Debates From the Archive — Charlie on Why College is a Scam

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Charlie Kirk Show

Episode: Debates From the Archive — Charlie on Why College is a Scam
Host: Charlie Kirk
Date: October 23, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Charlie Kirk revisits a spirited debate on American college campuses about the value of higher education. He argues that college in its current form is a "scam" for most students, focusing on the financial burden, the lack of moral and intellectual substance, and the prevalence of left-wing ideology. Challengers—primarily students—push back on his claims, questioning his definitions, evidence, and outlook on education’s broader value. The conversation covers philosophy, the meaning and purpose of education, ethics, and the real-world utility of college degrees.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why College is a Scam (Charlie's Central Argument)

• Financial Burden & Deceptive Promises

  • College is overpriced, delivers little practical value for most, and often fails to prepare graduates for relevant jobs.
  • Kirk says, "College is a scam, everybody. You gotta stop sending your kids to college." (00:17)
  • Highlights the national graduation rate (59%). “Forty-one percent of kids that go to college do not [graduate].” (25:13)
  • Most graduates get jobs not requiring a degree: “Over half...” (25:28)
  • Informed consent is lacking: “Far too often, students are not given informed consent for the debt burden, the time, and unfortunately, the dropout rates...” (29:14)

• Ideological Indoctrination

  • Claims universities are breeding grounds for postmodern relativism, progressive ideology, and intellectual confusion.
  • “College is a scam. And you're a perfect example... to show the intellectual drivel that is caught on a college campus.” (14:35, 14:39)

• Education vs. Indoctrination

  • Distinction between real education and the buffet of “postmodern ideas.”
  • “Education in Latin means to lead forth... I think college should lead you towards the good, the true, and the beautiful.” (04:01–04:26)
  • Complains about mandatory classes in “drivel”: “How many of you are forced to take classes that are a waste of time... every hand goes up.” (30:42)

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2. Student Pushback & Counterarguments

• The Value of Exposure to Different Ideas

  • Students argue that college is about encountering new perspectives, developing independent thought, and social growth.
  • “Education right now is the ability to go out and learn different mindsets, to be introduced to different subjects...” (03:11)
  • “That's what college is about. Exposing yourself to different...” (18:28)

• Questioning the "Scam" Definition

  • Students press for rigorous definitions of both “scam” and educational outcomes.
  • “Give me a definition first because you're the one making a claim.” (24:39)
  • “Define value.” (27:18)
  • “Where do they specifically say that you are guaranteed a job?” (29:14)

• Not All Degrees Are the Same

  • Recognition that some fields (medicine, law, STEM) require formal credentials, and college serves a purpose.
  • “You already... So you're agreeing with me, right? You think that it's important that someone has a credential to do an accounting job.” (32:50–32:57)

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3. Philosophy, Ethics, and the Purpose of Education

• Defining Good, Truth, and Beauty

  • Kirk’s conservative, classical view: “The good, the true, and the beautiful are the three things that every college student should grapple with.” (04:56)
  • Student is skeptical: “I don't engage with you on the ideas that good, true and beautiful are something that can be defined and something that can be taught.” (05:15)

• Christian Metaphysics vs. Relativism

  • Kirk: “There's an ultimate perfection... a creator who loves you... There is nothing more perfect for good, true or beautiful than that.” (05:42–06:06)
  • Students challenge the objectivity of Kirk’s moral claims: “I think that something like good is... the question of ethics. It's not really a question of education.” (09:51)

• Ethics, Consequences, and Social Norms

  • Kirk sees consequence-based morality as central (“Would you be more or less likely to shoplift if a police officer was next to you?” (12:14)).
  • Student: “But consequences does not determine ethics.” (12:34)

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4. Culture War Issues: Gender and Feminism

• What Is a Woman?

  • Kirk repeatedly presses a feminist student to define “woman,” arguing cultural confusion is symptomatic of higher education’s failures.
  • “If you can't tell me what a woman is, and also you're a feminist, shouldn’t you be able to tell me what a woman is?” (21:10–21:20)
  • Kirk: “That civilization cannot answer the question of what is male and female? That civilization will cease to exist.” (19:45)

• Men, Women, and Societal Roles

  • Kirk: “We should open doors for women, for example... We as men have a moral right to stand up for the women in our life against predators, against rapists, against...” (22:00–22:17)
  • Student: “I think that we should protect everyone. If men have duress...” (22:08)

• Postmodernism & Ideological Conflict

  • Kirk bemoans “postmodern drivel” and invokes key theorists: “Do you want to talk about Herbert Marcuse, Jacques Derrida, or Michel Foucault. One-dimensional man... I have read the pantheon of the garbage that you believe.” (23:21–23:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're gonna end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful.” — Charlie Kirk (00:07)
• “First rule of communication, don't swear at the person you're talking to. Really?” (34:13)
• “If you go to Harvard, I think you are infected with the worst possible [ideas].” — Charlie Kirk (32:03)
• “You should have the ability [to read feminist writers], should it be elevated and taught in interdisciplinary way and, and treat it as if that's higher education is a different question.” — Charlie Kirk (17:59)
• “For more on many of these stories... and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com” — Charlie Kirk (35:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Charlie's Opening Appeal — (00:03–00:59)
  Emphasis on activism, faith, and getting involved.
• First Student Exchange: Education, Value, and College Funding — (01:09–06:32)
• Debate Over the Good, True, and Beautiful — (04:01–07:56)
• Ethics, Consequences, and Religion — (08:09–14:35)
• Gender, Feminism, and Definitions — (17:26–23:39)
• Second Q&A: Is College a Scam? Graduation, Value, Consumer Expectation — (24:04–30:17)
• Credentialism, Wisdom, and Hiring — (31:25–33:35)
• Communication, Tone, and Wrapping Up the Debate — (34:13–35:11)

