Relationships, Marriage and the Transition into Manhood with Pastor Rob McCoy

Summary

---

The Charlie Kirk Show

Episode: Relationships, Marriage and the Transition into Manhood with Pastor Rob McCoy

Date: September 13, 2020
Host: Charlie Kirk
Guest: Pastor Rob McCoy

---

Overview

In this Sunday episode, Charlie Kirk sits down with Pastor Rob McCoy of Calvary Chapel, Thousand Oaks, for a heartfelt conversation that moves away from the usual political discussion to focus on deep personal and cultural issues. The episode covers the impacts of pandemic lockdowns on young people, the crisis of masculinity, substance abuse, mental health, the meaning and structure of marriage, and practical wisdom for relationships and personal growth. Drawing from biblical principles, personal anecdotes, and influences like Jordan Peterson, Kirk and McCoy offer guidance on transitioning to manhood, finding intimacy, and building a meaningful life.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pandemic Effects: Mental Health, Isolation, and Lockdowns

[06:38–08:11]

• Charlie Kirk notes a dramatic increase in emails from young people struggling with mental health, relationships, and substance abuse, worsened by pandemic lockdowns.
• Rob McCoy explains his church's decision to remain open:

  “People think it’s about religious liberty… but the greatest reason is we love our neighbor. We’re concerned about the youth in our community.” (07:09)

  • Young people missed milestones (graduations, proms), while stores deemed non-essential (liquor, cannabis) remained accessible.

2. Crisis of Masculinity and Transition into Manhood

[08:11–10:53]

• Rob McCoy discusses how boys, including his own sons, need rites of passage and responsibility:

  “When he was 13, I took him on a walkabout… like a bar mitzvah… Every great journey begins with the end in mind.” (08:20)

• Use of Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life to instill responsibility and self-control.

Jordan Peterson’s Influence
[10:53–14:47]

• Charlie Kirk credits Peterson for powerfully defending Christianity and igniting a new passion for biblical wisdom, attracting even those disaffected by the church.

  “Jordan Peterson has done more to defend and advance the gospel of Jesus Christ than most Christian pastors ever will.” (10:53)

• Peterson’s arguments on biblical harmony and his practical advice are praised.
  • 12 Rules for Life offers an antidote to chaos, rooted in the idea that fulfillment requires order, vision, and self-control.

3. Facing Nihilism & Building Responsibility

[15:01–18:24]

• Kirk recounts helping a suicidal young man by reframing responsibility:

  “If you don’t show up somewhere tomorrow, does someone have a harder day? If the answer is yes, then you’re responsible for something or someone. It’s called being a man, provider and protector.” (16:18)

• Discussion on economic pressures altering family structures—both parents working and the resultant impact on youth.
  • “If there’s not a human being waiting for that 15-year-old when he gets home at 3pm from school, everything drops off the ledge. It’s just the way it is.” (19:01)

4. Loss of Traditional Pathways to Manhood

[19:31–20:56]

• Rob McCoy highlights the loss of traditional rites of passage (Boy Scouts, sports) and their importance:

  “Anything that’s a transition to manhood, whether it’s Boy Scouts, football, etc., they’re deconstructing all of that intentionally.” (20:34)

5. Practical Guidance for Young Men

[22:33–25:27]

• Charlie Kirk gives actionable advice from Peterson’s “Maps for Meaning”—writing out your five-year vision to create direction.
  • “You have to understand that we as human beings are aiming creatures… For lack of vision, the people perish.” (23:23, McCoy quoting Proverbs)
• Importance of subtracting harmful behaviors to multiply life’s quality:

  “What if you went one month with no drinking, no drugs, no bad food, you exercise every day?” (24:39)

6. On Sin, Sacrifice, and Self-Help

[26:13–26:56]

• Key distinction between secular and Christian views on sin:

  “The secular culture says sin makes you free... Whereas in Christ, it’s actually the sacrifice of that sin where you get true liberty.” (26:40)

---

7. Biblical Foundations of Marriage and Intimacy

[27:20–37:04]

• Rob McCoy describes the biblical origin of marriage:

  “It’s not good that man should be alone. God created marriage to resolve the aloneness of man… That’s what God said.” (28:04)

• Marriage is more than procreation—it’s about relational intimacy and “naked and unashamed” union (Genesis).
• Marital roles:

  “It doesn’t mean that they're not equal. It just means they have different roles…” (29:45)

• The familial structure as illustrated in Ephesians 5-6: God > Husband > Wife > Children, with a focus on protection and the sacrificial role of men.

8. Types of Love: Eros, Agape, Phileo

[32:47–40:06]

• Rob McCoy explains the Greek terms for love, using vivid examples:
  • Eros: Self-centered, objectifying; root of pornography and “what can I get?” mentality.
  • Agape: Selfless, giving; “the love a mother has for her child.”
  • Phileo: Mutual, shared love; achieved by mutual self-giving.

Memorable anecdote:

• McCoy shares a personal story of loss, abortion, and tragedy:

  “For the first time in my life, I realized I love somebody more than I love myself… God said, Rob, what’s the difference? ... One day of this [agape] for a thousand of these [Eros]…” (Interspersed, 36:00–37:00)

• Sex vs. Love: “Love is what can I give. Sex is what can I get. Intimacy comes when you lay your life down.” (~39:30)

9. The Meaning of Manhood and Sexual Restraint

[40:05–41:36]

• Addressing a high schooler’s skepticism about sexual restraint before marriage:

  “The reason why God takes the fourth most intense drive … is to teach you how to serve, to lay your life down so when the day comes, you know how to serve a family and care for them.” (40:36)

