If You Found Out God Was Real, Would You Change Your Behavior? ft. Barak Lurie

Summary

Podcast Summary: "If You Found Out God Was Real, Would You Change Your Behavior?" ft. Barack Lurie

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Charlie Kirk Show
• Host: Charlie Kirk
• Guest: Barack Lurie
• Episode Title: If You Found Out God Was Real, Would You Change Your Behavior?
• Release Date: May 22, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Presentation (00:00 - 01:42)

Charlie Kirk opens the episode by introducing the topic of atheism and its real-world implications, emphasizing a conversation with Barack Lurie, the author of the "Atheism Kills" series. Kirk briefly mentions Lurie's books and encourages listeners to engage with Turning Point USA.

Notable Quote:

• Charlie Kirk: "Buckle up, everybody. Here we go." [00:40]

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Barack Lurie's Background and Motivation (01:42 - 07:07)

Barack Lurie discusses his transformation from an atheist at age 11 to a devout believer. He shares how a shift in his perspective occurred during his time at Stanford University, leading him to write his thesis initially supporting atheism but later reversing his stance after deep reflection and reading works like Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "I was an atheist at 11 years old. I decided I must be brilliant because of that." [02:05]
• Barack Lurie: "Reading the Brothers Karamazov showed me that there is no free will without God." [06:50]

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The Impact of Atheism on Society (07:07 - 22:26)

Lurie elaborates on his belief that atheism leads to moral decay and societal destruction, drawing parallels to historical regimes like fascism and communism, which he attributes to their atheistic foundations. He argues that without belief in God, concepts such as truth, logic, family, and free speech are undermined.

Key Points:

• Atheism and Historical Regimes: Lurie connects atheism to the rise of destructive governments, emphasizing that Hitler and communist leaders like Stalin were not Christians and sought to eradicate religion to consolidate power.
• Moral Relativism: He contends that atheism fosters a lack of accountability, leading individuals to engage in unethical behaviors without fear of divine judgment.
• Fine-Tuning Argument: Lurie presents the improbability of the universe, Earth, and life arising by chance, advocating for the existence of a Creator based on statistical improbability.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "Atheism is center of all destruction and killing and mayhem." [02:05]
• Barack Lurie: "The probabilities of the universe and life forming by themselves are so obscene." [12:14]
• Barack Lurie: "If morality is relative, why don’t we just do whatever we want without consequences?" [24:50]

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Debating Atheism and Evolution (22:26 - 29:00)

The discussion shifts to the multiverse theory and evolution. Lurie criticizes the multiverse as an unfounded and non-evidential argument used to counter the fine-tuning debate. He also rejects evolution, advocating for intelligent design and creationism.

Key Points:

• Multiverse Critique: Lurie dismisses the multiverse as a "cowardly argument" lacking empirical evidence.
• Evolution vs. Creation: He firmly supports the creation of man, expressing skepticism towards evolutionary explanations for intelligence and life.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "Multiverse is a manufactured argument with zero evidence." [15:35]
• Barack Lurie: "I believe in creation of man." [14:32]

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Atheism's Definition and Historical Context (29:00 - 33:00)

Lurie defines atheism as the denial of the Judeo-Christian God and explores its historical emergence in the late 19th century, linking it to scientific and philosophical movements primarily in German universities. He emphasizes the destructive outcomes of atheistic ideologies, noting that true atheism was rare in ancient times.

Key Points:

• Definition of Atheism: Atheism denies the existence of the Judeo-Christian God and rejects living by its teachings.
• Historical Emergence: Atheism became prominent in the 1880s, influenced by German scientific and philosophical advancements.
• Atheism and Nazism: Contrary to popular belief, Hitler was not a Christian and actively sought to eliminate Christianity in favor of his own ideology.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "Atheism principally did not exist until the 1880s as a practical reality." [28:51]
• Barack Lurie: "Hitler was not Christian; he had contempt for Christianity and Judaism." [30:19]

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Moral Accountability and Atheism (33:00 - 43:58)

Lurie delves deeper into the ethical implications of atheism, arguing that without belief in God, individuals lack intrinsic motivation for moral behavior, leading to actions like adultery, theft, and even mass violence. He contrasts this with the moral framework provided by belief in God, which instills accountability and a sense of duty.

Key Points:

• Lack of Accountability: Atheism removes the inherent accountability provided by belief in a higher power, making unethical behavior easier.
• Moral Relativism: Without absolute morals, individuals might justify harmful actions for personal gain.
• Correlation Between Atheism and Crime: Lurie claims strong correlations between atheism and high rates of unethical behavior, though he acknowledges these as correlations rather than causations.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "Non-accountability is the greatest addiction; all other addictions flow from that." [19:24]
• Barack Lurie: "If you don't believe in free will, then you don't believe you have agency and therefore you don't have accountability for your actions." [17:57]

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Defense of Judeo-Christian Morality (43:58 - 44:39)

In response to Charlie's question about the necessity of defining which God is referenced, Lurie clarifies that his focus is on the Judeo-Christian God. He emphasizes the importance of this specific theological framework in providing a universal moral language essential for civilization.

Key Points:

• Specificity of God: Lurie emphasizes belief in the Judeo-Christian God, not polytheistic or other religious conceptions.
• Universal Morality: Without the Judeo-Christian moral foundation, he argues, society lacks a cohesive moral structure.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "I am talking about the Judeo-Christian God. Judaism and Christianity share the Old Testament." [33:41]
• Barack Lurie: "Atheism kills, destroys, and steals." [43:58]

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The Role of Belief in Changing Behavior (44:39 - 44:56)

Charlie Kirk poses the central question: "If God was real, would you change your behavior?" Lurie responds by distinguishing between belief and certainty, advocating that knowing God exists would significantly alter one's behavior due to the awareness of divine accountability.

