Debates From the Archive - Charlie on Why College is a Scam Part 2

Summary

The Charlie Kirk Show

Episode: Debates From the Archive - Charlie on Why College is a Scam Part 2
Date: October 30, 2025
Host: Charlie Kirk

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Main Theme

In this episode, Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA, challenges the conventional wisdom surrounding higher education in America. The central theme is his argument that college is a “scam” for most students—overpriced, under-delivers, and sends many into unnecessary debt without clear value. Through spirited debates with college students, Kirk unpacks the economic, cultural, and societal consequences of the existing college system and advocates for alternative pathways to success.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. College as a "Scam"

• Kirk’s central argument: College is oversold to young Americans as the only path to success, yet for most, it brings debt, lost time, and little practical value.
• "Half this audience, if you get a job, will get a job that doesn’t require a college degree." (09:40)
• Cites statistics:
  • 50% of college grads take jobs that don’t require a college degree.
  • 41% of people who start college never graduate. (10:11, 15:01)
  • Only 18–20% study fields like engineering, medicine, or law that require a degree. The rest are in “worthless, meaningless” disciplines. (11:48, 15:19)

2. Economic and Job Market Realities

• Kirk contrasts average earnings and job prospects:
  • “Average college graduate is getting a job at $61,000 a year…the average plumber after 18 months, $68,000 a year…the average welder, $72,000.” (04:40)
  • "There are 11 million job openings that don't require a college degree in this country." (04:59, 12:48, 19:10)
  • Technical schools, trades, and direct entry into the workforce are presented as practical, lucrative alternatives.

3. Mismatch in Education and Workforce Needs

• Charlies criticizes general education requirements:
  • “You are being scammed against your will to take classes that make you go further into debt.” (02:48)
  • “They are forcing them to take classes that make them poorer, that take up their time in order to get the credential. That is an institutional scam.” (16:31)

4. College and Personal Development

• Kirk questions the idea that college inherently instills virtue or discipline:
  • “Employers more and more not wanting to hire college graduates…because they're super entitled…” (01:43)
  • Argues that personal growth, hard work, and networking can be developed outside the college environment.

5. Government Subsidies and the Cost of College

• Kirk takes issue with taxpayer-funded education:
  • “So I'm paying for your college is what you're saying. My taxes are paying for your college." (07:06)
  • Advocates for colleges to be wholly funded by tuition and private donors, not by federal or state dollars. (21:50–23:00)

6. The Cultural Impact of College

• Repeatedly asserts that college leads to “a lower view of America,” radical politics, and progressive indoctrination. (01:26, 10:18)
• Questions if students are really learning about the heritage and values of Western Civilization versus being fed postmodern ideology.

7. The True Value of a Degree

• Suggests many employers value real-world skills and attitude over a credential:
  • “Employers less and less likely actually want to hire kids from college because they work the least, they're the most entitled…” (25:25)
• Notes that after a few years, nobody in the workforce cares where you went to college. (25:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On College Being a Scam

• “College is a scam, everybody. You gotta stop sending your kids to college.” — Charlie Kirk (00:14)
• “Any business that has a 50% rate of a customer being scammed will be shut down by the federal government for disenfranchising their customers. You went to Chili’s, like, hey, 50% chance that our fries are going to give you food poisoning.” — Charlie Kirk (09:40)

Economic Comparisons

• “Do you know the average college graduate now...is getting a job at $61,000 a year? The average plumber after 18 months, $68,000 a year. The average welder, $72,000 a year.” — Charlie Kirk (04:40)
• “A manager of a Walmart pays minimum $250,000 a year, upwards of $400,000 a year…They don’t require a college degree.” — Charlie Kirk (12:24, 29:27)

Student Subsidies and Accountability

• “So I'm paying for your college is what you're saying. My taxes are paying for your college.” — Charlie Kirk (07:06)
• “You should have skin in the game. You should and you don't. Right now you are doing a freeloading thing. Of course you should be defensive of college.” — Charlie Kirk (07:39)

On Broader Cultural Shifts

• “The majority of kids that go to college and they graduate have a lower view of America than when they entered. Do you think that's a troubling thing?” — Charlie Kirk (01:26)
• “Young people are the most depressed, they're the most anxious, the most alcohol addicted, drug addicted, least married, most angry generation in American history.” — Charlie Kirk (24:05)

On the True Purpose of College

• “College really should be closer to what Hillsdale College is, which is about wisdom, beauty, truth, goodness, not just about job preparedness, but that’s…we’ve lost that completely.” — Charlie Kirk (20:59)

On Diversity and Required Courses

• “Yeah, you have to take a diversity class. That sounds like a scam. Well, they are robbing you to take a diversity class.” — Charlie Kirk (17:48)

