Debates From the Archive - Charlie on Abortion

Summary

The Charlie Kirk Show
Episode: Debates From the Archive - Charlie on Abortion
Date: November 8, 2025

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Overview

This episode features a series of live audience debates centered around abortion, human rights, the role of faith in policymaking, and adjacent issues such as birth control and church-state separation. Host Charlie Kirk engages with attendees and critics on the foundational values that underpin his pro-life and broader conservative stances, addressing challenging scenarios (rape, incest, medical complications) and the philosophical, moral, and legal implications of abortion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Charlie's Core Pro-Life Argument

• Human Rights Consistency: Kirk asserts that human rights are not contingent upon how someone is conceived.

  "Human rights don't stop based on the method of how they're conceived."
  — Charlie Kirk (01:59)

• Value of Life Regardless of Circumstance:
  Kirk uses hypotheticals to emphasize that individuals conceived via rape or incest possess equal rights.

  "Do they get less human rights because they were conceived in rape?"
  — Charlie Kirk (02:33)

• Ultrasound Thought Experiment:

  "I have an ultrasound here and an ultrasound here. The first ultrasound is a loving couple...the other...from rape. Which one is which? You can't tell the difference because they're both human and they both deserve human rights."
  — Charlie Kirk (03:18)

• Scope of Exceptions:
  Kirk holds that abortion should only be considered if multiple doctors verify an absolute medical necessity.

2. Challenge Scenarios: Rape, Incest, and Medical Exceptions

• Personalization:
  When asked about his own family facing such trauma, Kirk sticks to his principles:

  "Our family...believe[s] that under no circumstances, unless absolutely vet by multiple doctors, medical necessary, would abortion ever happen."
  — Charlie Kirk (04:24)

• Audience Concerns: Audience members struggle with reconciling the pro-life position with the realities of trauma and bodily autonomy but Kirk maintains the focus on consistency and the unborn's rights.

3. Clarifying Bodily Autonomy and Moral Language

• On Bodily Autonomy:

  "We're not stripping anybody of their bodily autonomy because that baby has bodily autonomy."
  — Charlie Kirk (12:41)

• Mother vs. Fetus:

  "It's attached to, it's not part of [the woman]. So there's an umbilical cord that attaches one being to another...You are not your mother nor your father."
  — Charlie Kirk (13:18)

• Development & Independence:
  Kirk interrogates distinctions drawn between fetuses and born children, challenging the logic of survival outside the womb as a human rights threshold.

  "My daughter still can't hunt or gather... can't survive without either of us."
  — Charlie Kirk (17:03)

  "A five year old is not fully grown or developed...Brains do not fully develop till 25 years old."
  — Charlie Kirk (18:38)

4. Later-Term Abortion and Moral Consistency

• Statistics and Legal Framework:

  "About 30,000 [late-term abortions] a year actually...it's legal in six states across the country."
  — Charlie Kirk (19:25)

• Sex-selective and Disability Abortions:

  "Do you think that it should be legal if...we say we don't want a girl. Should I be able to terminate that baby? It's called sex selective abortion. Should that?"
  — Charlie Kirk (22:36) "I find out that my baby has down syndrome, shall be able to terminate the baby."
  — Charlie Kirk (23:23)

  • Kirk draws a direct moral analogy to eugenics and Nazi Germany, a highly charged comparison:

    "You have no different moral philosophy than Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Hitler...When you dehumanize a population, it's easy to murder them."
    — Charlie Kirk (23:37)

5. Science, Faith, and Reason

• Faith’s Role in Opinion Formation:
  Kirk acknowledges his Christian foundation but insists his public advocacy uses reason accessible to all.

  "I convince people with reason. So I never use scripture to someone who doesn't share my view as a reason as to why they should believe what I believe."
  — Charlie Kirk (10:35)

• Universal Moral Standards:
  Kirk posits that the American moral tradition is Judeo-Christian, providing the framework for laws and rights.

  "You need an agreed upon moral dimension. In America we have a Judeo Christian, largely Christian moral dimension that has built the West."
  — Charlie Kirk (11:47)

6. The Church, Morality, and The State

• Separation of Church and State:
  Kirk argues that the concept as popularly understood is not constitutional, tracing its origin to a letter from Jefferson and contending that Christian values organically shaped American law.