Key Points:

• Belief vs. Certainty: Lurie differentiates between simply believing in God and having undeniable knowledge of God’s existence.
• Behavioral Change: Knowing God exists would lead to profound ethical transformations driven by accountability and moral obligations.

Notable Quotes:

• Charlie Kirk: "If God was real, would you change your behavior?" [38:52]
• Barack Lurie: "If you know there's a God who is always watching, you're changing your behavior in more ways than one." [39:22]

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Optimism for the Future and Closing Remarks (44:56 - End)

Lurie expresses optimism regarding the resurgence of religious adherence, citing demographic trends and the example of Israel's shifting political landscape towards conservatism due to increased religious populations. He reiterates the comprehensive harm caused by atheism and promotes his book series as essential reading for understanding the necessity of belief in God.

Key Points:

• Resurgence of Religion: Religious groups are having more children and maintaining higher growth rates, leading to increased religious influence in future generations.
• Impact on Society: As more people embrace faith, societal morals and structures aligned with Judeo-Christian values are expected to strengthen.
• Promotion of Lurie's Work: Lurie encourages listeners to read his books to grasp the full scope of atheism's destructive effects.

Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "Gen Z is now more religious than any other generation." [42:31]
• Barack Lurie: "Atheism kills, destroys, steals. It is a very comprehensive sense." [43:58]

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Conclusion

In this episode of The Charlie Kirk Show, Charlie Kirk engages in a thorough discussion with Barack Lurie about the detrimental effects of atheism on society. Lurie presents a strong case for the necessity of belief in the Judeo-Christian God, arguing that without it, moral decay and societal destruction are inevitable. He ties historical examples to his thesis, emphasizing the correlation between atheism and unethical behavior while advocating for a return to religious moral frameworks. The conversation underscores the importance of accountability, free will, and universal morality as foundations of a stable and ethical civilization.

Final Notable Quotes:

• Barack Lurie: "God is a verb more than it is just a belief." [44:02]
• Charlie Kirk: "Atheism Kills. Atheism Destroys. Atheism Steals." [43:58]

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For More Information:

• Barack Lurie's Books: Atheism Kills, Atheism Destroys, Atheism Steals
• Visit: Charliekirk.com

Transcript

[Charlie Kirk]

Hey, everybody. Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio. What are your thoughts about atheism? A terrific conversation with Barack Lurie about the real world implications of atheism in a way we've never talked about it before on this program. Encourage you guys to listen to this and also check out Barack's book, atheism Steals and Atheism Kills. Get involved with Turning Point [e-mail] that is tpusa.com Become a member today. Members.charliekirk.com that is members.com and also check out the charliekirkstore.com that is charliekirkstore.com for all the merch that we wear on this program. Charliekirkstore.com Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

[Barack Lurie]

Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

[Dennis Prager]

I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turn Point usa.

[Charlie Kirk]

We will not embrace the ideas that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we.

[Charlie Kirk]

Are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble gold [e-mail] that is noblegoldinvestments.com it's where I buy all of my gold. Go to noblegoldinvestments.com okay, everybody, very special guest here today about a topic near and dear to my heart and to all of you.

[Unknown Speaker]

But atheism, atheism, I think, is dying in the West. We'll talk about that. Joining us now is a friend of mine, Barack Lurie.

[Charlie Kirk]

Barack, great to see you.

[Barack Lurie]

Thanks for having me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not to be confused with Barack Obama. I'm sure you get that a lot.

[Barack Lurie]

All the time. I do not like it.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm sure you don't. No. You're much wiser and you believe in God. I don't know if Barack Obama does or not, but okay. So you're the author of a very interesting and important series of books. Tell us about it.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, it's called the Atheism Kills series. There are three volumes. The first one came out in 2017 called the Atheism Kills. The next one was in 2019, 20, 20. Atheism Destroys. And the last one that is about to be wrapped up, atheism steals. And what I do there is I try to show the dangers and the consequences of a world without God. And it's not very pretty. It's going to be a terrifying world if we were to actually adopt atheism as a governing structure. And it's not hypothetical for me to say that we have ample examples of that, both in the world of fascism and in communism. They were so overwhelming, the evidence was so overwhelming, that this is what happens when you operate a government without God. It's a little bit like that old egg commercial. I don't know if you remember it, Charlie, but you put these eggs in a skillet, and this is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Well, this is your world on atheism. It's not a pretty one. I show in these books that atheism kills on an epic level beyond belief. Hundreds of millions of people have died in the 20th century and are continuing to do so. That has been evidenced by Hitler's reign and fascism, generally speaking. Hitler was not a Christian, by the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Way, and I do want to dive into that later. That's one that I get quite often.

[Barack Lurie]

Oh, it's an easy response. Communism, of course, was by definition atheist. You had to be an atheist in order to actually adopt communism. It was the engine of communism. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Soviet dissident, said that atheism was the central pivot of communism. It could not exist without atheism. Naturally, they wanted to get rid of religion altogether because religion was the ultimate threat to the government. They wanted you to completely be subservient to the government systems, and therefore what you have to do is just abandon religion altogether. And that's what they largely successfully did in the Soviet Union and to some extent in China. But these are really horrific regimes. And we need to understand that aside from that which is bad enough, it also destroys everything else that we value. Things like truth and logic and science, the concept of family, concept of relationships, the concept of free speech, for example. All these things derive because of our belief in God and. And our values in that, even our sense of beauty, our sense of storytelling, of music and art. None of these things would exist without God. And one of the things that I always love to ask people to do is to simply ask this question, why are things the way they are? Right. Why do we love music? And if I were to ask you, Charlie, what music do you like? I'm going to get an answer?

