Building the Criminal Case for Conspiracy Against the Deep State with Kash Patel

Summary

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The Charlie Kirk Show — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Building the Criminal Case for Conspiracy Against the Deep State with Kash Patel
Air Date: September 29, 2021
Host: Charlie Kirk
Guest: Kash Patel

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Episode Overview

In this deep-dive episode, Charlie Kirk is joined by Kash Patel, the investigator who played a key role alongside Devin Nunes in exposing the origins of the Russia investigation—often dubbed "Russiagate." Together, they break down the complex web of events, money flows, and decision-makers behind the infamous investigation into President Donald Trump’s campaign, exploring alleged abuses of government power and the intertwining of political and institutional interests. Patel, optimistic about ongoing investigations led by John Durham, shares insights into the grand strategy and makes bold predictions about future accountability. The conversation also addresses alleged media misinformation, personal attacks faced by Patel, and his legal and activist response.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Kash Patel’s Background and Ongoing Legal Battles

• Patel’s Role: Lead investigator for House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes during the Russiagate probe.
• Targeted Backlash: Detailed efforts by media and Democratic operatives to discredit him and the personal legal fight Patel has launched, including lawsuits against major media outlets.
• FightWithKash.com: Patel's initiative to financially support everyday Americans facing defamation or deplatforming.
  • Quote:

    “I sued Politico, the New York Times, and CNN for defamation."
    (Kash Patel, 04:00)

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2. Timeline and Mechanics of the Russia Investigation

• Pre-Election Moves: Accusations that the Hillary Clinton campaign paid for opposition research (the Steele dossier) which was then funneled through legal and research firms to the FBI and DOJ to wrongly justify secret surveillance on the Trump campaign.

  • Quote:

    “They take that information, knowing it to be false, and stuff it through the media and the left and the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department of Justice just to get fraudulent search warrants on their opponent.”
    (Kash Patel, 05:55)

• Process of Surveillance: Patel explains the FISA warrant process, emphasizing its intended use for national security and the exceptional nature of its alleged abuse in this context.

  • Quote:

    “What they did, though, what Comey did, what McCabe did, and what the DOJ did, was falsely mislead a FISA court.”
    (Kash Patel, 15:11)

• Key Actors Identified: James Comey, Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, Christopher Steele, Fusion GPS, Perkins Coie.

  • FISA and Carter Page: Surveillance targeted Page, thereby accessing broader campaign communications.

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3. Exposure and Oversight

• Nunes and Patel’s Team: Followed money trails, subpoenaed bank records, and challenged the credibility of key informants (Christopher Steele).
• Catalyst for Investigation: Leaks/coverage of the Steele dossier in January 2017 and Michael Flynn’s phone calls prompted a Republican-led inquiry.
  • Quote:

    “If you remember when the Steele dossier first was leaked by the media in January of 17... that coupled with the classified leaks of the Mike Flynn phone calls.”
    (Kash Patel, 18:48)

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4. The Role of the Media and Manufactured Narratives

• Media’s Involvement: Patel asserts that millions flowed to media operatives to promote the Trump-Russia narrative.

  • Quote:

    “They were the ones paying for it. They were the ones pretending to know nothing about it. And then they had a willing media.”
    (Kash Patel, 22:24)

• Democratic Coordination: Cites direct social media posts by Hillary Clinton and Jake Sullivan as examples of circular narrative-building.

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5. John Durham’s Investigation and the Sussman Indictment

• Durham’s Approach: Patel notes that, despite public impatience, Durham is moving quickly given case complexity and that his indictments are structured to eventually implicate broader conspirators.

  • Quote:

    “He wrote a 27 page indictment and as you said, basically laying out a mob conspiracy …”
    (Kash Patel, 23:02)

• Indictment Details: Sussman (Democrat lawyer) is charged for lying to the FBI; eight additional unnamed actors are identified in the indictment by roles (e.g., “lawyer number two”—implied to be Marc Elias).

  • Quote:

    “Michael Sussman wasn't the only player.”
    (Kash Patel, 24:03)

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6. Possibility of Accountability for High-Level Officials

• Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Page: Patel remains hopeful but acknowledges hurdles; processes and decisions were often insulated or well-lawyered.

  • On McCabe:

    “They hatched an insurance policy … in Andy McCabe’s office to prevent then candidate Trump from winning.”
    (Kash Patel, 31:34)

• On Comey:

  • “He’s not gonna leave a trail where you can find his breadcrumbs to connect to the Russiagate scandal.”
    (Kash Patel, 33:25)

• Potential for Prosecution: Patel suggests Strzok and Page may be cooperating with Durham for a lesser sentence.

  • Quote:

    “If I was Lisa Page and Peter Strzok, that would be the smart play. And I believe they actually are because of the information Durham released in this indictment.”
    (Kash Patel, 34:43)

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7. Conspiracy Charge and Its Implications

• Legal Mechanisms: Kirk and Patel discuss how conspiracy statutes would allow prosecutors to charge both indicted and unindicted co-conspirators.

