Eric Metaxas (1:53)

And guess what? It worked. No one died. So thus far, fingers crossed, no one died.

Charlie Kirk (2:01)

And you were 900 yards away.

Eric Metaxas (2:03)

We were 900 yards away. I had to use a very powerful scope to see him, but it was an amazing experience. And I advocated that Christians not only should vote for Trump, but must vote for Trump. And he advocated the opposite. And a good time was had by all.

Charlie Kirk (2:18)

Yeah, so what? So the essence of his position, we get these emails a lot on our podcast, is that Christians should not justify Donald Trump's actions or worse. I'm just trying to build out where's here's the issue.

Eric Metaxas (2:31)

If you really demonize somebody in the way that they've demonized Trump such that he is patently a monster, then you say, I can't vote for a monster. I can't vote for Hitler. I can't vote for a man who is publicly cruel and who is a liar. And I would agree with that. Right, except it's preposterous. Whatever they cite is either at best subjective or utterly false. And so when you call somebody a liar, he is a liar. What is a liar? And when Barack Obama says, you can keep your plan, if you like your plan, you can keep it. So is he now like he's a liar forever, like he's just branded as a liar? The idea that Trump speaks hyperbolically, comedically, nobody who doesn't understand that will be able to deal with it. And the mainstream media has become ultra serious, so serious that they can't appreciate nuance or inflection, whatever that it's happened to me. You know, you crack a joke, like half the time I'm speaking semi jokingly and you realize people are going to interpret it in a flat footed way and they're going to say, you said that, you said you declared Jesus was white. It's like, no, that was kind of like a setup for like a punchline of. But they don't care. So articles get written that of course is Trump's life. So whatever he does gets so twisted. So, so the argument is not an argument. I mean, if you are convinced that he is the Devil 2.0. Well, I guess I wouldn't vote for him either. But I think that the facts or the points that folks like French make just strike me as pure subjectivism, that they just don't like the cut of his jib and they, they inflate it into him being some kind of a Pol Pot figure now.

Charlie Kirk (4:26)

Yeah, but was it policy focused at all or was it all personality?

Eric Metaxas (4:29)

Well, that's the issue. In other words, it didn't strike me as being policy focused. It struck me as, for example, one big thing that he did, which I was not prepared for because it strikes me as just so crazy. He, he inflates the boogeyman of, of the alt right and, and on. And I just thought, what, what are you talking about? I mean, we have antifa and BLM mobs burning down America and you're bringing up this thing that, I don't know anybody that, you know, they say, oh yes, there, there are alt right riots and they're all right, you know, talking about. Well, that's what I'm saying.

Charlie Kirk (5:07)

It's like dates, locations, names, people.

Eric Metaxas (5:09)

It's just, it's just absolutely. And then another big talking point is that, you know, Trump's main man, you know, Steve Bannon, said that he wanted, you know, to Breitbart to be a platform for the alt right. And it's kind of like that's the qed. And then I have to kind of point out, well, okay, by the way, Trump fired Steve Bannon, number one. Number two, I don't even know what you're talking about, even if it were true. So it's become. It. It's. I'm not kidding. It's. It's a fiction. It's a narrative. This is kind of where the left is today. But it's, it's a huge fiction. It's a huge narrative filled with emotion. There's no real arguing with it because logic is almost kicked away as a, as an oppressive patriarchal Western concept.

Charlie Kirk (5:56)

That's exactly right.

Eric Metaxas (5:57)

And so it's gotta be about somebody insulted my daughter who is black, and therefore every other Trump supporter must also be racist. And, you know, on and on and on. And you can't argue with that.

Charlie Kirk (6:09)

That's very dangerous. Group identity, almost the generalization.

Eric Metaxas (6:12)

Well, of course it is.