[Unknown Speaker]

Classical.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, you might like classical, somebody might like hip hop, somebody like rock and roll. Likewise, if I were to turn to you and I said, you know, Charlie, I got a great story for you. You lean forward and you say, uh huh. You won't respond by saying, oh, thanks, Brock, but I'm not a story kind of guy. Right, but that only exists among humans. We don't see that in animals whatsoever. There is no music in the animal kingdom, no storytelling, no sense of the past or the future, no sense of ancestry or descendants, no sense of obligation. And these are questions worth asking. Why do we have them?

[Unknown Speaker]

So I love all this, by the way. As you know, this is partially my life's work too, inspired by our mutual friend Dennis Prager, which is arguing for the necessity of God. Not just the existence of God, which I want to build out. But let's take a step back. What about you? What got you into this line of work? And then I have a more technical question. So who are you and why are you interested in atheism and its consequences so much?

[Barack Lurie]

Well, in many ways I'm fighting myself. When I was much younger, I was an atheist. I decided When I was 11 years old I was an atheist. And I decided I must be brilliant because of that, because I figured it out and nobody else could. Then I went to college and I went to Stanford and I decided to write my thesis on proving that religion has caused more wars and deaths and destruction than anything else. And I said about to just go ahead numerically to prove my point. But as I went about this, Charlie, I discovered I was wrong, like dead wrong. And I was embarrassed and I decided that my thesis would be entirely the opposite, proving how indeed atheism was the center of all destruction and killing and mayhem.

[Unknown Speaker]

And what really changed your mind?

[Barack Lurie]

Reading the Brothers Karamazov by Dusty Essay.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, what about that?

[Barack Lurie]

He showed me that I was shallow in my thinking as an atheist, that really there is no free will. There is no sense of consciousness without God. And I believed in free will.

[Unknown Speaker]

But I'm told nothing good ever comes out of Russia. It's a terrible place. I'm told that it's just a gas station with nuclear weapons.

[Barack Lurie]

Right, there you go.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm kidding. I'm having a hard time. Russian literature can be very dark, but very telling.

[Barack Lurie]

It's dark. And I always say, Dan, you know, Dostoevsky is fantastic because, know, people think that he's very brooding and dark.

[Unknown Speaker]

I haven't spent much time with him. I know the concepts, obviously, but.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, but he's actually. It's very uplifting, these books. Surprisingly so. Crime Punishment. Fantastic book. Very uplifting in the end. Same with Karamazov. But I read these books and I. And I decided that I was really a believer. But here was the problem I had. You know, in college, you end up kind of milling about with a lot of philosophical issues. You meet some religious people. I knew some. These four guys who were evangelical Christians. And we'd always banter about the existence of God. And I said there was no God, and they said there was and such, but we were very respectful of each other. I have to pat myself on the back about that. And then when I discovered that there was a God and I remember going. I decided that I was going to go to tell them that I believed in God. And as I did so, my. My legs felt very heavy. I couldn't walk. It was the weirdest thing. I didn't know why this was happening to me, but I figured out the reason why. I realized that things were about to change. This is changing your belief to understand that there's a God, a creator, somebody who loves you, something that you are responsible for. It changes your entire sense of obligation. Everything changes about you. Yeah. And so this is not like I decided I'm going to change my football loyalty to the Patriots versus the Steelers. Right. It's not like that. This is a world change. Everything had to change, and that's why they felt so heavy. But since then, like I said, I've been fighting myself. These books that I write is more of a way to be able to convince myself I'm the best fighter for. For atheism. Oddly enough. I always say I can out atheist, any atheist. I've got all the arguments down. I sometimes improve people's atheist arguments and then I shoot it down.

[Unknown Speaker]

You have to help me. Yeah. I encountered all the time on campuses.

[Barack Lurie]

So I encourage people to really ask themselves why there is a God. Seek out God. It's wonderful to believe in God. It really is. But to find him, that's another story.

[Unknown Speaker]

Would you call yourself a Christian?

[Barack Lurie]

I know I'm Jewish.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. But I deeply, deeply appreciate. And Christianity likewise.

[Unknown Speaker]

I just, I wanted to. Would you say that you came in contact with God or the idea of God or the concept? Because coming into a relationship with God is usually Christian language.

[Barack Lurie]

That's why I. Oh, I see. No, in Judaism, we have a relationship with God, absolutely. Rabbis will often ask you, what's your relationship? How is your relationship with God? Tell me about that depth of the relationship. And it's no different in Christianity. Very solid. So I came to that realization. So I started off first understanding that there must be a Creator. And I recommend this if you want to convince your non believing friends, take it methodically. Start off with, is there a Creator? Forget about the God of the Old Testament, God of the New Testament, the Levitical laws. Yeah, Levitical laws. Forget about all that. Leave it aside. Is there a Creator with a capital C? And you'll ultimately have to come to the conclusion that of course there is. It's obvious. The math demands it, the probabilities demand it. It's frankly, it's silly not to believe that the Creator. Okay, so there's three different things that I love to talk about. The that chances of the universe coming into fruition by itself randomly, that is, and that is something on the order of 1 out of 10 to the 64th or 1 28th. It's so obscene that I can't imagine the amount of zeros that are involved. Likewise then that the Earth would be formed, the universe would form in the way it has formed, meaning with the gaseous and solidifying of the planets and the orbits around them. That it doesn't have to be. I mean, it could have been that this universe would be entirely gas and nothing more. But instead we have the laws of physics and the laws of chemistry and so on. So these are things that again, the probabilities of that would be absurd. And now you have to multiply those two fractions in order to make it together. So the chances of the universe beginning in the first place and creating the universe as it did, then you have to go. There are many other steps in between. But the next one I'd like to talk about is the chances of life forming by itself randomly. And that Indeed also is 1 out of 10 to the 125th. I think it was some obscene number. And again, you have to multiply that new fraction to the previous fraction.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

The probability would be if you stacked nickels all across the United States from here to the moon times a thousand, and one of them was a red scent and you were blindfolded. Could you find that one red center? That's the likelihood of just life, Right. Just not the fine tuning of the universe itself.