Exchange on COVID Vaccine

• [Contentious segment refuting mainstream claims about the COVID vaccine, ending with:]
  • “I hope you don’t die suddenly, man. Thank you so much. Yes.” — Charlie Kirk (09:15)

Memorable Student Challenge

• When asked “What is your definition of a woman?” Kirk replies:
  • “A woman is an adult female with XX chromosomes.” — Charlie Kirk (28:31)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:14 — Opening statement: Kirk lays out his worldview and calls college a scam.
• 01:09–02:20 — Begins debate with a student disagreeing on the necessity/value of college.
• 04:40–05:06 — Economic comparisons between college grads and trades; “11 million” non-degree jobs.
• 06:46–07:17 — Subsidized education and the fairness of taxpayer support.
• 09:40–10:11 — The "Chili's/Food poisoning" analogy; high dropout rates.
• 13:08–13:40 — Kirk reiterates most students will not need their degree for their career.
• 15:01–16:31 — Kirk argues that institutional requirements force students into debt for unnecessary classes.
• 17:48–18:13 — Targeting diversity course mandates as a scam.
• 19:10–20:03 — Discussion on job market alternatives to college.
• 21:50–23:00 — Kirk outlines policy suggestion: fully defund colleges, end federal subsidies.
• 24:05–24:18 — Kirk links higher education with negative generational mental health and cultural outcomes.
• 25:25–25:53 — Debate on whether employers ignore degrees after a few years of experience.
• 28:31–28:41 — Defining "woman"; shift to cultural debates.
• 29:13–30:23 — On muscular labor, trades, and quality of life jobs versus college degrees.

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Flow of the Episode

• Spirited, often combative back-and-forths between Kirk and various college students highlight divergent perspectives on the value of higher education.
• Kirk repeatedly returns to hard statistics and rhetorical analogies, emphasizing both the economic inefficiency and ideological subcurrents of modern universities.
• Multiple students attempt to push back or nuance his views—especially those in technical or high-value academic programs (like computer science, economics, engineering).
• The episode maintains Kirk’s signature assertive, unapologetically conservative tone, with moments of humor and pointed sarcasm.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Charlie Kirk Show is an unflinching critique of the American college system, recasting higher education as a predatory, inefficient, and culturally corrosive institution for the majority of students. Kirk’s arguments blend economic analysis, cultural critique, and policy proposals—calling for a reevaluation of societal priorities, and for young people to consider alternative, often more lucrative, paths.
For listeners questioning the status quo of higher education, this episode is a direct challenge to prevailing narratives and an endorsement of self-reliance, trades, and practical experience over traditional degrees.

Transcript

[A]

My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro American student organization in the country, fighting for the future of our republic. My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're gonna end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You gotta stop sending your kids to college. You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible. Go start a Point USA College chapter. Go start a Turning Point USA High School chapter. Go find out how your church can get involved. Sign up and become an activist. I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade. Most important decision I ever made in my life. And I encourage you to do the same. Here I am, Lord. Use me. Buckle up everybody. Here we go. The Charlie Kirk show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends and viewers.

[B]

I'd like to disagree with you about college as a scam. Okay, just because there's 50% of people who you say don't need college to get a job, why would it be a scam? There's a social impact about college, about, on America. College is, you know, good.

[A]

The majority of kids that go to college and they graduate have a lower view of America than when they entered. Do you think that's a troubling thing?

[B]

I think just changing your opinion doesn't really matter too much.

[A]

Do you think that college teaches responsibility and hard work?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Okay, well, I find that hard to believe. Why is it that employers are more and more not wanting to hire college graduates and they actually want to hire people that didn't go to college?

[B]

What employers?

[A]

You can name them out, man. Walmart just got rid of their even in their corporate level. So you don't need to go to college. Koch Industries, one of the largest employers in the country from Georgia Pacific Railroad to Dow Chemical. They said we no longer want kids that have gone to college because they end up causing problems because they're super entitled and they're like, oh, what are my pronouns? And they have all this like left wing nonsense that they've been filled with.

[B]

Well then you have engineers, doctors, lawyers, people.

[A]

Sure, we need that. But that's less than 20% of the people that go to college. Yeah, but college is a scam.

[B]

It'd be wrong to say college is a scam, but 25% of people become great people. No, lawyers, doctors, engineers.

[A]

That's not what college Currently is though. Again, I. I'm happy to have you read the book College is a scam. I wrote it. I can have a more wordy thing, which is the vast majority of people go to college are receiving a scam for the money that they're borrowing. The vast majority. Of course, there's exceptions. You can make whatever you want with your life. I mean, you could, but I mean, when you enter into an enterprise, you.

[D]

Need to know that you are going.

[B]

To college at the end.