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Charlie Kirk (7:29)

So here's where I'm at on this with some of these conservative never Trumpers. There's not that many of them, actually. The data shows that Trump's the most popular Republican president running for reelection, even more so than George W. Bush ever since Ronald Reagan. So they're just louder and they're given a bigger platform because of how much the media hates President Trump. And so there's nothing new about this idea of, you know, Republicans trying to play righteous, self righteous about it. What I'm, what I'm just trying to square here is for those people of the world, the David Frenches, I think, and I don't want to impose too much of it, it's almost a pseudo intellectualism that they have though, that, that's,

Eric Metaxas (8:06)

that's another way to talk about it. In other words, it strikes me because I grew up in a working class environment. I, you know, by going to Yale and living in Manhattan and traveling in these circles, I feel like I'm, I can speak, I'm bilingual, right. So when Trump speaks with his hyperbole and his almost like a Jackie Mason humor shtick and the bluster and whatever, I get that language, right? I don't, I don't read it like a dull PBS intern would read it, you know, and I think that what happened is what Trump has done is he's flushed out. You also see this in the Christian faith that you flush out those people who want their thing to be respectable. Now, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but they are unwilling ever to ally themselves with someone they find somewhat embarrassing socially. In other words, if you, you know, if you're not a beltway intellectual, if you can't parry with George Will or Ross Douthat or whatever, they don't, they don't, you embarrass them. And so in a sense, they have the same elitist view of the so called deplorables.

Charlie Kirk (9:20)

Yes, that's exactly right.

Eric Metaxas (9:22)

That Hillary Clinton did. And that's, that's where I think this is broken down. That's, you can almost see that these are the people who, they were fashioning for themselves a kind of intellectually respectable conservatism. Now we know it's intellectually respectable, but the point is that everyone who adopts it doesn't need themselves to be intellectually respectable.

Charlie Kirk (9:41)

I think there's a level deeper here though, that Trump has signaled a shift that some of these pseudo intellectuals on the conservative side have been sort of wrong about a Couple things. And not just sort of wrong, but very wrong. And especially on the issues of international trade, middle class exporting. Not just, not just exporting jobs, but livelihoods overseas. 15 million jobs.

Eric Metaxas (10:02)

No, no, this is, this is, what I'm saying is like he has, but

Charlie Kirk (10:04)

he's so dogmatic about it.

Eric Metaxas (10:06)

But he has thoroughly embarrassed them. That's right, he's humiliated them. He has pointed out that the so called Republicans have been as bad or worse or no better than the Democrats on some of the most fundamental issues. Which, you know, I've heard people over the years say, oh, both parties are the same, both parties are the same. And I've said, well, you've got to be kidding. That's not true. That's not true. Then you realize like on a lot of stuff that is precisely correct. If you're willing to play patty cake with the satanic monster called China, Communist China, and you're willing to be seduced by the free market as though it is a God, that if we introduce the free market that suddenly they're going to sprout tricorn hats and muskets and they're going to recite the Declaration of Independence. The free market can't do that. You need virtue. That's exactly right. Which is why we're at the Falkirk center here. If you take virtue out of the free market, if you take virtue out of the democratic process, the whole thing breaks down. But none of them knew that. The Democrats didn't know it and the Republicans didn't know it. And that's why today we are where we are.

Charlie Kirk (11:08)

And if I were to use a term, tracing back or contact trace back, that's not probably the right term. It's FaceTime, but whatever. Little probably too soon to use that. But going back 40 years ago, you had strict libertarian ideologues pairing up with corporate interests and they believe that change came through laissez faire economic trade policy, when in reality that's fine. But if you're exporting into a civilization that does not believe in the western ideal, made in the image of God, then that change is actually just going

Podcast Host/Announcer (11:35)

to make them richer and give them

Charlie Kirk (11:36)

more of what they already have.

Eric Metaxas (11:37)

And it's also going to give them more power to oppress the weak.

Charlie Kirk (11:42)

What they already have is tyranny. So they're tyranny more effective, okay?