  "It's a single letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote...assuring them that the government would not come after them."
  — Charlie Kirk (25:03) "Our laws, our customs and traditions are built on Judeo Christian norms, specifically the Ten Commandments."
  — Charlie Kirk (25:08)

7. On Birth Control

• Distinctions in Mechanism:
  Kirk explains that hormonal birth control generally prevents implantation, not the termination of an attached embryo, and openly takes a less dogmatic position, urging women to educate themselves about potential side effects.

  "It's not technically classified an abortifacient...just because you're taking hormonal birth control does not mean that you're necessarily enacting an abortion."
  — Charlie Kirk (06:54)

8. Morality, Community, and Societal Decline

• The Role of Christianity in Society:

  "Of course [Christianity is the best thing for a country to follow]...a Christian society, of course, is the best society."
  — Charlie Kirk (25:48)

• Secular Decline:

  "Why do you think we're the most depressed, suicidal, alcohol addicted, drug addicted, aimless country generation and country in the Western world? It's largely because we're very, very secular."
  — Charlie Kirk (25:48)

• On Guilt and Narcissism:

  "We don't have a guilt problem in this country. No way. Yeah, we have a narcissism problem."
  — Charlie Kirk (27:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Abortion After Rape:

  "But if I were to tell you, as a thought experiment, somebody in this audience was conceived in rape. Who is it?...Do they get less human rights because they were conceived in rape?"
  — Charlie Kirk (02:27)

• On Bodily Autonomy:

  "We're not stripping anybody of their bodily autonomy because that baby has bodily autonomy. Right. So by definition, an abortion strips that baby of bodily autonomy."
  — Charlie Kirk (12:41)

• On Sex-Selective & Down Syndrome Abortions:

  "You have no different moral philosophy than Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Hitler. Next person. It's amazing, the heartlessness of like. Oh, yeah, just discard them."
  — Charlie Kirk (23:37)

• On The Role of Christianity in Law:

  "Our laws, our customs and traditions are built on Judeo Christian norms, specifically the Ten Commandments."
  — Charlie Kirk (25:08)

• On Birth Control:

  "I just want to be very clear that just because you're taking hormonal birth control does not mean that you're necessarily enacting an abortion."
  — Charlie Kirk (06:54)

• On Faith & Reason:

  "I convince people with reason. So I never use scripture to someone who doesn't share my view as a reason as to why they should believe what I believe."
  — Charlie Kirk (10:35)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Charlie's Human Rights Consistency Argument – 01:59–03:18
• Responding to Rape/Incest Hypotheticals – 04:07–06:26
• Discussion on Birth Control as Abortifacient – 06:32–07:52
• Faith, Reason, and Moral Law in Public Policy – 10:35–12:26
• Debate on Bodily Autonomy and Born vs. Unborn Rights – 12:41–19:01
• Sex-Selective/Down Syndrome Abortion & Eugenics Analogy – 22:36–23:37
• Separation of Church and State & Ten Commandments – 24:18–25:48
• Moral Decline & Role of Guilt/Narcissism – 27:01–27:45

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Conclusion

Through rigorous debate, Charlie Kirk remains unwavering in his pro-life advocacy, prioritizing human rights for the unborn in all circumstances except verified, dire medical necessity. Rooted in Christian morals, Kirk stresses reason and scientific argumentation when addressing pluralistic audiences. The episode explores not just legal and moral questions of abortion, but the broader societal and ideological shifts pertaining to faith, community, and personal responsibility.

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For more in-depth resources or to engage with these debates directly, listeners are directed to charliekirk.com.

Transcript

[Charlie Kirk]

My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro American student organization in the country, fighting for the future of our republic. My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're gonna end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You gotta stop sending your kids to college. You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible. Go start a Point USA College chapter. Go start a Turning Point USA High School chapter. Go find out how your church can get involved. Sign up and become an activist. I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade. Most important decision I ever made in my life. And I encourage you to do the same. Here I am, Lord. Use me. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. The Charlie Kirk show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends and viewers.

[Audience Member 1]

Hello, Mr. Kirk. I'm Cody. I love what you do. I think you're an awesome person. I love that you're here today. I think everyone here should give him a round of applause for being here today. Super awesome individual. As you see, I'm wearing a MAGA hat. You probably know who I'm voting for in this election cycle, but something you preach in a lot of what you say is interpersonal wisdom and being able to come to your own decision on things which you and I very much agree on. Something I want to clarify your stance on with regards to, like abortion rights, for example, is over. It's around 75% of Americans believe that in the case of rape or incest that women should have the reproductive rights and be able to choose in what they do with a child. Which obviously is really sad with regards to those circumstances. But I wanted to know what are your thoughts on that? Should a woman who is forced into a case of rape or incest and impregnated, like unholy and like in a terrible situation, should they be forced to have the child or do you think they should have their own reproductive rights?

