been that way. He's got a bunch of houses, he's a rich guy, and then he acts like he's a socialist. But there is an astroturf here which might comfort the audience a little bit, which is a lot of them are trying to piggyback off of musical acts so they'll get the musicians out who people want to see and then they'll tack on AOC or Bernie Sanders speech. So I don't really buy the 12,000 number, but that said, we should go to the woodshed and act as though they're building a robust grassroots resistance that isn't just Soros funded stuff. Like a lot of the Tesla stuff and a lot of our reporting. This group Indivisible, that's very networked. Or the new Arabella advisors where they're just funding everything. We gotta act like they're gonna get organized and they're gonna come back and they're gonna mount to come back. We gotta act like we're in a war footing. We're not in peacetime yet. We're in wartime. We should behave that way. But if you want a comfort, I don't think the 12,000 number is legit. Charlie, your 3,000 number is legit and very impressive. I'm loving the college stuff. Absolutely incredible content. And good for you for doing it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you. In fact, we're doing more campus tour stopping this semester than even during the election. We are in a 24, 7, 365 mentality. Elections are merely just moments in a broader cultural conflict. Alex, you're the best. Plug whatever you want to our audience.

[Alex Marlow]

Alex Marlow show and the Salem Podcast Network. So that's the wherever you get your podcasts. And leaving a nice review is always good as well. But anytime you need me, Charlie, I'm here for you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks Alex, so much. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Why Refi helps refinance private student loans. A lot of students still have private student loan debt and it's been grandfathered in. I want you to think to yourself, everyone in the audience knows someone with private student loan debt, and it's probably crushing them. Think, think, think. Who is it? Is it a son? Is it a daughter? Is it niece? Is it a nephew? Is it you? Do you have those bills coming from these private student loan debts? You're like, this is too much. Why refi. They're phenomenal. They're very ethical. They're patriotic. If you are going to do debt resettlement, which is perfectly fine, it's understandable. In fact, it's admirable. This is the company to do it, not just some local yokel that is running some billboard thing that might throw it off. This right here, I know them. They help support us. They support Amfest. They support our student action summit. They support a young Women's leadership summit. They are a driving ascendant force. Go to yrefi.com may not be available in all 50 states. Yrefy.com email us. As always, freedomarliekirk.com as you know, I joined the Bill Maher program last week and it aired yesterday. And our full annotated version will be out tomorrow. And my very good friend Frank Turek took a lot of time, about two hours out of, probably three hours out of his schedule, to watch the entire thing and give his feedback on things that we could add on top of it on how we can best defend our faith. Frank, great to see you, and thank you for taking the time. And happy belated Easter.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, Charlie, you took the right approach with Bill. You were very kind to him. You could have said a lot more, but as you say, when you're on a podcast, somebody else's podcast, you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. You just. You want to get a few points in, but you don't want to make it a monologue as to why the guy's wrong.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, thank you. And it was. It was not an interesting environment to be in, to say the least. So, no, let's go to this one. Let's play cut 127. I'd love your reaction, Frank.

[Frank Turek]

I'm gonna take something that is so.

[Alex Marlow]

Anti intellectual, even though I can argue.

[Frank Turek]

Like an intellectual, however.

[Charlie Kirk]

But you have to acknowledge, even the greatest minds of history have been mesmerized by the scriptures. Isaac Newton, Thomas Aquinas. Well, Isaac Newton wrote more about biblical prophecy than even physics. And so there's something about the scriptures that are intellectual that does push your limits. And that's what I think is so beautiful about our faith, is it can be accessible to everyone, but also infinitely nourishing and Exploration. Frank, are the scriptures anti intellectual?

[Frank Turek]

No, not at all. In fact, the Bible continually tells us to give reasons for what we believe. And of course, even Yahweh in the Old Testament says, come, let us reason together. You know, Charlie, one of the things that atheists cannot answer, cannot actually give a cause for, is reason itself. I mean, if we're just molecules in motion, if we're just molecular machines, if we're nothing but moist robots, which is the common view of most materialists today, most atheists today, then they shouldn't even believe anything they think because every thought they have is the result of the laws of physics. They're not really thinking, they're reacting. And CS Lewis pointed this out brilliantly in so many of his works that if materialism's true, there's no way to even justify thinking. There's no way to justify reason. And if you can't justify thinking, you can't call a Christian anti intellectual, because you haven't, as an atheist, even explained our ability to think and reason.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so, Frank, one of the contentions that Bill Maher made is that, listen, Christianity, it's just a counterfeit of all these other Middle Eastern religions, Osiris and all this virgin birth and raised from the dead. This is a story that is appropriated and Christianity just copied other religions in the Middle East. How would you react to that?