Eric Metaxas (11:45)

And that's precisely commercialize their tyranny. And it's. And again, if you make an idol of the free market, you say we're going to take morality out of it. Okay, so let's say you can manufacture ovens for the Nazis to burn Jews. You're going to make money. Are you going to be bothered about the morality of it? Well, most people would know that that's the dirtiest money. That's the devil's money. I won't take that money. But what happens when you're dealing with China and they have Uyghur Muslims in concentration camps being treated? I mean, look, the ones that are not murdered for their organs. I mean, this is so horrific, it's almost impossible to believe. Murdered for their organs so that the Chinese government can make $500,000 off of a human being that they've murdered. Okay, that's happening. So do you. Do you trade with someone like that? Do you trade with someone that is using those people? They don't murder as slave laborers? Do you buy Nike shoes? Do you go to NBA games? If you don't have those conversations in a culture like this, we deserve to unravel ourselves. We don't deserve the freedom and the prosperity.

Charlie Kirk (12:49)

We're only having this conversation because of Trump. No one else was willing to have that conversation.

Eric Metaxas (12:52)

Precisely.

Charlie Kirk (12:53)

And I came from that old school of conservatism in my early years of the David Frenchites, which is, you must worship free trade economics as if it is dogma of religion. You can never question it. The U.S. chamber of Commerce must always be correct. They've never been wrong.

Podcast Host/Announcer (13:09)

How dare you.

Charlie Kirk (13:10)

You know, Trump's the worst thing ever because he's calling out China for what they're doing. And then you actually take a drive from Manhattan to Milwaukee and get off the expressway and then just go into these old towns in Ohio and Indiana where there were these destroyed factories. And they said, that's a good thing because we have Ricardo's law of comparative advantage. Don't you understand?

Podcast Host/Announcer (13:30)

Like, okay, so we get piles full

Charlie Kirk (13:31)

of plastic and the church there. Then go visit the church and go through the registry in 1980 and go through the registry now. That's now for people of faith. David French is one. He should look at that. The registry in those churches, down 90%. So it's not just the factory closed, it's the entire. It's the entire middle part of the country, the faith. And then. So they say, well, that's far too materialist of you. They say, oh, no, the materialism doesn't play that big of a role. You're trying to tell me when you just tell 600 people earning $30 an hour your jobs are now In Wuhan. Go find something else to do. And you do that for 15 million people, that's going to land perfectly.

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Eric Metaxas (15:10)

Well, you know, it's a funny thing because if you believe in the free market, you know, you have to deal with the morality at some point you bump into, you know, is, is cruelty to animals, is cruelty to human beings. What are the things that bump up against this idea of a pure free market? And if China isn't all of those things rolled into one times a billion, then what is there? So how is it conceivable that only this president had the courage and the wisdom to see this and to, and to begin to deal with it? I mean it's, it's. If he did nothing else, that would be magnificent.

Charlie Kirk (15:49)

Well, and he's done so much more than that. And also, I mean he's exposed the fraud of the Republican party, of being purchased by the tech companies, of being an incestuous swamp within Washington D.C. literally. And you wrote a whole book called Donald Drains the Swamp.

Eric Metaxas (16:03)

Yeah, a whole book Satire. Yeah.

Charlie Kirk (16:06)

Which I think is, I don't think we do enough satire.

Eric Metaxas (16:07)

No, it's. Look, it's a. I've written three humor books, Donald the Caveman books. And they're meant to in a way explain all this stuff on the simplest level so that people realize I'm not crazy. This is what is happening. But even a kid can understand it. And there's nothing vile in the books. So you can use them as kids books because they look like kids books. But I think that most Americans kind of get this. They get this stuff and I think, you know, people are willing to give stuff a pass for a number of decades and then at some point the evidence is in. I mean, when you look at the Democratic run cities and the trillions that were spent, you know, the war against poverty, at some point you look at it and you go, this has failed. We now know this has failed. And black Americans have been, you know, treated as suckers. And now there needs to be a reckoning. They need to reject it.

Charlie Kirk (16:52)

So to shift gears for a second, you had a great interview on Tucker Carlson about the church there. There are some pastors that come out and they say that the church has been the number one arbiter of white supremacy in our country. And you refuted this really well. What was your argument? I mean, look, you were terrific.