---

Notable Quotes

• “You are a lot tougher than you might think. There’s someone that needs you out there.” — Charlie Kirk (07:40)
• “For lack of vision, the people perish.” — Rob McCoy quoting Proverbs (23:23)
• “Intimacy comes when you lay your life down, you serve another human being.” — Rob McCoy (~39:30)
• “The greatest joys and the breakthroughs are actually what happens when you make a tough, tough goal, a tough aim. You challenge and you actually—you forego the instant gratification…” — Charlie Kirk (25:19)
• “God’s not cruel. He’s in the business of making men. Men are providers and protectors.” — Rob McCoy (41:30)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:38 – Young people’s struggles under lockdowns; mental health crisis
• 08:11 – Initiating boys into manhood; learning responsibility
• 10:53 – The influence of Jordan Peterson, defending Christianity
• 13:00 – Biblical application beyond just scripture interpretation
• 15:01 – Responding to a suicidal young man: importance of responsibility
• 19:31 – Erosion of rites of passage and impact on masculinity
• 22:33 – Maps for Meaning: creating a five-year vision (practical advice)
• 26:13 – Sin, restraint, and Christian liberty
• 27:20 – Biblical view of marriage; addressing loneliness and intimacy
• 32:47 – Types of love: Eros, Agape, Phileo, and personal stories
• 40:05 – Sexual self-control as a lesson in service and manhood
• 41:36 – Closing reflections, encouragement, and practical next steps

---

Final Thoughts

• Dialogue and Community:
  Kirk encourages listeners struggling with depression or direction to reach out, reinforcing the importance of having conversations and seeking help.
• Manhood, Purpose, and Serving Others:
  The conversation ties personal responsibility, delayed gratification, and serving others as central to both masculinity and Christian life.
• Marriage:
  Marriage is reframed as a sacrificial, protective, and deeply intimate union—a theological blueprint for love and human flourishing.

---

How to Connect

• Email Charlie Kirk: [e-mail]
• Contact Pastor Rob: [e-mail] or Instagram @robmccoy

---

This episode is a moving, practical guide to navigating the turbulence of modern young adulthood, rooted in biblical wisdom and a deeply empathetic, encouraging tone.

Transcript

[Rob McCoy]

Thank you for listening to this Podcast 1 production now available on Apple Podcasts, Podcast 1, Spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hey everybody. Happy Sunday. Welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.

[Podcast Announcer]

This episode is brought to you advertiser free by all of you that Support [e-mail] Support it is Sunday so it is our conversation with Pastor Rob McCoy. We dive into mental health. For those of you struggling with depression, struggling with direction in your life, I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. It's very important traveling the country. I was just in Minnesota, heading to Arizona, then Southern California.

[Charlie Kirk]

We are not stopping.

[Podcast Announcer]

We have a country to save and we are moving quicker and faster than ever to rally the troops to get our President re elected. Before we dive into the interview, my very important interview with Pastor Rob McCoy

[Charlie Kirk]

where we talk about all sorts of things.

[Podcast Announcer]

Marriage, meaning direction, the crisis of masculinity. I want to talk about our [e-mail] t h I n k r.org who distill the greatest books into bite sized format 9 to 15 minutes so you can listen to summaries about them and get the most important information consumed quickly. Thinker.org is one of my favorite partners because they allow millions of people to be able to understand the ideas that built Western civilization. Many of you have been writing [e-mail] asking where's all this headed? What is the left's endgame? What is the road that we are on? And so for this Book of the week for Thinker.org, i thought it would be fitting to talk about one of the most formative books that I read growing up that articulated the problems of central planning, that was able to visualize the tyranny of the majority and also motivate myself and many others to get behind first principles. The book is called Road to Serfdom by Frederik [e-mail] Charlie by the way, you guys can get a discount and you are able to have one month [e-mail] Charlie Road to Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek was right. After World War II, Fa Hayek, who just can be known as Hayek, started to see that England and the United States were beginning to embrace some of the political and economic ideas that had paved the way for collective totalitarian states like Germany, Fascist Italy and Soviet Russia. This is one of the most important political essays ever and definitely in the 20th century. Here are some of the important insights that you will get from Road to serfdom. It is an indictment of central planning. Basically, it argues correctly that malicious and power hungry people inevitably rise to the top of a collectivist society because they are willing to do whatever is necessary. The question is not whether or not we should plan or not plan. The question is who is going to plan and for whom. The word socialism is overused and has managed to confuse proponents and opponents alike. And Hayek argued that central planning put all of your trust into one bucket and one politburo of decisions, does not advance the West's political development. Instead, it disregards Political traditions 2,500 years in the making. If you want to know where we are headed if we continue to pander to BLM Incorporated, continue to raise taxes, continue to drive people out of the inner cities and allow crime to go unaddressed. The book Road to serfdom by F.A. hayek is one of the most important books to understand, articulate and educate your friends [e-mail] Charlie T H I N K R It's very important you spell it correctly. You are able to dive into the this title and so many others. It's not just political books, it's business books. It's health and wellness books, how to win friends and influence people, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Think and grow rich, the 8020 principle outliers, basic economics and more. @thinker.org Charlie in the chaos that we are living through and the bedlam that we are seeing happen in the streets, I think this book, Road to Serfdom, is one of the most important for young people in particular to read. Because Hayek argues that even though it might feel as if one side is pushing for progress, they're actually bringing us back regressively. You've heard me talk about this before, that sometimes when you push so aggressively to move things forward, you actually push things to go backwards. Back to tribalism, away from Socratic dialogue, the disintegration of private property, turning people against each other. You guys can check this out and [e-mail] Charlie thinker.org Charlie I highly encourage everyone here to get a membership, understand these great ideas and dive deeper into the philosophy that built your world and is also trying to destroy your world ideas on both sides. We're going to dive into those ideas and so much more. We talk about this also in my phenomenal and important conversation with with my pastor, Pastor Rob McCoy from Calvary Chapel, Thousand Oaks, California. He has kept his church wide open. No social distancing, no masks. He allows full service in person at his church and he is being persecuted by city, state, local and county officials. Pastor Rob McCoy is a hero. I'm honored to call him my pastor. Enjoy this Sunday episode brought to you by those of you that Support us at charliekirk.com [e-mail] support. Everything you give is matched dollar for dollar by a very generous and anonymous listener who put forth a challenged [e-mail] support. It's Sunday. Buckle up, everybody.

[Charlie Kirk]

Here we go. We are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

[Rob McCoy]

But I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job.

[Charlie Kirk]

We are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show. I'm joined by my pastor and America's pastor, Rob McCoy.

[Rob McCoy]

Thanks, Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

So, quite a moniker. So, Rob, we talk a lot about politics on the show. I actually want to talk about something a little bit different. I get so many emails from young people that are struggling with mental health, with relationships, substance abuse. What we have done to young people in this country by shutting down their country. There are problems that predated the lockdowns, but it only accelerated all these disturbing trends. Can you just comment on this? Because, you know, the media calls, the media labels you as a political pastor, but you're also mentoring and shepherding and healing people that are also dealing with real life issues as well.