  • Quote:

    “They can loop them in as an unindicted co conspirator... Then you could also bring in the actual conspirators that you can prove and cite and name those guys. That's when it gets really interesting.”
    (Kash Patel, 35:40)

• Limits: Unlikely for senior figures like Obama or Clinton to be implicated, according to Patel.

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8. Broader Lessons on Government and the ‘Deep State’

• Takeaways from Patel: Loyalty to the mission over personal reputation; the need for the right people at every staffing level to avoid institutional subversion.

  • Quote:

    “It doesn't matter how right you are if you work for President Trump. That's the thing I learned the most. The media doesn't care.”
    (Kash Patel, 37:18)

• Deep State Reality: Patel acknowledges the overwhelming majority of public servants act properly but warns that unchecked personnel at all levels can sabotage administrations.

  • Quote:

    “The overwhelming majority of people who sign up to serve are great, but there’s always gonna be a bad few.”
    (Kash Patel, 38:54)

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9. Patel’s Fight Against Personal Attacks and Media Defamation

• Patel recounts media falsely labeling him as Trump’s “Ukraine whisperer” and explains his ongoing lawsuits.
  • Quote:

    “They basically called me Trump's Ukraine whisperer ... I've never had anything to do with the Ukraine in my life.”
    (Kash Patel, 40:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the gravity of the alleged scheme:

  “If you wanted to rewrite The Departed to be this movie, you couldn’t do it because it’s so insane.”
  (Kash Patel, 29:52)

• On the FISA process:

  “We’re basically … spy[ing] on terrorists that we were trying to either take out or arrest. … And they used it on a presidential campaign.”
  (Kash Patel, 16:23)

• On exposure and evidence:

  “If they have an informant, go get the informant files and see if that guy’s credible.”
  (Kash Patel, 17:52)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• [03:55] — Patel outlines the start of his defamation lawsuits and new campaign (FightWithKash.com)
• [05:53] — Explains the mechanics of the campaign-to-FBI pipeline for the Steele dossier
• [12:09] — How DNC money flowed through legal and research firms to fund dossier/operations
• [15:01] — Discussion of FISA process and responsibility chain (Comey, Lynch, etc.)
• [18:42] — Reports how the Steele dossier leak and Flynn's phone calls sparked House GOP inquiry
• [22:59] — Durham’s Sussman indictment and criminal case construction
• [31:19] — Kirk and Patel discuss Andrew McCabe’s role and exposure in the scandal
• [33:25] — On the likelihood of Comey being implicated
• [34:28] — Patel speculates Strzok and Page may be cooperating with Durham
• [35:38] — Explanation of conspiracy charges and legal ramifications
• [36:51] — Patel reflects on lessons learned and the importance of mission-oriented service
• [38:53] — Defines the “deep state” and offers prescription: better personnel choices
• [40:06] — Breakdown of the personal defamation campaign against Patel

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a detailed, candid, and at times impassioned look inside the Republican effort to challenge the narrative and mechanics of the Trump-Russia investigation, as told by one of its principal investigators. It outlines how investigative and legal strategies unfolded, reflects skepticism about high-level government accountability, and highlights ongoing political, legal, and cultural battles over media truth-telling and bureaucratic influence. Patel’s tone throughout is analytical, assertive, and optimistic about future prosecutions, while Kirk steers the conversation to the broader implications for American government and political culture.

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For further reading and legal details:

• FightWithKash.com
• Publicly available IG report summaries and House Intel depositions referenced in the episode.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everybody. Today on the Charlie Kirk show, my interview with Kash Patel, who is the man that revealed and unveiled the Russia scam. It's an in depth and detailed conversation and quite honestly, one of my favorite conversations I've had recently with an exceedingly smart individual and patriotic person. And we go through step by step of the Russian investigation. If you've never heard of the Russian investigation before, you've probably heard of it, but you might not have cared. This podcast is for you. If you need a little brushing up on who all the characters were, James Comey, Andrew McCabe, this podcast is for you. And if you think you know it all, you know all the characters and in fact you have a big board of all of it and the strings tied together. This podcast distill for you because new information is shared of someone who is on the ground floor. Dealt with Andrew McCabe. Dealt with James Comey understood what we were up against and he makes some pretty bold predictions. This podcast is an optimistic one. Kash Patel thinks people are going to jail and he explains why. If you want to support our program, you could do [e-mail] support that's charliekirk.com support to become a partner to allow us to continue to grow, to flourish, to succeed, and to hopefully. Our goal is to reach millions of young people every single month. When you support us, do you allow us to hire more staff? You allow us to do two podcasts a day and to continue our production at charliekirk.com support if you want to get involved with Turning Point USA, you can do so at tpusa.com that's tpusa.com where we play offense with a sense of urgency to win the American culture war. If you are a high school student, start a high school chapter. If you are a college student, start a college [e-mail] Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

[B]

Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

[A]

I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives. And we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Hey, everybody. This episode is brought to you by my [e-mail] Charlie Secure your device. Anonymize your online activity. Protect your action online. Expressvpn.com Charlie help our show out by also helping yourself. Protect yourself. ExpressVPN.com Charlie hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show. With us today is Kash Patel. I think I've met him a couple times, but my goodness, everyone I respect speaks so favorably about this man and what he did for our country. And I just think so many things were happening at once, and then the virus happened. We never really had a chance to sit down and talk. But, Cash, welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.