[Audience Member 2]

Rights?

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, yeah. My stance is really clear, is that human rights don't stop based on the method of how they're conceived. And I have to say, first and foremost, no one wishes rape upon anybody or incest. That's terrible and awful and evil and tragic and the rapists themselves should be castrated and probably given the death penalty just to give me, just to set the table on my belief. But if I were to Tell you, as a thought experiment, somebody in this audience was conceived in rape. Who is it?

[Audience Member 1]

Good question. One out of 200 people, roughly, with regards to the statistics exactly from 1/2 to 1% of those.

[Charlie Kirk]

So that means that there's a couple people in this audience that were conceived in rape. Do they get less human rights because they were conceived in rape?

[Audience Member 1]

Of course not. And where generally speaking my question lies is do it, does it lie within regards to the woman? Because I think we can both agree that a woman, it takes a lot of like a toll on their body, their body changes forever after pregnancy. And should the woman have the choice to be able to, you know, go through with an abortion in the first.

[Charlie Kirk]

Trimester, you can, you can imagine my answer. The argument you made is the best argument for why termination should potentially be an option. However, I don't believe it should be because human rights do not stop based on the method of how somebody is conceived. It is an unpopular view that I have. But I must be consistent and I'll make one of the thought experiment here and people can disagree. I have an ultrasound here and an ultrasound here. The first ultrasound is a loving couple that wanted to have the baby. The other ultrasound is from rape. Which one is which? You can't tell the difference because they're both human and they both deserve human rights. And so I would not use the language, force a woman to bring it to term. However, in the term of rape, that is probably unfortunately the right term because she did not invite that in her when the other circumstances there was a voluntary decision. But we again, you have to be consistent in the application of justice, and that includes in prenatal justice and prenatal care, which is obviously what happens when a baby is in utero. And when you apply human rights, you don't get to choose whether or not the human gets rights, whether or not how that baby actually came into the world. And so ask a follow up once you're done.

[Audience Member 1]

Okay, so something another thing you preach and grant, I've been following you for a long time, you're an awesome person, is that men should be able to shepherd and protect the women in their lives. You know, I want to ask you a kind of difficult question. If your wife unfortunately was attacked in some sort of way, incestuous or was raped, would you ask her to go through with that pregnancy?

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, I've already answered that publicly. In fact, it was even more graphic. They said my 10 year old daughter, which is, you know, more graphic. And again, this is a personal, private decision that I will say in our family we believe that under no circumstances, unless absolutely vet by multiple doctors, medical necessary, would abortion ever happen. That is our own family's values. Right. And again, God forbid that it would ever happen to a woman in my life.

[Audience Member 1]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

But again, my family's values is that when we look at a baby on the ultrasound, that is a baby that we are tasked to over, to look, look after and to grow and to shepherd. And so, yes, to be consistent, that is how we would treat it. And the alternative would be then we would do what I think is termination or murder, which I would not be able to, to live with in that circumstance. Again, these are very heavy and personal issues. And again, that's our own family personal perspective on that. Very complicated issue.

[Audience Member 1]

Yeah, no, I understand. So, yeah, where I disagree personally is with regards to I would feel I would fail as lepers protector, as a shepherd of my future girlfriend if something happened to her. And I don't know, like morally how I would feel, you know, putting another human on this earth, you know, that is, you know, part of that's not me. I understand they have human rights and I love, you know, the conception of life as much as you do, but you have that person who has all the same human rights as someone else. But they could have been conceived in a way in which that was not loving, you know, as an evangelical Christian.

[Charlie Kirk]

And again, but there, the method of how the baby is conceived is not. It's not determinative of the value or the rights that the baby gets. Right. The baby still will eventually have free speech rights, fourth Amendment rights, rights to voting. Therefore it also has a right to life. And so again, we must be equally consistent in how we apply it. And in that case, in that instant, most Americans disagree with me, that's fine. But it is still a human being. It is a life made. And again, this is where the spiritual element comes in. Is that baby made in the image of God or not? It is. And therefore if it's made in the image of God, therefore we have a moral obligation, not just a moral right to protect that baby from termination.