[Rob McCoy]

The reason why we're pushing to stay open as a church is for that exact reason. People think it's religious liberty. Now, that granted, that is a portion of it. But the greatest reason is we love our neighbor. We're concerned about the youth in our community that have not been able to graduate or experience a graduation, a prom. They're dealing with substance abuse issues. You know, cannabis distributors are open, liquor stores, abortion factories. Abortion factories. And this generation of young people has just received the brunt of this misery of these draconian measures. And yeah, this is why we're pushing.

[Charlie Kirk]

So some young people. And I think that there's a mental health crisis in our country. And for any young person watching this, there, you're a lot tougher than you might think. There's someone that needs you out there. And we'll talk about what that all means because, and I don't get into the self esteem movement. I think it's all nonsense. Instead, I think that once you have self control, then you can find self worth.

[Podcast Announcer]

It's a very.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's a biblical Principle, but not talked about enough. Rob, can you just talk about some of the crisis you're seeing with young people in relationships and substance abuse, especially in an affluent area like Thousand Oaks? Seems like it's almost worse.

[Rob McCoy]

Absolutely. We've had two psychologists on our program, and both of them say their practices are exploding with young people. The drug uses out of control. We have a heroin epidemic in Ventura county. And interesting. You know, my son's 18. He missed his graduation, he missed his prom. And when he was 13 years old, I took him on a walkabout. You know, boy to man, it's almost like a bar mitzvah.

[Charlie Kirk]

So cool. Tell me about it.

[Rob McCoy]

Well, it's kind of like a bar mitzvah where you go, you're a son of the law, where you go from being a child to being a man, and now you're responsible to the law. And I took him to a cemetery and I said, you know, every great journey begins with the end in mind. I had him observe the tombstone, see what was written on it. What do you live for? What's the meaning of life? We had a long conversation there as a. Flowers of the field are there one day and gone the next. You know, that's. Not many people visit a cemetery. And the idea is, if you want your life to be remembered, it's what you leave behind. And so he got that. And then, you know, we went to where the babies are born, saw the new life, talked about the responsibility of a man, is that your provider and a protector? And I watched him at age 13, both my sons, there was a distinct change in them to receive responsibility at that age. And then I'm watching my 18 year old go through this misery. And one of the things that I did, and it was actually you who inspired it, because I've always liked Jordan Peterson, but you were the one who turned me onto him. I took my son through Jordan Peterson's book, rules on living.

[Charlie Kirk]

12 rules for life.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, 12 rules for life. And we went through that every morning. Now, granted, it's a little bit difficult read, but we had some fun with the scriptures.

[Charlie Kirk]

The rules are easy to understand.

[Rob McCoy]

They are.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's when it starts to get. That's when the easy stuff stops. Right, right. It gets very heady very quickly.

[Rob McCoy]

It does. And, and, but we had the ability to distill it down to, you know, memorable quotes that both of us glean from.

[Charlie Kirk]

For example, sit up straight with your shoulders back. Stand fast and steadfast in the Lord. Yeah, that sort of. I'm paraphrasing the verse, right? I mean, yeah.

[Rob McCoy]

And you're going through the whole thing on crustaceans with lobsters and you know,

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, serotonin levels.

[Rob McCoy]

Serotonin levels. I mean, but you break it down and he really got it and so did I. I was really blessed by it. And I wanted, you know, I know you're asking me questions, but I would. I was so blessed by what you shared with me that you gleaned from Jordan. I want to talk on that. And then there's an angle too that I think young people are struggling with and that's relationally because the victimization culture that we've created has left an entire generation, especially for males. How do you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hyper feminization of our country.

[Rob McCoy]

Hyper feminization. How do you engage? And people are longing for intimacy. And what does that mean nowadays for this, this entire young generation? And, and what are the rules for living? And maybe we can touch on that.

[Charlie Kirk]

I want to get, I mean, you're the expert on that. But if I could comment on the Jordan thing first, please. Jordan Peterson has done more to defend and advance the gospel of Jesus Christ than most Christian pastors ever will never forget. There's a three part series of Jordan Peterson in front of tens of thousands of people. Thousands of people, millions of livestream viewers. I mean, 23 million YouTube views, which is unbelievably hard to get. Each video him versus Sam Harris, a devout atheist, where Jordan Peterson, despite the mockery and the persecution of the atheist chattering class, when they're going after the Bible, he doesn't not just give it an inch, he defends. And he says, you don't understand. There's no other document like this ever created. He says, I can't even quite explain the psychological. And there's something, the psychological truth and the harmony of the book where yes, you can read it sequentially but the entire book harmonizes with itself the more

[Rob McCoy]

you read from beginning to end.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so here's a guy that again comes from the academy. He's a social psychologist, he's a clinical psychologist who's contending for the greatest book ever and for truth and can articulate Christianity better than most pastors I've ever found. And I could tell you, Rob, Jordan Peterson did not bring me to Christ. He didn't. Pastor did that. Actually, a Bible teacher did that in fifth grade. Jordan Peterson set me more on fire for the Gospel of Jesus Christ than most any Christian pastor ever would. You might say, how's that possible? So he also, he goes through chapter by verse, by verse, chapter by chapter, the whole Bible. He does, he actually reads, he doesn't skip verses, he doesn't say this is inconvenient. And he talks about what is the historical, psychological, sociological and cultural impact of, for example, the Tower of Babel. Don't try to build something on this earth too high because God's going to

[Podcast Announcer]

scatter it to chaos.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's true governmentally, that's true sociologically, that's true individually. And so he goes through the entire Bible and it's not just he doesn't look like the Bible as an Aesop fable book. That's not what he does because that's the criticism of him. It's deeper than that. He says Matthew 5 is the most important dialogue in human history. He makes the argument, he does, that Matthew 5 changed the course of human history. And he says even an atheist that doesn't understand Matthew 5 is anti history.

[Rob McCoy]

Amen. The book that you turned me onto

[Charlie Kirk]

is just riddled with biblical wisdom.