Eric Metaxas (17:08)

There are several arguments. I'll simply say this. When I saw that church using the language.

Charlie Kirk (17:15)

The New York based church.

Eric Metaxas (17:17)

Yeah. Yes. Well, look, they're a Jesuit, lost church already. But I'm saying that when you see the Church of Jesus Christ using certain kinds of woke language, okay, when they talk about white supremacy, white nationalism and so on and so forth, white privilege, it is no different. It is exactly what the Nazis did to the churches in the 30s. They did not say, we want to abolish the church, come and worship Satan, deny God. No, no, no, no. They infiltrated because they said, we're going to use these gullible people and we're going to ride along with them for a while or we're going to let them ride along with us for a while to stay out of trouble. It's kind of like paying, you know, protection money. It's like you, you play ball with us, you put your Black Lives Matter and your flag and your rainbow flag outside of that and we'll, we'll leave you alone. But the point is, the people that are asking them to do this are themselves Marxists, cultural Marxists who do not believe in God, who do not believe in the dignity of the individual, do not believe in that. We're made in the image of God. So if you go along with this, which the German churches did and which many American churches are doing, you're riding on the back of a tiger. This tiger intends to eat you, not to make friends with you. And so this is Something that is so ugly because if you're an atheist, you don't even have a reason to believe racism is wrong. Think of the irony of this. In other words, it's only the churches that said, we're made in the image of God. We have to abolish the slave trade. We have to abolish slavery. We have to work to abolish, you know, the Jim Crow laws and so on and so forth. That all came out of the churches. Martin Luther King knew that. And since the 60s, we've gotten a different narrative. It's the 16, 19 narrative. And the, the ignorance of the churches to buy into this thinking they're. They're somehow playing along with somebody who will help them. They are signing their own death warrants. And it's the death warrant of Western civilization. Let's face.

Charlie Kirk (19:07)

Well, the Bible built Western civilization, thank you very much.

Eric Metaxas (19:10)

That. That's exactly correct. I think I said that on that show. It's kind of funny because that's the point is like you reject that and you reject God. Then you tell me, on what principles are you going to build your civilization except power and blood?

Charlie Kirk (19:22)

But the horrific irony is the churches in the Bible built Western civilization. Now churches are actively involved in destroying Western civilization.

Eric Metaxas (19:30)

Yeah, well, some churches, and I would argue those churches aren't real churches. You know, they're sort of. They're the phony churches. They're the same churches that operated when Wilberforce was fighting the slave trade. And they, The Church of England, for example, owned plantations in the West Indies. In other words, you know, there's this thing called hypocrisy. And it's existed in the church from the beginning. You know, Judas was pretending to be on board. There has. That has always existed, but it's always been the role of real people of faith and lovers of truth to speak up as clearly and loudly and courageously as. As they can. Bonhoeffer did. They didn't listen to him. The question is today, will people in the churches wake up to what's being done to them by the atheist left? And, you know, that remains to be seen.

Charlie Kirk (20:17)

And it's being, it's being infiltrated at the very highest level. And you're seeing there's the black square taken, the racial penance movement.

Eric Metaxas (20:24)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's absurd on many levels, but I think just the whiff of it, just the fact that it smells like what happened to the churches in the 30s in Germany Ought to be enough for people to say, I don't trust this.

Charlie Kirk (20:38)

So a lot of. There's churches. A lot of churches are still closed, as we just mentioned. A lot of churches are funding the BLM Incorporated nonsense. And this all kind of comes to this idea of whether we want Western civilization to continue to exist. You wrote a phenomenal book about this. Can you just take a step back? What is the west and why is it so important we preserve it?

Eric Metaxas (20:57)

Well, let's think of it this way. I mean, being Greek, I'm very happy to say that the west in a way is the, the confluence of Athens and Jerusalem. Right. You have a lot of good things that came out of.

Charlie Kirk (21:07)

And Scotland.

Eric Metaxas (21:08)

Yeah, I forgot Scotland that you, you

Charlie Kirk (21:12)

have a kind of being, being a Kirk.

