B (2:21)

But you also offer social distancing in the courtyard.

A (2:24)

You can do anything here, whatever is your flavor. We have social distancing in the courtyard, social distancing out on the grass. We have a big lawn area.

B (2:33)

If people want that, if they want

A (2:35)

that, they can watch online, they can watch online. They can watch and listen inside of their car. In the parking lot. We stream FM frequency to the parking lot in their vehicles, or they can just do normal, which is the full experience, full blown. And that's we give them everything thing that can possibly be experienced Jumbotron screen outdoors if they want that. Yet we're still in violation of Governor Newsom's edicts, you know, and there's like our attorneys told us, there's no way you can please him. There's just no way. So what do we do? Shut down the church? No, that's impossible. Jesus said, I've set before you an open door, not a closed one. So I don't have the authority to close the doors to the church. Only Jesus has that. So we're open, we'll continue to stay open. And we've made it known that if we are shut down, Charlie, they're going to have to honestly chain the door shut. And then we have a plan B. Our plan B is to actually take it out on the streets or in the parks and do services. We actually have that.

B (3:38)

You have courage and a backbone. Unlike most pastors in our country, a lot of our listeners email us@freedomarliekirk.com Charlie my pastor has remained closed, but interestingly he opened momentarily for a BLM moment of silence to take a knee. And all this. This is real things we get. You know, I'm in an interesting position, Jack, because I take a very firm stance on these, on these issues and I hear from people all across the country and there are people that are searching for leadership right now. How have. You've obviously had the backlash. That's something that. Yeah, you just are used to tell some of the positive stories though, that have come out of this. The positive rewards not just for you, but for the church and the kingdom.

A (4:20)

Yeah, well, we preach a very clear gospel here. You're not gonna. You're not gonna come here for three weeks and wonder what we're talking about. You're gonna know the first 20 minutes walking into this place. So the rewards have been this. People who never visited us before because we're open, they've come in and they have said. Last Sunday, for example, this woman came. It's her third week to church. She is a Jehovah Witness. She was taught that Jesus is not God incarnate all her life. She saw Bible, she saw teaching and preaching from the scriptures in these last three weeks. And she was out in the foyer last Sunday bawling because she said, I see Jesus now for who he is. He is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords and her life's been completely transformed. That's one person, Charlie. We were seeing people driving from Ventura, people driving from Santa Barbara, people driving from San Diego and every service is packed out.

B (5:17)

So when I talk about you and Pastor Rob McCoy, some of the weak Christian pastors and I could be more critical than you can towards these pastors just because I'm not completely in that community. But some of these weak Christian pastors, they say, but Jack hibbs and Rob McCoy, they make an idol out of politics and it's a political first church. First of all, they're just wrong. That is a falsehood. It is a Christ first church. Can you talk about that?

A (5:45)

Yeah, listen, I actually, I'm not saying this to be sarcastic in any way. Actually, I understand where they're coming from. What are they going to do as they look around at their flock? I say look around as their flock emails them saying when are you going to open up? And the pressure from the flock because they're hungry and they want to get back to fellowship. They may have a board breathing down their neck or what, I do not know. But the bottom line is this, those pastors need to open up now because it is the church. Yes, Gavin Newsom is not the head of the church. It's Jesus. And you know, people want to put the church, every government wants to put the church either in a essential or non essential category. Our governor makes it very clear the church is non essential. We refuse to be categorized like that. We believe from the Bible that the war, the church is transcendent. It is a living, breathing organism. It's, it's, it's not of this world. It is not subject to government in that capacity. And what's funny is for years people have said separation of church and state. You guys shouldn't be doing this. You shouldn't be doing this. Well, the interesting thing is that the government now, they don't see that separation. They step in and they say, we're going to lord our confused, let's be honest, our confused agenda even over the church. We don't know if you should wear a mask this week or not. We don't know if you should be 6ft apart or 3ft. We don't know if we should open or not. Listen, people are dying. People are emotionally distraught. Spiritually in the desert, isn't that the

B (7:18)

most important time to have church?

A (7:19)

Absolutely. What in the world are we doing when we shut down? A living, breathing organism that brings stability, comfort and frankly logic to the illogic of what we're living through? Right now. But listen, our governor absolutely sees it different.

B (7:35)

And many other, many other governors agree with that. Two points on that. The first of which some Christian pastors will say, but Romans 13 says we must abound all the time.

A (7:44)

Agree.

B (7:45)

What does that mean?

A (7:46)

Absolutely agree. We did that. In fact, if anybody has a chance, they should read John MacArthur's letter to the California churches. He articulates it perfectly. When President Trump asked us to shut down for 15 days, we did it. Then Trump came back, remember, and said, well, sorry, let's do another 15 days because we got to flatten that curve. We did that. Then Trump wisely. I didn't like it, Charlie, but wisely, Trump honored states rights and gave jurisdiction over to the governors. And our governor just doubled down on his true colors and feelings about the church in California. So we petitioned his office saying, where are we? What phase are we in? No response. No response. Just kicked the can down the road when the church was asking, what about us? So what we did listen. We obeyed the law. But when it became evident to us that we had a governor that was going to keep the. And he's going to still keep the churches that are closed, Charlie, he's going to keep those churches closed until some advantage comes his way. So. So we did obey Romans 13. When it became clear that it's time to obey God rather than man, we respectfully parted ways with that restriction.

B (9:01)

And it's also important to remember that the sovereign in our country is not necessarily Gavin Newsom. It's the people.

A (9:07)

That's right. We. Absolutely.

B (9:09)

And it's a very important philosophical distinction. Second part is this. The Supreme Court just said that church is not essential. Should we listen to that?

A (9:17)

No, absolutely not.

B (9:19)

So how do we reconcile that with Romans 13?

A (9:22)

It's the same argument. It's the same argument where they are making a ruling regarding. You're referring to the Nevada.

