B (3:18)

So you worked with investigators through the Justice Department, but they still forged evidence against you. What do you mean by that?

A (3:27)

Well, there's a lot that keeps coming out. Several top members of Congress and members of the justice department, including the U.S. department of Justice Inspector General, have uncovered a lot of evidence that much of this information which was being sent in by the Democrat operatives was then used to totally mis portray me. I have served my country in various capacities throughout most of my life. I'm a Naval Academy graduate. And after serving in the military, I helped the US Intelligence community in various capacities, both the CIA and FBI. And I never used to like to talk about that, but unfortunately, through various leaks and through various disinformation campaigns, it ended up coming out as part of the DOJ report. And now it's pretty well established that significant abuses of power have been committed. Various, a lot of crimes and so many elements to it. And again, I understand, and as a lot of investigators have been figuring out, both in Congress and in the doj, as well as a small handful of investigative reporters, there were a lot of people involved in this. And although there's been a initial guilty plea in this ongoing investigation, so much more still needs to be uncovered. And that's part of the goal of my book, is to help to provide more of a full picture as to what exactly happened in this terrible scheme.

B (5:08)

So you served our country in the United States Navy. Then you had a company that you did consulting for oil and gas across the world. Some say that you were a CIA asset. Is that true? Are you able to disclose that aspect of it?

A (5:26)

Well, I never wanted to disclose it previously, but it's now been disclosed by the US Department of Justice. Back last December, December 2019, they put out a big 480 page report which discussed these terrible abuses which were started during the Obama Biden administration in conjunction with various operatives in the Democrat Party. And in that there was a disclosure that I was an asset for US Intelligence both in terms of the CIA as well as the FBI. And again, some things are pretty blurry, but it's now well recognized.

B (6:07)

But that's what's so confusing to me, Carter. How are you an asset and then they turn you into a target? How does that. I mean, again, I'm just kind of looking at this from just a normal person's perspective. How is that possible?

A (6:20)

Well, it just is a reflection of how. And this goes back to what I was saying about how so many things are completely misportrayed by the Democrat Party, I think, as we've similarly seen with President Trump over the last several days with this infamous report from the Atlantic, giving all kinds of accusations which are entirely the opposite of the truth. That's basically the same exact thing they did to me, only focusing more on my intelligence service.

B (6:54)

So you were part of something that I call destination journalism. You're not part of it, you were the victim of it. Where these people have a narrative that they found in the rumor mill, and they try to find something even remotely in the ether that might confirm that narrative so that they can go find power. And that narrative was something around Russia. Right. So they wanted more than anything else to confirm, but they weren't able to, that Donald Trump is somehow a proxy of the Kremlin and of the Russian government. And then it actually resulted in a FISA warrant being signed, which again, for those of us that are not in this every single day, and I'm pretty aware of this stuff, I still don't. I'm losing faith in our system if this is really allowed to happen. I mean, can you walk us through exactly some of the specifics of how our government was allowed to spy on an incoming president, yourself and others on just complete, total piles of garbage and nonsense?

A (7:54)

Well, there's a lot to unpack there, Charlie. And essentially the Democrat Party had a multimillion dollar operation trying to hiring actually themselves hiring foreign agents and having a network of spies working for the Democrat Party in Russia, of all places, to concoct totally false information. And so there's a lot of elements to it where first they tried the more respected news outlets, Wall Street. So they make up these false allegations against me as a way of smearing then candidate Trump. And so they tried the Wall street, pitching this story to the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, cnn. And they all refused initially, although they caught on to the story later. Finally, they found someone at Yahoo News just a couple of months, less than two months before the last election, and they accepted it. And the following month, James Comey and one of the DNC speakers a couple weeks ago, Sally Yates signed off on a false foreign intelligence surveillance court warrant application, which they used and they and their operatives used to deceive this once respected court. So you're absolutely right in terms of the lack of faith and there is so much more that needs to be done in terms of restoring that faith now that this has been uncovered. But it's a step by step process and I think it's essential that it gets resolved prior to the upcoming election.