[A]

How many of you guys have to take classes that are a waste of time that you wish you wouldn't have to single hand you're being scammed against your will to take classes that make you go further into debt. Why can't you say, I don't want to take this class. Why are you. Why?

[B]

As a customer, you can't do a differential equation.

[A]

You what?

[B]

Can you do a differential equation?

[A]

Can I do it?

[B]

Can you explain to me the anatomy of a human?

[A]

Like somewhat off the top psychology is. Yes, I do know what psychology can explain to me. Do you want me to explain psychology?

[B]

You can't explain it to the depths of a bachelor's degree or a PhD.

[A]

Well, hold on a second. Time out, I've sat here with no notes, no phone and debated people with PhDs.

[B]

Because it's your job.

[A]

Hold on. I didn't go to college, man. That's the point is you could do whatever you want without a college degree. You can listen to podcasts, read books. You don't need to go.

[B]

Wasn't able to go to the University of Gottingen.

[A]

That's literally the reason I can't hear what you said. What'd you say?

[B]

You know Gauss, right? Mathematician.

[A]

Yeah, vaguely, sure. Okay.

[B]

Vaguely, yes.

[A]

Vaguely, yeah. Do you know who Mila Freeman is? Do you know who Herbert Marcuse is? Do you know who Thomas Sowell is?

[B]

Do you use a phone?

[A]

Do you know who Governor Morris is?

[B]

Well, that's because of gals.

[A]

No, you don't. So I could do Gotcha too.

[B]

Like before you try to go into.

[A]

University Towers.

[B]

He was able to become so proficient in mathematics.

[A]

So here's the thing.

[B]

Change the world.

[A]

The majority of kids that go to college are more depressed than when they answer.

[B]

PhD degree are able to perform much better in their field than someone who doesn't.

[A]

Well, then, if that's the question, if that really is true, if college is this amazing accelerant, then why do so.

[B]

I wouldn't say it is accelerant, but if you're looking at a science Let me finish, man. And you want to accelerate that?

[A]

Have you not done that?

[B]

You need a degree.

[A]

Alright, let me make my point. If that's the case, why do half of these kids end up with anywhere between 50 to $100,000 in debt and they end up getting a job that says oh, sorry, you never needed the degree in the first place. Why is that the case? Tell me.

[B]

People on average once going to the college make more money.

[A]

Hold on, that's not true. They end up getting a job. That's only if they graduate. And it depends on the field of study. Do you know the average college graduate now is, is, is getting a job at $61,000 a year. The average plumber after 18 months, $68,000 a year. The average welder, $72,000 a year with peers.

[C]

The.

[A]

Well, the plumber didn't go to college. The plumber went to trader technical school. There's 11 million job openings that do not require a college degree in this country.

[B]

11 million plumbers use.

[A]

I'm sorry, what?

[B]

Who engineered the stuff plumbers use?

[A]

I'm sure someone here, I mean that it's like someone with a degree, it's like saying, who designed the airplane for the pilot?

[B]

Someone with a degree that went to college. Let's go to college.

[A]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying you get rid of all places of higher learning, the way it's currently comprised for you guys, the amount of debt you have to go into the classes, you don't get rid.

[B]

Of places of higher learning. But then you go on, you're interrupting.

[A]

Every 15 seconds, you're not debating in good faith because it is a scam. So let me ask you a question. Can you point to other things of American life the last hundred years that have been scams? For example, when someone, they run an advertisement, they say buy these pills because you know we're gonna make you super muscular and they don't have all the fine print that it might not work and you have to have a monthly subscription. We shut down that business for being.

[B]

That's a little different though. That's a whole. How is it different?

[A]

Hold on a second. When you show up to college, did they tell you you have to take all these classes that you didn't sign up for? Did they said that you're gonna have to take all these different classes? Did they tell you that half of you guys would not ever use your degree when you go into your career? How many guys knew that? You guys knew that when you signed up.

[B]

Well, calling is what you make of you guys are.

[A]

You guys are willingly participating in the scam. Good for you. The point is this is that most kids know deep down they're getting ripped off. The number one thing I hear from people across the country in corporate America, boy, college is a waste of time. Boy, I wish I never would have gone. Now I have $60,000 of debt, $70,000 in debt. I wanted to start a business, but now I don't have the credit to do it. Instead, we are wasting our most prized possession, our 18 to 22 year olds, to go stick them at many universities when they shouldn't be here in the first place. And it is a failed project. It is making us poorer. It is make. And by the way, just, just look at the actual numbers over a period of time. Has it worked? Is homeownership now going up for young college graduates?

[B]

How are we going to blame that on college though?

[A]

It's the, there's a lot of different.

[B]

Reasons people are not.

[A]

It's the most equally applicable thing across the board for a generation. And, and if you look at the average. How much debt do you have to go to school, by the way?