[Audience Member 1]

Okay, thank you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you. Appreciate your hands. Yeah, of course. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

[Audience Member 3]

I appreciate your videos. I've been watching recently about how college should be thinking about what is good, what is beautiful, things like that. I really appreciate that and I'm actually pro life and I want to ask you about your stance on that portion of that of your ideas. So specifically when talking about birth control. Some of birth control can cause Abortions, Right. With hormonal birth control. Correct?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, it can. But it's a little more nuanced than that because it doesn't technically it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall. It does not terminate a fertilized egg that's already attached to a uterine wall by preventing the release of progesterone. That's true. So yes. I just want to be clear. It's not technically classified in abortifacient. I'm not making an excuse for hormonal birth control. I just want to be very clear that just because you're taking hormonal birth control does not mean that you're necessarily enacting an abortion. Does that make sense?

[Audience Member 3]

I guess. Wouldn't that still cause that fertilized egg, that baby to die?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, it can, yes. But the distinction is also, it's important to know this. The distinction is you don't know if it has attached to the wall, if that makes sense. So you don't know if you're pregnant because you're technically not pregnant. But yes, I don't know. What is your question on hormonal?

[Audience Member 3]

Do you think hormonal birth control should. We should stop using that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because of that, I've decided to no longer have strong opinions on this topic because I got a lot of people angry. I will say this, which is very rare. Young ladies should read the peer reviewed literature by Democrats, liberals and many other people that show how, let's just say damaging hormonal birth control is to a female's brain and body. That's not my opinion. Other people should look at it. When I talk about it, I get ravaged and I understand. I actually believe in male female distinctions. So who I actually, I'll never take birth control so I should be careful kind of venturing into that lane. Right? So I think those distinctions actually matter. Everyone should make their own decision. But if you look at just the warning pamphlet that is associated when a young lady is prescribed hormonal birth control, it is, it's like, it's like a map of the world. I mean it's all it is, it is paragraph. You guys know what I'm talking about, paragraph to paragraph. And we over prescribe hormone birth control for pimples, acne, controlling your periods. I don't even, you know that. But it is way, way over prescribed in this country. And I think people need to know the downsides. And there's a huge movement that is bipartisan, but mostly mostly by conservatives that is trying to encourage Women to get off hormonal birth control.

[Audience Member 3]

And then I have one question about what you said earlier, about with evolution or like the age of the Earth, do you think that evolution could be possible with the Bible?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, potentially. I'm not. I'm. I don't believe in evolution, but I'm open to the belief that it's possible. I'm satisfied with that. And so I do. I 100% believe in adaptation. That is, that is completely viewed by the human eye and by. Evolution is a faith belief, and the faith might be correct, which means that there's a species change. We just haven't been around long enough to see that. Species change we can assume can be implied, but we have never seen or witnessed, for example, a non homo sapien becoming a homo sapien. Right. If that makes sense. But there are lots of Christians I respect that believe in God ushered evolution, that evolution is God's intent. And that is how we came here. I have no problem with that. I don't hold that belief. I believe we are designed as is, as it says in the scripture. But if you have that belief, I'm not here to tell you you're wrong.

[Audience Member 3]

You wanna sign this hat?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Great. Thank you.

[Audience Member 2]

Good job, man.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. Yes. Disagreements. Welcome. And we'll keep going.

[Audience Member 2]

Hi, Charlie. So my question for you was basically just about, like, I know that a lot of your viewpoints on social issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights are probably driven by your faith. Right. So my question to you would be, what if someone has a different faith and therefore they innately degrade like they disagree with what you believe, like what your faith says?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, it's a good question. So I believe it because of divine revelation, but I use. I convince people with reason. So I never use scripture to someone who doesn't share my view as a reason as to why they should believe what I believe. For example, I believe abortion is wrong and it's murder. I can give you a scriptural argument which will not apply to you, that everyone's made of the image of God, and I knew before you knitted in the womb. But I will give you a biological one that can be agreed upon using reason.

[Audience Member 2]

Okay, and then in the case of, like, LGBTQ issues, what would your argument be for someone who has a different perspective or a different faith?

[Audience Member 1]

What.

[Charlie Kirk]

What perspective? Which. Which in particular?

[Audience Member 2]

Any of it. Like, same sex marriage?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, I mean, I, again, I've done the same sex marriage one a lot, but I mean, how about the trans one? I mean, the trans one's Pretty easy, right? I mean, we just went through that using reason and science and rationality, saying that what is the, what is the being? What is the purpose of the being? What does it exist to be? What is it biologically? And so all, everything I believe is supported and rooted and foundational in Scripture. But I can defend using reason and agreed upon exterior evidence.