B (9:49)

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A (10:55)

Well, it has been happening. And unfortunately just this past week there's been so many court actions starting to resolve this process in the wake of this blockbuster Inspector General report last December. But just last week there was a big case in the 9th Circuit, not exactly the most Trump friendly jurisdiction out west. And they came to the conclusion that some of these spying powers used by the US Government were in fact illegal. And that is actually I was part of one particular program which again, through complete lies pumped out by the Democrats, they were able to convince the court. However, there are a lot of other very strong powers where the government can essentially infiltrate all aspects of your life. In terms of the extraordinary surveillance power, the government, several laws were passed in the 1970s after serious abuses were found during the J. Edgar Hoover FBI, including spying on various political operatives, including Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And this new law was created to try to make the system more robust. And unfortunately, with these terrible abuses that have been uncovered by the Department of Justice and by members of Congress, we now know that the abuses this time around were infinitely worse. And it goes very far in terms of its reach. The other main difference is the level of technology. So back in the 1960s, when Dr. Martin Luther King was getting spied on by the FBI, they just used more basic technologies. But now with your iPhone and all the technologies that are available, the government's reach, if abused, is so much deeper. And I think we have a real civil rights leader in our president who's been speaking out, trying to get some reforms related to this.

B (13:08)

Well, here's what's been amazing, Chris Carter, is that the Democrats used to care about this stuff. The Democrats used to actually talk a good game on civil liberties, and now they're the ones that are more than happy to use the levers of power if they don't like an election outcome. And yet. So have you found any sort of. Have you found any allies in the Democrat establishment or anyone that thinks what happened to you is wrong? I mean, where's the ACLU on this? Where are these interest groups that should be really concerned that an innocent American was framed and spied on?

A (13:40)

Yeah, well, there's a lot of dimensions to that. Unfortunately, it's even worse than the way you describe it, because so many operatives, again, the Democrats are the ones that made up this completely false story and this multimillion dollar defamatory scheme. Unfortunately, when that big inspector general report came out in December, Chairman Lindsey Graham of the Senate Judiciary Committee ended up calling a hearing. And there were a lot of people quite outraged during that hearing. Unfortunately, one of the members, just to give you an example, was Senator Kamala Harris. And instead of addressing these issues, she touched on it very briefly. She instead directed all of her anger and all of her focus on Attorney General Barr, someone who's actually been trying to take some initial steps to restore our justice system. But again, as from since the very beginning in our last presidential election cycle, they have just used this false narrative to constantly just attack their political enemies, which is precisely the opposite of the way this system was designed in terms of protecting US Civil liberties.

B (14:59)

Can you talk about how the media has been in collusion with the Democrat Party and also the government apparatus here, that you would show up for a Senate Intelligence Committee or something, and all of a sudden there'd be a reporter there waiting for you? I'M paraphrasing the incident. Can you walk us through that?

A (15:14)

Yeah, well, that's. It really is. I mean, there are different. There's good and bad people in any organization. And unfortunately, the Senate Intelligence Committee, which, again, during these reforms in the 1970s, was put together as a way of looking out for both national security on the one side, but also civil liberties and making sure these terrible abuses don't happen. Unfortunately, as you're correctly alluding to the quote, unquote, security Director of the Senate Intelligence Committee, this gentleman had a girlfriend who worked for none other than BuzzFeed. And so he was feeding her a lot of damaging and frankly speaking, very dangerous information about me. So one leak eventually came out In April of 2017, early in the Trump administration. And this girlfriend of the then security director of the Senate Intel Committee then tells me, I have this breaking news report coming out. And sure enough, she's on the Rachel Maddow show the same evening telling these stories, which are a complete misrepresentation of the truth. And unfortunately, and as I discussed with the FBI the month prior, all these false stories led to a ton of death threats. So right after that Rachel Maddow interview on msnbc, I ended up getting additional calls and death threats from one of the same perpetrators. And again, it was. There are so many elements to this, and unfortunately, in terms of the FBI and the US Intelligence community, they have a number of important roles in terms of, like the term implies, intelligence, having insights, but they also have a national security role. And when they're, instead of enhancing national security, they're actually putting American lives at risk by being part of this Democrat scheme to take down our duly elected president. It just is. It's hard to overstate how terrible and how dangerous this is on so many levels for our country.

