Donald Trump (6:36)

It wasn't called training your replacement. It was called knowledge transfer. Craig DeAngelo worked for Northeast Utilities, now called Eversource, and was one of 220 IT workers replaced by H1B visa employees. DeAngelo says his replacement, a worker from India, told him he was making half DeAngelo's salary with no benefits. I didn't get laid off for lack of work. I got laid off because somebody cheaper could do my job now.

Charlie Kirk (7:10)

And it's ideal. The H1B visa is used for people. You can't find other Americans to do that job, that it's only for high, high tech, like people, PhDs. In reality, it's being used for entry level accountants. It's being used for people that are at the entry level of the job ladder. This is another example of cut 67 of how the H1B visa has become inherently fraudulent against the American people. Play cut 67.

Donald Trump (7:39)

Leo Perero had just received high performance reviews from Disney, which when he was called into a personnel meeting, he expected a raise and a promotion.

Craig DeAngelo (7:49)

And instead I was given the news that in 90 days my job was over and I had to train my replacement. Never in my life did I imagine until this happened at Disney that I could be sitting at my desk and somebody would be flown in from another country, sit at my same desk and chair and take over what I was doing. It was the most humiliating and demoralizing thing I've ever gone through in my life.

Charlie Kirk (8:16)

The biggest companies who hate us the most that have smeared us, slandered us and transed our kids are the ones that are pushing for more foreign labor into the top levels of our corporations and our entry levels. Now I want to be very clear about where we stand on this. We are opposed to the mass importations of H1 visas. Visas to the United States. Here are the facts. The H1B visa program is heavily abused by these major multi trillion dollar companies and software firms generally to bring in workers at lower wages than they would have to pay Americans. Another reason companies use them is that H1B visas, like I say, is indentured servitude. They can't leave that job. Now there's a really good argument and I sympathize with this, to be honest. An argument for letting in talented people to the United States. I think that's a great argument. No issue on that. But the H1B system is not that. It is a way to depress wages and replace American workers. If you want to let in an ultra talented genius, we have actually a different visa for that. It's called O1 visa. We could also change our system. Right now America lets in 55,000 immigrants a year through the diversity lottery. Imagine if we got rid of that and instead of letting 10,000 people a year who score the highest on a difficult test of IQ plus English language proficiency, with strict controls to prevent cheating and to keep out anybody with a criminal record, that would let in a lot of talented people who would make America a better country. America is a rich country that hundreds of millions of people want to move to. There is no excuse for not exploiting that to let in the only ones we want to let in the absolute most. This is a violation of our social contract and it sounds good. Let's just let more H1B workers in. But what about the 23 year old that went to University of Washington and studied computer science at the UW Computer science department? Shouldn't he be given preference above someone who could do the work for far less? It is about priorities. And it's not about what Charlie Kirk wants. It's not about what other people want out there. And I have friends on both sides of this debate. It's very simple. It's what the American people wanted and the American people overwhelmingly voted for. Less immigration and the prioritization of the American children and the American worker, not the American oligarch. Folks, your halls are decked with Holly and the sound of Andy Williams on the radio tells us to be of good cheer, but often the joy of the season is is lost in the hustle and bustle. That's why my friends at Hillsdale College produced a free online course on Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol. You're likely familiar with the story of old miser Ebenezer Scrooge and his three ghostly visitors. Scrooge famously refuses to be charitable in order to decrease the surplus population. But there's more to Scrooge, which is why we cheer for him year after year. In this free online course, you'll learn how Scrooge is frightening and and enlightening encounters reveal the joy of Christmas. You can register today@charlieforhillsdale.com that is charlieforhillsdale.com Charlieforhillsdale.com my friends do treat yourself to Hillsdale's new free online course On A Christmas Carol. Sign up today by visiting CharlieForHillsdale.com that's CharlieForHillsdale.com and on behalf of my friends at Hillsdale College, have a me. Brook writes us from Payson, Arizona. Great spot. Love Payson by the way, it's one of the crown jewels of Arizona that is not talked about enough. Charlie. I'm a retired IT professional and the subject is a thorn in my side. I've