[Barack Lurie]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

So you say fine tuning of universe, fine tuning of Earth, fine tuning of life. So there's three gradations of improbability, right? Is that, am I in that exact. And then you get to a place where you need a quantum Computer for the number.

[Barack Lurie]

Right, exactly right. It is a big, big number. And not only that, but you have to then go into the. The question of evolution. Right. That. That somehow we could explain the intelligence in life and the kind of intelligent life we have today. That it evolved to this point, that's another absurd fraction. So at some point you have to say, this is silly.

[Charlie Kirk]

We're honored to be partnering with the Alan Jackson Ministries, and today I want to point you to their podcast. It's called Culture and Christianity. The Alan Jackson Podcast. What makes it unique is Pastor Allen's biblical perspective. He takes the truth from the Bible and applies it to issues that we're facing today. Gender confusion, abortion, immigration, Doge Trump and the White House issues in the church. He doesn't just discuss the problems. In every episode, he gives practical things we can do to make a difference. His guests have incredible expertise and powerful testimonies. Each episode will make you recognize the power of your faith and how God can use your life to impact our world.

[Unknown Speaker]

Today.

[Charlie Kirk]

The Culture and Christianity podcast is informative and encouraging. You could find it on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Alan Jackson Ministries is working hard to get biblical truth back into our culture. You can find out more about Pastor Alan and the [e-mail] that is AlanJackson.com again, that is AlanJackson.com.

[Barack Lurie]

You know the old watch on the beach analogy, which is a very apt analogy. It's very fair. You have to assume that there's a creator, somebody who left that watch on the beach, somebody who created that watch and so on. And you're not just seeing something that was created there by the waves and the sand.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you. And this is not worth our time to do more than 20 seconds. Do you believe in evolution or do you believe in creation of man?

[Barack Lurie]

I believe in creation of man.

[Unknown Speaker]

I do, too. And that's. We'll have you on for a different time, because I think that. Look, I'm not even saying if you believe in evolution, you're necessarily a bad person. I just personally have the belief of creation.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, People try to shoehorn evolution in many ways. They want to have it both ways. They want to say, well, I believe in evolution, but it's directed by God. I have a tough time with that.

[Unknown Speaker]

And they could be right. Again, I don't. Anyway, I'm just curious, kind of where you're coming from. And so the math is insurmountable and improbable.

[Barack Lurie]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

What would you have to say then when a non believer. I'm going to put a pin in that word atheist, because I want to get back to that in a second. Says that there's multiverses.

[Barack Lurie]

Okay. Well, the multiverse argument is a manufactured argument designed only because they understand the fine tuning difficulties.

[Charlie Kirk]

They say it's the hard.

[Unknown Speaker]

True atheists know that it is the hardest argument.

[Barack Lurie]

That is the hardest argument. And so here they say, well, there are a bunch of other universes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Correct.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which is an, which is a profession of faith. There is no evidence of something.

[Barack Lurie]

Zero evidence. And there might be an infinity number of universes. Don't you know, Charlie? So therefore, there is a greater chance, therefore, that intelligent life and the way the universe was formed in our universe is. That would happen in this universe. But that is sidestepping the issue. That is, that is a false argument. It's a, it's a cowardly argument. It does not reason whatsoever using reason itself. Which is interesting because one of the things that you learn from. I think you mentioned Frank Turek before, he's terrific. A great argument. And he makes the argument, and you know the classical argument that there's a difference between materialism and immaterialism. Materialism is what I used to believe in as an atheist and most atheists have to believe this, that there's only what we know by seeing, touching, hearing, feeling, tasting and so on. That is it. And if you can't do that, well, then it doesn't exist. But they themselves live in a world where they deal with the immaterial all the time. Like how do you smell logic? How do you taste Science?

[Unknown Speaker]

So true.

[Barack Lurie]

Right. How do you feel Music? There's a whole bunch of different.

[Unknown Speaker]

You can only feel its effects.

[Barack Lurie]

Right? Its effects. We know it's there and yet they accept themselves. Philosophy. Right. I mean, how do you. How do you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, the love of wisdom.

[Barack Lurie]

So. And even the concept. When many atheists will say there's no free will, they in fact, they have to say if they're an intelligent atheist, like you mentioned, an intelligent and honest atheist has to say that there is no free will.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why?

[Barack Lurie]

Because free will can only be given to you by a creator. It cannot evolve.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why do you say that?

[Barack Lurie]

It's free forming. It's also like anything else. You cannot, if you don't believe in the idea of, of evolution coming by itself, you can't have free will.

[Unknown Speaker]

So agency cannot happen because it would just be nothing more than a bunch of cause and effects.

[Barack Lurie]

That's right. That's right. It's tough enough to somehow for an atheist to explain how life was triggered by itself, but then to also say that there's free will in that process, through evolution or otherwise, it's impossible.

[Unknown Speaker]

Would you agree free will is fundamental to Judaism?