[B]

Charlie, thanks so much for having me on. You got an amazing show and an amazing following, and I'm really looking forward to chatting.

[A]

Well, thank you, and so I appreciate that. I want to dive into a couple things. I first want to make sure I plug this website because Cash is currently being targeted by the Democrats. And I know Cash has to be careful the way he describes it, but he can say it however he wants. But I'll say it how I want to, because he was so effective in fighting for the president and quite honestly, figuring out what was happening behind this entire Russia hoax that they're doing everything they can to try and issue subpoenas and what have you against Cash. Cash. Do you want to talk just a second about that so we can talk about the website? We'll reference it throughout the discussion.

[B]

No, I appreciate that. And look, long story short, as you know, Charlie, I was lead investigator for Chairman Nunes on the Russiagate investigation, where we showed the world that the DNC and the Hillary Clinton paid for the dossier. And worse than that, the FBI and DOJ lied to federal courts so they could spy on President Trump. But exposing that, I thought, would be the service you signed up for when you sign up to serve. But the media had, I guess, a different avenue in mind, and basically, they started coming after me. So, long story short, the personal attacks got very personal. Then they just got straight up defamatory. So I sued Politico, the New York Times, and CNN for defamation.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And we're in the middle of those lawsuits now. But I was. And, you know, you want to clear your name, and so does Chairman Nunes wants to clear his name. But I was traveling with Chairman Nunes on his Freedom tour this year, and so many citizens came up to us and said, we've been defamed. We've been platformed by big tech. We don't have the means to do it. We don't know the lawyers to call to get into court. So I started fightwithcash.com with a K. And basically I said, look, let me use my name for bad or worse to help raise money. I'm going to pay for your lawyers. You need a day in court just like I do. It shouldn't be denied to anybody because you don't have the funds to do it or don't know the rights lawyers. So anyone that was defamed or deplatformed, you can check it out on fightwithcash.com we're raising money. You send us a note, we review your case. We've got half a dozen cases we're already reviewing. And if the lawyers say it's a go, we'll file a lawsuit for you and pay for it.

[A]

It's about time we start to play offense. So let's get. Let's just start there. So you were. You worked for Devin Nunez, who was basically a lone ranger. House Republican leadership at the time wanted nothing to do with this. In fact, Paul Ryan and the Republicans were the ones that were pushing for Bob Mueller's appointment. And we're kind of believing all of this Russia nonsense just kind of go back in time and remind us of the timeline and the drama and the intrigue that led up to what you and Devin were able to discover while you were. While you were working for him.

[B]

Yeah. Let me see if I could stage this right. So I'm not gonna use any political party affiliations just to sort of display the magnitude of what I think happened. Picture. In 2016, the United States presidential election is going on, and one presidential campaign unlawfully and impermissibly obtains false information from people overseas. And they take that information, knowing it to be false, and stuff it through the media and the left and the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department of Justice just to get fraudulent search warrants on their opponent, a President for the United States of America. And that's what they did. And I think it would have gotten a lot more attention if it was the Republican campaign doing it to the Democrats. But since it was the Hillary Clinton campaign who paid tens of millions of dollars through their lawyers to funnel and hide it, then they had their lawyers go to the FBI and DOJ and other agencies to say, we've got great dirt. We paid this guy, Christopher Steele, and these other actors. We're going to plant these false narratives in the media. Then we're going to go to the FISA court. And for those that don't know it, it's basically the Most secret court, we have to conduct the most surreptitious surveillance that we can conduct. And I use that all the time when I was a national security prosecutor. It's a righteous court. But when you commit a fraud on that court just to surveil a presidential campaign like they did against President Trump, that's the crux of what we're talking about. And we, you know, fortunately, we had a great leader and Chairman Nunes, and I was fortunate to spearhead that team and follow the money and basically show that Hillary paid for it. And then if that weren't bad enough, we were able to show the perpetrators, the crooks like The Comeys, the McCabes, Peter Strocks of the world perpetrated a fraud on a federal judge just so they can listen in on a presidential election campaign and later president, if you believe it.

[A]

So let me ask you a question that you might have received before, but I've never heard answered. Do you think they think this was all worth it? And that's an interesting question. Yeah. So tell me why.