Eric Metaxas (21:14)

I know, I know, I know.

Charlie Kirk (21:16)

Can't forget our. We don't want.

Eric Metaxas (21:17)

We can't go too far afield. I'm just going to stick to Athens in Jerusalem. But, but the point is that something happened that results in what we call Western Christ, Christendom, which was, you know, one of the greatest cultures in the history of the world. And that out of that came this thing we call the United States of America and others. The idea that we can govern ourselves and be genuinely free. It was discovered fairly recently. It was put into practice, you know, fairly recently. And it has created an opportunity so that an infinite number of people could be raised out of poverty. There's no zero sum game. We're able to create wealth. We're able to spread freedom. It's a magical moment in history. And we've seen the full flower of that in the United States of America. And in the last 60 years, people have begun to try to undo the whole thing and to discredit the whole thing. And that's what we're fighting now.

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Charlie Kirk (23:17)

and the tragedy is that so many people are being taught that everything around us is not just bad, it's the worst thing ever, that the west was a mistake. It's a colonialist exploitation experiment must be destroyed at all costs. And this is where you get Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida.

Eric Metaxas (23:33)

Yeah, all of these people should move to North Korea because they, they will see how some of them would actually

Charlie Kirk (23:38)

enjoy that if they were in charge.

Eric Metaxas (23:40)

Well, no, but I mean that's the whole point is that if you want to, if you want to play that game, in other words, you have a choice between truth and liberty or this ugly, cynical, ultimately satanic game where some people will have the power and they will make all the decisions and everyone else will be ruled and governed from above. That's the choice. Now if there were another choice, which they sometimes pretend there is some kind of supposed off socialism or something, I would say, well, maybe, but the fact of the matter is there is not. And these people animated usually by a kind of just pure emotional anger against something, maybe it's daddy, maybe it's, I don't know what it is, but they have allowed themselves to be angry and to point the finger at others and in effect to scapegoat others rather than say, I'm the problem, I'm a sinner, I need God, the problem is somebody else. Obviously the Nazis did that with the Jews. It's happened through history.

Charlie Kirk (24:41)

You find someone Chinese, right?

Eric Metaxas (24:43)

So you find someone to blame and you demonize them. And we know how that goes and that's the path that the radical left has launched us on. And if we don't fight it with everything we have, we will lose, you know, the greatest country in history which show which gives the most promise and opportunity to those who are without, to those who are not flourishing. In other words, if you actually care about the poor, if you, if you believe Black Lives Matter, you must speak against the organization called Black Lives Matter. You must vote for the president who is going to create opportunity and jobs. And that's the great irony.

Charlie Kirk (25:25)

What we've been given, and it's a gift we've been given by generations prior to us, is more in jeopardy than ever before. And the real unfortunate part of it is that it's so self inflicted, is that it's so internal and it's going to be one of the first times we've seen in, you know, modern. The modern era where it's not conquest, it's not anything but. It's just an internal.

Eric Metaxas (25:46)

But it was. But it was predicted by Abraham Lincoln,

Charlie Kirk (25:49)

you know, that Nietzsche also predicted.

Eric Metaxas (25:52)

Well, Nietzsche comes after Lincoln.

Podcast Host/Announcer (25:53)

I know.

Eric Metaxas (25:54)

So he stole, just like Biden stole.

Charlie Kirk (25:56)

Nietzsche predicted the communist carnage, is that right?

Eric Metaxas (25:59)

Well, that. That I didn't quite know, but I guess the reason I.

Charlie Kirk (26:02)

Death of God.

Eric Metaxas (26:03)

Oh, yeah, no, no, definitely.

Charlie Kirk (26:05)

And he said sort of what comes after this is not good.

Podcast Host/Announcer (26:07)

Like he wasn't. It wasn't celebrated.

Charlie Kirk (26:08)

It was a eulogy. It wasn't.

Eric Metaxas (26:10)

Right.

Charlie Kirk (26:10)

Anyway.