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Tone and Style

• Charlie Kirk: Direct, combative, philosophical yet colloquial; mixes classical references and rhetorical provocations.
• Students: Inquisitive, sometimes defensive, mixing personal experience, skepticism of grand claims, and progressive values.

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Final Takeaway

Charlie Kirk lays out a case that, for the overwhelming majority of students, college no longer delivers on its promises—it leaves students in debt, fails to impart timeless virtues, and has become an ideological echo chamber. Students push back by highlighting intangible benefits, the diversity of experiences and learning, and the necessity of credentials for certain fields. The passionate debate underscores a vast divide over the meaning and value of higher education in modern America.

Transcript

[Charlie Kirk]

My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro American student organization in the country, fighting for the future of our republic. My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're gonna end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You gotta stop sending your kids to college. You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible. Go start a Point USA College chapter. Go start a Turning Point USA High School chapter. Go find out how your church can get involved. Sign up and become an activist. I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade. Most important decision I ever made in my life. And I encourage you to do the same. Here I am, Lord. Use me. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. The Charlie Kirk show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts, and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends and viewers.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Hi. I was hoping we could talk a little bit more about how you see college as a scam.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, I think we did that, but.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Sure, if you want to talk about something else, we can talk about something else. I was just curious.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. What would you like to pinpoint on that? Yeah.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Well, I think a big part of your issue is that people are spending a lot of money and that you feel like they're not getting the equivalent of all the money that they go into debt or that they have to borrow to make it worth it. Well, in that case, I really. I think education is really awesome. I think it's really valuable. I think education's. The only way that someone like you is able to write a book is because someone taught you how to read and write. And education on all levels is great. So that's not my. That one. I don't think that's your issue with college. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you know where I went to college?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I don't think that's important right now. Let me just.

[Charlie Kirk]

I didn't.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I'm just talking. I said read and write. Like, who taught you to read?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I agree. I didn't say grade school's a scam.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Can we just keep going?

[Charlie Kirk]

All right, I said college is a scam, not grade school. Keep going.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So we're talking about the financial part, right? So do you think that college should be free then, so that everybody can get, like, a free education?

[Charlie Kirk]

No. By the way, what's happening in college is not an education.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Well, okay. I'm just. You don't think that college should be free because it's not an education. If it was. No, wait, wait, wait. If it wasn't for both education in your eyes, would you think that should be free or.

[Charlie Kirk]

What do you mean by free? You mean paid by somebody else?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Well, sure. Our taxpayer dollars would go.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so. Yeah, so. So paid by somebody else. Sure, sure. No, I don't believe that your schooling should be paid by somebody else.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I want my taxes to go to schooling for everybody. I think education's great. I don't want my taxes to go to fund wars. I don't want my taxes to go to the military or the police budget, but I don't get taxes.

[Charlie Kirk]

You don't want any military?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I don't think that it should go to fund the military like that. I want my taxes.

[Charlie Kirk]

You don't want any police force.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I want my taxes to go towards education because I think education is valuable. Do you think that education should be so define education.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm curious.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Sure. It's just the. I would probably say that education right now is the ability to go out and learn different mindsets, to be introduced to different subjects, to have the opportunities to talk about these things with a lot of different kinds of people. I think that's the really cool part about college. Someone like you can come here and have different opinions. My history teacher just talked about how he's like. He does this whole, like, I'm a conservative, old school conservative act. And then one of my other teachers, she's like, I'm a bleeding hippie. You know, there's like, a lot of opportunities to just be introduced to subjects you didn't even know were a thing. Like, I didn't know that semiotics was a thing until my last philosophy class. And I think that's really interesting. So just the idea that you get to go out to this place and you get to get taught about a bunch of different ideas. Do you. Are you against that being available for everyone?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I have a completely different view of what education is. So. Education in Latin means to lead forth.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

Your idea of education is the new age, which is we're gonna have, like, a buffet line of postmodern ideas, and all ideas are treated the same. I don't believe that at all. College means partnership in Greek. And going back to education, you must leave forth towards something. And I think college should lead you towards the good, the true, and the beautiful. It should lead you towards things.

[College Student / Interviewer]

You think it should lead towards beautiful things?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Like, beautiful things. Like, you think that we should go out after College and be like, where's the prettiest thing?

[Charlie Kirk]

If your idea of beauty is just the aesthetic, then you're not having a great college experience.