seen this in place and it makes me sick. This has been going on for 20 years. However, I worked at a Southern California Edison and we had rooms full of H1B workers. I'm happy this subject is finally getting talked about. Yes, you are correct. These jobs are going to entry level workers and that in many cases they're paid 1/3 of what their American counterparts are paid. This practice must stop. By the way, we are getting hundreds of emails about this. Just like the floodgates are open of people that have lost their jobs and they had to train their replacements. Mind you, this is not illegal immigration. That is a completely separate issue. That is an invasion. Everyone must go mass deportation, close the border down. This is voluntarily letting people in when our graduates, our children and our people could otherwise do their jobs. And I want to also just extend the best possible platforming to those that are proponents of H1B. I don't think people that are pushing for H1Bs or people that were saying this these last couple days like Elon who I think is a hero, or Vivek who's a dear friend, or David Sacks. They love this country. Their belief system though is this is that we want to scoop up all the world's talent and bring it in. What could possibly be wrong with that? And of course, in practice, there's a lot wrong with it. It's highly, highly complicated. Right now, America lets in 55,000 people per year through our diversity lottery. That is insane. Get rid of it. So here is my common ground, because I have friends on both sides of this debate on the Pro H1B and the Anti H1B. You guys know where we stand. We stand with American workers 100%. Figure it out. Hire American. That's our belief. However, I totally sympathize with the Pro H1B lobby. So here is my solution. We should have a once per year test of your iq, your mathematic ability, and your English language ability. Let the top 10,000 people who score on that test into America a year. Ban anybody with a criminal record. And that would be vastly different than what we do now. So I totally see the idea of we want the world's super geniuses coming to America. Agree. Agree, agree, agree. What I'm not cool with is just saying, oh, we need another accountant. Let's bring someone in from a foreign country like India, and we pay them $45,000 a year instead of $65,000 a year. No. Or, hey, I'm Salesforce, or hey, I'm Dropbox, or I'm Google and I want to have more people that are coding. I don't want to pay $95,000 a year to somebody that just went to Caltech. Instead, I want to pay $65,000 a year. H1B visas have been abused and gamed to lower pay in the technology field. Meanwhile, profits are at record highs. Apple. How much is Apple worth today? $3 trillion. How much is Alphabet worth today? $1.8 trillion. How much is Meta worth today? $1.6 trillion. How much is Amazon worth today? Nearly $2 trillion. Can you guys get the actual market caps? Nvidia? $3.3 trillion. These companies have plenty of value and plenty of profits to increase pay. Plenty. They're dealing with plenty of cash flow. So this idea that these companies won't be able to make profit because they'll have to go pay 20% more for their workers. Yeah. Apple is now at $3.8 trillion. Think they can afford someone coding at $95,000 a year versus $60,000 a year? American students deserve priority. Either we are a country or we are a colony. And that's fine. If you think we are a colony, just be honest. Just say we're a colony. It's about making money. GDP growth, maximization profit, utilization, Fine. I think we're a country which is a completely different thing. A colony is a place where a bunch of people come in, they trade goods and products and services. No one speaks the same language. You got barter system, bunch of pirates, then you leave. It is the difference between a subject government and a citizen based government. And we want a citizen based government. So I want the world super geniuses, IQ, math, English, top 10,000 a year coming to America, you are welcome. But the H1B system is 80 to 100,000 people a year. And they tend to go into the industries and the roles of our best and brightest. They are undercutting our best. And so right now you have a superstar from Idaho who's studying computer science and he's gonna have to compete against somebody from a foreign country that will undercut his wages. And he did nothing wrong. And yet we're subsidizing that through our immigration policies. We did not vote for that in November. In fact, we voted for the opposite. If your approach to everyday aches and pains is to mask them, you know, feel better for a few hours only to have the pain return and then repeat the cycle all over again, it's time to try Relief factor. And the good news is Relief factor makes it quite easy. Their three week quick start is just $19.95. Less than a dollar a day. 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They tried to dox him and cancel him last year, which we don't take very kindly here in the Charlie Kirk show of which we try to give him the biggest possible platform imaginable. Mr. Lomaz. Jonathan, welcome to the program.