[Rob McCoy]

Biblical wisdom, quoting complete chapters of the

[Charlie Kirk]

Bible uninterrupted, not cherry picking, not prosperity gospel stuff.

[Rob McCoy]

We talk about oia, observation, interpretation, application. So when you're teaching, you're observing the text, you're interpreting the text, the original meaning, etc. Breaking down the nuances of the words in the Greek and the Hebrew. But the application is where Jordan Peterson,

[Charlie Kirk]

that's where a lot of Christianity just kind of, I don't think gets it as well.

[Rob McCoy]

They don't understand the public square, they don't understand, you know, and the vast array of education that Jordan Peterson has to be able to bring that into the application of the text is pretty fascinating.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, and also how he doesn't give an inch.

[Podcast Announcer]

What I love is that he has

[Charlie Kirk]

given multiple opportunities by the atheists just to hedge a little bit. Maybe the Bible is just a good document. The best he doesn't, he defends it with more veracity and more personal connection to the text than any person I have ever seen, minus really good Bible believing teachers like yourself and Jack Hibbs. I mean it's the 1% of the 1% of pastors in my opinion that I've seen, that I've experienced. And what's really interesting though is that Jordan and I've seen this thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people, he brought more people to Christ because there were people that were raised in the church, got disaffected by the church. They were raised in observational and interpretive churches but with no application whatsoever. And here he is, he has 12 rules for life, 12 being a biblical number, 12 disciples, 12 tribes of Israel. And he doesn't pick that number out of thin air. He explains why he chose that number. He says that number harmonizes with what a human being can remember, interpret, and actually apply to their life. He has a whole thing on why he chose 12. Not 13, not 11, not 14, not 10, not 8. Anyway, so. But then he goes, Here are the 12 rules that if you follow these

[Podcast Announcer]

rules, your life is going to be

[Charlie Kirk]

a little less awful and a little more meaningful. So he actually comes from this thing that we live in, a grid. He comes from this belief that we

[Podcast Announcer]

live in original sin.

[Charlie Kirk]

And his whole. His whole platform is people are living in a state of chaos. And that's the whole. It's 12 rules for life, an antidote to chaos, that if you live in a state of chaos, you're going to be miserable. So many young people do.

[Rob McCoy]

You took those 12 rules for living, and I watched you masterfully use it. I don't know if you remember this. We were at Calvary Chapel.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think that was the second visit we made with the great Jack Kibbs.

[Rob McCoy]

And there's. We're taking questions from the audience, and a young man comes up who is borderline suicidal. Borderline suicidal. And he asked a poignant question, and it's almost like you could hear a groan in the audience because it reflected many of the children that were represented in the families. And you went through for him. You gave him such great advice. And Jack went on later, Pastor Jack went on later to talk about how that deeply affected that young man. Will you share with everybody? Because that was profound.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. The spirit of his question was, Charlie, is it really worth continuing? Because all the things are rigged against us, conservatives and Christians, Hollywood and media, the immigration system, tech companies. He just goes on and on and on. And so I completely agree those things.

[Rob McCoy]

And he's. And he's a white male.

[Charlie Kirk]

White male. And he's, you know, people are accusing you of things, all these sorts of things.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And he says, what's the point? Almost. Then what ends up happening is he's starting to just. Just start to wonder if there's a nihilistic path for him.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, what's the point? We're polishing brass on the titanium.

[Charlie Kirk]

Precisely. And it's even. Just what. We're all just cells. Might as well end it now. And that's what a lot of young white men are doing right now, by

[Rob McCoy]

the way, especially in the church.

[Charlie Kirk]

In the church a lot. And the church has in my opinion, not had a good answer to this, but using Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life and the Bible, I basically said, all those things are true. None of those are reasons not to live a meaningful life. And I asked him, I said, do you have responsibility in your life? And he says, I don't know. I said, here's the test of responsibility. If you don't show up somewhere tomorrow, does someone have a harder day? If the answer is yes, then you're responsible for something or someone. It's called being a man, provider and protector. You know what the problem with masculinity in our country? There's nothing to provide and there's nothing to protect to. For men, what ends up happening is they say any sort of your instinct to defend the innocent as a man is wrong. That's toxic masculinity. When we're actually called to do as men, to do this, to provide. No, no, no. Women can and should provide at the very same equal levels as men. Now, I'm not against. I think it's reprehensible and immoral and evil and wrong to say that men and women should earn the same, should not earn differently for the same work. I think that is wrong.

[Rob McCoy]

I agree.

[Charlie Kirk]

However, I actually don't. I think it's really bad, Rob. And this is an economic thing that actually impacts cultural and spirituality. And the American church has failed this. Donald Trump has actually addressed this, that in order for a middle class family of $80,000 a year to stay afloat, not go into debt and raise a family of four, they have to work 53 weeks a year. What does that mean?

[Rob McCoy]

Two people have to go to work?

[Charlie Kirk]

Bingo. All of a sudden that's the destruction of the American family right there. Now it should be where it was in the 1985, 33 hours, 30, 33 weeks a year. So they could take a ton of time off and if the male worked 40 weeks a year, their earnings would go up and they'd be able to save some money.

[Rob McCoy]

Michelle and I have been married 30 years. We've got five kids, one, four homegrown, one grafted. Natasha we adopted when she was 12 from Russia. So we've got three daughters, two boys, and she's been a stay at home mom for all 30 years of marriage. And that's a choice that we made together that she wanted to do. Now that meant we lived in some pretty dicey places and he did that on a pastor's salary. But it was critical to us that there would always be somebody home and it's worked. All of our kids are flourishing. Well, yeah, they're doing well.

[Charlie Kirk]

I know all four. I've never met. I don't know if I met Natasha or not.

[Rob McCoy]

Well, she's at liberty right now. She's doing great.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I've met all four. I've met Molly, I've met Kelly, Mikey and of course Daniel. And they're all superstars. Well, thanks for the mother, but I can speak. I could reaffirm.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I'm not trying to say that when two parents work, I'm being very clear that it's necessarily going to be a bad thing for the kid. I'm not, I'm just talking statistics. The statistics are if both parents go into the workforce and if that kid gets home at 3 o' clock when he's 5, when he's 15 years old, he is far more likely to do things he should not be doing in substance abuse and otherwise. It's just the statistics.