B (9:29)

Yeah, with John Roberts, who decided to side with casinos lately on a lot

A (9:35)

of topics, hasn't he?

B (9:36)

But anyway, I could go into that again.

A (9:40)

That's one of those things where it doesn't matter how black the robe is. It has to do with obeying the gospel in the commission. So, for example, Jesus says, I've opened the church, so tell me where. He says to shut it. Now, somebody might say, but don't you love people? If you love people, you'll shut your doors. Well, wait a minute. That is a. That is a value statement. What do you mean, love people? Well, if you love people, you should shut down, because you don't anybody get sick. We don't want anybody to get sick. But we do know something. People do get sick every day. In fact, Charlie, what are they telling us? 128,000 are dead now from COVID 19. Not true. They've not backed out the numbers of those who have died from diabetes from

B (10:17)

it's dying with and dying from.

A (10:19)

Exactly. So the number is skewed. But my point is this. When we talk about what we need to love one another, I can't think of a greater way to love someone out of suicide. Love them out of a broken marriage, Love them out of the dilemma. It's not. Listen, 90 plus percent of people who contract Covid survive.

B (10:39)

Here's what I tell people is one of the most misrepresented parts of Christianity is when people say, trust your neighbor as yourself. You know, love your neighbor. You treat other people the way you want to be treated. Love your neighbor as yourself. Exactly. And so I think that it gets misrepresented at times where people say, what does that actually look like? I think love is trust. Right. If you actually think about it, a true loving relationship is a trustworthy relationship. Right. Trustworthy marriage, a trustworthy business. And so because of that, if you have love, you trust people to hopefully make informed choices. I don't think that if you say we have to keep things endlessly closed, I don't trust my congregation to make good choices. I think part of love is liberty too. That's right. In order to trust, you must make choices, therefore you must have liberty. And so I'm of the opinion that there is going to be a foolish human being that does something silly today. Yeah, that will happen.

A (11:36)

Absolutely.

B (11:36)

It could be someone that drinks too much at a bar and then gets into a car.

A (11:40)

Right.

B (11:40)

It could be someone that does something abusive to a spouse or a family member. That stuff happens in the parameters of our broken world.

A (11:48)

That's right.

B (11:48)

It is inexcusable to then say we are going to then centrally plan human behavior by shutting the doors to the one place where moral order is actually given.

A (11:59)

Right.

B (11:59)

So there might be someone that walks into your church that does something. They might walk into the non socially distanced area and maybe they shouldn't be doing that. That's gonna be a price that they're gonna have to pay, and that's liberty. And so you. And we're gonna love on them, we're gonna treat them well. But in some ways you have to be able to say, part of liberty is responsibility.

A (12:22)

Charlie, we're at a moment right now in Our nation's experiment, where there's a whole generation that thinks that they're doing the more, the more republic thing, the more responsible thing, the more Christian thing, by staying sequestered and staying wrapped and staying out of life. But the truth is, and you said it. You know what, you said it recently. It was either one of your podcasts or Eric Metax's podcast. You had given a great, great logic, a great argument about how the very need that the church can bring to a culture that is protesting. Remember that. And rioting where, oh, go out and ride it. You don't have to be social distancing, you know, just throw your Molotov cocktail in the right direction. But no church.

B (13:13)

Yes.

A (13:13)

And you had a great. Do you remember that? Can you. Yeah, I do comment on it because it was great.

B (13:17)

Well, I think I said this to Eric, who's an American hero. He's phenomenal. I said, there's a direct connection between social unrest and churches being closed.

A (13:25)

I believe it.

B (13:25)

And if people are not going to churches, and we believe that communion is a sacrament, and we do believe that you should be able to take the blood and body of Jesus Christ. But even beyond that, if you remove the celebration of the risen Christ, if you remove Easter and Palm Sunday and all of a sudden, five weeks later, you have complete and total turmoil. Well, maybe there was something actually to celebrating Easter. Yeah, maybe there was something. For the one person who might go to church a year, that might be the only service I go to. They dress up in a full suit and tie. They dress up all their daughters in dresses and all their kids in suits. They go to Easter and they sit through a 90 minute service. Jack, 30 years, how many people on Easter Sunday have given their life to the Lord? I'm sure you have examples, right?

A (14:03)

I can't even count.

B (14:04)

Exactly. Beyond every pastor I talk to agrees to this, whether they remained open or closed, they say, you know what, that's a good point. So how many lives did not get committed to the Lord? April 12, I think that was Easter this year. And so then all of a sudden you extrapolate that a month and a half later, these protests happen. We ask ourselves, huh, Six weeks earlier, we decided the most important day on the Christian calendar doesn't matter.

A (14:24)

Yeah.

B (14:24)

And all the ripple effects, right, where they go back to their community, say, hey guys, I'm a new person because I'm born new in Jesus Christ. We cut that off now. Some people did it digitally. I'm anti digital. I just am, because I think we're over digitized in our society. And I think it means less. It's not meaningless. I think that people can still give their life. I think it's great. And the numbers and hits and the views. I think there's something irreplaceable to going into a physical place around the person next to you who's crying. And they're having their own experience. All of a sudden there's that eclissia of the gathering of the place.

A (14:51)

Absolutely 100%.

B (14:53)

And so there we have fooled ourselves. We say, I wonder why America is. What's going on here. Very simple. There are 25 million people that are not going to church every single week. It's not that hard.

A (15:05)

That's exactly correct.

B (15:06)

Like this kept our Republic together for 200 years.

A (15:11)

It's what our French friend, what was

B (15:12)

his name from Jacques Rousseau? No, he's not a friend.

A (15:15)

De Tocqueville.

B (15:16)

Oh, Alexis de Tocqueville.

A (15:17)

Yeah, the journeyman. I looked around for America's greatness. It wasn't in our harbor, it was in the pews. It was in the pews, in the pulpits.

B (15:24)

Yes.