[Audience Member 2]

And what if my faith directly contradicts your faith?

[Charlie Kirk]

That's fine. You have to use reason too then though. For example, I mean, if you come after it and you say, you know, my faith says I'm, you know, I'm Aztec and I think that we can sacrifice kids, I say that's wrong. So tell me why you think that's right. But here's the thing, is that there is at some point you need an agreed upon moral dimension. And in America we have a Judeo Christian, largely Christian moral dimension that has built the West. Murder is wrong. You can't take people's stuff. You have individual rights, universal human equality. These things do come from a Christian viewpoint. They're not just derived out of nature. They do come from revelation. And I'm sure you believe all those things. So as long as we believe those things fundamentally and foundationally, we, we then can compare all of our issues to those things.

[Audience Member 2]

And I agree with a few of those. But on the notion of like universal equality, would you believe that you are innately treating women as equal when you're stripping them of their bodily autonomy?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yes. I mean, first of all, we're not stripping anybody of their bodily autonomy because that baby has bodily autonomy. Right. So by definition, an abortion strips that baby of bodily autonomy. So I care about the bodily autonomy of both the woman and the unborn baby that she's hosting.

[Audience Member 2]

That unborn baby is a fetus inside of the woman.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right. So a fetus literally means it's just another term for offspring or it's a stage of human development. But what do you mean by fetus? Like just because if it's small, why does it not have moral value?

[Audience Member 2]

It's a part of the woman's body that she has a constitutional right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it's attached to, it's not part of. So there's an umbilical cord that attaches one being to another. That doesn't mean that it is the, is the mother's. It is a separate DNA. Correct. So it's its own being, own fingerprints, own identity. You are not your mother nor your father. You're your own thing. And so the bodily autonomy, universal human equality means the Mother gets rights and the baby gets rights, and they're universally equal. So just because the mother is larger, more developed, happens to be stronger, does not mean she gets to terminate the baby.

[Audience Member 2]

How does forcing her to give birth then give her any autonomy when she has to go through nine months of that torture?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, again, well, it's. Yeah, it's not torture for all women. In fact, it's a blessing for a lot of people.

[Audience Member 2]

For some, yes, but what if they didn't get that choice? What if they were raped?

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, no. So, yeah, so again, I believe all babies should be protected regardless of rape or incest. But then can we agree that all abortions except rape should be outlawed?

[Audience Member 2]

No, I don't agree with that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. Yeah. So then why do you. It's funny, they always bring up the rape thing, as in it's less than 1% of all the cases. But let's. But didn't the woman then therefore make a decision to get pregnant when she had sex? So she had bodily autonomy and she decided to use her bodily autonomy to get pregnant?

[Audience Member 2]

No, because she could have been using contraception that could have failed.

[Charlie Kirk]

But. No, but she just. She decided to have sex.

[Audience Member 2]

Making the decision to have sex isn't the same as making the decision. The decision to reproduce.

[Charlie Kirk]

Wait, well, hold on. Play risky games, you get risky prizes.

[Lane Schoenberger]

This is Lane Schoenberger, chief investment officer and founding partner of Y Refi. It has been an honor and a privilege to partner with Turning Point and for Charlie to endorse us. His endorsement means the world to us and we look forward to continuing our partnership with Turning Point for years to come. Now hear Charlie, in his own words, tell you about why Refi.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm going to tell you guys about why refi.com, that is yrefy.com why refi is incredible. Private student loan debt in America totals about $300 billion. Why refi is refinancing distress or defaulted private student loans. You can finally take control of your student loan situation with a plan that works for your monthly budget. Go to yrefi.com that is whyrefi.com do you have a co borrower? Why Refi can get them released from the loan. You can skip a payment up to 12 times without penalty. It may not be available in all 50 states. Go to yrefi.com that is yrefy.com let's face it, if you have distress or default of student loans, it can be overwhelming because of privacy loan debt. So many people feel stuck. Go to yrefi.com that is yrefy.com Private student loan debt relief. Why refi.com so I guarantee you that almost every single person who gets pregnant in this country knows the price and the consequence of sex. You would agree. And so when they engage in that, they're playing in a game of which they know that there might be a consequence. So you have to take responsibility for your own orgasms.

[Audience Member 2]

And the responsibility could be to terminate that pregnancy if you cannot support it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so let's play out that, let's play out that moral argument. I have a two year old at home. If I lose my job and all of a sudden I'm bankrupt, can I terminate my two year old because I can no longer support her?