[B]

Yeah. So if you. And we work to unearth a lot of these text messages for some of your viewers that might not be familiar with it. Peter Strzok, Lisa Page having an affair, running the FBI investigation into President Trump, lead lawyer, lead agent, it's almost something you can't even fictionalize. But this is what's happening. And these guys are sending countless messages during the election cycle in 2016 saying they are going to stop President Trump from becoming president. That's their own words, not mine, in text now available that Devin Nunes and I were able to put out and declassify. So they thought we're saving America because they think that a duly elected president shouldn't become president. And they think they know better. And that's how bad it was. And I think you've seen it. But a great summary of it for your viewers is the movie, the plot against the President. It's a really visually stimulating film that summarizes in 90 minutes everything chairman Nunes and I and we took on and folks like you took on. It's a great film.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, sure. So look, these investigations and as a former federal prosecutor who did national security cases, you know, these things take time. You have to get approvals from down below in the bowels of the Justice Department through the attorney General. If you're going to go surveil someone of this magnitude, and that's for your younger viewers, a search warrant. A search warrant. If you're looking at, if you're looking at a bank robber or suspected murderer, you have to go before a federal judge and you got to say, judge, I think this guy committed this crime. We need to go and look at his bank records, his telephone records, his emails, his phone calls. Because we think he killed somebody or because we think he robbed the bank. And if there's probable cause, the judge grants it. Same thing in this instance. It's just a different federal court that deals with spying. And basically what the Hillary Clinton campaign did was they spent tens of millions of dollars to collect false information from this guy, Christopher Steele, who used to be a British intelligence asset, if you can believe it, later turned FBI informant. I mean, you can't even make this stuff up.

[A]

Let me ask, I never understood this. Where the heck did those tens of millions, how on earth did they spend tens of millions of dollars? I've never, never understood that.

[B]

Sure. So one of the neat things that we were able to do on House intel, even though Paul Ryan didn't want us to do it, was subpoena the bank records for this company called Fusion GPS and Glenn Simpson. And they were funneling the money through Perkins Coie, which is the Democratic law firm. That's what they do. Their job is to be the representatives for the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign. So those guys get paid tens of millions of dollars, money goes into the law firm, the law firm then cuts checks to Fusion GPS for millions of dollars, and they go and hire media representatives, Christopher Steele, to start putting on false smear campaigns against President Trump. So they're working the intelligence apparatus in one lane and the media apparatus in another to take on a presidentially elect, a presidential candidate. Excuse me. And later a president.

[A]

So continue on. You said that they gave tens of millions of dollars. I interrupted you. So just continue through the line of the story.

[B]

Yeah, so basically you would think for your viewers, you know, this happens in banana republics, not in America, not in 2016, not in 2020. But they take the money that people go out and campaign so hard for to elect a president. Instead of saying, putting out signs, getting out the word to vote, securing, voting, and things like that, they're saying, no, no, no, let's call the media and let's seed stories in the media that we know, we, the FBI, Fusion GPS and Christopher Steele and DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign know are bogus. But it's candidate Trump then, so they're likely to go with it. Cuz the media hated him before he was elected. And then while we're taking him out in the media, we're gonna secretly go and have our lead lawyer and we'll talk about this. Sussman, go to the FBI's lead lawyer and say, I'm just being a Good Samaritan. I was paid tens of millions of dollars by the Hillary Clinton campaign to collect all this information. I think you should have a look. And then that lawyer takes it and executes a search warrant against President Trump's campaign.

[A]

The FBI.

[B]

That's how bad of it.

[A]

But didn't the FBI have to go through a FISA court?

[B]

Yeah, you're spot on. I cut out a few steps. So what happens there is, with any search warrant, especially when you're talking about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance act, which is a FISA search warrant, the information has to come in, and I've done this, and it's reams of material. You have to get probably 20 different approvals before you can even walk into the FISA court. The to say to a judge, hey, I need probable. I have probable cause. I need a very invasive search warrant against then candidate Trump's campaign. And so the FBI lawyer takes it, gives it to his agents, gives it to the Director of the FBI, James Comey. He signs it. He's got to walk it over to the doj. The Attorney General himself has to sign that warrant. So the Democratically elected president's Attorney General is signing off on a search warrant for their opponent's campaign. Then they go to the Fisk. And it would be one thing, Charlie,

[A]

that was Loretta lynch at the time, right?

[B]

Yeah, you're spot on. It was Loretta Lynch. And it would be one thing, Charlie, if there was criminal conduct afoot. As a former prosecutor, I can understand that that's what you would want to do. What they did, though, what comey did, what McCabe did, and what the DOJ did, was falsely mislead a FISA court. And we've now proven that in the Nunes memo. It's in the movie plot against the President, and it's in the documents we've released. Since they knew that information was bogus, they said, no one's gonna catch us. We're gonna go up on a surveillance warrant anyway.

[A]

And so they went through that process, and so they spied on Trump and more specifically on his campaign, which is where Carter Page comes in, right?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And so, basically, look at it this way. When we were doing gangs prosecutions or criminal conspiracies, you target the weakest link. You target the guy that you can get a search warrant on, because once you have that search warrant, in this case, Carter Page, you can listen to everybody he's talking to. You can get all the emails that he's sending to Them and they're sending to him. So you don't necessarily have to be the number one target.

[A]

But these search warrants are different because you're not giving notification to the searched. Correct, Right. Which is an unusual type of warrant.