[Barack Lurie]

Yes, yes, I agree.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think that's right. And I would say Christianity as well. And I know Christians that don't believe in free will, but that's not the base of the sense.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, I don't understand that. If there's no free will, then I always say, if somebody's going to argue that with me, well, if I punch you in the face right now, are you going to get upset? And they'll say, of course I am. Well, why would you? I couldn't help myself. So we inherently recognize free will, and that was the thing that opened the door to God for me in the first place. Once I realized that there was such a thing as free will, I knew that I was.

[Unknown Speaker]

How did you come to that conclusion?

[Barack Lurie]

I sensed it. I know that I. Free will.

[Unknown Speaker]

Was it a faith claim? Because some people say free will is a faith, meaning you can't prove it, but you must believe you have it.

[Barack Lurie]

I think that's fair to say. I think that not only do I my own agent, but I'm also accountable for my actions. If you don't believe in free will, then you don't believe you have agency and therefore that you don't have accountability for your actions. And that's what's so tempting, Charlie, about atheism, is that that's its major gift to the atheist, is that you don't have to be accountable. Right. It's an addiction. I say non accountability is the greatest addiction that there is. All other addictions flow from that. So the temptation to say, simply dismiss anything, any responsibility. So if you are an atheist, then I always ask, why don't you just sex it up, booze it up, gamble as much as you want, lie and cheat?

[Unknown Speaker]

Some steal, some steal.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. Well, those who do are, generally speaking, atheists, is what I found. I've done a lot of research on this because I'm really fascinated by it. And a lot of these are correlations, but the correlations are very strong. The chances of you being an atheist if you are somebody who routinely commits adultery, routinely steals, routinely cheats on a test, you are very highly likely to be an atheist. If you are a serial murderer, if you engage in mass killings, if you are a member of the drug cartels, the sex cartels, or the Mafia, you are certainly an atheist. You do not have God in your life. You may not call yourself an atheist, but you definitely.

[Unknown Speaker]

They might even use Christian symbolism.

[Barack Lurie]

Well, like, like in the God. Well, the Godfather for example, which I. Is one of my favorite movies.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think it's one of your favorites. Yeah, it's beautiful.

[Barack Lurie]

It's a beautiful movie. It's a fantastic story. But it does a little bit of a disservice to Christianity because that's almost. Yeah, I think, I think you're right anyway.

[Unknown Speaker]

To make Christianity look bad. Yeah. Let me ask, do you differentiate between agnostic, atheist and secularism or those three things all synonyms in your review?

[Barack Lurie]

The agnostic I do differentiate. There's the atheist who says that there is no God. Declarative position. Declarative position.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you notice they're not saying that as much anymore?

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, you brought that up the other day and I'm fascinated about that. I want to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Examples?

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, please.

[Unknown Speaker]

Bill Maher on his show said no, no, we just don't know. And I said what about agnosticism? He says that doesn't exist. We're all just one and the same. Atheism means you don't know. And then Bret Weinstein on Tucker Carlson's podcast said we just don't know the answer to a lot of these things. Which is so amazing to me because when I grew up Hitchens and Sam Harris and Dawkins was always like no, we know we don't, we know there is none. Do you think I'm just overly emphasizing over noticing language diction choice here or is there something else going on here?

[Barack Lurie]

Look, if Bill Maher and Weinstein are.

[Unknown Speaker]

Saying that those are only two data points though.

[Barack Lurie]

But if they are emblematic of many.

[Unknown Speaker]

Others and they are near the top echelon of non God thinking, godless thinking.

[Barack Lurie]

Look, it's always a catch me if you can sort of approach an atheistic ideology. They always say that. Well on the one hand I don't know about whether or not there's a God. On the other hand there is some possibility of this one way or the other but they never quite. You can't really pin them down. They're like pinning Jello to the wall in terms of their positions. For example, when they start talking about most religions are most wars are caused by religion. Then you confront them with the fact that 93% of wars in recorded history have all been non religious.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is that right?

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, that's right. And about half of the religious ones were Muslim based.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're going to put that in our campus tour. So I have a binder of stuff in my campus tour of stuff I hear a lot that I could just reference to shut these kids up. So you're going to send me the citation?

[Barack Lurie]

Absolutely. It's in the Encyclopedia of Wars, so it's very straightforward.

[Unknown Speaker]

Please send that to me. So please continue.

[Barack Lurie]

So they go all over the place, Never quite know where the atheist is landing, but they want it always, in every way. They want to say that they believe in morality, for example. And then you ask them, what is morality? Why does that matter to you? There is no morality in atheism. There's no accountability in atheism, but they want to insist that there is morality. When I was an atheist, Charlie, again, I was an honest atheist, I did not believe morality. I. I thought, look, whatever you can get away with, so much the better for you. I will play by the rules because I don't want to go to jail. And that's about it. And murdering somebody is no more significant than stealing some gum from a 711 store. And that was terrifying to me when I realized that it was liberating when I discovered that God does expect us to have morality.

[Unknown Speaker]

And he watches everything you do, everything.

[Barack Lurie]

And the atheist knows it, too. That's the problem I have with the atheist. He knows all these things. He lives. He tries to live, or claims to live in a moral world where he doesn't want to cheat, lie, steal, and so on. Doesn't want to commit adultery on his wife, but at the same time, his worldview allows him to do all those things without consequence.

[Unknown Speaker]

They will say. So the more articulate evolutionary biologists like Weinstein, who. I actually think he actually is more respectful towards this topic than most. I have to give him a lot of credit. He had a good conversation with Tucker. He would say we derive our morality based on if everybody else did it.

[Barack Lurie]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Would it be beneficial to the group?