[Audience Member 2]

You should not terminate.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why should I not be allowed to?

[Audience Member 2]

You kept her, she was born. Now she's your child. And as a parent, you have responsibility.

[Charlie Kirk]

So at what point, at what point did my daughter become a human being?

[Audience Member 2]

I would say when she had the ability to survive outside of your wife's body independently.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so, but what do you mean by survive? My daughter still can't hunt or gather, still can't go grocery shopping, still can't make her own food, so she can't survive without either of us.

[Audience Member 2]

When she had the ability to breathe by herself. When she had the ability.

[Charlie Kirk]

So the doctors told us that there was a potential that my daughter might need a breathing machine. Was she born, was she not human?

[Audience Member 2]

She was born, yes. And she can, she can survive with medical aid. But say you take a fetus out at what, 10, 12 weeks, they can't survive.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, but just I want to understand this. Just because a being can't support without supportive care, does that make them not human?

[Audience Member 2]

No. But at a certain point in the pregnancy, they cannot survive. Even with that care. They cannot survive?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, but. I know, but survive, a baby will die within a couple days without nourishment and die with like almost start starving to death in 24 hours. A baby always needs external care throughout the process of development, whether it be at 10 weeks or 15 weeks, 20 weeks or 30 weeks. I'm just curious. When all of a sudden does the magic switch happen? When the baby becomes human.

[Audience Member 2]

Like I said, when it can survive independently of the body.

[Charlie Kirk]

So before not human and then after human.

[Audience Member 2]

Sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

So then before, what is it called? What species is that? I'm just. Is it a dolphin, a giraffe, a crocodile? Like what species is it? Because it's not human. You said, you said it's not human. So before that, what, what, what Species, is it?

[Audience Member 2]

I would just describe it as a human fetus. Once again, not a human, not necessarily a human, like fully grown person. Okay, but we're like just a fully developed person.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, but a five year old is not fully grown or developed. In fact, brains do not fully develop till 25 years old. So a lot of people in this audience don't have fully developed. You're still developing. So. So, but under that argument, development is a process that takes many, many decades, actually a decade and a half. So why do we apply that logic and that morality? Just because something is smaller or inconvenient, we can terminate that thing?

[Audience Member 2]

I think a good point would be to make that like a good point to make would be that once the baby is separate from the mother, like fully separate out of the body, then you can consider that baby like an independent human being.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so then abortion, okay, all the way up through the process of development, even if the baby can feel pain.

[Audience Member 2]

People don't get, they don't traditionally get abortions in the second or third.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, there's about 30,000 a year actually. And so you should know that. But that's okay in the third trimester. And it's legal in six states across the country, this state being one of them, and six states and then District of Columbia. But I just, I just want to be very clear though, and it's important that we're having this, that when a woman says, hey, I'm pregnant, I'm having a what baby? Not a fetus.

[Audience Member 2]

Because when the baby is born, it's a baby.

[Charlie Kirk]

Got it. So, but help me understand. When a woman is pregnant and she points to her stomach, she says, there's a baby here. And then another woman wants to go to abortion clinic, she says there's a fetus here. Why is it morally okay that we say that a woman can view this as a baby and that as something that's just a clump of cells, shouldn't there be an independent truth that is applicable to all beings?

[Audience Member 2]

Well, that's the thing about the pro choice argument, is that you have the choice. If you want to abort, you can. If you don't want to, you don't have to.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let's, let's, let's play this out. What you're saying though, is that human existence is merely subjective based on who is more powerful than you, not necessarily.

[Audience Member 2]

Based on who's more powerful.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, think about it. You can't argue because the mom is more powerful than the baby. The mom is more developed, has agency, has Reason the baby does not yet have that. So to play that out. The pro choice argument is a eugenics argument being whoever is in charge has the power to eliminate whomever they want if they're an inconvenience to you. How is that any morally different than Adolf Hitler? Nazi Germany?

[Audience Member 2]

Were all of the Jews a part of Hitler?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, you know what, it's very interesting. They called the Jews parasites and a lot of pro abortion people call fetuses parasites. In fact, I had a recent debate where in the literature of the Planned Parenthood they will call it parasites. The Jews were called parasites and a stain on German culture, therefore to be eliminated. And so the same moral philosophy that governed Nazi Germany is the same moral philosophy that is used for poor abortion arguments. I can do what I want as long as I'm more powerful.

[Audience Member 2]

The argument is that you have control over your own body, which.