Jonathan Kieperman (18:27)

Charlie, it is great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. On it's an honor to be here. I've been watching your show for a long time. I think you've done some amazing work helping to build this America First Trump coalition and you deserve a lot of credit for what you've done. So this is great to be here and share this audience with you.

Charlie Kirk (18:46)

Thank you. Jonathan, you're incredibly smart, obviously a professor at different time. I'd love to have you on, just talk about what it was like being a professor at UC Irvine as a white male conservative in the English department. I'm sure that you were fighting for the classics while your counterparts were not. But Jonathan, I wanna talk to you about cause we were gonna have Steve Saylor on but he was unavailable. I know you published his book. This raging and spirited and passionate dialogue and conversation that has been happening on X the last day around H1B visas, high tech and mass migration. How should we think about this issue from an America first perspective?

Jonathan Kieperman (19:26)

Yeah. So, you know, this is a very healthy debate and I'm glad we're having it. I've seen, you know, a lot of hot air on Twitter and certainly some feelings have gotten hurt and people have said some things that I'm sure they regret or wish they could take back. But it's good to get this all out in the open. You know, one thing we saw over the last six months to a year with Trump getting elected was bringing on these new coalition partners from Silicon Valley in the tech world. This includes Elon Musk, this includes the guys in the all in podcast. This includes Marc Andreessen, Peter Thiel, of course. And I think to some extent this new coalitional partner underestimated or didn't really understand the salience of immigration and American first policy with regards to labor policy for the Trump coalition. And they got out over their skis a little bit over the weekend supporting H1BS. And now you're seeing a lot of pushback from people on the right, instructing them about why this is a bad idea, about how there are actually better workarounds than just importing an infinite amount of H1BS from places around the world, primarily India, but elsewhere too, that we can actually build out our own labor supply for high tech, high skilled jobs that doesn't require importing people at lower wages to do that for us. And it's a fairly simple fix. And I think these guys are starting to figure that out and retreat a little bit from that position. And we're going to reform this coalition based on this new understanding. So that's the Broad overview.

Charlie Kirk (21:08)

I love that. So let's. So you and I are in harmony and the audience is in agreement around American workers. First, we're not gonna pander to oligarch multi trillion dollar companies, no exaggeration, worth trillions of dollars just because they don't want to pay American workers. But let me steel man the pro H1B visa argument. And then I want to have you respond. They will say, if we don't import these 80 to 100,000 people a year, America will lose. It's about America winning. Our companies will not be able to complete the modern equivalent of the Manhattan Project when it comes to artificial intelligence. Therefore, for America to win, which you and I both want, for us to be able to win the AI arms race, which I imagine you and I both want, therefore we must open up the H1B visa process. What do you make of that argument?

Jonathan Kieperman (21:59)

Yeah, so it's a worthwhile argument to take seriously. And I think it starts with a bit of disagreement over the premise and what it means for America to, quote, unquote, win. From an American first perspective, America winning means the flourishing of the American people inside of America. And that takes precedent over the people of the rest of the world. That doesn't mean we have to neglect or be hostile to the rest of the world. But America winning means American people flourishing. And the difference between Trump and the maga, Right. And all that has come before, at least in my adult lifetime, is the priority on American people. So I want to emphasize that first. That's what comes first. Now winning the AI race, winning the tech race is super important. And I don't want to make that subservient to, you know, all other concerns. But it is very important. The way we do that is by bringing in absolutely necessary world class talent. I don't think there's anybody on the maga, right, who wants to prevent people like Elon Musk from coming into the country. People like, you know, Wernher von Braun, Einstein, John von Neumann, you know, the people from Operation Paperclip, the people who helped to get us to the moon, for example, we want to bring in the that world class talent. But there is a huge difference here between that world class talent that can't be replaced by your average worker and then a guy working some entry level job for $70,000 that can be an American job for Americans. So I think something that's happening here is this conflation between this extreme level of talent that Elon Musk and others, including people on the maga, right? Want to bring into the country and then just the flood of replacement level mediocre talent, engineering talent that can easily be replaced and be done by American workers. And we want to preserve those jobs for Americans.