B (17:43)

So you then endured years of government persecution under the guise of investigation, and then you're finally vindicated. Here's my question, though. I mean, despite what is Kevin Kleinsmith, is that. Is his name. One guilty plea, he'll probably get community service and write a book about how he was unfairly targeted. He'll actually end up on top, probably. That's how it works on the Democrat side, is they'll give a wink and a nod, you know, just plead guilty, we'll take care of you. Are we gonna see real indictments here, Carter? Because I'm growing very impatient. We're now in September, I was told that Durham is not gonna do anything before the election. Is that true? I mean, I don't know if you have any inside, you know, thoughts here and I wouldn't want you to compromise any sort of confidentiality. But what's going on here? Why is no one going to jail for what happened to you?

A (18:32)

Well, these are big open questions. And just to be clear, it's not only just what happened to me, this was entirely a scheme to totally interfere in President Trump's then candidate, Trump's first ever election in his life and create so much damage through his transition and throughout his administration. But unfortunately, there really has not been full justice restored as part of this process. You're absolutely right. This was one small step. There are some hints that perhaps there will be additional repercussions for so many perpetrators. Unfortunately, it remains an open issue and I think there's a lot also that the Senate and other members of Congress can do to help keep the pressure on in terms of disclosing some of this information. Unfortunately, a number of operators within the US justice system, both DOJ and the FBI, have been doing an incredible amount of work to try to cover this up as much as possible because it is, I mean it is a terrible black eye on the Obama, Biden administration and the entire Democrat Party which continues to rake in hundreds of millions of dollars.

B (19:58)

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A (21:29)

Well, we know there was a meeting just two weeks before the inauguration in the Oval Office with then President Obama, then Vice President Joe Biden, Susan Rice, who was a national security advisor at the time, as well as those same two people I mentioned who signed off on the false FISA warrants. Right. Within a week of that in January of 2017 and also in the pre election interference campaign with these, with these false court documents. So Joe Biden, Obama, Susan Rice, Yates and Comey are all having these meetings or had this one meeting on January 5, 2, 2017. And there's like I was just saying there's a lot of big questions. I know Chairman Chuck Grassley and Chairman Lindsey Graham have highlighted this and have been trying to get some information as to these questionable steps that were taken during that meeting. And unfortunately there hasn't been many answers. And I think part of it relates back to the fact that I have been, you know, as part of this whole process, subject to over 40 hours of interrogation by both the Congress and DOJ and the Mueller witch hunt as well as the FBI. And unfortunately, most of these people who are involved in this illicit scheme have not really been forced to answer any questions, primarily big people on the top

B (23:04)

40 hours of interrogation. The legal fees must have been hundreds of thousands of dollars for you to defend yourself, is that right?

A (23:12)

Well, and I get into this a bit later in my book. I was fortunate that I decided because I knew it was going to completely wipe me out. Although I did have some legal help, I decided much of it I'm just going to do on my own. And I think it has been a incredible intellectual journey for me. When I was totally smashed in terms of my just as a junior unpaid volunteer on the Trump campaign, focusing on foreign policy and national security, I instead focused my intellectual energies on learning the law. And I think that has been most incredible part of that process, just watching and listening to that, you know, looking at what was done compared to what the law actually states. I mean, we are just really in a authoritarian type.

B (24:10)

So you represented yourself. That's unbelievable. I did not know that.

A (24:14)

Yeah, in many contexts, both in a civil. Some of my initial civil litigation I have some help now. But in my initial civil litigation, I Started it, but also all my appearances in front of Congress. So we were just talking about.

B (24:31)

That's a risk. I mean, you know, people will tell you not to do that.

A (24:35)

Yeah, no, and unfortunately, I mean, there are. And this kind of speaks more to the conflicts of interest in Washington with so many insiders.

B (24:46)

It's a great point. That's why everything changed for Michael Flynn as soon as he brought in Sidney Powell from outside the D.C. circuit and from Texas. And because he had a conflicted legal team.