[Charlie Kirk]

But again it's. But what about the body that is. That's also in you? Does that baby have rights?

[Audience Member 2]

No. Not inside. Not while it's inside.

[Charlie Kirk]

The body doesn't have rights. Wow. Even though you have a heartbeat, brain waves. No. No rights.

[Audience Member 2]

Not while inside of the uterus.

[Charlie Kirk]

So, no, I just. I just. I want. I just want to be very. One more. One more thing that I think is really important. If it wasn't killing and. Or murder, which of course it is, why is it that you have to stop a heart from beating?

[Audience Member 2]

What do you mean?

[Charlie Kirk]

So there's a heart beating.

[Audience Member 2]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And then you have to stop the heart beating.

[Audience Member 2]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

How is that not killing?

[Audience Member 2]

It could be.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, so it is killing.

[Audience Member 2]

Even if it is, I am still okay with abortion.

[Charlie Kirk]

In a hypothetical experiment. Let's just play this out. It's actually not hypothetical. I want to make sure we're clear. Do you think that it should be legal if my wife and I get the pregnancy test back and we find out we're having a woman, a baby girl, and we say we don't want a girl. Should I be able to terminate that baby? It's called sex selective abortion. Should that.

[Audience Member 2]

No. I'm aware India made it illegal to get.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you think that should be screening.

[Audience Member 2]

Just because of that?

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm aware it's legal in America. Should it be?

[Audience Member 2]

I don't know. Do you think so?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course not. How about you?

[Audience Member 2]

Maybe America should just make gender reveals illegal. You know, finding out the sex of the baby.

[Charlie Kirk]

Wait, hold on. One more, one more. I find out that my baby has down syndrome, shall be able to terminate the baby.

[Audience Member 2]

It's your decision.

[Charlie Kirk]

You have no different moral philosophy than Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Hitler. Next person. It's amazing, the heartlessness of like. Oh, yeah, just discard them. When you dehumanize a population, it's easy to murder them.

[Audience Member 2]

Hi.

[Charlie Kirk]

They're booing me, not you.

[Audience Member 4]

I know, I know. My name is Zoe and I wanted to ask you about something you said earlier about how Christianity, the loss of faith of Christianity is shaping our country in a poor way. Yes. Yeah. So do you. What do you think about the separation of church and state?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it doesn't exist, but.

[Audience Member 4]

But shouldn't it?

[Charlie Kirk]

No. Why? Well, because it's not constitutional. There's the establishment clause and then a free expression clause, but, I mean, let's forget that. We should. You agree you should have separation of morality and state. That's the more important question.

[Audience Member 4]

See, that's an interesting topic because morality is a much broader question than religion. Because I'm thinking specifically with us being from a Western culture, Christian background and with the First Amendment. Freedom of religion is part of that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, for sure, yeah. But you have a misunderstanding, I think, and that's okay, of separation of church and state. It basically. It was a single letter.

[Audience Member 4]

Hold on, what's my misunderstanding?

[Charlie Kirk]

I was getting there. Where is it from? Tell me.

[Audience Member 1]

What?

[Charlie Kirk]

The phrase the separation of church and state. I was about to tell you, but interrupted me. You want to tell me?

[Audience Member 1]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. It's a single letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1803 to the Danbury Baptist Convention assuring them that the government would not come after them. It was resurrected by the Warren Court and then the Burger Court to then be used as this fictitious thing that Christianity cannot be involved in our government. That's all fine. You don't have to agree with that. The point is this, is that our laws, our customs and traditions are built on Judeo Christian norms, specifically the Ten Commandments. And I want you to tell me which of the Ten Commandments, maybe you agree or disagree, should not be the baseline of the American tradition or country, because it is the best way to live. The Ten Commandments objectively creates the best societies. You follow Ten Commandments, your society will flourish.

[Audience Member 4]

But do you think Christianity is the best thing for a country to follow?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course. We have. We have the agency for people to reject it or accept it. It's not by force. That's what a free society is all about. But yes, a Christian society, of course, is the best society. Absolutely. Because this country was once Christian. It was a way better Christian country than it is now. And now we are. Why do you think we're the most depressed, suicidal, alcohol addicted, drug addicted, aimless country generation and country in the Western world? It's largely because we're very, very secular.

[Audience Member 4]

Do you blame that on a loss of faith, or is that something with modern society, with how we have technology is such a big part of our lives and we're no longer engaging with people as much? It's not necessarily that Christianity is the best, but having community is more important.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yeah, I mean, Christianity gives you community, right? You go to church, you have community.