[College Student / Interviewer]

What's your idea of beauty? My bad.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which is perfected in being.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, so you really like the Greek ideas and like, the Roman ideas of, like the. The idea of perfection and perfect harmony. Because that's like a very Greek and Roman way of thinking about.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it's Western, which is the civilization we currently live in.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, but that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me finish. Of course, you're right. So the good, the true, and the beautiful are the three things that every college student should grapple with. Do you think in this current university that is what you're currently grappling with, that the focus of your education is enriching yourself to get closer to what is good, what is true and beautiful?

[College Student / Interviewer]

See, I don't engage with you on the ideas that good, true and beautiful are something that can be defined and something that can be taught.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're perfect evidence of why I think college is a scam.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Why do you wait? I don't.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because, of course, they could be defined and they should be sought after.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, so you think that something like the beautiful, the perfect, something like goodness can be defined in quantifiable, teachable. Oh, because you're Christian. I forgot. You guys think that there's like a binary goodness.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no, there's a hierarchy, not a binary. There's an ultimate perfection. The ultimate perfection would be that there's a creator who loves you, who made you in his image and loved you so much, to come down and take the broken flesh form, live a perfect life, die and rise from the dead that you might live forever? There is nothing more perfect for good, true or beautiful than that.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, so I don't really engage with religion like that, but what about just the idea that you get to go to a place, you get taught about different subjects, you get the opportunity. Okay, I'm sorry. Because you don't. You don't have access to all these things. Wherever you come from, you get the opportunity to talk to people who know a lot about these different subjects and get to learn about that. You don't think that's true or, like.

[Charlie Kirk]

First of all, I don't think it should be free, and I don't think that's what education should be or what it once was. When it was at its best, what.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Do you think it was at its best? Because we have, like, the Indian Golden House of. Oh, no, I think it was called the Baghdad Golden House. Of wisdom. We have the Greek and Roman, and they had their whole thing about how you have to learn astrology at the same time as learning your education. We have, like, so many different points of learning and knowledge. I think people just love to learn. I think learning is inherent to what we want to do with our lives.

[Charlie Kirk]

So. So, two thoughts. That is the first line of Aristotle's metaphysics, which is all people seek to know the. That something within us wants to learn. So the answer your question. When was education at its best?

[College Student / Interviewer]

That was your. You were the one, like, education is not at the best here. You're like, this is your new age bull.

[Charlie Kirk]

Like, it is so.

[College Student / Interviewer]

But when was it good?

[Charlie Kirk]

I was about to say that, and you interrupted me again.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, my bad.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm sorry. So it was at its best when we had a thing called classical education here in America, specifically around the American founding. Classical education has a prioritization on Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle and the core canon of Greek thinking, which is that there is an abstract, distant good, the logos, which created the world. Right. I want to try to find out more about what that is.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So you think that education should revolve around ethics, then you think it should be teaching.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it's a big part of education, Yes. I think that creating good people should be the number one priority of education. Do you guys think that creating good people is a priority at Cal State Fullerton?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I don't think that that is really a thing that you can achieve, like, with a pointed. I don't think there's a way to really teach somebody. Being like, being a good person is so hard, and it involves so many different factors.

[Charlie Kirk]

I could prove to you how we could do it.

[College Student / Interviewer]

We're getting a little bit too general with things. The Greeks and the Romans, they weren't really like, they were. They had a lot of beliefs. Okay. Plato and Aristotle were not like, let's do the most good. They were not all in agreement about all these different things. They had a lot of.

[Charlie Kirk]

They had a teacher, student relationship. But let me ask you a question. If. Do you think people would commit more crimes or less crimes if they knew that a police officer was watching them at all times?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I don't think this is what we're talking about.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no. You asked. You said you cannot teach people good. I'm asking a question. If somebody thought that somebody was watching their actions, would they behave differently?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I think that people behave differently when.

[Charlie Kirk]

People watch their actions. Therefore, if society thought that there was a God that was watching all of their actions, would the they behave differently.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Do you feel like you behave better when someone is watching?

[Charlie Kirk]

Absolutely. And in fact, I.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So you feel like you can't be good without someone.

[Charlie Kirk]

There's not a matter of you can't be good is that you act better if you think that there is somebody watching and judging your actions.

[College Student / Interviewer]

This is the biblical fortunate for you. Because I want to do good, because I think it's better for the people around me, not because someone's watching me.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Like the ideas of the Panopticon.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, hold on a second. But if you believe that somebody is always watching your behavior, you'd be less likely to lie, less likely to steal, less likely to cheat. And this is a good question because you're coming after this in good faith. Do you think human beings are generally naturally good or generally not so good? Are we flawed from our birth or are we good, or are we a blank slate?

[College Student / Interviewer]

See, you're bringing up these Christian ideas of good. Again, I don't think we really come to the same synthesis on what a good person.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is Hitler good?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I feel like, again, you're not listening to me.

[Charlie Kirk]

Pretty simple question.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I think we'll come to the same synthesis about what I think we will, though, because for me, I think that something like good is, again, the question of ethics. It's not really a question of education. Right. So you have to question what they decide for themselves is good is different. Right. So Hitler thought what he was doing was good for his people. We do not see his actions as good because he was pretty awful to a lot of people. But when we turn things into an ethical question, he may see it as doing good for himself and God because, yes, a lot of people believe they're doing good for God, even if that means killing people.