[Frank Turek]

Well, we have a whole section, and I don't have enough faith to be an atheist about that. It's just not true. Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true. Okay, about the only dying and rising God prior to Christianity was Osiris from Egypt. And that wasn't a resurrection into a new body. That was a kind of ethereal resurrection into the underworld. That's not what the New Testament's talking about. In fact, almost all of these supposed dying and rising gods come after Christianity, not before. So if anyone's copying from anyone, it's not Christianity copying from pagan resurrection myths, it's the pagan resurrection myths copying from Christianity. But you know, as CS Lewis also pointed out, just because you have a parallel between two stories doesn't mean one is copied from another. In fact, there was a ship, Charlie, I don't know if you heard about it. It made its maiden voyage from the UK back in the early 1900s. It hit an iceberg, a lot of people died. And of course you're going to say, well, Frank, of course that was the Titanic. Well, actually, it was actually a novel from, I think, 1898 called the Futility. And it predated the Titanic. Just by chance, nobody would say, well, the Titanic story then must be copied from this novel called Futility. It just happened to be that there were parallels. So parallels don't necessarily prove that one is copying from another anyway.

[Charlie Kirk]

And look, for example, a lot of the religions that overlap with Christianity, the overlap lines up with Christianity's rise, so they're just copying it. Like in Norse mythology, for example, there's a God Balder, who dies and comes back and creates a paradise after an apocalypse. But almost certainly this part of the myth was influenced by the spread of Christianity and was written down only in the Middle Ages. Another thing that Bill Maher mentioned in the discussion and I didn't even know how to process this, I mean in real time, Frank. I knew that this school of thought existed, but I thought it was only on Reddit or Discord channels, not in agreed upon high scholarly thinking. Did Jesus Christ actually exist? Frank Turek that there, if there is.

[Frank Turek]

One or two scholars out of many thousands, Charlie, in academia today who study this kind of material and I'm not talking about, you know, Bible believing Christians, there are atheists or New Testament scholars, if there's one or two out there, it's a lot who say Jesus never existed. I mean think about this, Charlie. Jesus inarguably is the most influential human being to ever walk the earth. How could he possibly have never existed? It would be like somebody 2000 years from now saying Luke Skywalker is the most influential human being to ever walk the earth. Nobody 2000 years from now is going to take a fictitious character and say that person is the most influential human being on the earth. Not only that, but there are non Christian sources. And you began to talk about this a little bit in your interview with Bill, Charlie, you didn't get a chance to complete the thought, but there are at least 10 ancient non Christian sources within 150 years of Jesus's life that mention Jesus and or the apostles. People like Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus, Phlego.

[Charlie Kirk]

Josephus was Talmud. I forgot I screwed up Herodotus and Josephus, but thank, yeah, but that's a big one. Remind the audience who Josephus was. That's an extra biblical account of Jesus's life. Non biblical.

[Frank Turek]

Josephus lived from 37 A.D. to about 100 A.D. and he wrote several books related to the Jews. One's called Antiquities and others called it's about the Jewish War is another one. And he mentions Jesus, he mentions John the Baptist, he mentions that James the Half brother of Jesus is killed as a martyr. He's the pastor of the church in Jerusalem, and he's killed. In 62 AD the Sanhedrin, the Jewish ruling council, threw him off the Temple Mount and then they stoned him to death. Now, this is the same guy, by the way, Charlie, who wrote that little book in the New Testament called James. He's also the same guy who did not believe his brother was God before the resurrection. But then James had Jesus appear to him, and that's why he converted and that's why he was later executed by the Jews. So Josephus has a lot of great information on some of the New Testament events. But let me, let me hasten to say this, Charlie. The best evidence for Jesus is in what we call the New Testament documents. And you don't have to assume that they are inspired to get good historical information out of them. Even atheists like Bart Ehrman, who teaches here, where I am in North Carolina, Unc Chapel Hill, he admits that Jesus existed. He said probably one of the most attested to facts from ancient history is the crucifixion of Jesus. Of course he doesn't believe in the resurrection, but there's virtually no scholars out there who say Jesus never rose from the dead. Or I should say never existed. Which is why when Bill tried to say that it's completely off the road.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, let's let the other one, which I didn't quite grasp, and I did find that there was a school of thought out there that exists, but very fringe, that Paul was talking about a spiritual Jesus. That Paul, I just thought at the top of my head, I mean, First Corinthians, he talked about, we will say that Jesus rose from the dead and that Jesus appeared to 500 believers. Where does this come from? And is there any merit to the argument that Paul was somehow not connected or he thought Jesus was just the spiritual celestial being?

[Frank Turek]

No, because Paul makes it very clear that he's talking about a resurrected body, a body that comes out of the tomb. It would have been easy to say Jesus resurrected spiritually. Then you wouldn't have to. You know, his body could still be in the tomb and you could still say, oh, he resurrected spiritually. But that wasn't the case. Jesus's tomb was empty. And it would have been easy to squash Christianity if it wasn't empty, because both the Romans and the Jews who didn't want Christianity to succeed would have gone to the right tomb and taken out his body. They didn't do it because his body wasn't in there. So, no, this was a physical resurrection. And that's what made it so crazy to the Greeks because they didn't think. They didn't. They didn't think anyone would want to have their body raised. They wanted to be liberated from the body. So when Paul is talking on, on Mars Hill as recorded in Acts 17, and he's bringing up a physical resurrection, these guys over there are incredulous. You know, they're going, we don't want that. We want to be liberated from the body. No, this was a physical resurrection. Christianity only makes sense if that's the case.