A (15:25)

And so listen, you bring this up. So we have been seeing 100, 200 people a week given their hearts to Christ since this reopening. So you make a very, very good point. Where are these people? What has led them to make this decision? The dynamic, the pain, the sorrow. People are now listening who otherwise were not listening before. But to stress the point that you're making is this, that if you believe in spiritual things. I do. I'm a Christian. I believe in the Bible. You mentioned this shutdown happening at Easter time. The attack against the church across these states. Senseless. You can have more people in your casino, but you can't do your church

B (16:08)

or your strip club or your strip club or your marijuana.

A (16:10)

Hey, how about this? No singing. Governor Newsom says no singing. No singing. No gathering, no singing. Weird. But go get an abortion. We're still open. You can still. You go get an abortion. Okay, don't tell me that that is just bad decision making. I think there are spiritual powers behind such conduct. And when you begin to unpack and look, look at the confusion that's out there today.

B (16:36)

Confusion is a tool.

A (16:37)

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And so we're. I. I don't want to sound like a party pooper, but we're being played. People have been completely disabled because of fear. People are afraid of things that don't even exist. Oh my gosh. I forgot my mask. Oh, it's okay. Listen To Fauci, your mask doesn't work. Even Fauci said your mask doesn't work. Oh, what about this? What? Go out. It's okay if you're scared. Go outside. Covid lasts 6 to 32 seconds in UV light. Go outside. No, no, no. Stay indoors.

B (17:09)

Yes.

A (17:09)

That confusion should tell people something's up.

B (17:13)

So.

A (17:13)

Oh, and by the way, Charlie, it's going to get real worse as we approach November.

B (17:18)

Yeah, I'm afraid you're right. But I have a theory, and it's. The Republican establishment isn't saying this. I think that the thing we should focus on most is getting churches open.

A (17:27)

Yes.

B (17:28)

I think if church is open, all of a sudden, moral order gets closed.

A (17:30)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (17:31)

And it's a subtle moral order. Right. And so what Christians have basically decided. And again, I've been very vocal against this. I've talked to a lot of pastors about this and all sorts of different traditions. And I get emails of people that think I'm, you know, out in left field here and say, you're not a pastor. You don't know what you're talking about. It's like, oh, yeah, I guess you must be reading a different book than I am. Sorry. Like, sorry I don't have, like, the special truth access.

A (17:50)

Truth is there.

B (17:51)

Okay, I guess you can tell me something I'm missing. Of course I'm missing. I'm sure I'm missing something. Right?

A (17:57)

Yeah.

B (17:57)

Please give us the wisdom from up on high.

A (17:59)

Yeah.

B (17:59)

Anyway, the point. The point is this. They say, well, you know, we must wait this out. I mean, there was some guy, some megachurch pastor, he said, we're going to stay closed till February or something crazy.

A (18:08)

I can fix that in a second.

B (18:09)

Yeah. But then I ask myself the question. What you're basically saying is you're pricing yourself out of existence. I mean, and they're basically making the argument that a live stream is equivalent. And I'm a big believer in the person that comes to church and they see a friend and all of a sudden they have a common moral connection and they might need a loan or they might need a job or their kid might need a ride to the airport. That is all just gone now. Not in your church. But it just gets disappeared. And then. So you say 100 to 150 people giving their lives to Christ every single week. Well, you extrapolate that to the churches across the country. How many people would have been in the Kingdom of God this calendar year if churches would have remained open?

A (18:47)

Wow, that's an absolutely Petrifying thought, but

B (18:52)

it's just that should just drive chills down everyone's spine. The mathematics of this is there's arguably hundreds of thousands of lost souls that would have been baked into the statistical piece. And every church has it into their. You know this. That they're going to have a certain amount of conversions, hopefully every year. I know they're not happening at a lot of different churches.

A (19:12)

You listen, you can know that. That there's a new movie coming out. There's. There's a movie with Tom Hanks, and it's coming out. Well, we can't go to the theaters, so we can watch it on Hulu or Netflix. We'll just get some popcorn, sit at home and watch it. It's no big deal. It might even be better that you stay at home and watch it. The weird thing about church, for those who have experienced church, and this is why church will never be replaced. You can create the greatest technologies in the world. You can have all the AI you want. It ain't gonna take the place of church because there is something called koinonia. It's the work of the Holy Spirit among brothers and sisters in Christ. It is something that people experience, which you asked me earlier. What are people saying? They're saying this. I felt the presence of God when I pulled into the parking lot.

B (19:57)

Amen.

A (19:58)

I felt the presence of God in even before the service began. Are these people nuts or they experiencing the work of God? And here's the thing. You can stream and some people live somewhere they need to. Or you're shut in. You know, you just had surgery. I get it. But that's not church. The Bible tells us in Hebrews 10:25 that we need to get together.

B (20:18)

Yes.

A (20:18)

Okay. And don't forsake that. If you can't make it to church, you can't make it to church. But if you make it, those two experiences are. You can't even compare the two. Watching church online or being at church. One is a supernatural experience, and it's being there. And you cannot replace that.

B (20:37)

And so we look at our country, I think that the forces of darkness are happy the more churches are closed.

A (20:43)

Absolutely.

B (20:44)

Because then you have no doubt, you have confused people. You have disconnected people. You have people that de. Emphasize the moral order and the moral good. And that's why I say ahead of the election, we got to get every church open. And I wish every church spoke about moral issues like you do. And I want to get into that in a second. But even if they don't Even if they are reciting the Lord's Prayer, even if they are looking at the symbology of the cross. I'm a big believer that most of our decisions are actually made not consciously, especially for most people that don't actually do analytical thinking in human psychology, where most people that. Even if you're attending a church, I think you're far less likely. Far less likely.

A (21:21)

That's right.

B (21:22)

To indulge in these humanistic nihilistic. Because all of a sudden they say, well, there's something great.

A (21:27)

It's like a road sign.