[Charlie Kirk]

Was Hitler doing something objectively wrong?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Which thing are you talking about?

[Charlie Kirk]

You're talking about the concentration camps.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I don't like the concentration camps, believe it or not.

[Charlie Kirk]

But hold on, you don't like. So is that objectively bad?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Objectively bad? I do think that hurting people is objectively bad.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so now we're believing in bad. So then good. There's a spectrum now that you said objectively bad. So you now just said there's a spectrum. It's not a matter of, well, somebody wanted to do some good for yourself. No, no, no. Now there's a spectrum. Concentration camp bad. So then let's, like, get away from that. How about Mother Teresa good?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Are you talking about her actions and trying to help the poor?

[Charlie Kirk]

Hundreds of thousands of poor People that were saved in India and Calcutta thanks to her sacrificial work over 30 years.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I don't know Mother Teresa like that.

[Charlie Kirk]

But can we go?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I feel like we've gone really off track.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, actually you're talking about the most important thing because.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Dude, you're interrupting me again.

[Charlie Kirk]

It is kind of our t. Oh.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So you can interrupt me, but I can't interrupt you?

[Charlie Kirk]

The fact you can't answer this question shows that college is a scam. Because if you can't say that Mother Teresa good and hit Mother bad.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Mother Teresa denied anesthetics to people who are in serious pain because she thought the suffering would bring them closer to God. I think a lot of what she.

[Charlie Kirk]

Did consider to be true. Okay, but I'll take it.

[College Student / Interviewer]

We can't just reference random things and use that because right now we're talking about ideologies again. I find that what I consider to be good revolves more around the fact that humans are social creatures and generally pro social attitudes of promoting collectivism tends to be. It tends to be better for people just because that's in our evolutionary nature. But you are a Christian, so you believe that there's a guy watching you and that's what makes you do good. You're like, if someone's watching me, I am more likely to be nice, but I want to be.

[Charlie Kirk]

There's a lot of other. There's other reasons to do good. I was asking the question that would you be more or less likely to shoplift if a police officer was next to you in a department store? It's a very simple ethical question, but.

[College Student / Interviewer]

How does that make me good or not? That just makes me worried about consequences. No, it makes me worried about consequences, you little man.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you do not have consequences.

[College Student / Interviewer]

But consequences does not determine ethics.

[Charlie Kirk]

The mark of an intellectual fool is throwing around pejoratives when they don't have wisdom. Remember that. So, so the question is this. If you do not believe there's a consequence to your action, why wouldn't you do the action?

[College Student / Interviewer]

See, that's again the ideology of consequentialism. I don't really subscribe to that there should be consequences. No. But I think that consequences, your actions, can exist outside of a vacuum of consequences. Right? We can't make our decisions based on whether or not we think the actions will. Will lead to a certain outcome because those will always be random. Right. So I revolve more around. We try to do things that we think will promote general pro social attitudes. I think that that is more Likely to get us. Other than worrying about.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me ask you a hypothetical. This will tell me a lot. Is pedophilia wrong?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Pedophilia I consider to be wrong because it is actively damaging someone else. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

But what if they say they're a minor attracted person and it's pro social to be with a young person? Why are they.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Do you know what pro social means? Like pro social means. There's like pro social and antisocial behaviors. It's like a theory of social psychology. Pro social generally means like working together. Socialization.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, they're socializing with an 8 year old. Why is that wrong?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, that's not socializing and you know it. Antisocial behavior usually means doing things that are considered rejecting socialization. Like rejecting other people. Pushing things away. Promoting things that other people actively end up considering less.

[Charlie Kirk]

So then, should pedophiles go to prison?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Pedophiles go to. I do not know. What's the best way to handle pedophilia? Because. No, because how do we know? I don't think that anyone should molest a child. God forbid. But hold on, I really don't.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why shouldn't a pedophile go to prison? What?

[College Student / Interviewer]

That's again, we're getting really off topic. Let's go back to the idea of good and evil we're talking about.

[Charlie Kirk]

College is a scam. And you're a perfect example. Like one of the best.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Charlie Kirk]

I've ever seen. To show the intellectual drivel that is caught on a college campus.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Because you think that I'm not being taught about the good, the pure. Let's go back to that because I thought that was really interesting.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, the good, the true. We'll do a couple more minutes. The good, the true and the beautiful. Yes.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Right. So you think that that's something that can be quantified, can be taught, and that it can't wait. And not only that, that it should be taught that we should promote the ideas of good and beauty to other people. Okay, but let's remove it from that. What about just the idea of. Because remember the ancient Greeks and Romans that you love so much? They didn't have the same ideas of God in the same way that we do, but they still. Thank you for saying I'm correct. That was really nice of you.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's true.