[Barack Lurie]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

So, for example, if everyone committed adultery, it'd be bad for the tribe. If everyone killed, it would be bad for the tribe. If everyone stole, it'd be bad for the tribe. And out of that, we get a belief in the golden rule. How would you.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, I get this a lot.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, sure.

[Barack Lurie]

I get this a lot.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which is it's bad for you, right? It's evolutionarily bad.

[Barack Lurie]

Right? Yeah. It's necessarily important to be able to enjoy festivals and music and such, because that's evolution. It's also good that we don't kill each other. I call this the great Mexican standoff argument. Where I don't kill you because I don't want you to kill me. I don't steal from you. I don't want you because I don't want people to steal from me. It's a cute argument but it doesn't understand, doesn't have a basis of morality.

[Charlie Kirk]

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[Barack Lurie]

Why refi.com if morality is relative then if I decide something is good for me then I will do something awful to you and still feel good about it. I'll give you an example and I say this in my book Atheism Kills where if I'm up for promotion, a job and let's say I'm an older guy, I'm 45 years old and there's this young guy who's 28 years old and he's up for promotion and so am I. But I've got four kids and I've got a gambling debt and I got to get this job. If I don't get this job, I'm out in the streets. What's the big deal if I just put some porn on his computer at work, right? It's not criminal per se, but I need that job and he doesn't. I gotta take care of my family. That's logical. Everything I said was logical and he we'll call him Bobby. Mr. 28 year old well, he'll get another job one day. No big deal. He's got plenty of opportunity. That's logic and that is the mindset of Raskolnikov, for example, in Crime of Punishment, where he decides to kill his landlady because he decides that she's a burden to society. He'll be doing the society a favor. See, when you allow that sort of thinking, horrific things happen and you murder.

[Unknown Speaker]

All the down syndrome babies.

[Barack Lurie]

That's right.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's what they do in Iceland.

[Barack Lurie]

By law. Absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

You must abort a Down syndrome.

[Barack Lurie]

I did not know that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, yeah, it's by law.

[Barack Lurie]

You have to.

[Unknown Speaker]

They basically eradicated down syndrome in Iceland and they brag about it.

[Barack Lurie]

Wow.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because why would you want a Down syndrome? Maybe. Right. They're nothing more than a leech on society. They can't harvest or think or create.

[Barack Lurie]

It's frightening to see the way that atheists will logic themselves into positions. And that's why we need a universal morality, that it's a language that we should all be able to speak, but they will steal it from us. They will claim it for themselves.

[Unknown Speaker]

I could talk to you for hours about this and I want to. Let me. Can you crisply describe atheism if you had to give when you encounter it? Because I asked this for a reason. Because now we're going to get into some of the heavier stuff of the 20th century.

[Barack Lurie]

Sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

What is atheism? And therefore how could you ascribe that to Hitler and Stalin and all of that?

[Barack Lurie]

So let's do to me, atheism. And the way I perceived it, the way I ran my life with it, is that there. There are no gods or God. And specifically the Judeo Christian God does not exist. And we are best to not live by the teachings of Judeo Christianity because it has held us back. That is the way I define atheism.

[Unknown Speaker]

So atheism is somewhat of a new phenomenon, though, in the ancient world. Were there atheists?

[Barack Lurie]

Very few. I mean, if there were, they didn't write about it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Give me the history of atheism and then we'll get into the last 150 years.

[Barack Lurie]

Atheism principally did not exist until the 1880s or so as a practical reality.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because of a lot of scientific innovations and revolutions.

[Barack Lurie]

Innovations and a lot of philosophies from the German universities.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's always the Germans, right, Blake? It's always the Germans.

[Barack Lurie]

When it was in the Simpsons, I said, anybody who speaks German can't be that bad. So anyway, the point is that they created this they made it more noble and the idea somehow that it was majestic. And so that kind of gained favor across the Atlantic in America, and they started adopting this as well. And they thought, well, look, we already have Great Society, and we need to advance. We need to move to the next step. The way they viewed religion is in much the way we might view a caterpillar that turns into a butterfly. You don't need the cocoon anymore. Right. Fly away, my dear butterfly. And that's the way they thought of themselves. They are getting rid of the shackles of God and Christianity and Judaism, thank you very much, but we don't need you anymore. Yep. Only to discover that it's more like being in an airplane at 30,000ft and deciding you don't need a pilot, an engine, or, for that matter, wings anymore. That's what it's like. So we need to understand that without God, horrific things happen. It's the very building block of civilization.

[Unknown Speaker]

But wasn't Hitler Christian?

[Barack Lurie]

He was not Christian. This really.

[Unknown Speaker]

He had an iron cross or something?

[Barack Lurie]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Oh, and the belt buckles. Don't never forget the belt buckles. Okay, so this is fascinating.

[Unknown Speaker]

I get this all the time.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So in Mein Kampf, he made a reference to Jesus, however, that was it. Okay. You would think that if he was a Christian and if Nazism and fascism operated on the fuel of Christianity, you would think that maybe once in a while they would raise a cross in their parades. They didn't. They raised something I consider a crooked cross, a twisted cross into a swastika.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which was actually an Indian symbol.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, exactly.

[Unknown Speaker]

It was like an Indian.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. It's weird.

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know or something.

[Barack Lurie]

Quite the connection between.

[Unknown Speaker]

You go to India, they have swastikas all over the place.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. It's like inverted, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Correct.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, yeah. So he didn't do that. Secondly, he wrote extensively about his contempt for Christianity. Contempt. So he said that not only was Christianity a feeble religion, he actually used those words. He had contempt for Judaism, of course, to try to slaughter everyone. He was more than happy to get rid of Christianity as well. That was his next goal.

[Unknown Speaker]

You really believe so?