[Rob McCoy]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

If there's not a human being waiting for that 15 year old when he gets home at 3pm from school, everything drops off the ledge. It's just the way it is. And some parents might really contest with this. They might say, charlie, you're totally wrong. We got it. You know what? If you have it worked out, God bless you. I'm just talking about what social psychologists with the macro data shows that when both your parents go in the workforce, especially during those formative years of 12, 13, 14, 15, where there is just an incoming of temptation for young people, especially in the modern era, then there's not that check. There's not that check and balance.

[Rob McCoy]

My father was a Navy captain. Three tours of Vietnam, lot of tours on duty, gone quite often. My mother was always home. The connection I had with the transition, as we called into manhood happened in Boy Scouts. Now that's an, that's, that's an institution that's been dismantled by the secular left and it's had troubles, clearly. And, and yet the entire thing has been pretty much, I don't know, dismantled. It's still existing, but not what it was.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, Boy Scouts. Yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, disaster now.

[Rob McCoy]

But I had John Sanford who, you know, he was our scoutmaster and when my dad was gone, he was that guy. And so the first thing I did when I became the pastor of church is set up a Boy scout troop, troop 7 11. And Scott nave is a Scout master and he was instrumental in the formation of my boy's life. And so, you know, you seek out those areas where you can have that transition into manhood. Yes, but we're losing all those. Football's being taken away.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's right.

[Rob McCoy]

Anything that's a transition to manhood, whether it's boy scouts, football, etc. They're deconstructing all of that intentionally.

[Charlie Kirk]

Intentionally. And for men, they need. They need physiological encounters more so than women. They need recess, they need sports, and they need outdoor activities in the woods, in the wilderness. They need to wrestle, they need to do these sorts of things.

[Podcast Announcer]

Competition is critical, and we have removed

[Charlie Kirk]

all of that, all of it. And it's. It's an incredible disaster. So, you know, young men message me a lot. They're 16, 17, 18. They say, Charlie, I have, you know, I'm struggling with problems with mental health and all these sorts of things. And I. And my message to them and to parents is. And I deal with a lot of these. My message to the young man is different than the message to the young parent. And I want to be clear. Young women have many problems as well, but they're completely different. They're about social acceptance, they're about ridicule, about social media, bullying, that sort of stuff. Not that men don't experience that, but it's completely different problems, and we need to differentiate those. For young men, the biggest problem they have when they're 16 or 17 is they've not been challenged and they have not been put into a place where they're pushed into the unknown to find out who they really are and what they can do. That's what the Boy Scouts used to do. Yeah. When I was a Boy Scout becoming an Eagle Scout, they put you in to get your Wilderness Survival merit badge. You had to go out into the woods and survive the night, start a fire, pitch a tent, make a meal.

[Rob McCoy]

Actually, you wouldn't even have tent. You'd have to build.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's correct. To get the merit badge, you have to build it out of. You have to build a. What's the right word? A fort, a fortress, whatever. But that. That's not an insignificant exercise. There's a reason why so many U.S. presidents were Eagle Scouts and U.S. senators and astronauts, and now the Boy Scouts is a complete and total moral failure for a lot of different reasons. But. So we. There's a crisis of masculinity. But for young men listening out there say, charlie, how do I get my life together? I've said this before, I'm going to say it again. And I got a beautiful note the other day where someone said, charlie, this Helped save my life. So.

[Rob McCoy]

Amen.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's amazing. And it's biblical.

[Rob McCoy]

I saw what you do with a young man.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, and again, it's not me. I'm just a communicator.

[Rob McCoy]

I understand.

[Charlie Kirk]

We're all just communicators of this ancient

[Rob McCoy]

wisdom where one beggar showing another beggar where the food is.

[Charlie Kirk]

Amen. And I just happened to be lucky enough to find it, and I want to share it, which is you take out a piece of paper, if you're listening to this and you're like, man, I just. My life screwed up right now. I just feel bad. I'm just not doing things right.

[Podcast Announcer]

Here are.

[Charlie Kirk]

Here's one suggestion and one task. The task first, it's called Maps for Meaning. And Jordan Peterson turned me onto this. It's phenomenal. You take a paper front and back and you write specifically where you want your life to be five years from now. You want what you're driving, where you're living, what you're doing, how you feel, what you're seeing, what you're experiencing. And then you have that kind of true north. You have to understand that we as human beings are aiming creatures. You know this. You hit it.

[Podcast Announcer]

What you're aiming.

[Charlie Kirk]

You hit what you aim at for

[Rob McCoy]

lack of a vision, the people perish.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that biblical? Yep. There you go.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that's exactly right. When there's no vision, you will be in a state of chaos. And so you have to get your aim right. You have to. Most people, young people in particular, have no aim at all whatsoever because they've been told by people around them that it's a waste of time, you'll never achieve it. Or been told by the society at large that everything is broken. What's the case? And it's almost again, it's this nihilism that has seeped into every facet. Then here's a suggestion. You can actually multiply your life by subtracting your life. I got an amazing. Another email on the podcast here. And you guys can always email me freedom charliekirk.com I want to help anyone right now that's dealing with this. I want to help you wrestle through this.

[Rob McCoy]

And anyone doubting that I have watched. You are amazing when it comes to email. You respond to every email I'm looking going, charlie, how do you do this? Where do you find the time? But you're very.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not every email, but every email I got on my podcast, I read, and most of which I respond to.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, and you've copied me on a Couple that have pertained to me as well. And I just. I'm amazed. Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

One of the reasons why Shepherd's Heart.

[Podcast Announcer]

Well, I don't know about that.

[Rob McCoy]

I do.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm make it more technical. One of the reasons why this podcast has grown so amazingly is I have the combined wisdom of all my listeners.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that people are sending me ideas all the time. Like, let's do a podcast on that. Let's do a podcast. This is a great idea.

[Rob McCoy]

And your guests.

[Charlie Kirk]

And my guests.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

So it's not me.

[Podcast Announcer]

I just work here.