B (21:28)

It's always there. Right. It's almost a hour long advertisement on. Maybe you should reflect and maybe we shouldn't burn down everything in the world. But when you just remove that, then something has to fill that void. Right. And social protest or in burning down American cities.

A (21:47)

Charlie, look where America has gone since the removal. What 1962, 63 prayer and 10 command.

B (21:54)

Perplexing to me. I say this to journalists and they think I'm some sort of, you know, extremist. I say prayer should be in every single school across the country. If not, the funding should be pulled.

A (22:04)

Absolutely.

B (22:05)

And they're like, oh, you're crazy. I'm like, really?

A (22:08)

The founding Fathers wouldn't open Congress without prayer.

B (22:11)

But then also. Exactly. But then I say, and this is a deeper point, is that you guys have your own prayer. What are you talking about? I say you guys recite all of BLM's nonsense. Yeah. Like incantation.

A (22:23)

Incantations.

B (22:24)

Or they. You guys put white fragility like it's First Peter.

A (22:27)

I mean, it's so true.

B (22:28)

You guys put forward Nikole Hannah Jones in the 1619 Project. As if I'm reading proverbs.

A (22:33)

Yes.

B (22:34)

This idea that you can remove human man, search for meaning. Viktor Frankl.

A (22:39)

Yep.

B (22:39)

You're going to replace it with garbage.

A (22:42)

Absolutely. The scripture says that God has put eternity in our hearts. So if you. If you're a follower of God or not, you're following something because you've got that hole.

B (22:50)

Yes.

A (22:51)

That you want to connect.

B (22:52)

There's only one thing that can fill it.

A (22:54)

Exactly.

B (22:55)

And there's a falseness. That there is a false appearance or a mirage that can fill it. And the left tries to do that.

A (23:01)

Absolutely.

B (23:02)

So you are supportive of President Trump?

A (23:04)

I am.

B (23:05)

As a pastor.

A (23:06)

I am of a church. Yes.

B (23:08)

In California.

A (23:09)

100%.

B (23:10)

Tell us more.

A (23:11)

First of all, I'm committed to my state. I have an. I have a. I know this is going to sound crazy, but I was born and raised here. I'm very possessive of my state. I know, know the history of my state. My state, for example, has a series of missions that were planted at the same time the U. S. Revolution was taking place against England. California is experiencing the building and planting from 1772 to 1776 of the mission station.

B (23:37)

That's a great point.

A (23:38)

Right. The gospel is being preached on this end of the continent and there's been great revivals here. Having said that, California is a gem for all kinds of reasons. Here's the deal. California has so hit the bottom. And I know Ben Shapiro and I share this. Ben, Ben says hang on to California because it's so bad it has to turn good. I believe that we've hit it so bad when, when you see Democrats come to church and change their party affiliation in the courtyard, in voter registration, we've never seen that before. When you have people saying we've gone too far. I had a chance to tell President Trump in the Roosevelt Room, President Trump, please come and campaign in California. And he said, california, it's corrupt. I said, yes, sir, it is. He goes, it's impossible. I said, yeah, but rumor has it that you love the impossible.

B (24:25)

Yeah.

A (24:25)

And he said, do you think I could win California? And they said, I don't know. But I know this. If there's a, if there's a Democrat or a Republican president that could snatch California from the Democrat grip, you're the man. And so I do believe, I believe that California can turn around and we cease. We see sights of this now. There was a bill. We're going to announce it tonight. There was a bill that was absolutely. Charlie, there's no way that it was going to be stopped. They had a super majority and it was a $15 million funded bill that would pay beginning at the eight year mark of a public school child. If that child wanted a hormone replacement to change their gender, the California taxpayer was going to pay for it. It was scheduled to go through. Guess what happened. We don't know why. It was just pulled yesterday. It was pulled. It will not be voted on. Did this church call by the thousands? Yes, we know that for a fact. Did it matter? We don't know. That brings us hope.

B (25:20)

Yes.

A (25:20)

And in the 25th district, Mike Garcia, who wasn't supposed to win, no Republican had won the 25th district. Yep. In 53 or 55 years, Mike Garcia

B (25:31)

wins by 10 points or so.

A (25:33)

It was so big that the, the other team didn't even contest it. That's how big it was. So there's hope.

B (25:38)

California, you know, in the 60s and 70s, California was what was best about America.

A (25:44)

That's right.

B (25:44)

In a lot of ways, California, in the California you grew up, people really didn't care where you were from. It was kind of a place where you could reinvent yourself completely.

A (25:52)

Exactly.

B (25:53)

And what do you do? That was the question that people would always ask in California. And because no one was actually from California in the 60s and unless your, you know, grandfather was a missionary. But it was basically. But if you actually look at the songs and the, the movies that we enjoyed in the 70s and 80s especially, it was so glamorized in California, and for good reason. It was a place that you pick yourself up and the weather is great, but you could go create something.

A (26:17)

You could be somebody like Steve Jobs.

B (26:19)

Yeah.

A (26:20)

You could actually make a company called Apple. You could be inventors of the, of the aerospace industries. You name it.

B (26:29)

Yes.

A (26:31)

Look at Elon Musk. California was his on and on it goes.

B (26:35)

It now is.

A (26:36)

Now it's a place that strangles.

B (26:38)

Dystopian now.

A (26:39)

Absolutely. Now, you know, sadly, because he's, you know, he's not far from here as SpaceX and Tesla, but they're packing up and they're heading out of town.

B (26:47)

So you support the president?

A (26:48)

Yes.

B (26:48)

Why?