[B]

None.

[A]

None. Okay. Wow. Do you, are you on scholarship or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so who's paying for your college then?

[B]

Probably the federal government.

[A]

Okay, so I'm paying for your college is what you're saying. My taxes are paying for your college. So wait, do you have a you're on grant or what?

[B]

I'm not gonna discuss my college finances.

[A]

Well now this is really important. This is why you're so defensive of college. This is why you're so forceful. Because you don't have to walk around the rest of your life with a hundred thousand dollar student loan debt.

[B]

Plenty of people that have part time jobs and go to college.

[A]

This explains you perfectly. I, the taxpayer, when I write my check to the irs, I'm subsidizing your ability to go to college.

[B]

Okay, when I write my check to the irs, I also give money for people to go to college.

[A]

You should have skin in the game. You should and you don't. Right now you are doing a freeloading thing. Of course you should be defensive of college.

[B]

I pay taxes, I pay federal taxes, I pay state taxes.

[A]

I'm sure I pay a little bit more than you, but that's a separate issue. But the point is this is that you think you pay anywhere close to the tuition value you get at the school? Probably not.

[B]

Yeah, probably. I do. It's like 5,000 a semester. It's a lot of money, but you.

[A]

Get a lot out of that. Hold on. How much is it to go to school here?

[B]

It's around 5,000.

[A]

So in state?

[B]

In state, yeah.

[A]

Okay. That include room and board and tuition?

[C]

No.

[A]

Okay, how much does it cost?

[B]

Room, board, tuition, all of it's around 11,000.

[A]

11,000 a semester. So you pay $22,000 a year in taxes?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, got it. So you're in a tax deficit, which means the US Taxpayer is subsidizing your education. That's fine. I'm not faulting you for it. But this is why you're so defensive, is you're detached from the price, you're detached from the cost. It's easy to be defensive of something you're not paying for.

[B]

Yeah, but you have to understand that college is the reason people are able to progress so many fields of science.

[A]

What. What amazing breakthroughs of science are you pointing through? The fact that we now say men give birth at the American Medical association, or the fact that.

[B]

No, we say the research before the COVID 19 virus came from universities. There's research here in the neurodegeneration.

[A]

People should be locked in prison for what they did.

[B]

They're the one that vaccine.

[A]

The vaccine has killed hundreds of thousands of people in the Western world. Thank goodness I'm not vaccinated. And hold on.

[B]

Vaccines are completely healthy. They stop diseases.

[A]

Wait, you think the COVID shot is safe?

[B]

You think it's not safe? There's so much research pointing to get the COVID vaccine.

[A]

I hope you don't die suddenly, man. Thank you so much. Yes.

[B]

Hello.

[E]

How are you doing?

[A]

Good, how are you?

[E]

Yeah. So can you hear me all good?

[A]

Yeah. You can move it up.

[E]

Okay.

[A]

That works.

[E]

Okay. So scootering around, I saw some people with the shirt that says school. College is a scam.

[A]

It's a.

[E]

It's quite the statement. And could you elaborate a little bit more on that? Do you believe colleges is a scam?

[A]

Yeah. Half this audience, if you guys get a job, will end up getting a job that doesn't require a college degree. Okay, then. So they would get a job that requires a college degree. So, yeah. So any business that has a 50% rate of a customer being scammed will be shut down by the federal government for disenfranchising their customers. You went to chili's like, hey, 50% chance that our fries are going to give you food poisoning.

[E]

So if you look at college more than just getting a job, more as educating the population would you say that's a scam?

[A]

It depends on what you think college is and what it's become. Secondly, 41% of people that enter college don't graduate. The dropout rate's insanely high.

[E]

That's true.

[A]

Third, I mean, what exactly is being taught here? It's a great question. I mean, are you learning about the beauty of Western civilization and reading the Federalist Papers of Hamilton and Madison and Jay? And do you get a positive view of America or do you spend time on postmodernism of Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida and Gene Stefanik and Derrick Bell?

[E]

I'd say more networking.

[A]

Oh, networking.

[E]

Yeah. Okay, so before we go, dive deep into it, what's your definition of a scam?

[A]

Where a serious proportion of your customers are not given the value proposition that they pay for education. Right. Which they're not getting. Yeah.

[E]

You're saying so therefore.

[A]

Well, that's the question. You come here to get educated. Guys are going from the wrong thing. This is just a glorified credentialing exercise.

[E]

Yeah. And that's what you're paying for. Therefore it's not.

[A]

Okay, so it's not education. You're just paying for a piece of paper so you can get a job.

[E]

And education, I mean.

[A]

Oh, is it education?

[E]

So it is education.

[A]

So the education, what does that even, what does that mean to you?