[Charlie Kirk]

So. But you can multiply by subtraction. So this young man emailed me, said, charlie, you challenged me in one sentence. That changed my last couple months. You said, what if you went one month with no drinking, no drugs, no bad food, you exercised every day? And he said, I did it, and I feel like such a better person and I have my life sorted out now. I did your maps for meaning. It's incredible. Email. And I just kind of said it flippantly, Rob. And someone applied that to their life, and it brings me great joy. But I mean that. Which is that instead of indulging yourself, challenge yourself. You'll find a lot more in life. The greatest joys and the breakthroughs are actually what happens when you make a tough, tough goal, a tough aim. You challenge and you actually. You don't.

[Podcast Announcer]

Deprave.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's not the right word. But you forego the instant gratification for something that can happen next.

[Rob McCoy]

You apply restraint in order to pursue excellence.

[Charlie Kirk]

Isn't there a. Yeah, that's the plaque

[Rob McCoy]

that I refer to in the stairwell.

[Charlie Kirk]

They're going to remove it any day now.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, I keep referring to it.

[Charlie Kirk]

We're talking about it too much. Yeah. So one final thought on this, and I'd love to ask you about relationships really quick, which is that I think we overcomplicate some of this stuff through self help books and through all these big seminars and all this. It's Jordan's 12 Rules for Life Are Amazing. And he wrote it like a psychological journal. Right. If you just look at the 12 rules and just kind of get an essence of it. I actually like Jordan's lectures better than his writings. I think he's a better lecturer than a writer. And I know him as a friend.

[Rob McCoy]

He got a little evolutionary in the book itself.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. And if you don't subscribe to Darwinianism, then it kind of has some contradiction.

[Rob McCoy]

It's like eating a whole chicken. You eat the meat and spit out the bone.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And look, there are some Christian Darwinists, and I don't really weigh into that, to be honest with you, but some

[Podcast Announcer]

people believe in that.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I think he's trying to justify everything there with good reason and logic. And I take some exception with part of it. I will say this, though, that for every young person out there, think to yourself, am I doing something right now that I know that's bad for me, that if I stop doing it, my life would be better? And the answer is yes, then stop doing it. I know that's a really simple equation, but most. And this is why the ethic of Christ is so amazing.

[Podcast Announcer]

Freedom from sin.

[Charlie Kirk]

The secular culture says sin makes you free. Right. That's what our whole culture is. Right.

[Rob McCoy]

Indulge yourself.

[Charlie Kirk]

Whereas in Christ, it's actually the sacrifice of that sin where you get to true liberty. Whoa. That's a concept that no other religion ever can conjecture.

[Rob McCoy]

And the Lord will be in you to give you the strength to do that. Total gift.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, nothing else.

[Rob McCoy]

Nothing.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. So let me ask you, Rob. I have a lot of young people that also message me about relationships. Difficulty with relationships, people having trouble finding partners, maintaining partners, being in intimate relationships. You have a whole talk on this. In fact, you've been doing this for years. Yeah.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah. Well, you know, God creates man. He said, let us make man in our image. And the word uses Elohim, which is singular plurality or unified diversity. So the Godhead is relational. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And when he says, let us make man in our image, he makes us relational. He creates man, creates woman. And the only thing in the Garden of Eden that wasn't good. After all the creation was, it's not good that man should be alone. And so God created marriage to resolve the aloneness of man. He didn't do it for procreation, because you can procreate outside of marriage. But the aloneness, this intimacy, is something everyone's searching for.

[Charlie Kirk]

So some people don't make the argument that marriage is for children. And your argument would be. It's actually a lot deeper than that.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, it is deeper than that. It's to resolve the aloneness of man, that we are relational. And it's not good that man should be alone. That's what God said. It was the only thing in the Garden of Eden that wasn't good. It's not good that man should be alone. And like I said, you can procreate outside of marriage. We've proven it, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. In fact, actually, there's more babies out of wedlock. Than within marriage.

[Rob McCoy]

So to resolve the aloneness of man, God set it up. And it's fascinating. He creates this estate of marriage. I hate I use that word, institution or.

[Charlie Kirk]

And you corrected me.

[Rob McCoy]

Well, and it was rude of me, and I was tired that day, but

[Charlie Kirk]

it was a long year that week.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, that's a great line.

[Charlie Kirk]

I was a little short. No, it's all good.

[Rob McCoy]

But I was thinking to myself, it is an estate. It's beautiful. And this estate of marriage, it's the greatest intimacy man can have. This side of heaven, where a man and a woman have intimacy. And the Bible says in Genesis, they were naked and unashamed. And the idea is that there's complete intimacy, complete clarity, that there's no hidden secrets. They're completely revealed to one another. And so when you look at that, and then you see the fall of man, marriage is the only estate that survived the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. So marriage is still intact. And the way it is, it's a microcosmic picture of Christ's love for the Church. He's the groom, the church is the bride. And if you look at a Western wedding, it's fascinating, A Western wedding. The woman comes down in white, washed in the blood of the Lamb, white as snow. The groom, which is Christ, comes out in his burial outfit, which is the tuxedo. No, serious. This is a Western theme. Comes out in his burial outfit. And it's his death that has cleansed us of all unrighteousness. His death, burial, resurrection. And they're united, and the two become one. And this is a picture of Christ's love for the church. He laid his life down. So when you go through Ephesians 5, 6, it gives the outline of the family. It says, submitting to one another. Submitting to one another in the fear of the Lord. Wives, submit to your husbands as unto the Lord. Children, obey your parents. It'll go well with you. You'll live long on the earth. And husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. So you see this big umbrella of God, and then immediately under that is the husband, then the wife, then the children. It doesn't mean that they're not equal. It just means they have different roles. And if you look at it, of the four, God, husband, wife, children, what's the weakest physically and mentally of the four? It's obviously the child who has the most levels of protection. The child physically, between a male and a female. Of course, there's always exceptions, but physically, who's the weakest between the male and the female. It's going to be the female. She has the next most levels of protection, then the husband. Now, if the husband pulls out from under the umbrella of God, the wife can raise the children with the Lord. And they're single parents that have done that and done it. Well, it's not ideal, but it works. And maybe a wife pulls out and there's the husband and the children. It still works. It's not ideal, but it works. But the optimal is what God designed. And so with that, how do you have intimacy? How is marriage established? The Bible says a man will leave his mother and father be cleave to his wife, the two shall become one flesh. And the Bible says a man who lays down his life will then find it. And so marriage is really a sacrifice. It's laying down your life. And you look at that and you think, okay, how does that work? Well, as Christ loved the church, he laid his life down. Husbands do the same. Love your wife as Christ loved the church. Lay your life down. And so in doing this, the picture is he initiates, the wife responds. This is a picture of Christ's love for the church. And then you talk about intimacy. Sex is an expression of intimacy, both physical, emotional, and spiritual. You connect on all three levels and you're intimate. And how that works is the Greeks. We talk about the most misunderstood word in the English language, and you can use it in two sentences, and it means something totally different. I love my brother and I love my wife. Well, I love my brother. I got a great brother, wonderful brother. But I don't love him like I love my wife. You know what I'm saying? So it's the same word, two different meanings, and we only have one word in English for love. The Greeks had many words, three in particular, that constitute more than 90% of the meaning itself. And you find those three words in the scriptures. There's Eros, which is. The idea of Eros is that it's. It's selfish and it's only intended for objects. For example, I love this shirt because it makes me look skinny. And you're going, well, no, it doesn't. But you love it because of how it makes you feel. And you're selfish. It's all about you. And that's where we get the word erotic.