A (26:49)

Pro life. I start right there. Well, I don't like his tweets. Who cares about his tweets? The man's policies are pro life. Well, I don't like his hair. I don't care about his hair. You know what? The guy's strong on borders. Well, I don't know if that's fair or not. Why don't you go with us? I've taken a bunch of pastors down to the border and took a tour and they showed us where all the drug trafficking and all the human trafficking had to stop because they shut down with the wall, the fence, and they made it so much more difficult for these horrible human beings to traffic these drugs and humans across the border. Ask border agents down there what they think about Trump's policy. So pro life number one, I'm going to vote for Donald Trump in this election because he's pro life. The Bible, my God makes it clear I need to speak up for those who have no voice, those who are destined to be destroyed. Proverbs and Biden's the exact opposite. Democrat Party. Look at the platforms. Just read the platforms. You don't have to get bogged down in the candidates. Read the platforms. If you approach a Judeo Christian worldview, you have got to Vote Republican down the ballot because of the pro life position alone. Yeah, but they might vary over here. I don't care. Let's start with the thing that matters most with God. It's pro life. But when you talk about military. I'm a big military guy. Stop and ask a man or a woman in uniform. Trump has transformed the whole atmosphere of our military. So go down that list. I'm for Donald Trump. But listen, can I say this, Charlie? I don't believe. And it's really stupid for us to believe that. Oh, I don't know. I don't know if I can vote or not. Because. Because what? Well, this person, he's a little off in this area. Listen, can we get this straight? The Messiah is not arriving on Air Force One. The answer is not in the State House or in the White House. It's in God's house. But the Bible commands us to pick for ourselves leaders. And boy, doesn't that kind of sound like the republic we live in?

B (28:51)

Yes. And so go further into that. And then I have some thoughts. A lot of Christians say I can't vote for Donald Trump. And even worse, pastors are now going against Donald Trump and either being neutral or going to Joe Biden. A lot of people listening to this have very weak pastors. They go to churches that are not political. Here you are pastoring a church where 14,000 people show up, a lot to lose. You double down, triple down, and you're actually flourishing and growing.

A (29:18)

Right.

B (29:19)

Comment on all of that.

A (29:21)

I think. Pastor. Listen, pastors, I'm going to be straight up with you.

B (29:25)

Please be very honest.

A (29:27)

I guess you can go to seminary and get your degree and get a job and it's called being a pastor. Or you can go to seminary and get your degree and be called of God. And if you're called of God, you're not going to be manipulated. You're not going to test the breeze on social media to see if your decisions are right. You're not going to be checking your Twitter account numbers. You're a pastor. Jesus made it very, very clear. If you really stand with me, you're going to be hated. Isn't that weird? Jesus was the most loving human to ever grace this planet, but he's the most hated. That's my goal, is to be the most hated and the most loving. Why? Because evil will hate what's good, evil will hate what God says. As a pastor, I'm supposed to blow the trumpet on the wall to educate the community, the church and beyond. So it's not about being relevant, Charlie.

B (30:20)

I always tell people, Christians in particular, we're going to dive into this tonight, which is that you have to understand you're electing a government, not a king. And so the person that you are voting for actually is the figurehead of a movement and even a deeper philosophy. So instead of Donald Trump versus Biden, it really should be reason versus Arson of America. And it's quite, it's unbelievably simple. And so because you're actually electing a multi thousand person government that is going to be staffing micro decisions every single day. And people say, I don't like his tweets. And I say, well, that's a really bad reason to go vote for someone who is going to take what do you a Molotov cocktail to our country.

A (31:05)

I know this is your show, but can I ask you a question?

B (31:07)

Of course you can.

A (31:07)

What do you honestly think when somebody says something like that? When they say, oh, Charlie, I know I can't vote for him. I don't like his tweets. Do you know what I think? I think I'm talking to one of the most shallow people on the planet.

B (31:19)

Yes and no. I think you're probably right. And I also think this is what, this is a problem in Christianity. And I think you have done an amazing job of educating people against this. And I don't know if you're a Calvinist or not, but I see this

A (31:33)

in Calvinist, I'm like 7.92.

B (31:37)

Are you a 7.9 Calvinist or something?

A (31:39)

Or 5, 4.97.

B (31:41)

Are you all of them or no?

A (31:42)

But I mean, I say this for

B (31:44)

a reason though, and because I grew up in a lot of Calvinist circles and there is a self righteousness that sets in certain Calvinist circles.

A (31:51)

There's no doubt about that.

B (31:52)

And so I grew up in the Presbyterian Church. I grew up in that and I'm no longer that. And I'm not sure if I agree

A (31:57)

with Paul Calvin exactly.

B (31:58)

I'm kind of confused, honestly. And I just read about it. I think that's okay because I get the big things, I think. But I do think that the committed Calvinists, the people that literally go to Calvin College, there's a virtue signaling self righteousness.

A (32:12)

There's no doubt about that.

B (32:13)

And there is a, there's an elevation to the nose that goes up and you see it and all of a sudden it's him. I know how good of a person I am.

A (32:23)

Exactly.

B (32:23)

Me vote him. Whoa, hold on. I'm one of the.

A (32:26)

It's like. It's like they're being tainted by voting for elect. He.

B (32:29)

He's not elect. And. And they don't vocalize it, but my goodness, do they circle the wagons around it?

A (32:36)

I have heard. I'm not going to say his name, but I have heard a very renowned pastor say in an interview, it was a podcast where the interviewer, who's a national home name guy, said to this pastor, what about we the people? What about our First Amendment right? And that pastor said, it was wrong for us to break with the crown of England. Our rebellion against England was disobedience to God, and it never should have happened. And that. That interviewer who you, you know, you talked him about an hour ago on the phone, he almost fell off his chair.

B (33:13)

Well, I'm not Catholic because they overused this term, but I'm gonna use it. That's heretical. I mean, it is.

A (33:19)

It is.

B (33:19)

That's heresy.

A (33:20)

It is to say that. And the. And the Jew that was doing the interview knew it. He was what?

B (33:26)

Wow.

A (33:27)

So we're living in a big mistake that we created out of rebellion. I don't believe that I've read enough of the Founding Fathers mail to see so much of what God was doing.