[Barack Lurie]

Oh, yeah, very much so. He was already getting rid of a lot of Christians in the. In the camps. It wasn't just Jews.

[Unknown Speaker]

Jehovah's Witnesses were targeted. Yes, it was Gypsies, homosexuals, Jews.

[Barack Lurie]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And Jehovah's Witnesses, of all places. People forget that.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, they do. Well, Jehovah's Witnesses were fantastic in the saving and Rescuing of Jews.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I know, but Jehovah's Witnesses were like, in the camp, like, they were.

[Barack Lurie]

Yes, very much so.

[Unknown Speaker]

A lot of Jehovah's Witnesses died. A lot.

[Barack Lurie]

They were very vocal against the Nazi regime, to their credit, could not hold themselves back.

[Unknown Speaker]

Many other Christians suffered greatly because of it.

[Barack Lurie]

With deference to Christians and I understand. Look at me. It was a tough time. I don't expect people to go, you know.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, no. It was a great failing of the American church. No, I'm very clear.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And Bonhoeffer is one of the great legends of the 20th century.

[Barack Lurie]

So one other thing about Hitler is that people don't know this. He loved Islam. He said that it was a great.

[Unknown Speaker]

Shame that Germany integrated some of them into the military.

[Barack Lurie]

Yes, yes, he did.

[Unknown Speaker]

The Free Arab army or something.

[Barack Lurie]

That's right. He said what a shame it was that Germany had adopted Christianity, which was a feeble religion according to him, and that it would have been better for Germany to have adopted a much more strong. Another strong word that he used. I forget what it was. Something like robust religion, such as Muhammadism. That's what he called it. Mohammedism.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's what I call it.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

As a pejorative.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. Well, he meant it as a compliment, but of course, we all know that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Did Hitler really call it Muhammadism?

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's so funny.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. It's a weird. His look, Hitler was. People want to say he was tired.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of talking about him all the time, but, I mean, there is a weird, disturbing fringe of the Internet. People that are trying to, like, white knight Hitler.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And some of these people pretend to be Christian. And he hated Christianity.

[Barack Lurie]

He absolutely hated Christianity.

[Unknown Speaker]

But then again, at the same time, like, oh, no, he was actually Christian. He worked great with the church. There's. It's the opposite, the Islamic one.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's very interesting.

[Unknown Speaker]

Got along with Islam because I also find some people are disturbingly friendly with Islam. That's actually a really, really good segue. So let me ask you a critical potential. I agree with everything you're saying. Someone would say your website says world without God is a world of chaos. But then who's God?

[Barack Lurie]

Right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Is it Allah? Is it, you know, is it Jehovah? Is it Adonai? Is it, you know, Jesus? Is it Buddha?

[Barack Lurie]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you believe in monotheism? Is that.

[Barack Lurie]

Is that the essence of monotheism? When I speak about God, I don't want to keep on in my books and otherwise. I define it quite well in atheism kills and atheism destroys that. When I say belief in God, I'm talking about the Judeo Christian God. I think Judaism, Christianity are one of the same in this department. We share the Old Testament, what we.

[Unknown Speaker]

Call the Torah, and the Tanakh.

[Barack Lurie]

And the Tanakh. Thank you. Great. You know your stuff really well, but it's great. And I feel like my Christian friends are my brothers. I love them. And we talk together about how God is real and finding him. And it gives me no greater joy, Charlie, than to find yet another proof of God. So beyond just my own internal observations, when somebody else reasons with me with that, like, some of your comments have been very helpful, Charlie. Frank Turek, as you mentioned before, phenomenal person, Gerald Schroeder. He wrote the Science of God, which is a fantastic book as well. I just eat this up. But I write about the dangers of atheism because it's. Look, I'll talk about God all day long, how wonderful God is and how God is real. But my main focus is why atheism is so destructive. You can't just believe in God.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's a great school of work that you've positioned yourself.

[Barack Lurie]

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I don't know anybody else really focusing on it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, let's talk about our friend Dennis. Right. And we should pray for Dennis. Dennis isn't. Everyone knows he's in a tough spot, but Dennis has dedicated his work to the necessity of God as well.

[Barack Lurie]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

You're a friend of Dennis. You've gone on his program many times. Do you agree with Dennis that it's more impactful or important to begin with, arguing about the necessity of God before we get to the existence of God?

[Barack Lurie]

I think I always want to be super honest.

[Unknown Speaker]

That is his contention.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah, I would. I mean, it may be a difference without significance. I think that one needs to realize that there is a God to explain the beginning of creation to yourself and then wonder what that God wants from us. And then you realize that, yes, God is necessary. Now, Voltaire said, and he was no real believer, by the way, but he said if there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him. And there's a little bit of cynicism associated with that. I think he didn't truly believe in God. Dostoyevsky hated him, but. So the idea that we better do this in order to have a civilization made it no different than what I said about myself as an atheist when I was an atheist. I said, I'm an atheist, but thank God nobody else is.

[Unknown Speaker]

I only attach to Dennis's argument Because when I communicate to the college audience, they're living in a place of moral subjectivity.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And to break them out of that, to at least have them acknowledge that the world that they pretend to care about, always talking about justice, would be worse off without a belief in the divine.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

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[Barack Lurie]

What I say to people in that department is I say all those things that you care about, that you claim to care about. Sympathy, compassion, justice, truth, free speech, for that matter. All the other things I listed, they cannot exist without God. You are enjoying the benefits of God, but without pursuing the obligations of God. And that dog don't hunt. For me, it's a little bit like being in a rowboat and there's 10 men rowing and there's this one guy who decides he just wants to relax. Well, he gets to go on the rowboat and continue on. The nine other guys will probably be fine. But at some point, if everyone stops rolling, where does the rowboat go? And I really want to push people on that. Understand your obligation to civilization, to the past and to the present. We only have one time on this earth and you've got to make it count. Most people, when they say that they don't believe in God, I always correct them. I say it's not that you don't believe in God, it's that you don't want to believe in God. Very different. But when they really get down to the core of it, that's the issue.