[B]

Oh, it's very invasive. It's very different. That's why it goes through a different approval process within the FBI and doj, because it's so invasive that we're. Basically, what I used them for was to go up and spy on terrorists that we were trying to either take out or arrest. That's the purpose of this tool. And they used it on a presidential campaign. So just to give you a little side by side of what they were doing with that. And here's the other thing. They didn't just do it once. They did it four times into President Trump being president. That means his own Attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, at the time signed off on a warrant to spy on that president, even though the information was bogus.

[A]

And that's when Jeff Sessions recused himself or whatever. Right. He was just unwilling or unable to get involved at all in that. So where did it go wrong for them? Where did this start to fall apart? Because I can't imagine. So they. I'm just starting to understand kind of what their thought process was. They spied on Trump and Carter Page. The intelligence apparatus started to get all this information at some point, were they like, there's really nothing here? Are we too exposed? Where did all of a sudden their criminal conspiracy start to fall apart?

[B]

Well, enter Chairman Nunes. Right? And the leader of the investigation into Russiagate, or the Russian act of measures. Right. And he brought me on then to investigate this stuff with my background as an investigator and in the intelligence community. And I said to Devin at the time, I said, look, we gotta do two things. You follow the money, so let's get bank records. Somebody's paying for this stuff. And the other thing with search warrants, I said, you don't have to be a lawyer to figure this out. If they have an informant, go get the informant files and see if that guy's credible. How much is he getting paid?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Did he lie? Does he know the candidate? Does he know President Trump? Does he hate him? All that information is stored somewhere. So we started to attack those avenues together. The money, which we now know, where it came from, and the credibility of Christopher Steele.

[A]

So let me ask you, though, and I just don't remember, what was the impetus for Devin to start caring about this, though? Did someone. Was there a whistleblower in the FBI, were we starting to get suspicion? I don't quite remember that.

[B]

Yeah, sure. So if you around. If you remember when the Steele dossier first was leaked by the media in January of 17.

[A]

Yes. By Buzzfeed or whatever.

[B]

Right. Buzzfeed or something. That coupled with the. In December of the. Of the classified leaks of the Mike Flynn phone calls. Right.

[A]

Yes. With the Russian ambassador. Sure.

[B]

Exactly. So those two events together caused a Republican led Congress. At the time. The Republicans had the majority and they said we need to do an investigation into the unlawful unmaskings. And also this Steele dossier stuff. It started to come together and that's when it was basically okay. In the spring of 17, they said, we're going to launch an investigation. You guys need to create a team to do so. And Devin was charged with that since he was the chair of House Intel. So there was a lot of intelligent stuff and it seemed to be a good fit to go there.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, and I would go one step further. It's not even potentially it happened. Look, we took 60 depositions under chairman Nunes, under oath. They're all public now. Adam Schiff didn't want them out, but Rick Grinnell and I declassified them two years later and we put them out. They're online. You can read the Sussman deposition that I took that's cited in the Durham indictment that says he was talking to members of the media at the behest of a client. The client being the DNC Fusion gps, doing the same thing, taking the same false dirt and going to media and saying, you guys got to put this story out. And then here's the kicker. Hillary Clinton and Jake Sullivan come in and tweet out information as if they've never heard of it before and say, look, President Trump has a secret back channel to Russia, if you remember this stuff in the fall of 16. And they were the ones paying for it. They were the ones pretending to know nothing about it. And then they had a willing media.

[A]

This is the stuff that mobs do. Literally. I mean, this is, this is a mob cake. It really is. So let's now get to the present day that kind of sets the table. You have been one of the few people that has have been bullish. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong on Durham and kind of how this is proceeding. Talk about the indictment of Sussman and what you think that might lead to.

[B]

Yeah, and let me just set the table real quick. When I was running large scale conspiracies or prosecutions, Charlie, these are cases that took me two, three, four years to conduct and to get to an indictment because that's just the amount of work that it takes. Durham's on basically year two and he's already issued two indictments. I know that might not seem like a lot for people who aren't familiar with the criminal justice system, but that's moving pretty quickly for doj. Not to mention this is the biggest political scandal in US history. So he's taken his time. Now turning to the Sussman indictment. Sussman was the lawyer for the Hillary Clinton campaign and the dnc. What Durham alleges in his indictment is that Michael Sussman lied to the FBI. And usually that's a pretty short indictment. That's a two to three pager. I used to do them all the time. He wrote a 27 page indictment and as you said, basically laying out a mob conspiracy. He went so far as to put all this information in the public view because I believe it's what I would have done. He knows there's more individuals involved in this conspiracy. Michael Sussman wasn't the only player.

[A]

So do you think this is Durham going after the bag man to possibly get to somebody else? Is this part of the strategy?

[B]

Yeah, you don't even have to be a lawyer to figure that one out for all your viewers. Like you go after the easy target, you go after the case you can make. And then when that guy's facing a federal prison sentence of five years, he's probably gonna flip and say, I don't wanna go to jail. Not for anybody, not for Hillary Clinton or anyone. I got a family, I'm not going to prison. And that guy starts turning information against, as we say, you flip up, you get to the bigger fish by going up the ladder. And I think that's what Durham is building here. Cuz he identified eight people, not by name in the indictment, but I can tell you who they are in that indictment because he wants the world to know Michael Sussman worked with all these people, got paid by all these people and was, was dishonest to the FBI. That's the kicker. And the deposition he cites in the Sussman indictment is the one I took of Michael Sussman in 2017 personally.