B (33:37)

Well, and I also, I take Romans 13 in context. It was before Nero's persecution of Christians in Rome. And I also think that if we just study natural law, natural rights and natural law, which are two separate things, but very similar, but the idea of natural rights came from natural law. And Aristotle was one of the pioneers. But really, natural law is completely harmonic with the teachings of the Bible. And so anything that you find evident, evidentiary in the. In the nature actually is completely consistent with how God commands us of nature

A (34:08)

and nature's God, which was in the Declaration. Right.

B (34:11)

And so then I find. And, you know, it's really interesting, I got this long email from a guy that is incredibly smart. He's actually probably too smart because he overthought. He's overthinking. Right. You know, the type of person you're completely overthinking.

A (34:22)

They become a legend in their own mind. It's amazing.

B (34:24)

Yeah, it's really. It's like, you are not Aquinas. Like, let's just be very clear at all. Like, what. I'm not Rene Descartes. Like, yes, that's correct. You're not. Sorry. I'm not either. Pretend to be. He says, well, I think that the American founding was. I think America and our founding has turned into idolatry. When Christians get into nationalism and I say, well, this is my decision making matrix. The first, the most important thing ever that you could do is commit your life to Jesus Christ. The next thing is to make sure you can do the first thing.

A (34:53)

Yeah, that's right.

B (34:54)

Have more people been able to do that because of America?

A (34:56)

Right.

B (34:57)

Yes or no?

A (34:57)

Yeah. And to do that you've got to have a nation's atmosphere free for you

B (35:03)

to preach the gospel and civil society spread like the gospel, which allowed the gospel to spread because of America. Without civil society, there's no gospel.

A (35:10)

But how about this? See, people throw things out there like this.

B (35:13)

Yeah.

A (35:14)

Oh, you know what? That's nationalism. Well, you want to label it like that. Well, it's patriotism.

B (35:20)

It's all what you mean. What they're really trying to say is Djangoistic. I find nothing wrong with loving your nation.

A (35:26)

First of all, is it not found in the Bible that God says both in the book of Daniel and in the book of Acts, that he has appointed the nations of the world and has established the inhabitants within those nations? So for example, from scripture, a Jew should be glad that he's a Jew and he should defend his Jewish state, and so should a Saudi Arabian and so should a Canadian and so should a German who says, God has put that in your heart. He has. In fact, the idea of nations, the Bible's replete with this because the Bible ultimately tells us in the end, before the judgment, he will gather together every kindred tribe, tongue and nation.

B (36:10)

And Christ said, go make disciples of all nations. Yeah, and so it's a very good point. And I think what we don't recognize, we don't teach our fellow Christians enough. And you do a great job of. This is the Declaration of Independence, which is our birth certificate writing down to King George, who himself was a misrepresentation of the Church of England. Yes. What a great ruler. Right? Sure. And by the way, the entire idea of the Anglican Church, I could get into that a different time, but let's just get into it. But you had Protestant freedom seeking Christians.

A (36:44)

That's right.

B (36:44)

Who founded this country.

A (36:45)

That's right.

B (36:46)

My lineage goes back to 1620. Alphonsus Kirk came to this country in 1620 as a Protestant seeking freedom lover. I can date my lineage all the way back to William Wallace and his clan, but that's a different conversation every time. The point is though, that the rebellion against tyranny is something that's literally in my blood. And I think that. And again, some Christians disagree with this But I actually think that God wants you to live in a state of liberty. I really do.

A (37:15)

It's very clear in scripture. Yeah, can you talk about.

B (37:17)

Yeah.

A (37:17)

Scripture tells Paul, Paul tells Timothy that we need to pray for all those who are in authority over us. Listen, listen for the. Yeah, listen for the reason. Listen, listen, listen. As to why the reason we need to pray for all those who are in authority over us that we might live a quiet and peaceable life. Doesn't that sound, does that sound like taking a plunge into a refreshing pool right now with all the lunacy taking place in Portland and Seattle? And God wants us to live a quiet and peaceable life. Man, that's awesome.

B (37:52)

And so when you have a country that is founded on biblical principles that allows the gospel to spread like wildfire, hundreds of millions and billions of people coming to the gospel because of America.

A (38:03)

It's true.

B (38:04)

Civil society did not exist within prior to America.

A (38:06)

It didn't. That's right.

B (38:07)

The closest thing we had was a small couple examples of couple hundred years of Israel where the law was the center. And then they said, give us a king, it disintegrates Greece, which really got a lot wrong. And eventually that disintegrates Rome, which went from republic to an empire. But America's example was so perfect because.

A (38:26)

That's right.

B (38:27)

Inspired by the Bible. Executive, legislative, judicial.

A (38:30)

Found in Scripture, by the way that

B (38:32)

Trinity found in scripture. If I'm not some Isaiah.

A (38:35)

Very good.

B (38:37)

Where God is the three things and it takes exactly where they fall.

A (38:41)

He's the lawgiver.

B (38:41)

He's exactly right. And so you have this nation then founded by Christians. And they said, well, Ben Franklin was a deist. First of all. All of them recognized that there was a supernatural power. Secondly, they all had their different sorts of blends and let's just say inclinations towards Christianity. But the population was incredibly Christian. I mean, there's no doubt.

A (39:06)

You know, it's funny, Charlie, the people that want to use Franklin and Jefferson as being the most deist. Yeah, Franklin and Jefferson have got some of, if not the greatest quotes as to why this nation should be quote Christian and why it was the Bible that they used. You know, I don't know if people realize this, but Thomas Jefferson was tapped to study, as they all did. But Jefferson, especially John Locke's two volume set of government.

B (39:36)

Yes, well, and what in that two

A (39:38)

volume set there's something like 1400 references to scripture.

B (39:41)

That's what. Locke was a committed Christian and he disagreed with Hume on this. Hume was an atheist. And Locke, Locke set human civilization forward a thousand years.

A (39:50)

Absolutely.