[Lane Schoenberger]

You're right.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So when they wanted to learn, when they sought out learning, when they had schools of learning and all that kind of stuff, a lot of the times they didn't just teach things around ethics, they taught Other stuff. They taught astrology, they taught medicine, they taught science, they taught arts, and people wanted to learn that. Do you think that that ability, that experience of going into a place and saying, can you teach me more about this subject? Can I learn? Can I expand my worldview? Can I get open to different beliefs? Do you think that that should not be paid for or not be compensated?

[Charlie Kirk]

First of all, it should definitely not be paid for. Secondly, it depends if those disciplines are rooted in the pursuit of truth, goodness and beauty.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So you think they're tied into something that falls in your ideological worldview.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I, Can I finish? Okay. If those disciplines are finished, are rooted in the good, the true and the beautiful, absolutely.

[Lane Schoenberger]

This is Lane Schoenberger, chief investment officer and founding partner of Y Refi. It has been an honor and a privilege to partner with Turning Point and for Charlie to endorse us. His endorsement means the world to us and we look forward to continuing our partnership with Turning Point for years to come. Now hear Charlie, in his own words, tell you about why Refi.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm going to tell you guys about yrefi.com that is yrefy.com why refi is incredible. Private student loan debt in America totals about $300 billion. Why refi is refinancing distress or defaulted private student loans. You can finally take control of your student loan situation with a plan that works for your monthly budget. Go to yrefi.com that is whyrefi.com do you have a co borrower? Why refi can get them released from the loan. You can skip a payment up to 12 times without penalty. It may not be available in all 50 states. Go to yrefi.com that is yrefy.com let's face it, if you have distress or default of student loans, it can be overwhelming because of privacy loan debt. So many people feel stuck. Go to yrefi.com that is yrefy.com Private student loan debt relief. Why refi? Calm. Let me give you a hypothetical example.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay?

[Charlie Kirk]

So if you go. I don't know if this school has one, but if they have some sort of center for like feminist ideology or some sort of inter. Do they have one here? Then that is not in the pursuit of what is good, true and beautiful. That is in the pursuit of how I can complain and hate men and get a degree and be paid for that professional feminist.

[College Student / Interviewer]

And I don't. Wait, hey, let me finish.

[Charlie Kirk]

Then tell me what a woman is.

[College Student / Interviewer]

But I'm just saying again, we're not talking about that.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is a woman feminist?

[College Student / Interviewer]

You think that people should not have the ability to read the works of feminist writers.

[Charlie Kirk]

You should have the ability, should it be elevated and taught in interdisciplinary way and, and treat it as if that's higher education is a different question.

[College Student / Interviewer]

When people.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is, what is a woman? Really quick, just tell me.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Women have written a lot throughout centuries about feminist writers. Do you think that people should not be allowed to study all of these? Do you think it not?

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course, allowed and elevated are two different things.

[College Student / Interviewer]

But no one's forcing anyone here to take feminist studies.

[Charlie Kirk]

Has anyone here been forced to take a class full of drivel?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Of course.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's part of the, part of the core of any school.

[College Student / Interviewer]

People. That's called general education. And we do that so that people get a lot of opportunities to get exposed to different mindsets. You know, I take, I take a feminist class and no one there is forcing me to believe in what they're saying. It's just exposing me to these writings, these ideas. That's what college is about. Exposing yourself to different.

[Charlie Kirk]

We have clarity, but not agreement. Last question. You are a self described feminist. What is a woman?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Why do you want to know?

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm infinitely curious.

[College Student / Interviewer]

What's a man?

[Charlie Kirk]

You're looking at one.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So you would describe a man as having short hair, wearing a little popped.

[Charlie Kirk]

Collar, X, Y chromosomes.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay. And why do you think that that's important to you? What a man and a woman is? How does that like, define your worldview going forward? Do you treat men and women differently?

[Charlie Kirk]

Can you? Of course we should treat men and women differently. Of course.

[College Student / Interviewer]

In what way?

[Charlie Kirk]

We should honor and protect women.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I want to honor and protect you, man.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, great.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Do you not like that? Do you not want to be.

[Charlie Kirk]

Women are worthy of protection. Of course.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I think you're also worthy of protection. Don't talk down to yourself for that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can you please, can you tell me what a woman is? Since you're a feminist, I want you.

[College Student / Interviewer]

To ask yourself, why do you think that it's so important to you that we define man and woman? Like, how does that change the way.

[Charlie Kirk]

That the civilization cannot answer the question of what is male and female? That civilization will cease to exist.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Is that why the Roman Empire failed? Because all of a sudden.

[Charlie Kirk]

Aristotle. It's one of the reasons why this civilization is collapsing. Because we send kids to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt that can't answer the most simple biological question. I'll ask you one last time. What is a woman?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I know you're not asking this for actual. You're trying to get a gotcha, right? You're trying to get like a little baity question. But I really want to know why is it so important to you to define things in certain categories? How does that help your day to day life?

[Charlie Kirk]

What other categories in the human species are there besides male and female?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Well, I just think that categorization is usually unhelpful when we're trying to improve some society. Right? We want to make things better for people, we want to improve things.

[Charlie Kirk]

So I have XY chromosomes.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I give birth?

[College Student / Interviewer]

No, you can't.

