Podcast Summary: The Charlie Kirk Show
Episode: Gordon G. Chang | How We Can Stop China
Date: July 18, 2020
Host: Charlie Kirk
Guest: Gordon G. Chang
Overview
In this episode, Charlie Kirk sits down with renowned China expert Gordon G. Chang, author of The Coming Collapse of China. Together, they discuss the multifaceted threat posed by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) to the United States and the global order. Their wide-ranging conversation explores Chinese subversion, economic strategy, American complicity, and what individuals and policymakers can do to push back against CCP influence. The episode is candid, direct, and challenges mainstream assumptions about the inevitability of China's rise.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Framing China as America’s "Greatest Enemy"
- Kirk argues without equivocation that China is not merely a rival, but an "enemy" of the United States, citing its infiltration of American institutions and aggressive global posture.
- Chang concurs, referencing a "People’s Daily” article calling for a “people’s war” against the U.S. (02:46).
"China’s challenge to the US is across the board and it is existential. They are trying to do everything possible to undermine us."
— Gordon Chang (02:55)
2. China’s Methods: Subversion Over Direct Confrontation
- Discussion of “Three Warfares”: subversion, lawfare, and psychological warfare (05:30).
- CCP’s deep entrenchment in American media, tech, sports, and education (e.g., advertising deals, Hollywood censorship, NBA partnerships, Confucius Institutes).
- The goal is not overt war, but undermining U.S. society from within, ultimately to supplant the rules-based international order with a Chinese-led system (Tianxia).
"What China is trying to do is to overthrow the Westphalian system and to replace it with something the Chinese emperors were familiar with, which is worldwide Chinese rule."
— Gordon Chang (06:28)
3. The Role of American Elites in Facilitating China’s Rise
- Kirk and Chang discuss how Democrat and Republican leaders enabled Chinese expansion, often motivated by “hypnosis or complicity” surrounding global trade and economic integration.
- Myths were perpetuated that trading with China would liberalize them—instead, China's model became more repressive and anti-American (10:41).
- Chang calls this "the greatest mistake that the United States has made in the course of its history" (08:50).
"We strengthened a hostile regime. And instead of becoming benign, that regime became even more belligerent and hostile."
— Gordon Chang (09:32)
4. Economic Realities: Is China’s Growth Sustainable?
- Chang unpacks the “house of cards” nature of China’s banking and economic system, relying on continuous foreign investment and engagement (12:18).
- Prior to COVID-19, Chinese companies were defaulting on bonds; the pandemic further exposed systemic weaknesses.
- The U.S. system, driven by individual freedom and market incentives, is more resilient than China’s top-down totalitarian approach.
"What they’ve been able to do looks unsustainable, and eventually it will be... The world is decoupling from China for a number of reasons, and we’re starting to see the problems in the Chinese system become exposed."
— Gordon Chang (13:00)
5. CCP Control and the Suppression of Liberty
- Chang explains the rise of the Social Credit System and mass surveillance apparatus (15:21).
- The CCP’s greatest fear isn’t foreign adversaries but its own people demanding autonomy—a fear reflected in censoring the "three T's": Tiananmen, Tibet, and Taiwan.
"Every Chinese resident gets a social credit score... Those who have low scores will not be able to take one step outside their doors."
— Gordon Chang (16:30)
6. Is the CCP Model Sustainable?
- Both agree that authoritarianism is ultimately unsustainable because "communism goes against life" (18:42).
- Chang cites Vaclav Havel’s insight: "Communism goes against life,” arguing the system will eventually collapse due to internal contradictions and external pressures, especially as global sentiment shifts (18:42).
"It is only until Ronald Reagan became president. He said, we win, they lose. He stood for freedom and democracy. And we know what happened."
— Gordon Chang (27:23)
7. What Should Americans Do?
- Policy recommendations:
- Cut trade with China
- Prohibit investment and technical cooperation
- Implement sanctions akin to those against Iran and Russia
- Make ending CCP rule an explicit policy goal (22:28)
- Individual action:
- “Moral purchasing”—avoid buying Chinese products
- Demand accountability from lawmakers
- Recognize CCP infiltration in American institutions
"It should be the policy of the United States to end the rule of the Communist Party. We can get along with China, but we can't get along with the Communist Party of China."
— Gordon Chang (22:37)
8. The COVID-19 Pandemic as a Turning Point
- Accusations that the CCP knowingly misled the world about the transmissibility of COVID-19 and impeded efforts to contain it, worsening the global crisis (22:28-24:24).
- Emphasizes the magnitude of American deaths and damage, framing it as direct consequence of CCP actions (24:24).
"If Chinese leaders had said nothing... that would have been grossly irresponsible. But what they tried to do was to convince the world that it was not human to human transmissible... and pressured [against] travel restrictions and quarantines."
— Gordon Chang (23:03–23:40)
9. Urgency for a New U.S. Policy Approach
- Kirk warns that unless there is decisive action, the U.S. will become subservient to China within 15 years (25:59, 27:20).
- The stakes are framed in existential terms—freedom and democracy vs. totalitarianism.
- Both stress the need for leadership that rejects appeasement and pursues “aggressive” containment and confrontation.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- "China’s challenge to the US is across the board and it is existential... This is an existential challenge to the United States and to every other country on the planet." — Gordon Chang (02:55, 06:29)
- "We strengthened a hostile regime. And instead of becoming benign, that regime became even more belligerent and hostile." — Gordon Chang (09:32)
- "The CCP probably is going to watch this interview. I hope they do because I hope that they realize they're going to lose and we are going to win because we have truth and light and liberty on our side." — Charlie Kirk (29:25)
- "Communism goes against life." — Gordon Chang quoting Vaclav Havel (18:42, 29:46)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- China as Existential Threat: 02:46 – 04:05
- Subversive Strategy & CCP Infiltration: 05:30 – 07:21
- American Complicity & Economic Policy: 07:21 – 12:18
- Banking & Economic Fragility: 12:18 – 15:21
- CCP Authoritarian Controls (Social Credit, Surveillance): 15:21 – 17:28
- Sustainability of the CCP Model, Internal Instability: 17:28 – 20:42
- Action Steps for Individuals and Policymakers: 22:28 – 24:24
- COVID-19 Cover-up as CCP Malfeasance: 22:28 – 24:24
- Final Thoughts and Cold War Analogies: 27:20 – 29:46
Conclusion
Charlie Kirk and Gordon Chang articulate a strong, clear warning: the Chinese Communist Party poses an existential threat to American freedom, prosperity, and global norms. They debunk myths of inevitable Chinese ascendancy, detail the economic and political vulnerabilities of the CCP, and urge a sea change in U.S. policy—calling for economic decoupling, sanctions, and public awareness. The message is urgent: the window of action is narrow, and the stakes are nothing less than the survival of liberty.
Follow Gordon G. Chang: @GordonGChang on Twitter
Book: The Coming Collapse of China