[Charlie Kirk]

The book is I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist. And Frank, I want you to sign one for Bill. Next time I see him, I'm going to give him a copy and say, you have a obligation to read this bill. Super quick. About 30 seconds here, Frank. And we have another segment coming up. Remind the audience of the great work that cross examine does and plug the book as well.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, absolutely. Cross examine.org, we go to college campuses as well, Charlie. We're nearly always talking about why I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. We're giving evidence that Christianity is true. Then we take questions. We have a YouTube channel, cross examine, two words at YouTube. And we also have a podcast called I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist. So we're going to college campuses, high schools, churches, presenting the evidence that Christianity is true and taking a lot of questions. We have over 2,500 videos on our YouTube channel. Most of them are Q and A videos from the college campus.

[Charlie Kirk]

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[Frank Turek]

Truth to what you said, not what he said. In fact, it's all over the New Testament and as you mentioned, even the Old Testament, I mean, the Holy Spirit comes upon the believers at Pentecost, which as one of the most accurate. I mean, I think all the books are accurate. But one of the most verifiable books in the New Testament is the Book of Acts, Charlie. And in our book, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, keep watch.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, you did. Because both Luke and Acts are written by Luke, and Luke is an historian of first rank that was even admitted by a archaeologist by the name of Sir William Ramsay, who initially was skeptical of Luke 100 years ago, then he spent 20 years studying Luke. And he said, Luke is an historian of first rank. And if you go through the Book of acts, there are 84 historically eyewitness, confirmable details that only an eyewitness or somebody that knew an eyewitness would know. Just in the Book of Acts, Charlie, we list them all. And I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. So the Holy Spirit is all over the documents. And as you pointed out in your rebuttal video response video that you released earlier today, or maybe it was yesterday with, with Bill Maher. Even the, I mean, the, the data, the documents is important, but what's more important are the sources for the documents. Charlie, as you explain, if you were to write a book, or I were to write a book about 9, 11 right now, which is about 23 years ago, it's more important that I'm interviewing people who saw it. That's more important than the date. I'm writing it down right now in 2025. And that's what goes on with the New Testament. The date. It's the dates of these. Of these books are written during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses, by eyewitnesses or people that knew eyewitnesses because they proved it by putting data in the text that only an eyewitness would know. But they're actually interviewing people. If they weren't eyewitnesses themselves, like Luke wasn't. They were interviewing people that were there and they're still alive when they're writing it. So this is eyewitness testimony. This material is telling us really what happened. And by the way, Charlie, they had no motive to make it up. They didn't get sex, they didn't get money, they didn't get power. All they got as former believers in Yahweh, just Jewish believers in Yahweh, is they got kicked out of the synagogue, they got beaten, tortured and killed. That's why I thought your question when you asked him, why would they fake the resurrection? Was brilliant. And he really didn't have a response because there is no answer. Why would they fake this to get themselves abused? They wouldn't.

[Charlie Kirk]

In closing here, Frank, what from my conversation, Bill, more broadly, how should Christians share the gospel? I try to take a more gentle touch. I wanted to develop a relationship with Bill. It was tempting to kind of go all in and go heavy apologetics and a little finger wagging. Just speak as someone who does this for a living. In closing here, about a minute and a half remaining, the different approaches that we as believers should bring to unusual circumstances to point towards Jesus.

[Frank Turek]

Well, I think both you and I try and take the approach where we don't want to try and own people. We want to gently correct them and ask them a lot of questions because we want them walking away going, I want to know more. We don't want them walking away from a interaction with us to say, oh, man, I hated that guy. He made me look bad. You don't want to do that. You want to try and win people. Look, Charlie, as you know, when somebody asks you a question, you're not just answering a question, you're answering a person. And so you want to provide an opening for the next conversation. And what I try and ask people is, if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? And Charlie, I've had atheists stand at their microphone in front of hundreds of people on college campuses and say no, because they don't want it to be true. So I think that clears the deck of all the objections they could have. So I always ask that question. You asked a similar question to Bill. You asked him, hey, do you hope you were wrong? That kind of thing? That's what we need to take. We need to ask people questions and we shouldn't expect people to agree with us. We should just ask questions, make points, and really highlight grace. Charlie because grace is what people are looking for. Look, there's only two things you're going to get in the afterlife. You're either going to get justice or grace. There's no other category.

[Charlie Kirk]

Frank, thank you so much. God bless you my friend. Crossexamine. Org thank you.

[Frank Turek]

Thanks Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks so much for listening everybody. Email us as always, Freedom at charliekirk. Com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless.

[Frank Turek]

For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk. Com.