Eric Metaxas (26:11)

No, the only reason I bring up Lincoln is because Lincoln gave a speech in the. In the Springfield Young Men's Lyceum, I think it was. He was a very young man, you know, not much older than you, and he gave a speech where he talked about the slow artillery of time. He basically makes the case that if we the people don't keep the Republic, in the words of Ben Franklin.

Charlie Kirk (26:34)

Franklin, if you can keep it.

Eric Metaxas (26:35)

If we don't do that, we will destroy ourselves. But there is no way anyone else can destroy us. It has to come from within. So Osgin has wrote a book called the Free People's Suicide that it must be by suicide that we destroy ourselves. So that's simply to reiterate what you said.

Charlie Kirk (26:52)

So any books you're working on currently? Got another?

Eric Metaxas (26:55)

Yes, sir.

Charlie Kirk (26:56)

Are you allowed to talk about it?

Eric Metaxas (26:57)

I have a book. Yeah, I have a book coming out in February which is a literary memoir. It's utterly apolitical and it's not. It's only slightly spiritual. It's the story of my life from birth till the moment around my 25th birthday when I had an utterly miraculous Jesus dream that changed changed my life completely and forever. But I wanted to write a book to reach out to people who wouldn't read. Like a spiritual memoir. Just a. It's just a story of growing up as the son of European immigrants. My dad came from Greece, my mom came from Germany. And there's a lot of humor in it. There's a lot of crazy stories and stuff. Growing up in that. In that world and then going to a place like Yale and not really fitting in. The title of the book is Fish out of Water. A Search for the Meaning of Life.

Charlie Kirk (27:42)

And the fact is it's like Man's Search. It's like Viktor Frankl with less tragic.

Eric Metaxas (27:47)

With more jokes.

Charlie Kirk (27:47)

Yeah, with a nicer start.

Eric Metaxas (27:49)

But. But the Fact is that it's the story of my life. And I hope what it does is it gives people an opportunity to see what it's like just to grow up in America and the American dream. But then to realize if I don't know the meaning of it all, I can't enjoy it. I have to know, what is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of my life? Does life even have meaning? And at Yale and those kinds of elite institutions, they. They sort of teach you that life has no meaning, but they don't have the courage.

Charlie Kirk (28:18)

Well curated nihilism.

Eric Metaxas (28:20)

Exactly. They don't have the courage to explain it or to say it because it's too nasty. So they just sort of, you know, pretend that it's not true or that, you know, on the weekends we've got alcohol and sports and get a really good job, and in a few decades, it'll all be over. So my book is. Is meant to be my story.

Charlie Kirk (28:39)

Your book, Miracles is unbelievable. Seven great men, and then you have seven other great men, right?

Eric Metaxas (28:43)

Seven more men. Seven men, seven women.

Charlie Kirk (28:47)

Do you have seven women yet?

Eric Metaxas (28:48)

Seven women exist, of course. And seven more women is being worked on.

Charlie Kirk (28:51)

And you have Bonhoeffer.

Eric Metaxas (28:53)

Yes.

Charlie Kirk (28:53)

And then if you can keep it.

Eric Metaxas (28:54)

If you can keep it.

Charlie Kirk (28:55)

I always get that. And the last best hope. I mean, Prager's book, I get them confused all the time.

Eric Metaxas (29:00)

Well, and of course, that's. He. He ripped that off from. From Lincoln. I ripped my quote off from Franklin.

Charlie Kirk (29:07)

Eric, you got to go to the stage. God bless you, man.

Eric Metaxas (29:09)

Thank you so much.

Charlie Kirk (29:10)

Thank you.

Podcast Host/Announcer (29:14)

Thanks so much for listening, everybody. If you guys want to Support us@charliekirk.com Support Chip in some money. If you can email us your questions, Freedom, CharlieKirk.com and please get involved with Turning Point USA. TPUSA.com, find out who's teaching your children at Professor Watchlist.org and if you want to find out if the Chinese Communist Party is present on your alma mater Campus, go to chinaoncampus.com thanks so much for listening, everybody. Make sure to listen to our episode on getting our kids to love America Again. Thanks so much. God bless.