[Charlie Kirk]

Bingo. That's why categorization matters. Do, do men menstruate?

[College Student / Interviewer]

What?

[Charlie Kirk]

Do men, men do XY chromosome. Do they menstruate?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Yes, menstruate. Okay, because you're saying menstruate and it's like kind of. But again, you're saying these things because you're trying to get a gotcha and I don't want.

[Charlie Kirk]

You asked a question. Why is it important? You asked the question and I'm telling you there are big differences between men and women.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Here's a question.

[Charlie Kirk]

Men and women are not the same. And if you can't tell me what a woman is, and also you're a feminist, shouldn't you be able to tell me what a woman is?

[College Student / Interviewer]

I'm a feminist.

[Charlie Kirk]

That probably important to feminism. What is the woman that you're trying to advance and protect? Isn't that integral to. Is that the whole feminist project?

[College Student / Interviewer]

So a lot of times feminism has to do with the ways that people have treated the female sex on a different way than the male sex has. Traditionally, it's all about analyzing that, exposing it. You say that men and women are different and you think that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you disagree?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Wait, I'm just asking you. I'm not done yet.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[College Student / Interviewer]

And you think they should be treated differently, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it depends in what context though should be treated differently politically? No. To be treated differently under the law? No. Should they be treated differently in a societal customs and norms? Yes.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Why?

[Charlie Kirk]

We should open doors for women, for example.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, but where do you see these.

[Charlie Kirk]

Women should be charitable to women come from? We should protect women if they're under duress.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I think that we should protect everyone. If men have duress.

[Charlie Kirk]

We as men have a moral right to stand up for the women in our life against predators, against rapists, against.

[College Student / Interviewer]

People that wish them harm for everybody in our life.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course we do.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Why do you see? Because women are protect and, and take care of other people. You are placing Yourself, not necessarily ideological standpoint where you gain more power by having someone that you can protect. I find that system and hierarchy of power to be just exhausting to traverse the world through just looking at people as people to protect and people to take care of instead of us working together. Right. And trying to improve things.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you think there are any differences between a male and female?

[College Student / Interviewer]

Are we talking about just the sex right now? Of course there's tons of differences just between the male and the female sex. But what's important is what we. How we treat people because of that.

[Charlie Kirk]

You know, so that therefore they have different contributions to give to society.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I think that everybody has different contributions, man, just cuz I'm not popping out kids 247 doesn't mean I can't be helpful.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not saying that that's not the case. However, if you can't tell me again what a woman is and you're not, you're not able to answer the question because that is the cheat code against postmodernism.

[College Student / Interviewer]

No, because I don't think you even know what postmodernism is.

[Charlie Kirk]

Or you want to talk about Herbert Marcuse or Jacques Derrida or Michel Foucault. One dimensional man.

[College Student / Interviewer]

Okay, we can get.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because.

[College Student / Interviewer]

So don't.

[Charlie Kirk]

Don't try to tell me I don't know postmodernism because I have read the pantheon of the garbage that you believe. But let me complete with this postmodernism.

[College Student / Interviewer]

I don't want to be exposed.

[Charlie Kirk]

I actually know. I actually know what the literature says and what it means and what it espouses. But this is why it's the great cheat code. Because it is the war against what a woman is.

[College Student / Interviewer]

It's the only way that you can get a gotcha over everybody else.

[Charlie Kirk]

Great conversation. You'll see it online next week. I hope you enjoy. Thank you. Yes.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Hello, how are you? Hi, how are you doing? Perfect. All right, so what's your strongest opinion or political opinion right now?

[Charlie Kirk]

My strongest.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Yeah, because I'm kind of here to debate you, so I kind of want to hear what your I want to hear your biggest gun is.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let's do it this way. Why don't you tell me something and we can. I have lots of opinions.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Awesome. All right. I don't think college is a scam, so.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I mean, I don't know if you agree with that, but it's on all your shirts, so.

[Charlie Kirk]

I did write a book, so how about this? What would you say is a scam?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I mean, I feel like it's kind of on you to tell me what to say because you're making a claim here.

[Charlie Kirk]

What a scam. Can we agree on what a scam?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Give me a definition first because you're the one making a claim.

[Charlie Kirk]

How about if 40% of your customers don't get the product?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that a scam?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Well, I mean, it kind of depends on, like, what your promise was when you gave the product in the first place, Right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so how about if you go to Chili's and 40% of your customers get food poisoning?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I kind of reject your equivalency here because you're saying that there's an actual necessary, like, return on what you're asking for. When college in and of itself doesn't necessarily say that you're going to get this graduation, there might be a cultural.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm talking about a graduation. So what is the national graduation rate?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I mean, you tell me.