[Charlie Kirk]

I was going to say, yeah, that's the.

[Rob McCoy]

And the word erotic. The idea is you take the pinnacle of God's creation, which is man, and reduce them to an object for your pleasure. And that's where pornography comes from. You know much of the pornographic industry is driven by drug addiction in many respects. And you see, if a guy's walking on campus and he sees a girl coming across, he's never spoken a word to her day in his life, doesn't realize that her parents are going through a divorce or her brother's dying of cancer. He doesn't care. She's an object for his pleasure. She's eye candy. I'd like to get some of that. And growls or something. But he has no clue about her world. That's an object for his pleasure. So humans can love other human beings with arrows, but they have to do one thing. Reduce their intrinsic value as a pinnacle of God's creation to that of an object. And every object can be purchased for a price. If I take you to dinner, we sleep with me. And that just. That devalues humanity. Now, it's attractive because you're drawn to somebody with your eyes and you look at them and it does something to you. But that doesn't sustain intimacy. And what happens is we immediately go to the Eros and we lose the building block of intimacy. You get to know someone first. You spend time investing in their life, both emotionally and spiritually, and come to understand them so that when the trials of life come, you're not just connected by an animalistic connection of a physical realm. And now you can share through life's burdens and joys. So the next level of love in the Greek is called agape. Agape, which is where you find in the scriptures, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son for God, so agaped the world. Agape is a selfless love, and it's only intended for human beings, not for objects. It's the love that a mother has for her child, whereas Eros would be the love that a newborn baby has for the mother. And you go, wait a minute. If it's only for objects, how can a baby love the mother? The mother's not an object. The baby doesn't look at the mother as a human being. The mother is the milk wagon. Hook me up, it's two o' clock in the morning. I'll scream until I get what I want. So it's still an object. Love and Eros. But when you get to agape, the mother loves the baby selflessly. It's two in the morning, she's given birth to that child. She hurts in places she didn't know she had, and she gets up and loves on. That baby cleans, you know, a Child that age, we've had four of them. They make a noise on either end. It results in a mess. And it's never at a convenient time. And the mother is loving on that child. And that is agape love. Selfless. When I was a young boy, I'd be driving with my mom in the car, a Volkswagen Bug. And a car would cut in front of us. And that was before we had seat belts. And she'd put her hand and get in front of me. And what she was communicating to me without words is, I'm gonna put myself between you and danger because I love you more than I love myself. It's a selfless love. Greater love has no man than this. And to lay down his life for a friend, that's agape. And then the third type of love, agape is the highest form of love a human being can give. But the highest form of love a human being can experience is called phileo. It's misunderstood as brotherly love. Because we get the city of Philadelphia, city of brotherly love. It's deeper than that, because if you look at the discourse in John 21 with Peter, when he's restoring him, he interchanges agape with phileo. And what he's saying is, phileo is a mutual love, having the same love, being of like mind. Let the mind that was in Christ Jesus be in you. So phileo is achieved by agape, laying your life down. The husband initiates, the wife responding, laying her life down like we did when we came to Christ, and the two become one flesh. We have a like mind. We operate together in intimacy. And this is phileo. This is A plus A equals phileo. That's the idea. I can give you two illustrations. I know limited on time. I'll wrap it up with two illustrations if you want. Is that good? All right. When I was young and crazy, I was dating a girl, and she came to me and she said she was pregnant. And I set up an appointment at the abortion clinic because at that point I wouldn't believe her. And that child was an inconvenience. And I want to get rid of that kid because, listen, her father, big guy, he'd kill me. And when he was done killing me, my dad would resurrect me and he'd kill me. And I didn't want anyone to know. So, you know, I had money for my paycheck, money I'd had saved, set up the appointment, abortion clinic. And that week she said, I had my period and I'm not pregnant. And of course, that Relationship ended. And fast forward. Michelle and I, newly married. She's pregnant, and we go to the doctor's office for the trimester checkup. Dr. Theresa A. Vance. Amazing doctor. I'm holding my wife's hand. She's working the ultrasound device. We've got a name picked out for a boy and name picked out for a girl. And she's working the device, and we're excited to find out. And Dr. Avance looks over at me and looks over at Michelle and looks down at Michelle, and there's tears in her eyes, and they welled up. And when she looks down, the tears start to fall, and she says, rob, Michelle, I'm sorry, but your baby's died. I'd never been through anything like that my whole life. Michelle, you know, she was crying. She squeezed my hand so tight, you know, just. And she went in for a D and C. A dilate and cuterage is what they call it. Same procedure as an abortion, but in this case, our baby was already dead. And during the procedure, something happened where she began to hemorrhage horribly, and she almost died. And they wheeled her out, and I remember passing by me as they were rushing her to the emergency room. And her face was so ashy and gray that you couldn't tell where her face ended and her lips began and her eyes were rolled back in her head and they rushed past. And I remember just collapsing in the seat in the waiting room. And I just remember saying, God, please don't let her die. And for the first time in my life, I realized I love somebody more than I love myself. And when they finally stabilize her and they let me come in the room, this is like over 30 years ago. Walked into the room, and there tubes were running in and out of her body. Her hair was thrashed, her lips were cracked from dehydration. I grabbed her hand, it was cold, and she was out. And I just said, you know, don't die. I don't want to go through life without you. And she recovered. Our baby died. My wife lived. And at that moment, God spoke to my heart. And he said, rob, what's the difference? Not an audible voice, but it was very clear to me. What's the difference? I said, God, what do you mean, what's the difference? He said, what's the difference between the child you want to get rid of and the one that you're weeping over? And I said, well, Lord, this one was all about me, and I want to get rid of that baby to protect myself from the girl's dad. But this child wasn't about me. I'd give my life away. And as painful as this day was, when I lost my baby and I almost lost my wife, I wouldn't give up one day of this for a thousand of these. Because that day, I never felt more loved and more human in all my life. Love is what can I give. Sex is what can I get. Intimacy comes when you lay your life down. You serve another human being. And I'll leave you with this last thought. Four most intense drives of a male adolescent. They say a male has. Male adolescent has a sexual thought every 15 to 18 seconds. Like, I got to go to history class. Oh, you know, so you got air. Three minutes without air. Water. Three days without water.