[A]

So what do you mean he identified eight people? Were they redacted or what do you mean?

[B]

Yeah, so if you look at the indictment, the practice is you don't put people's name in there if they're not charged. So it's like researcher number one, media company number two.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Things like that, generic labels, lawyer number two. And I can tell you what I believe. Lawyer number two is Marc Elias, I believe Sussman's partner at the law firm who ran the entire dnc, Hillary Clinton campaign stuff. Media company is, I believe, Fusion GPS Glenn Simpson's operation that funneled this nonsense by getting paid from the DNC to the media. And Then the research companies are less important. But what is important is what they say in the indictment. And this is what the guys who did the research said. They said our information that you want us to say is true. We don't think it's true. And if you say it, you're basically committing a fraud. That's how bad it is.

[A]

That's so helpful. I see this in two different categories. I see this as the Hillary Clinton world, the Sussman. And I don't know what to expect out of that. I would hope to see Glenn, Simpson, all them, held accountable. But the one that terrifies me more, that I am very pessimistic, is the abuse of government power. Is Strzok Page, Comey, is there anything in the indictment to show that Durham is also focused on federal agents that broke the law?

[B]

I think so. And because he cites James Baker so extensively, Remember, there's, I don't know, 50, 100,000 people who work for the FBI. Right. James Baker isn't all lawyer in the FBI. He's the lawyer. He's the number one guy. And Michael Sussman, if you and I tried to get an appointment with the FBI's general counsel, they'd laugh us out of the building and probably take seven years just to try to get a call back. This guy put in one phone call to his buddy and walked right into the building and then pretended to be a Good Samaritan, said, I'm not here on behalf of any client. I'm just here because I've got these reports on Trump Russia servers. Please do something with them. When I questioned him four years ago, he admitted he was working at the behest of a client. And what Durham did brilliantly was identify the payment records, which show repeatedly Michael Sussman was doing that research for the Clinton campaign, which is where he got in trouble in the allegations in the indictment.

[A]

So. But. Yeah, go ahead. No, please.

[B]

Sorry. No. To your point about Strzok and Page and McCabe and Comey, I agree. What ticks America off more than anyone is the lack of accountability for those who think the government exists to serve them. And that's these people. And I do think he's going after them because of the way the indictments laid out. Sussman couldn't do this alone. Baker couldn't do this alone. And the only people that were involved in this investigation at that level were the ones you cited. Comey, McCabe, Strzok Page and company big

[A]

tech is monitoring, censoring and mining and selling your online information. SquadPod is the solution. 100% US programmed, owned and operated. SquadPod is a convenient all in one app supporting your private connection with others of your choice. Safely bring together your friends, family, team, club, business or congregation. With SquadPod's chat, document sharing, discussion and tele video capabilities. The SquadPod app is encrypted, protecting your communication and content without any of the annoying advertisements. They do not censor mine, profile or sell your information. I have gotten to know the SquadPod team really well. I'm telling you, they're true patriots with a mission dedicated to your privacy, safety and freedom of speech. Join myself and organizations such as Turning Point USA, nonprofits and churches by adopting SquadPod as your collaboration platform. Take back your control of your privacy by visiting squadpod.com charlie that's squadpod.com charlie and so here's I suppose this is up for Durham to figure out, but at some point there had to be a back channel, a wink and her nod or somewhere, something. It could have been Sussman. Where this plan was hatched, where no one was taken by surprise by this, where the FBI knew that this was incoming, that this dossier was being created and concocted, that they were gonna bring it in front of a judge, the FISA court judge. There was like a triangulation which would mean, based on what you're saying, a private, public, private government collusion the likes of which I can't even think of an example of this. I mean, there isn't one that where you have private. And by the way, it's what a perfect picture of where the country actually is, where you have private Goldman Sachs getting whatever they want from the Treasury Department. Right? I mean, it's a perfect example of like, of where we are as a country.

[B]

No, I think you're spot on. And look, your assessment is actually, you've said it better than I think I ever have before, so I might steal some of your, some of your lingo going forward, but you're right. The United States government teamed up with a political party and the mainstream media not only to peddle a false narrative, but to take down a presidential candidate. Can you imagine? Just hit pause on that for a second. And they and the candidate and the political campaign paid the US Government to do so. It's insane. It's not even a mob indictment. It's like if you wanted to rewrite the Departed to be this movie, you couldn't do it because it's so insane.