[Charlie Kirk]

59%. How many of you know someone that dropped out of college? Everyone Hand goes up. Yes. 41% of kids that go to college do not drop out. What percentage of kids that graduate college get jobs that do not require a college degree 10 years after graduating?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I'm not sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

Over half. Okay, so the degree is useless for over.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I feel like. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Charlie Kirk]

You just spoke. So debate those two things. Graduation rate and whether or not a college degree is useful in the marketplace.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Well, I mean, you're kind of saying that, like, because people aren't. Or, like, they're not, I guess, using their degree 10 years from, like, when they got it, that necessarily means that, like, college is useless. But you're kind of like, forgetting, like, if I do a job. Right. Like any of the people working here, right. They work for you maybe two years. Work at Turning Point. Right. They take skills that they learn with them to a new job. So not necessarily that they are using everything they learned at this job and then taken to the next one. They could be just, like, doing something completely different. So you could say that maybe their work here was useless, but you probably wouldn't think that, right? I think it's kind of the same thing with college, except that, like, you might not necessarily use your degree, but you're using skills that you got at college for your next job. So it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use it in the future.

[Charlie Kirk]

I want to make sure you understand what I'm saying. The job that they get does not require them to have a degree. So they could have gotten that job out of high School, Sure. But, like, they could have got the skills without the $100,000 in debt.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

You're kind of like skipping the midpoint here.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Because if you learn something and then don't necessarily, like, use it at your next job, that doesn't necessarily mean what you learned before was, like, useless. Okay, so I think you're predicating this on, like, what? College?

[Charlie Kirk]

What do you learn?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Something that you use in the future. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

The vast majority of students that enter college, what do you think they learn that is most useful in the marketplace?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Oh, that's a great question. There's so many things that you can use. You have interpersonal people skills, you have the ability to speak. You have communication classes where you learn how to make a speech, like I'm doing right now.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you think college is necessary to learn to give a speech or.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Probably not necessary, but I don't really know necessary.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Because my claim was never. It's necessary. Your claim was that college is a scam. And I'm not saying it's necessary. You're just saying it's a scam. So you have to disprove that claim right now.

[Charlie Kirk]

So a scam would be that if 10% or 20% of your customers do not get the value of what is being offered. For example, if.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Okay, define value.

[Charlie Kirk]

The promise that is guaranteed. So, for example, promise. Tell me the promise for you. Go to Cal State Fullerton's website. It says achieve greatness.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

So you can't achieve. So, like, whether or not they're scamming people because they're not achieving great.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you're going to interrupt me like every 10 seconds, not much of a dialogue. So it's more of like a, you know, prosecution.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I got you.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's fine. I'm happy to know whichever.

[Lane Schoenberger]

You're right.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

You're right.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you go to the website. It says achieve greatness. To prepare students for the 21st century and an ever evolving job market. According to statistics, half of graduates from this university will end up getting jobs of which they never had to go to college in the first place. They never had to get the piece of paper. They never had to go into debt, and they never had to spend four years here. If you went to United Airlines, if you went to a bank, and 10, 20, 30% of their promises were a lot different or what they deliver were different than the promises of what they say. We would shut them down as a scam and saying they're lying to their customers. In fact, we do this all the time. We do this to websites that say, hey, take this pill and this supplement, and you're gonna be XYZ stronger. You're gonna lose all this weight. We shut down industries all the time for misleading their customers. So, for example, my question for this. When you guys enrolled at this university, did you know that if you're studying sociology, more. More likely than not, you're gonna end up in a job market where that piece of paper is not actually a factor in future employment. Was that part of when you signed up here? Did you know that? Most people don't.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I mean, personally, I did. Okay, well, then I'm gonna. So I guess, like, what you're making this claim off of is that, like, college makes a promise. Right. That you are gonna be able to use your certificate that you get from the school in your future job. Right. That's the claim that you're making.

[Charlie Kirk]

From what I'm aware, one of several. I wrote a whole book about why.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Okay, but I'm just talking about what you're saying in front of me.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's correct. So there's a promise made to a consumer. You, big amount of money borrowed.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Sure.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that promise is not fulfilled far too often. I would say 30 to 40% of the time, minimum, 50 to 60% of the time.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

So what you're saying right now is because I asked you, I said, where do they specifically say that you are guaranteed a job? Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's embedded in the experience. And anyone is somebody here because they think their life is going to be worse because they go to college, definitely not. Okay. The expectation of borrowing hundreds of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars, potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, is. I'm betting on myself to enrich my future. That's the whole idea why they're here. Yeah. Okay. So it's not as if you walk around, you're like, well, it's a risk, you know, here at college, take, you know, North African lesbian poetry and spend all this time here, you know, learning why men can give birth. No, the idea is that I'm gonna suck it up and go to these classes of the four most important years of my life where I have energy and I have passion, and then I'll be able to go get a great job. For certain degrees and measures, that's the case. But here's the part. In economics or in markets, you need informed consent. And far too often, students are not given informed consent for the debt burden, the time, and unfortunately, the dropout rates that are associated with college, not to mention the ideological drivel that is, you.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Know, honestly, like, I think you're touching on an important point, which is that there needs to be an informed consumer. However, I think that, like, because my original question was, do you think college is a scam? Right. And you tried to, like, give me, like, a metric for which, like, it's like, making it a scam. But, like, I feel like you haven't said anything about, like, how, like, college, like, college doesn't promise you that you're going to get okay. So that's not like, anything. So I feel like.

[Charlie Kirk]

Fair enough. Let me go.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

You just proselytize for like five minutes. Come on. But can I get a turn?