[Charlie Kirk]

Food.

[Rob McCoy]

40 days without food. Fourth most intense drive, male adolescent sex drive. And I remember saying this in a public school. And the kid goes, wait a minute. Why would God make me this way? Make my fourth most intense drive as a male, my sex drive, and then say, wait until marriage. And at the time he asked me, all the girls are giggling. He goes, don't you test drive a car before you buy it? And the girls are laughing. And he had me baffled. He goes, is God cruel or something? And I thought, yeah, he kind of is. But then all of a sudden, the Bible says, if you lack wisdom and ask God.

[Charlie Kirk]

James 1:5.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah. And I looked at him, I said, tell me about your dad. You got a good dad? He goes, no, he's a jerk. Divorced my mom. I said, okay. And I told him about a guy named Jeff that I'd worked with, who his first time he ever kissed a woman, was on the altar and very first sexual experience after, you know, their honeymoon night. Good dad, you know, 50 hour work week. Serves the kid, serves his wife. And I said, wouldn't you like to have had a dad like Jeff? And don't you wish your mom would have had a husband like Jeff? And he goes, yeah. I said, the reason why God takes the fourth most intense drive. He can't do without air, he can't do without water, he can't do without food. But he takes that drive to teach you how to serve, to lay your life down so when the day comes, you know how to serve a family and care for them. And he got it. And this was a secular kid in a secular school that understood that principle. God's not cruel. He's in the business of making men. Men are providers and protectors. And if you want intimacy, you got to learn how to be a provider and a protector and Lay your life down and serve other human beings.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's awesome. Well, Rob, we'll have to keep this conversation going.

[Rob McCoy]

You bless me, Charlie. And this is a generation that is blessed to have you as a voice. Autodidactic. I say that a lot. But, Charlie, keep it up, because there are a lot of people out there, young people, who, they've been misled and they're longing for a way out. And God's used you as that voice, and I just pray God continues to do that. So bless you, man.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you. And everyone can email us freedomarliekirk.com if you want to email Rob. And last, last thing I'll say is if you're going through something, talk, talk, talk, talk through it, talk to somebody, write it out. Dialogue matters.

[Rob McCoy]

I'm not as good at you, Charlie, with email, but I'm robodspeak.com, i'll do my best to respond in Instagram. I'm better. Robmcoy.

[Charlie Kirk]

There you go. Let's get him a bunch of followers, everybody.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, well, whatever. But anyway, I can help.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks, Rob. Thanks, everybody. See you soon.

[Podcast Announcer]

Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. I really encourage you guys to get

[Charlie Kirk]

involved with Turning Point USA.

[Podcast Announcer]

Go to tpusa.com right now tpusa.com if you are a student and you want to get involved on Campus, go to tpusa.com to get involved in the fight for free enterprise, for American exceptionalism, for a strong country, for freedom of [e-mail] tpusa.com if you feel like you're losing your country and you want to do something about it, maybe chip in some money, a great place to do that [e-mail] also check out our professor watch list at professor watchlist.org find out who's teaching your children. Find out who's teaching your children ideas that are trying to destroy our country. We unmask radicals and advance freedom. @professorwatchlist.org for example, we just added a new professor, John Chaney Lippold at the University of Michigan. John Chaney Lippold is an associate professor at University of Michigan whose work focuses

[Charlie Kirk]

on Internet studies, cultural studies, and algorithm studies.

[Podcast Announcer]

Liphold made headlines for his blatant discrimination

[Charlie Kirk]

against pro Israel students at Michigan.

[Podcast Announcer]

After agreeing to the initial request, he refused to write a letter of recommendation for a student that wanted to study abroad in Israel due to his adherence

[Charlie Kirk]

to the BDS movement.

[Podcast Announcer]

He said, as you may know, many university departments have pledged an academic boycott against Israel in support of Palestinians living in Palestine made up. This boycott includes writing letters, recommendations for

[Charlie Kirk]

students who study there.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is John Chaney Leopold at University of Michigan who refuses to write a letter of recommendation for a student if that student wants to study in the Holy Land, the state of Israel. You guys can find out those stories and so much more. Professorwatchlist.org, book brought to you by Turning Point USA tpusa.com At Turning Point USA, we are on over 2,000 high school and college campuses across the country building the base of support for young people, educating, identifying, empowering and organizing the next generation around the values of free enterprise, American exceptionalism, and a better tomorrow for our generation. Email us your questions as always@freedom charliekirk.com, if you guys want to win a signed copy of the New York Times bestseller the Maga Doctrine, type in Charlie Kirk show to your podcast provider, hit that subscribe button, give us a five star review, screenshot it, and email us freedomarliekirk.com freedom charliekirk.com if you do that, you guys will be in the running to win a signed copy of the Maga Doctrine. Again, thank you guys so much for supporting [e-mail] support. Thank you guys so much.

[Charlie Kirk]

God bless you.

[Podcast Announcer]

Big episodes coming up tomorrow, that's all I can say. So make sure you're subscribed. Make sure you guys are refreshing your episode queue very early on Monday morning. Thanks so much.

[Charlie Kirk]

God bless.