[E]

Resources, Learning how to work, learning how.

[A]

To.

[E]

Move around a professional workforce.

[A]

You need to go to college to learn that.

[E]

Yes, yes. I'd say.

[A]

I think you're being, you're being scammed, man. Take it from someone who didn't go to college. You don't need any of that stuff. Yeah.

[E]

Would you, would you say a doctor would need a college degree?

[A]

Of course. But the vast majority of kids here aren't study to go to become a doctor.

[E]

How many engineers are in here?

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so how many people that are studying social or liberal sciences? Social sciences. Yeah. A fair amount.

[E]

Okay. It's a personal choice.

[A]

The vast majority of kids that go to college are social sciences, psychology, communications. About only 18 to 20% are studying engineering.

[E]

And you say they shouldn't go to college?

[A]

Well, it all depends. Again, it depends on what you're studying, why you're there, but you don't this idea that engineering you need a four year degree. You could also just learn to code in six months and work for Salesforce and earn $180,000 a year.

[E]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yes, it is true. They have to go to college to learn to code. Okay. That's my point. I'm not saying it's easy. You just need to go to college. Secondly, what does a manager of a Walmart, a Walmart Supercenter make a year? Anybody know $400,000 a year?

[E]

400,000?

[A]

Yeah. They don't require. Yeah, you guys should just go become. A manager of a Walmart doesn't require a college degree. What does the average plumber make in Scottsdale, Arizona? $115,000 a year. What does the average H Vac technician make in Henderson, Nevada? $75,000 a year. But those don't require college degrees. There are 11 million job openings in this country right now that don't require college degrees. We are oversupplying college.

[E]

But yet you're here taking advantage of college and college students.

[A]

Am I taking advantage? Is that what I'm doing?

[E]

You're taking advantage of the space, taking advantage of the students. Not in a way of like, intellectually taking advantage.

[A]

It's like going to a place to tell people you're being scammed. If you call that taking advantage, then so be it.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, you're taking advantage as you're taking my time. You're taking everyone's time and you're volunteering your time, too.

[A]

I didn't force you. Okay?

[E]

Sorry. Yeah, you're taking our time.

[F]

Fair enough.

[A]

I do this also in other places than campuses, too.

[E]

Yeah, no, but then you're here and then you're saying college is a scam.

[A]

It is. Half of you guys will end up getting a job where your entire college debt burden means nothing. You will get a job that does not require a college degree at all. You're four years wasted. You shouldn't have come here in the first place. Half.

[E]

Well, I disagree with you.

[A]

That's fair. I hope it's worth it. This is Lane Schoenberger, chief investment officer and founding partner of Y Refi. It has been an honor and a privilege to partner with Turningpoint and for Charlie to endorse us. His endorsement means the world to us. And we look forward to continuing our partnership with Turning Point for years to come. Now hear Charlie, in his own words, tell you about why Refi. I'm going to tell you guys about why refi.com, that is yrefy.com why refi is incredible. Private student loan debt in America totals about $300 billion. Why refi is refinancing distress or defaulted private student loans. You can finally take control of your student loan situation with a plan that works for your monthly budget. Go to yrefi.com that is whyrefi.com do you have a co borrower? Why refi can get them released from the loan. You can skip a payment up to 12 times without penalty. It may not be available in all 50 states. Go to yrefi.com that is yrefy.com let's face it, if you have distress or default to student loans, it can be overwhelming because of privacy. Loan debt. So many people feel stuck. Go to yrefi.com that is yrefy.com Private student loan debt relief. Why refi.com.

[C]

I just want to talk to you about that book. It was a good segue.

[A]

Oh, did you read it?

[C]

No, but I want your thoughts like just face to face. Why do you think college is a scam?

[A]

Okay, so half of this audience, if you get a job, will get a job that doesn't require a college degree. 41% of kids that enter college will not graduate. And the vast majority of kids, 60 to 70% that go to college, I believe, study things that are completely worthless, meaningless and don't enrich society at all.

[C]

But is that the fault of the student or the college? Because I looked in the stats for this, it's usually because they either don't have the finances to support themselves going to college, they don't. They have mental health problems that lead them to dropping out or stress or their family's not supporting them. So is that the fault of college that they pick bad degrees? Is that the fault of the college that they can't support themselves? Right. It's like getting a gym membership and then saying, well, you know, I don't want to actually go work out. It's the fault of the gym.