[Audience Member 4]

But is that the only option?

[Charlie Kirk]

I believe it's the best, though. I mean, you seem to have a negative view of Christianity. What is that?

[Audience Member 4]

I grew up, I went to private Catholic school.

[Charlie Kirk]

Where?

[Audience Member 4]

Portland, Oregon. Okay, so something with that is it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Just rubbed you the wrong way?

[Audience Member 4]

Maybe it did.

[Charlie Kirk]

I know I meet a lot of Catholics that were raised that way and they don't like.

[Audience Member 4]

It's the whole Catholic guilt thing.

[Charlie Kirk]

And then I actually, I love Catholic guilt. I think. I think it's amazing. But. Yeah.

[Audience Member 4]

What do you like about it?

[Charlie Kirk]

I think that you should believe there's a God that judges you and that you're not the center of the world and that you have to repent for what you've done wrong and that you need a savior. I think that all that's really important, actually. I think that believing you're the center of the universe creates narcissism and suicidal behavior. And I think that knowing that, like, hey, I've fallen a lot this week and I repent in my failures, in my deeds, what I've done, what I failed to do, is actually really amazing and important, and it requires us to go to the cross. And I think that's really healthy.

[Audience Member 4]

So do you think that with any sort of downfall or any crime that happens, that if someone repents enough that they can make up for it?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes or no? I believe all sins could be forgiven in God's economy. And I believe in transformation for sure. That's the. That's the. That's the promise of Christianity. But I. Do you think we have a guilt problem in this country or do we have a narcissism problem in this country?

[Audience Member 4]

I think both.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, we don't have a guilt problem in this country. No way. Yeah, we have a narcissism problem. We do not have people walking around feeling guilty for what they've done. We have people that shout their guilt from. Or that what is their guilt from? The rooftops bragging about the nonsense that they've done right?

[Audience Member 1]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

We have people shouting their abortions live streaming, shoplifting stores, talking about how they don't honor their parents anymore. I think that's bad. And so again, I believe in a God that loves us and a God that judges us, and both those things are simultaneously.

[Audience Member 4]

Do you believe in a fair God?

[Charlie Kirk]

I believe in a loving God. And our God is a God of justice and a God of mercy and a God that loves us so much that gave us a second chance and more importantly, a chance at eternal life. One that we don't deserve or one that we haven't earned.

[Audience Member 4]

So do you think that having Christian values and laws is something that's okay? Something that's a big topic that's talked about a lot today is like abortion and how there's a lot of laws that are made with this Christian idea?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. Again, abolishing abortion is not just a Christian idea. Christopher Hitchens was famously an anti abortion advocate. Okay. And he was an atheist. But yes, I do believe all abortion should be illegal.

[Audience Member 4]

What do you think about with medical complications? Because you even said yourself that there was medical complication that almost happened with your daughter. But what about if that was your wife? What if she was so sick?

[Audience Member 1]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, first of all, doctors lie a lot and they exaggerate that the medical complications are always necessary. In fact, we had a young lady just recently at an event who came and did that who said they need an abortion. She didn't. Secondly, almost always cesarean section can be performed. You know what a cesarean section is, right? A C section. And then if, if abortion is medically necessary, then yes, to save the life of the mother. But that's incredibly rare and even some obgyns don't believe that's ever, ever necessary.

[Audience Member 4]

Really? What about an ectopic pregnancy?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, so what, do you deliver the baby or have a cesarean section and you take the baby out? You don't terminate in topic pregnancy. You don't terminate the baby, you just take it out and it probably won't survive outside of the, outside of the womb.

[Audience Member 4]

So you're saying abortion is okay if it's to save a woman?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes, I was. I, I don't even think it's. I am of the belief that abortion is never medically necessary.

[Audience Member 4]

Are you a doctor?

[Audience Member 1]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Are you? But, but there is a. Yeah, but there's, there is a community of OB GYNs that agree with me.

[Audience Member 4]

So is it our decision to make? Is it something that we can.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's an interesting question.

[Audience Member 4]

So first of all, should it be something that people have the ability to vote on? Yes or no? If a woman is able to make.

[Charlie Kirk]

That choice, should a mom be able to kill her two year old daughter?

[Audience Member 4]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Are you a doctor?

[Audience Member 4]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, but why are we able to say it's wrong? So we're able to make moral statements when the baby's outside the womb? Why not why it's in the womb? Thank you for coming up. Think about that.

[Audience Member 3]

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