[Charlie Kirk]

But let me ask a question. How many of you are forced to take classes that are a waste of time that you do not want to have to take? Every hand goes up. So how is that not a scam? So they're being forced to take classes they don't want to take that if they had other choices.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

So here, hold on, let's ask the audience again. Out of those classes that you didn't want to take, do you think that you learned anything useful at all? Even one thing? You learned nothing useful. You guys learned nothing useful from even, like, even a class that you didn't like. Come on. Really?

[Charlie Kirk]

So, yeah, you get the crowd. The crowd is against you, man.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

So, I mean, I'm hearing a lot of. I'm hearing a lot of yeses and no.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. But hold on. So maybe you might have learned something to your point. Yeah. Could you have learned that from watching YouTube videos or reading books? Not having to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

You definitely might have. But listen, you're an employer, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

If you're an employer, employee, 400 people.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

If you're an employer, right. And you're looking for an accountant, right? You can take someone who is completely. And I'm just probably a pretty common talking point, but I kind of want to see what you say to it. You can take someone who is self taught, Right. Has, like their own credentials and I'm sure you would interview them, right? You have a hundred applicants, right? You're telling me you wouldn't screen on someone who probably, I don't know, like, went to Harvard for, like, accounting, you know, I'm saying, well, if they went.

[Charlie Kirk]

To Harvard, they would never work for Turning Point usa, like, ever.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Says a lot about your organization then, doesn't it?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, it does that. Yeah. We don't, we don't have any sort of way.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Let me just share your point. So, like, what you're saying is like, someone could be overqualified based on the degree that you think is worthless. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

If you go to Harvard, I immediately think you're an intellectual idiot. Like, oh, wow. If you go to Harvard, I think you are infected with the worst possible.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Goes against what you just said about them being overqualified to work for your. Your organization. Right?

[Charlie Kirk]

I never said overqualified. I said they'd be over credentialed. There's a big difference in qualification and credential.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I mean, you just talked about how you can get a credential outside of school, but in this case, someone's could.

[Charlie Kirk]

Be wisdom and intelligence outside of school.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Okay, that's a good one.

[Charlie Kirk]

But you don't have to get a credential outside of school.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Wisdom and intelligence.

[Charlie Kirk]

So there's a big difference. Wisdom is the knowledge of things that don't change. Intelligence is the knowledge of things that do change. Intelligence is the processing power that allows you to find wisdom and factual knowledge. But to your point, so if there were applicants. We don't require college degrees for applicants at Turning Point usa. But you say the accountant thing. The vast majority of kids that go to college are not becoming accountants, lawyers, doctors.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Okay, hold on. But they're not away. But you already. So you're agreeing with me, right? You think that it's important that someone has a credential to do an accounting job.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right, but that's. Of course. But.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Okay, so hold on, wait.

[Charlie Kirk]

So that's sliver of the reason why.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

People go to college. You know, I'm not talking about a sliver. You said college is a scam.

[Charlie Kirk]

I do the.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I'm holding you to that. You said college is a scam, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

And your own value criteria was that people couldn't get a job out of college. And you're literally saying that you can get a job out of college for being an accountant.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me make the shirt even more specific. College in its current form, that affects the majority of students at the majority of colleges, not counting the sliver cases of doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants that are able to avoid left wing parasitic ideology is a scam.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

So, like the majority of people that come out.

[Charlie Kirk]

That doesn't make a good T shirt, man.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

All right, fair enough. Mean I can, I can do my own little, like, yeah, like, you know, like conservative ideologies, like making everyone like, go back to like trad, you know, like traditionalism, like 7th century, you know, like, I can do that too. Like, but we're not actually having a discussion if you Just keep throwing buzzwords in here.

[Charlie Kirk]

What?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

So let me ask you this. So when you say college is a scam. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

I gave you the longer.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

Yeah, you gave me the longer explanation.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

You kind of conceded already that parts of college are not a scam, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it depends what you again, then you and I.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

But the parts. I'm not going to read your book. Listen, I'm talking to you.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're not arguing.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I'm talking to you right now. I want to know what you're saying. I don't. About your book. I don't care about your book. I just want to hear what you're saying to me right now. So here, listen.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so you're getting a little upset. Communication course you talk about in college you probably haven't learned very much about, like how to publicly speak effectively. First rule of communication, don't swear at the person you're talking to. Really?

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

I'm not swearing at you.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you're kind of proving the point that college is a scam, kind of by you making a fool of yourself in front of everybody. So you should go demand your money back from that communication professor.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

So what I'm trying to get at right here is people you talk to. You said that college is a scam.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

And we found a criteria in which college isn't a scam.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on. So again, I'm happy to direct you to my 300 piece of page piece of literature where I dive into with necessary exceptions. But even if you go to become an accountant, there's a cost to that. There's an ideological cost, there's a time cost, there's a financial cost. And that's if you are able to avoid the inevitable indoctrination. A lot of other people want to ask questions. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. For more on many of these stories.

[College Student / Interviewer 2]

And news you can trust, go to charliekirk.

[Charlie Kirk]

Com.