[A]

So a good question. So first, the 41% of kids that drop out, the federal government will fully underwrite any four year college through fafsa. You know that through a student loan. Meaning. So if anyone has financial difficulty, that's not really a thing. The federal government will fully grant you your loan to any four year university. Right. So you might have, you might not want to take on that student loan burden. You might not want to take that on. But that's number one. Number two, I can't speak to the mental health issues. I doubt that 41% of the kids that graduate in that number all have mental health issues. But maybe that's the case. I'm not sure. I don't know that number. But let's talk about the institution itself. So everyone in the audience here, how many of you have had to Take classes that are a waste of time, that you wish you didn't have to take, that are a waste of money and that every single hand goes up. Look around, look around, look around, look around. They're scamming every kid in this audience. They are forcing them to take classes that make them poorer, that take up their time in order to get the credential. That is a institutional scam. And by the way, every other part of life is all about your own customization. Your Netflix account, how you get your burrito bowl from, how you dress, your Amazon cart is you are in charge. But you come to college and they say you must go take these 3, 4, 5 classes that are very expensive, especially for you out of state students, to go further into debt, study things that don't matter, to find jobs that don't exist. That sounds like a scam.

[C]

At least in my personal experience. Right. Like maybe some colleges, they're all like, they all like, they're all like Nambian Gender studies. Right? They might all be that. But I would say.

[A]

What are you studying?

[C]

I'm studying economics.

[A]

Great. Okay.

[C]

And what I would say is that I have a great levity in choices of classes I want to take. Even if, like there's a bunch of general education classes, I have a great flexibility in the class I want to take. It's up to the student if they want to take meaningless classes given their credit limit.

[A]

Okay, but I mean, I would just speculate that this school still has specific criteria of classes. Right? Am I correct? Yeah, you have to take a diversity class. That sounds like a scam. Well, they are robbing you to take a diversity class.

[C]

It's actually not what you typically think.

[A]

I think, I mean, I'm taking. Is it true? Do you guys have to take a diversity class?

[C]

No, this is, this is true. This is true.

[A]

All right, so that's a scam. Like, let's be clear. Diversity class scam.

[C]

Can you define what a scam is?

[A]

When you are, you are getting ripped off of your, with your money, your time, your resources, either beyond what is a market rate or against your will. So I'll give you an example. If you guys want to fly to New York and Spirit Airlines says we're going to charge you $2,500 for a one way ticket, I think we all could agree flying spirit Airlines for $2,500 is a scam. Like you know it when you see it.

[C]

I mean, it depends on how you view the worth of college. Like if you, the federal, the Federal Reserve for San Francisco gave a released a newsletter discussing the actual finances behind is college actually worth it? And they found that by age 40 you recoup all at the average student.

[A]

Recoups all their costs if they graduate.

[C]

If, if they graduate. And even accounting for that, other economists also stayed no.

[A]

So that, that's an important study. If you take out the top 10%, that's not the case. So 10% of what? Top 10% of graduates and income earners. So the top 10% end up flourishing with a college degree. The other 90% do not. Do you know that there are 11 million job openings in this country that pay $75,000 a year, that require six weeks of training, that require muscular labor or using your hands. 11 million job openings. Now, a lot of you guys are in college because you've been pushed into college saying that you must get the piece of paper. You might get the piece of paper when there are very good paying jobs, 11 million of them. But either your society, your parents or your own choices are no, I want to go to college. I want to go after that piece of paper. My contention is that there are way better options out there for a lot of students. Not every student, but almost every, a lot of other students.

[C]

Charlie, I think a part of your core rhetoric, there's actually some real truth there that like I think a lot of there's people are getting really just pressured to go to college even if they make poor choices. I'm just saying that even while you're in college, you can make better choices to make yourself a better choice.

[A]

I totally agree. Do you think most people do?

[C]

I know some that are making great choices. I know some are making terrible choices.

[A]

So let's think about this. Why do you think let's just say most make terrible choices. Would you say that's the case?

[C]

I'll give you 40 to 60.

[A]

Why do you think that is? Maybe because the institution incentivizes bad choices. It's easy to coast and still graduate. It's easy just to check the boxes. Right. It's not an institution designed around excellence. It's around. Let's get you through the mill as quickly as possible. Get the piece of paper, pay your bill. Thank you very much.

[C]

But do you think that the actual the culture around students going to college could change instead around their decision making?

[A]

I think we need way less kids going to college. The institution itself is so broken, let's be clear. Forced diversity, classes, dei, all that stuff, it's nonsense. If it was really college, really should be closer to what Hillsdale College is, which is about wisdom, beauty, truth, goodness, not just about job preparedness, but that's, We've lost that completely. If it's about doctors, lawyers, engineers and the skills, of course, but you know that it's way beyond that. I mean, people going to, not to pick on you. But you're studying economics. That's terrific. That's a good reason to go to college. It's not the best reason, I'll be honest. But it's a good reason. Right? I mean, economics is a serious discipline. It's a real science. You know, we need people really rigorously studying that. So. Okay, we just have a difference of opinion.