B (39:51)

Because he said the Bible says very, very plainly, you're neither slave nor Greek, nor Jew. That means that you're made individually. Huh? If you're made individually, Rene Descartes, as I think, therefore I am Enlightenment thinking the Bible's the word of God. Why don't we have a civil government around these two things? And that seems so ridiculously obvious, right?

A (40:13)

Not only that, but it's in the Bible where you get private property ownership.

B (40:18)

Well, Abraham bought the land.

A (40:20)

Yes.

B (40:21)

To be able to bear, to bury his son and the lineage bond and his wife.

A (40:26)

And think about that. Private.

B (40:26)

He bought her. Right.

A (40:27)

Private ownership of anything. But think about the Bible says, and look, clearly assumes ownership. If it says in the Old Testament if your donkey goes and kicks some other person, okay, you're responsible for your donkey's actions, okay. And if somebody's cow walks into your land and it breaks its leg because you left a hole open in the ground, you're responsible to pay that guy back, you know, double cow or whatever it is, you know, that's a great way. Responsibility, ownership. Personally, it's clear through scripture, it flies in the face. The Bible flies in the face of this modern bizarre putrification of socialism in the church.

B (41:02)

Yes.

A (41:02)

Oh no, no. The Bible is socialistic. No, it's not. Not even a stretch.

B (41:07)

Yeah, well. And exactly right. And Marx was a committed deconstructionist.

A (41:12)

Absolutely.

B (41:13)

And an angry, above average talented author at the right time who saw rapid industrialization of the European economy and he was actually laughed out of his circle.

A (41:22)

He was jealous.

B (41:22)

Yeah, he was a jealous, envious person who didn't believe in God and he actually wasn't taken seriously until a power hungering autocrat by the name of Vladimir Lenin actually applied his horrendous ideas and only 60 million people died in that example. And what's really interesting, and the more I have studied and have thought about this and I can't wait to read, I love reading and learning about this stuff. But the more I realize that God gives us these laws not because he wants to be the fun police. You know, that's kind of how it is portrayed sometimes. But actually if you apply the teachings, your life is going to actually get to become quiet and peaceful.

A (42:01)

Right. And he says peaceable. I'm sorry, he said you'll live long, you'll live blessed. Look, I mean I'm not a prosperity preaching person at all, but the Bible does say that if you put him first and seek him, that God will favor your life. That doesn't mean you're going to get rich, but it means that your life's going to have the favor of God.

B (42:20)

I think it's very simple, right? I mean, I tell this to young men all the time, and they say, well, Charlie, you know, how am I supposed to act? I say, well, you know, protect yourself and your innocence and don't go around sleeping around with everyone. They say, well, everyone does that. I say, well, you're going to be miserable.

A (42:35)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (42:36)

And they say, well, no, that's the fun thing. I said, no, you're going to be miserable.

A (42:38)

Boy, that's.

B (42:39)

And so that's the. It's like you actually do it. You're actually going to be more content. Yeah, because God loves you and wants you that way.

A (42:47)

Exactly. And the Bible talks about that very, very thing. It is human desire. Without Christ governing our thoughts, we are constantly tempted. We get that it's human desire to go be with that other person, but that's bio. That's biology. Yeah. God says, morally, hey, you know what? It's really not good for you because some people think he's up there, like, waiting for somebody to step out.

B (43:07)

That's exactly right. Like he's some sort of Elizabeth Warren librarian. He's Elizabeth Warren, yeah. Like, stop doing that. Like.

A (43:13)

But he's. He's actually saying, hey, guess what? You know what? I made fences and this whole thing called humanity. And you really do well when you operate within these fences and. And emotionally, you won't be broken.

B (43:24)

If you go.

A (43:24)

If you go sleep around. I want my liberty. Are you sure it's liberty? Because momentarily, it's a blast. But. But long lived. It's total bondage. It's total imprisonment.

B (43:35)

At Harvard, they will remove this, Guarantee it.

A (43:38)

Just.

B (43:38)

You've heard it here first. There's something at the Harvard Law School. It says the laws are the wise restraints that keep men free. Yeah, I can't remember who they're quoting, but it's at Harvard.

A (43:53)

I mean, you know, you mentioned Harvard,

B (43:55)

which is a soulless institute.

A (43:56)

You know, I don't. Do you remember where the main entrance is? It's kind of.

B (43:58)

I've been to Camp Humble.

A (44:00)

It's kind of Humble, but it was. In the day. It was the main entrance. If you want to the main gate. Before you pass through the gate, there's two. This beautiful brick on either side and there's bushes.

B (44:10)

I know exactly. I've been there many times.

A (44:12)

And if you go to the right, if you crawl through the right Bush. The right hand side.

B (44:16)

You've crawled through this?

A (44:16)

I have. You go through the bush. Listen, everybody try this. Go to Harvard. Go to the main gate and go to the right and separate the bush and read the plaque that's on the wall. It says that this, that this college. It says this college has been planted on this day such and such a blank blank to the furtherance of the Gospel, to the equipping of ministers to them to this continent.

B (44:41)

So about mission creep.

A (44:42)

It has a mission statement at Harvard and it's covered by a bush in

B (44:46)

the logo of Harvard. You know what the logo of Harvard is?

A (44:49)

I would say a Bible. Maybe Let there be light. Something like this.

B (44:52)

It's close. It's close. It's a Latin phrase. V E R I T A S. You put that there. Ver ritas. Which means truth. That's right.

A (45:01)

How about this? Who started Harvard University?

B (45:04)

John. Harvard.

A (45:05)

Right. What was his occupation?

B (45:06)

I don't know.

A (45:07)

A pastor.

B (45:08)

I was gonna say that, but I didn't want to swing and miss. Every one of the Ivy League schools was founded as a separate type of seminary. Princeton Presbyterian.

A (45:16)

One of the greatest thinkers America has ever produced. Jonathan Edwards. I believe I may be wrong, but I'm really close. He was either the president of Yale or of Princeton.