[A]

No, it would be not just indicting the mob. It's Also indicting the police commissioner and the local bureau chief and like everyone who's in charge. Right. This is literally. Yeah, I don't. They'd have to just. I don't know if there's. I'm sure there's criminal code that deals with this. So talk about how. And this is where my frustration is, right? Where I have to. I walk through our production room every so often and they have CNN because they are gluttons for punishment on mute. And Andrew McCabe is on every so often running his mouth. Who. Of all the people I think who. I just really believe he was in on it, it would be Andrew McCabe. Talk about the person of Andrew McCabe. Talk about how he squeaked out of this so far cleanly. He's now a lecturer at some school, isn't he, Connor? He's a lecturer at Georgetown or something, whatever. Talk about McCabe and how he was probably involved in this.

[B]

Man, I wish we had you on the Nunes team because you're saying everything I was saying and people were like, cash, you're crazy. And remember, I knew Andy McCabe from my DOJ days and when I called

[A]

him out, see it in his eyes, man. Sorry, go ahead.

[B]

No, when I called him out back then about masterminding this thing, remember, this is the guy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And again, the text messages are public. They hatched an insurance policy. Strock and Page, Lisa Page an insurance policy in Annie McCabe's office to prevent then candidate Trump from winning. This is the deputy director of the FBI and company hatching a plan to stop a presidential candidate not because of good information, but because of bogus information. So I agree, I'm as ticked off as you are as Andy McCabe is. But here's the thing. If your viewers read nothing else and they don't want to rely on our report from, or the Nunes memo or any of that stuff, read the summary of the IG report. The inspector general came in after we uncovered all of this information and said, okay, I'm going to interview Andy McCabe. And the inspector general came in and said, Andy McCabe lied to the U.S. government during his investigation about his involvement with Russiagate. That's what the independent inspector general said. Not the Democrats, not the Republicans, but him. And Andy McCabe's deposition is available for everyone to read. So I do hope that Durham's targeting him, but I understand why the evidence is going to be very tough to get him because he's not stupid. But he got caught once lying, so his credibility for Me is already shot and hopefully they're catching him.

[A]

Well, if you're on the left and you lie under oath, you just kind of get away with it. Procedural crimes, process crimes. On our side, they go after it harshly. And so then we have James Comey, who he illegally leaked information to the press, if I'm not mistaken, or at least unethically. I don't know if it actually broke the law. I think it did. But you could tell me and is Comey gonna get looped into this or. That would be rather extraordinary if Durham did that and I think rather unlikely.

[B]

Yeah, unfortunately, I gotta agree with you on that one. I don't know that you know, and Comey, as long as I've known him, and this is the one thing people have to understand. He. And I hate to admit it, but he's one of the smartest guys around. He's no dummy and he's very politically savvy and he has the biggest ego on planet Earth. So he's not gonna leave a trail where you can find his breadcrumbs to connect to the Russiagate scandal. And he's already tried to distance himself from his deputy McCabe and Lisa Page and Peter Strzok and all those guys. But you're right, I believe on the memos, if you remember the Comey memos, the four memos he leaked himself, which I believe contained classified information, he can be brought up on charges for that.

[A]

Won't happen.

[B]

I agree with you, but it won't happen.

[A]

It won't happen. So, and then you have Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, the lovers. Peter Strzok was allegedly the best spy catcher or whatever. You know, they had this ridiculous bio for him and so not. We have all their text messages thanks to you and your hard work. Are they a potential or are they also in the untouchable class?

[B]

No, they're definitely a potential. And here's what I'll tell you. If I were their lawyers, what I would be doing is have. I would have been cooperating with the Durham investigation for the last 18 months if I was those two. If I was Lisa Page and Peter Strzok, that would be the smart play. And I think, I believe they actually are because of the information Durham released in this indictment.

[A]

So that potentially they are actively helping for some sort of a deal or whatever to try and give a carve out for them to not go to jail.

[B]

Exactly, that's what I believe. And they might not get. If they successfully cooperate, then they don't get dinged as Hard, but it's a trade off. Do you want to get the other guys or do you want to stop, you know, at the roadside?

[A]

Well, a conspiracy charge is interesting though, Cash. So I wanna ask you about this, and this is the obvious question that everyone's thinking, and I'm somewhat cynical on this, but it's worth asking. If Durham lays it out correctly and properly, a conspiracy charge, you can use, you know the criminal statute better than I can. I do. But they could loop in the top levels of the campaign then as well, is that correct?

[B]

Absolutely. They could loop in anybody. They can loop them in as an unindicted co conspirator. Co conspirator. Just say, hey, we don't have enough information to bring you to court, but we've got enough to allege that we think you did bad stuff. Then you could also bring in the actual conspirators that you can prove and cite and name those guys. That's when it gets really interesting. So that's the key to this indictment, the Sussman indictment. It's basically a conspiracy layout. He's laid out eight different players, major players in this indictment, and he hasn't charged a conspiracy yet. He's setting the table to do so, I believe. And so that's why I think this indictment is truly important. And the people you're talking about, I know, were involved in this conspiracy to commit fraud on a FISA court and wrongfully go up on a presidential candidate. And I think Durbin's hip to that.

[A]

Well, I think that there's people that wanna say, is Obama gonna loop in Hillary? Very unlikely, right?

[B]

No, that's. Don't waste your time. That's, you know, that's a pipe dream. We're not gonna get there.