Charlie Kirk (24:13)

Yeah, and so I agree on the premise. It's just there is this cataclysmic undertone that if we don't do this we will fail. Can you talk about the brain power that we actually have been able to to train and unleash domestically? We have 330 million people here. Is there untapped capacity amongst the American body politic to be able to accomplish some of these goals without having to go to Hyderabad?

Jonathan Kieperman (24:40)

Absolutely. And this is the other thing. There is nothing the American people cannot out compete the rest of the world on given a truly level playing field for the American worker and for American talent to rise to the top. Something we've seen over the last decades with affirmative action, with disparate impact hiring, with the absolute degradation and breakdown of our higher ed system, with hiring practice practices with caps on, you know, white men in management, white men on boards. We have actively suppressed our talent over the course of several decades. And all we need to do is take the knee off the neck of the white American worker and the American worker broadly and we will see all the talent we need. Now again there may be some room to bring in other world class talent from elsewhere, but the American people, if nothing else, have proven over the decades that we can do anything we set our mind to and anything we set our talent to.

Charlie Kirk (25:44)

So let's now do the opposite. Try to explain to the tech world, if they're listening, why this is such a passionate issue for the MAGA base. I was put on a group text last night with a lot of the tech bros and some of the MAGA people. And the premise of the group text was MAGA people. Explain to us why you do not agree with us. Because this particular issue, I have to say, has some of the most fervent zeal by its proponents. I think you would agree with that Jonathan, that if you are in favor of mass H1B you do not even understand the counter argument. And to their credit they wanted to hear it. Couple things. Number one, Big Tech has censored us and smeared us and treated us terribly. Why would we then accommodate their policy wishes? That also is against and contradictory to the core element of the ascendant political majority in this country. Makes no sense, right? I mean this entire world has been very hostile to us. Is there something you'd like to add that to Explain the sentiment of the average Trump voter and how they view this to somebody who does not see it, they don't get it at all. A CEO of a multi trillion dollar company.

Jonathan Kieperman (26:56)

Yeah. And, you know, I have to say it's been very heartening the fact that these tech guys who, you know, put forward these H1B positions want to hear what we have to say. They understand on some level that they don't get it and are willing to listen. And I give them a lot of credit for that. And I do actually trust that there's a lot of mutual interest here and that this coalition can stay together despite some disagreements over this H1B question. And what I'd say is simply from the time that Trump came down the escalator in 2016, when he announced his run initially, the thing he was running on was immigration, and it was preserving America and its inheritance and its largesse for the American people. That is what MAGA ism at bottom is based on. It's based on preserving an America that we know and understand and is the greatest country in the world, preserving its country and preserving its people and its wealth for its people. What this H1B issue does is, is cut directly against that fundamental position that gave rise to MAGA in the first place. Now, we can haggle over some of the details and how we negotiate around identifying talent, but what the tech right needs to understand is this coalition exists, MAGA exists, Trump exists, because of this question over immigration. We fought for decades on this issue. We have finally won a resounding victory here in 2024, and we don't intend to relent on this issue now just because these tech guys need a couple of engineers in their department. This is going to be something we fight on. It's something we care about, and it's something they need to understand as a fundamental issue for the maga. Right.

Charlie Kirk (28:48)

Jonathan, can you please plug a Passage Press or anything that you have that you want?

Jonathan Kieperman (28:53)

Yeah, yeah, I would love to. Yeah. Please go to Passage Press. In you know, the spirit of this show, we have a promo code, Patriot for free shipping on all our books. There you'll find Steve Saylor, who's written a ton about immigration, Curtis Yarvin, Nick Land and others. Please go buy some books.