B (45:27)

You're right. He had some form of leadership role in the Northeast there. We're going to talk about this. And that's why everyone has to continue to be subscribed to the Charlie Kirk show, because we're going to get into this. I really want to build out this idea that America is built on slavery. It's one of the most nonsensical things. But as we're kind of winding down our time here. Jack, speak to Christians right now directly that are confused and looking for clarity. And it's a very important word, clarity. I think we as Christians have to be. We have to get our words right better. And you do a great job of this. But Christ gives you clarity because Christ is truth. Think about how fulfilling you are. And I use this example all the time. You're on a road trip and you say you got to go from your Belinda to Phoenix. No map, no markings. You're going to get lost. You're confused, right? But as soon as you have a gps, you have clarity. You have faith in your future destination, right? That can be applied towards renewing yourself in Christ because there's no truth in not knowing where you're going. And I think that Christ gives you such clarity to how to act, what to do where you're going, what happens when you die, why we're here, how to vote.

A (46:34)

That's right.

B (46:34)

All this. Can you kind of build all that out?

A (46:36)

Yeah. Listen, Jesus said, the scripture says first of all that we should shine our light, which means that we are to take truth light synonymous with truth and revelation. So Jesus says to the Christians, go and shine your light. So we're to do that. So to the Christians that are listening right now, I sarcastically lay this out before you. Where did Jesus say not to shine your light? Well, I don't vote. Well, you need to repent and start voting for this reason because you are. You sit in a nation that was given to you by the blood, sweat and tears and more blood of those who have fought for your freedoms. We have been heirs of this amazing experiment. We just celebrated 244 years of an amazing miracle. Longest go, longest nation to history to exist in the history of man with one the same governing document. It's a gift.

B (47:28)

That's exactly right.

A (47:28)

And America is the gift to the world. And what we need to do is we need to protect it. And you can see where, what happens when we don't protect it. We see the lawlessness and the craziness in our streets. We need to take what God has given us. We all have different theaters of influence, but we all have one. And we need to do the right thing. It's called righteousness. By the way, Christians are mandated to do the right thing. That means you must vote for the pro life individual. You must speak up in your community for what's rights. You must hold the PTA in the school board accountable. You must get involved and stop being distracted and stop letting the cultural breeze move you like a reed blowing left or right. You've got to find how this ends. And if it terminates, as God says, where we, we all will give an account for how we've lived our lives and what we did with our life for the better. That's, that's the gps. We know where we started.

B (48:30)

Exactly right.

A (48:31)

And we know now the Christian who reads the Bible knows the clarity. They know where they're going to land. And listen, someday, here's what's cool. I may fight the, the state on an issue that's horrific and I lose. You know what? I stood for what's right. In the end, I'm gonna win because I stood for the thing that honored God. But you lost. No, I didn't. I lost the battle. In the end, the Bible says I win the war. There's a Terminus. That is dead serious. And that's what I'm set on.

B (48:59)

Two thoughts. The persecution of American Christians is real, but the, the celebrity pastors, they don't even understand slightly what the early Christians had to go through. The Middle Eastern Christians have to live through. And so here's my decision making matrix. I try to think of things very logically and this is why I break it down with a Christian and say, well, I don't, I don't like to vote, I don't like any of these people and I'm a Christian. It's most important thing. I say, okay, fine. I say, do you think God cares about what you do? They say, oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay, got it. Is voting something you do? Yes. So does God care about how or if you vote? I never thought of it.

A (49:44)

Exactly. They've never thought so.

B (49:47)

So God cares. For example, would you go marry two people? No, I wouldn't go be polygamous. I would never do that. That's against the teaching. I agree. Good for you. Would you go and tell and pay someone to go have an abortion? I would never go do that. Okay, got it. Those are actions, right?

A (50:06)

Right.

B (50:07)

And you have guardrails like, I will not go do that.

A (50:10)

That's right.

B (50:10)

That's an action. God doesn't want me to do that for many reasons. First I'll tell you, immoral also. It'll harm you, harm the world, all these sorts of things. Then explain to me very clearly why a mechanism that exists in our country, you refuse to engage. And that is something that you do. They say, well, I don't do it. That means you're still doing something.

A (50:31)

That's right.

B (50:32)

The not doing is an act.

A (50:34)

That's right. Absolutely.

B (50:36)

It's like saying, well, I didn't stand up. You're right. You sat down.

A (50:38)

That's right.

B (50:39)

You still did something.

A (50:40)

That's right.

B (50:41)

And so that's. That's how I come about the enactment.

A (50:44)

Charlie, have you ever been to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, the Holocaust Museum?

B (50:48)

No, I've been outside of it. I haven't been inside of it.

A (50:51)

It's.

B (50:52)

I've been to Jerusalem a couple times.

A (50:53)

There's a famous statement there. I think it's by Martin Niemoller, but I'm not sure. It. It could be by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It's one or the other. There is a statement there and I'm going to botch it a little bit, but I'm close. It says, when they came for the unionist, I didn't speak up. Because I wasn't a unionist. When they came for the homosexual, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a homosexual. When they came for the Jew, I didn't speak up because I wasn't. And then when they came for me, there was nobody who would speak up for me. And this thing about silence and not being engaged. I'm sorry. I know. We hear our dear president talk about the silent majority, Charlie. I hope they're out there. But if they're really out there, can they stop being silent?

B (51:38)

Amen.

A (51:38)

We need them to speak up.

B (51:40)

This is to be continued. So what's your YouTube channel?

A (51:43)

I don't know.

B (51:45)

Real Life with Jack.

A (51:45)

It's Real Life with Jack Hibbs.

B (51:47)

Check it out. And then you also have a podcast. Subscribe all of that. Email me questions for Jack Freedom. Charliekirk.com Jack, this has been awesome. Thanks.

A (51:56)

Incredible.