[A]

So, yeah, in the couple minutes we have remaining, what are the biggest things you've personally learned throughout this entire process? About our government? About process or just lessons for life? Cuz you have. I mean, you've been battle hardened by this.

[B]

So look, I was fortunate to go on into the Trump administration. I ran counterterrorism for him. I was one of his top intelligence community officers. And then I finished off at Chief of Staff at dod running the Department of Defense forum. And here's what I learned for President Trump and for the people that he installed. For the most part, the mission mattered more than anything else. We didn't care about our name, we didn't care what the media said about us. We cared about what the President was elected to do. And if you really wanna serve I know I can at least call out 12 guys and gals that I served with that served the President the way he should have been served. They ended the forever wars, they protected our border, they got us a great economy, they got us a COVID vaccine in six months. Mind you, polio took seven years and we distributed it to the US and the world. Those are just a few examples. But it doesn't matter how right you are if you work for President Trump. That's the thing I learned the most. The media doesn't care and Afghanistan is the. And I know we don't have time to talk about it, but it's the prime example. We had a conditions based withdrawal that I executed under President Trump where we lost zero service members. Zero. Biden comes in and his national security apparatus says we're going to do the opposite because Trump did it. It didn't matter if it seceded. Not only did we lose 13 service members and 13 caskets came home with American flags on them, but they took a drone strike and killed seven children in Afghanistan and they hid that from the United States. And that's the thing that I think ticks off America the most. And that's the thing that I learned the most, that unfortunately there are still people out there who, like Millie and Austin and Blinken, who will politicize the national security apparatus of the United States. And that's the one thing we never did under President Trump. We never did it. We put the mission first.

[A]

I want to ask you about our government. People ask me all the time about the deep state. And we've been talking about it pretty clearly. We haven't identified it. How real is it and what could potentially be done in future administrations to actually put a check and balance on the fourth branch of government?

[B]

Yeah. So look, I've been in government. I was in government for 16 years. The overwhelming majority of people who sign up to serve are great, but there's always gonna be a bad few. When you have millions of people working for the US government, it's just too big of a group. Right. So how do you fix it? How do you address it? Simple personnel. You gotta get the personnel right. And I don't just mean the cabinet secretaries. I'm not just talking sec, state, secdef and all that. Your undersecretaries, your deputies, your chiefs of staff. And look, Charlie, you know this as well as I do. We have that bench. We just didn't identify him and put him in place in 2016.

[A]

Yeah, there was a big problem with the blue Book and Chris Christie. The whole thing was a mess. It was a circus. But, yeah, it was.

[B]

So that's how you fix it. It's doable. And hopefully in 2024, you and I are going in to go after and fix it.

[A]

I'll be cheering you on from afar. I'll be nicely hosting radio from Phoenix. And you can make personnel is policy, as the great Morton Blackwell would say many times, which is true. Who you have in these positions really matter. So, Cash, you mentioned it earlier, and I'm sure our audience is impressed with how you've laid all this out. Just be specific on how the media lied about you and how you're fighting back with fightwithcash.com sure.

[B]

So Crux of the matter is, and you can read all about it in depth on the website, but they basically called me and the pleadings are public in all these cases. So you got everybody can see them. They basically call me Trump's Ukraine whisperer. Like, I was secretly meeting with President Trump and telling him stuff about the Ukraine. It's hilarious because it never happened. And the people that said they saw me doing this admitted in public to saying they'd never met me. And I've never had anything to do with the Ukraine in my life. I was a counterterrorism guy for the president, chasing around terrorists, killing Baghdadi and things like that and bringing home American hostages. I probably, at that time, couldn't put Ukraine on a map. No offense. It wasn't my area of focus. And that was it. And I said, enough's enough. You guys just injected me into an international impeachment hoax, and it's totally false. So I'm fighting back. And that gained traction. And now I'm fighting back for everybody else who was. Who was hit falsely and deplatformed and, you know, join the fight. We'd love to.

[A]

How are your cases going?

[B]

Good. I've got three filed and served and in pleadings are served, and Covid slowed them down a little bit, but we've got court dates coming up for all three, so we'll keep you posted and we'll put up updates on our website, too.

[A]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to settle sometime very soon. And they try to.

[B]

They can try, but it ain't happening.

[A]

Yeah, they got plenty of resources, that's for sure. It's fightwithcash.com cash, you're doing amazing work. A lot of people on the other side can't stand the fact that you won't let up, which is exactly why you have a perpetual invite here on this program to come back anytime you need it. So I really enjoyed this and I hope that conspiracy charge comes very soon against all these criminals that did this against our country.

[B]

Thanks so much, Charlie. And I'll come back and talk to you when it pops from Durham.

[A]

You bet, Keshe. All right, thanks so much. Talk to you soon. Thanks so much for listening everybody. Email us your thoughts freedomarliekirk.com and if you want to support us, go to charliekirk.com support thank you so much for listening everybody. God bless.

[B]

For more on many of these stories and news you can Trust, go to charliekirk.com.