Charlie Kirk (29:10)

Oh, you have all the verboten people. That's what it should be called.

Jonathan Kieperman (29:13)

That's right.

Charlie Kirk (29:14)

Verboten Press.

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Charlie Kirk (30:22)

Jonathan. So I now wanna ask the other element of this, which makes it even more difficult, which is how foreigners are able to come to our universities and our schools. And so in some ways that is a step one to H1B. So someone goes to Caltech from a foreign country, they get a bachelor's degree, and then they apply for an H1B visa to stay here more permanently, and then intentionally, unintentionally, then disenfranchises American workers. The UC system, for example, basically underwrites their bills with foreigners and they charge a ton to foreigners. Explain to our audience our immigration policy when it comes to higher education how that plays into the broader discussion.

Jonathan Kieperman (31:05)

Yeah, this is such an important component to this because you're talking about the talent development pipeline here. And ultimately what gets manifest at the level of hiring decisions is determined by that talent development pipeline. That should be our higher education system. I worked in the UC system at UC Irvine, an R1 university that's a main research university. We develop a ton of STEM talent. Here's a few facts for the people listening. When I was there in through 2012 to 2022, we had over 20% of our undergraduate population were foreign born nationals. By the time I left in 2022, and anybody can go look this up, there were more foreign born nationals at UC Irvine than there were white males. Okay. Or whites generally. Okay. Now there has been a massive displacement of of the population that these universities are intended to serve by these foreign nationals. There's a bunch of complicated cultural and economic reasons why that's the case. These foreign nationals, for example, pay sometimes two, even three times much in terms of tuition than native born students. And so the universities are incentivized to bring them in. But whatever the explanation, this obviously has to change. We need to recommit our higher ed institutions to developing our own native born talent and pushing them into these fields that are in such high demand from tech world. And that is a solution here. Now, to be fair, I have to concede that there's going to be some time lag. This isn't the kind of policy that you implement tomorrow.

Charlie Kirk (33:04)

Correct.

Jonathan Kieperman (33:04)

And then the next day the results are in front of you. There's going to be years in which this talent development pipeline needs to be reconfigured. But that doesn't mean we don't do it. That doesn't mean we take a shortcut and instead just throw up our hands and say this can't be done. We're going to take in all these foreign H1Bs instead.

Charlie Kirk (33:24)

Last point here. And again, I say this as a simpleton when it comes to these matters, but at least my operating assumption is that artificial intelligence allows us to be more efficient, allows us to get rid of duplicative work. Why is it that we're pushing for mass migration while we are seeing the integration of artificial intelligence technology? Those things seem incompatible with one another, actually.

Jonathan Kieperman (33:49)

Yeah. I mean, we're told two competing things here. On the one hand, AI is going to make all of these low skill tech engineering jobs obsolete. The computers are going to do it themselves. We're told that. But then on the other hand, we're told we need to bring in all of these H1Bs to fill those low skill or modestly skilled engineering coding jobs. Those things don't add up. Now I'm not a tech expert, I'm not an AI, so I can't tell you how real this is, how much of this is just sort of a rhetorical window dressing in order to justify why we need to bring in this cheap labor. I'm willing to take these guys at their word, but something doesn't add up here and they need to explain this. And I just want to end on this final point. This is not about bringing in better talent. This is about bringing in cheaper talent. And if we're going to have this conversation, I want us to be honest about that fact.

Charlie Kirk (34:47)

Jonathan, thank you so much again at least from my perspective, as we become more efficient, more automated and more robotic, for better or for worse, that then would probably weaken the argument that we need to bring in tens of millions of people from the foreign lands. Thank you so much Jonathan. You're welcome. Anytime. Check out Passage Press. Thank you so much.

Jonathan Kieperman (35:05)

Thanks Charlie. Really appreciate it.

Charlie Kirk (35:06)

Thanks so much for listening everybody. Email us. As always, freedomarliekirk.com thanks so much for listening and God bless.

Jonathan Kieperman (35:13)

For more on many of these stories and news you can Trust, go to charliekirk.com.