[Unknown Speaker]

I agree. And one of my most effective questions, and I want to spend more time with you. We're running out of time here, is I ask people, if God was real, would you change your behavior?

[Barack Lurie]

That's a Great question.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I came up with that myself.

[Barack Lurie]

I hate that question so much. And I'll tell you why. Because I didn't think of it.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's good, though, right?

[Barack Lurie]

It's very good. It's. It's really, really good, Charlie.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's kind of like Dennis, where I was. It just kind of. I was thinking and thinking and thinking about this.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And as a question, if God was real, would you change anything you're doing?

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah. It's fantastic. I do have something similar, so I'll pat myself on the back a little bit. But there is a difference between believing in God, even believing in the God fiercely, and knowing that there's a God. Because if you believe in God, you know, you go to church every week. You're good, You're a good citizen. There's always the out. Maybe he's there, maybe he's not there. But if you know he's there and he is indeed always watching, as you said, I think you're changing your behavior in more ways than one. So it's great to be a believer. It's necessary to be a believer. But wouldn't you want to know for yourself with great confidence that there really is a God? I think there's such joy to that, and it makes you a better person. I love living by God's rules. I know that the Ten Commandments were given by God. I know.

[Unknown Speaker]

I agree completely.

[Barack Lurie]

It's a joy.

[Unknown Speaker]

No one can convince me otherwise.

[Barack Lurie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

The Decalogue is one of the greatest, if not the greatest. Well, I think Christ's teachings are greater as a Christian. But the Decalogue points straight to Christ. Moral accomplishments in the history of humanity.

[Barack Lurie]

That's right. And don't you want to be part of this club? I mean, if you know that God smiles when you live by his commandments, then wouldn't you want that for your own sake and for God's sake? No. So somebody once said to me, well, you believe in God, you're just. What is it? Somebody on a leash. You're just. It's not you to believe in God. You're just a jerk who lives on a leash by God. Right. And that they are better than you for that. Well, that doesn't float for me. Because what I have found that when I live by God's commandments, I get insights into God. That is the greatest gift that God can give you. We say this in Judaism. I'm sure it's very similar in Christianity, that whenever you do a mitzvah, it's one of the good deeds you can do, they're actually commandments.

[Unknown Speaker]

All 613, right?

[Barack Lurie]

613. Whenever you do that. And the classic example is helping a little old lady across the street. Fine, But I'm talking about things that you don't even necessarily think about, like paying your gardener right away. Don't wait to pay him a month later, Pay him right away. Day laborers pay right away. But when you do that and when you express kindness to somebody, God gives you insight into him just a little bit. You get to peek through the door just for a moment, and it's glorious. That in and of itself is the reward. And that's the way we live.

[Unknown Speaker]

Last question. Are you. Are you. You've been doing this for years.

[Barack Lurie]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

You have a great body of work and I'm going to read your stuff and thank you for all you're doing because it's incredibly important to bring people back to the Lord. Are you optimistic that versus 20 years ago that the ethical monotheism of Judeo Christian worldview is increasing in popularity and influence?

[Barack Lurie]

Yes, and I'll tell you, and I agree with you, yeah. And I'll tell you why. Because it's evidence in plain sight. The atheists are doing our job for us in a sense of let's not have any kids. Let's cover this global warming or whatever it is, overpopulation, all that nonsense. So they're not having kids. The Christians are having kids, the highly observant Jews are having kids, Mormons are having kids, Catholics are having kids. And then they're surprised that Gen Z is now more religious than any other generation.

[Unknown Speaker]

So true.

[Barack Lurie]

And if you want the best microcosm to prove this point is look at Israel. Israel from 1948 to 1978. Super liberal, super progressive, socialist in nature. And then Likud, which is their version of Republicanism, won the seat. And for the next 20 years, the next 20 years, it went back and forth, back and forth. Likud Labor. Likud Labor. Labor is the Democrat version in Israeli politics. And then starting in 2006, it's been nothing but Likud.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it's nothing. It's getting more conservative.

[Barack Lurie]

It's more conservative now. And that's precisely because massive amounts of religious Jews are there. They're having kids, they're voting and right of return.

[Unknown Speaker]

People are coming like crazy.

[Barack Lurie]

It's fantastic.

[Unknown Speaker]

Atheism destroys.

[Charlie Kirk]

Atheism kills.

[Unknown Speaker]

Atheism steals. The combo pact.

[Barack Lurie]

Yes, exactly right. It is a very comprehensive sense. When you read these books, you will know that there's a God. You will come to God and you will at the very least understand how shallow atheistic thinking is. And I really think it's going to be a treasure for you, for anyone who reads it, to just enjoy God in the way that God wants us to enjoy. He doesn't want us just to to believe in him. I think he wants us to activate Him. God is a verb more than it is just a belief.

[Unknown Speaker]

Very good. Thank you, my friend.

[Barack Lurie]

Thank you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Charlie Barak Lurie. Check out his books.

[Charlie Kirk]

Atheism Kills. Atheism Destroys.

[Unknown Speaker]

Atheism Steals. Thanks so much. God bless.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks so much for listening everybody. Email us. As always, freedomarliekirk.com thanks so much for listening and God bless.

[Dennis Prager]

For more on many of these stories and news you can Trust, go to charliekirk.com.