[C]

I just want to ask you a question.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

What would you do? Like, if you're a policymaker, I would.

[A]

Defund all the colleges in the country, make them stand on their own two feet with either tuition or donor money. Taxpayers should not be subsidizing higher education, period. Survive on your own. All right, thank you.

[D]

So you said that economics was not the best thing to study, in your opinion. Like when I, when I put my hand up, the question I wanted to ask was like, what do you actually think the best thing to study is?

[A]

Again, if you're going to a super left wing college and you're trying to just get the piece of paper and credential, I mean, you should go at what the college is. It's if it's known for, if it's best at. And so I don't know what UW's known for what it's best at, but I mean, Computer science, Right. I would imagine the Paul Allen School, is that right or am I correct? This is up top, my head. Is that right? It's right here. Right. Yeah. So, but yeah, those fields in particular, but sociology or the, or the life sciences or soft social sciences typically do not have as much of an ROI on the time or the money spent.

[D]

And so you.

[A]

Economics is in the middle ground there.

[D]

And so you said that you would defund colleges, state colleges on a national level.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And so basically that would mean that there are no subsidies going out to students, like in state students or anything like that.

[A]

I mean, you don't get to determine what the states do, but yes. Federally, all federal grants should end completely. Yes.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Make these institutions survive on their own. If they're such, if they're so wonderful and they're so great, then make it work. Make your, make your numbers work.

[D]

And so then what is the difference between a state college and a private college, privately owned college?

[A]

Well, Estate. So UW gets subsidized in state tuition here, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you go to.

[D]

That's why. That's why I'm paying only.

[A]

No, for sure.

[D]

12,000.

[A]

No, for sure. But you're paying it back in taxes. Let's be clear. Right. So taxes make that possible. And your parents. Or you paid that in for 18 years, so you get that back. But a private school, I don't know, is there University of Seattle. Is that a thing or. Okay, Which I'm guessing is private.

[D]

Seattle U. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. That they do not get money from Olympia to subsidize the tuition. So they have to stand on their own two feet. Right. So they have higher tuition and they have to justify to donors how they're doing every single year, but they still might get some federal money. Does that make sense?

[D]

Yes. And you're saying this on the grounds of required, like diversity credits?

[A]

No, I just think. I mean, look around. Has college enriched our society? Young people are the most depressed, they're the most anxious, the most alcohol addicted, drug addicted, least married, most angry generation in American history.

[D]

Is that all college?

[A]

Where does that, where does it come from, though? I mean, they're the most college educated, most credentialed generation in history. Where do these ideas come from?

[D]

I would argue. I would argue that they come from the fact that there are too many people and not enough jobs. And to stand out of the crowd, to stand out of the masses, you need to get yourself some credentials.

[A]

Oh, I totally agree. So you want to stand out. Don't go to college then you're not.

[D]

Going to get hired.

[A]

Worked for me. Work for you, Start your own business. By the way, that's not true. Half of employers no longer require a college degree requirement.

[D]

Well, okay, I'm talking about more specialized jobs.

[A]

That's. That's fair. Yeah.

[D]

As far as trades go, okay, that makes sense.

[A]

11 million trader to 11 million job openings for trades. Yeah.

[D]

You're using your muscles to get your daily wage.

[A]

It's not, it's not just muscles though. Like for advanced engineering is not easy. That's not just picking up lumber and putting on one side of the warehouse. That's very specific. Very. You know, and by the way, you can learn to code in eight weeks and earn 100 grand a year.

[D]

You can.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

You don't need to go to University of Washington.

[D]

The thing is though, the thing is though, that you are not going to get hired over somebody that has graduated from uw.

[A]

You'd be surprised. Degree you've been Sold a lie. You've been surprised. You'd be really surprised. Employers less and less likely actually want to hire kids from college because they work the least, they're the most entitled and the quickest to run to HR about problems and mispronouning people. You be, you'd be surprised. No, it's true for like the big, big firms like Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, like they obviously want you to have a college degree, but mid major companies, mid level companies increasingly don't care. They care about can you do the job? Like do you have any sort of skill? Do you have, are you gonna work really hard? Do you have good character?

[D]

That makes sense for like startups and such.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. However, here's the thing, just starting to rub. But after like five years, nobody cares where you went to college. Just so we're clear. Sorry to interrupt, but yeah, yeah.

[D]

Oh good.

[A]

I mean we have, we just have a disagreement here. My whole point is to try to push the boundaries of discussion to make you guys open your eyes and realize you guys are getting ripped off by the institution here and that's it.

[D]

So yeah, so I do not believe that I'm getting ripped off because in my field it is very important, especially with how oversaturated it is. Right now I'm studying CS Computer science.

[A]

Yes, there's tons of jobs in commute, but I mean there might not be though.

[D]

I mean there aren't, that's the point.

[A]

And I might take all your jobs away sometime soon by the way, to stand out.

[D]

The whole point is that here and elsewhere around the country we're doing a bunch of research on how computer scientists and like engineers in general are still going to be useful with the rise of AI other elsewhere. You don't learn stuff like that. You learn the basics of programming. You've maybe heard about like the Harvard eight week course. Right. That you were probably talking about just a second ago. However, when you actually do take that course, you don't get a lot of the reasoning skills, a lot of the practical application skills and a lot of the things that I'm learning every day in my classes. And so the fact that you can learn it in eight weeks and get a job because you have the qualifications. It's true. Maybe. But in the market that we have right now, where the job market is super oversaturated, there are a ton of people getting computer science degrees.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

These employers, most of the like high level ones that are going to pay you a lot of money are not looking for somebody who has the Base level qualifications. They're looking for more than that. And one more thing is that, that to get these jobs coming straight out of college, even with a degree in computer science from U Dub, which U Dub is known for computer science, you are going to have to have years and years of internship and job experience in most cases. Otherwise you're going to be doing the basic of the base level.

[A]

Fair enough. So we just have a difference of a worldview. I say why not graduate from high school, learn to code and go beg for an internship and bypass the college thing completely. You'd be amazed at how willing people are to help with that. Again, you guys have been largely sold a lie that you need to march through this place for four years and check the boxes and get the piece of paper and it's been dangled in front of you. I'm here to tell you, and I'm only 10 years older than you, that the world doesn't really care you went for, you went to college. They care. When you come out of college as your first job, once you're in the door, it really is rather irrelevant. But we disagree. So.

[D]

Okay, that's fair. I have one last question.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And just answer this and I'll go. What is your definition of a woman?

[A]

A woman is an adult female with XX chromosomes.

[D]

Okay. All right.

[A]

What would you say a woman is?

[D]

I don't want to answer that question.

[C]

Question.

[A]

Thank you. What is a woman? You know, you're studying computer science, you can't tell me what a woman is. Okay.

[F]

Unfortunately, don't have a question based off any statistics, just based off observations that I've seen. I know you mentioned a lot about students or that college might be a bit of a waste of time because there's still opportunities that can be found outside of this game. Okay. Yeah, there you go. Can you just touch a little bit on like where you think all the students, if every student didn't go to college, where their jobs would be so.

[A]

Sure, again, they don't tell you guys this because you've been lied to and you guys have been propagandized. But there's 11 million job openings right now in this country don't require a college degree that pays $75,000 or more a year, that only requires six weeks of training.

[F]

And most of those are in what.

[A]

Kind of advanced engineering or like just say advanced manufacturing. I'm sorry, working with your hands. Like, for example, manager of a Walmart pays minimum $250,000 a year, upwards of $400,000 a year.

[F]

Okay, so this is where my question that doesn't come with any stats come into play, like the quality of life. So I major in construction management. I'm in the construction field quite often. I see a lot of these people that are doing this hard labor. The way of life that they live often seems kind of miserable. Like they're going home every night, drinking every single day. They miss their family. The people that are in the oil fields, like, how do you kind of. What do you kind of view on that?

[A]

Yeah, look, muscular labor comes at a big cost. Not every One of those 11 million jobs are the job you're describing. But I would say that if you go visit a data center, they're not exactly having a great life either. They're going home and they're popping Xanaxes and Prozacs and, you know, drinking white wine until they pass out. So, you know, before you just criticize every muscular label. Not criticize, but, you know, say that. But I mean, look, construction management, I'm glad you're studying that. I don't think you need to go to college for that.

[F]

Yeah, I think. I think my reason for going to college with this right now is because it's just going to put me a few steps ahead where a lot of these people that are in the.

[A]

You might be right. I don't think you are. I think. I think four years of actually running job sites would be way better than actually sitting in a class learning how to run job sites. I'm not trying to criticize you. It's just my opinion. And I come from a construction family. Like, nothing. Nothing replaces experience in construction.

[F]

No, I completely understand.

[A]

And so you're going to get your degree and they're going to be like, well, how many job sites have you walked? Right? Can you read it? Can you read a floor plan? Which probably can, Right? You know, can you put up drywall? Have you actually. And I'm sure you've done all that stuff, but that's my contention. I just don't. I don't think it's as necessary as people think it is.

[C]

Yes.

[F]

I think my. My point is, like, for me going to college, I'm going to get into a position like project manager, superintendent, whatever it might be, where a lot of these people, like, if I don't go to college, I'm probably going to be doing carpentry, painting, like drywall, all the other stuff that is less desirable. And that obviously comes with more sacrifice. That's my only points.

[C]

Cool.

[A]

Thanks, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk. Com.