A (24:57)

Well, to your point. So the firm that was representing him, one of the senior partners in that firm, is none other than Obama's six year Attorney General, Eric Holder. So he's from the same firm.

B (25:14)

And it used to be a couple decades ago, you could have a lawyer that would be able to represent either types of clients and you would be okay with that. Not anymore. Now it's team right, team left, and they don't care if you get an indictment. They just. They won't look out for you. So 40 hours of interrogation. You represented yourself. Are you suing the government for what happened to you?

A (25:35)

I have an initial case, so the same DOJ inspector general report. I have a case which I. Where I'm representing myself and I put in together a legal team. And I may have more to say about that before the election because so many of these crimes tie in. There are certain civil remedies related to this where there may be some possibility in terms of getting some form of justice here. But it's a long, ongoing uphill battle.

B (26:10)

Yeah, I mean, suing the government is not easy at all. It's expensive. It's hard. And you're up against, you know, unlimited budgets.

A (26:18)

Well, I mean, the only advantage I have is, I mean, this 480 page Inspector General report, really, although it was very incomplete, it doesn't give the full story. And again, that's part of the reason I wrote this book. But by the same token, there were a lot of errors and omissions in a Federal Court document. 17 errors and omissions. And now with this first guilty plea by Mr. Kleinsmith, you know, we'll have to wait and see how it goes. But there's.

B (26:51)

I hope there's more. I'm not optimistic. I am. I have lost faith. I think that this is. I think that people like Comey and Strzok are gonna get out on slaps on the wrist. I hope I'm wrong. I really do. But what happened to Donald Trump and you and everyone that was involved in the entire Mueller scam And that's what it was. It was a scam. It was a taxpayer funded tragedy on our country. So you're thinking of possibly having some civil remedies. Can you just reinforce just how badly the establishment wanted to take out Donald Trump and they were willing to sacrifice anyone throughout this. And walk us through. I mean, there were some really dark days for you and others where you thought that the truth was never going to get out. In fact, one of your chapters comes out with Chris Hayes, who's a real beauty, says, I generally hope, Carter, that you're innocent of everything because you're doing a lot of talking. It's either admirably bold or reckless. I guess we'll find out. Can you comment on that?

A (27:48)

Yeah, I think, you know, along the lines of what we were discussing about how there's so much, the implications for all Americans, I think what I experience going back to the first Trump campaign and throughout the early years of the Trump administration and to this day is something that all Americans have been observing over the time since. And along the lines of your question about the media, so much of the story, so much of the media narrative is just completely fabricated. And we see example after example of this. And even to this day, even though all of these false, most of the false stories have been completely, you know, shown to be as false as they are. We now, you know, they keep coming out with additional false stories about, you know, Russian bounties and how, you know, is there some deal between the president and Putin, et cetera. And they, with no basis whatsoever. Even though President Trump has tried to do so many steps to fix this, it just remains unresolved. And I think one of the biggest shames about all this is if you look back at the history of President Reagan, one of his biggest accomplishments was the end of the first Cold War, right? And that was based on him actually questioning the foreign policy establishment and deciding that we need to have a new approach in terms of Washington's relationship with Moscow. And that is exactly what President Trump first as a candidate and throughout his administration has tried to do. And unfortunately, these headwinds have just been huge challenges. But I think it's a tribute or it's characteristic of his strength and his determination that he still somehow keeps, keeps going forward and keeps fighting for the interests of all Americans in our country.

B (30:00)

Well, it's also, I just, I can't stand dishonesty. The president has actually been harder on Russia than any of his people, any men in the media will ever communicate. He's put more sanctions on Russia expelled diplomats, you know, help arm Ukrainian forces against Russia. So. And the entire impeachment showed that. However, that's just a, that's a different topic within it. Any other parts of the book we didn't touch on, Carter, that you want our audience to be aware of? I encourage all of our listeners and viewers. Abuse and Power by Carter Page. Are there other parts we didn't touch on that you want to make sure we hit on?

A (30:32)

Well, I think overall in the conclusion, it goes to your question about the implications for all Americans. Towards the end of my book, particularly in chapter nine, I talk about the important reforms that are urgently needed for our country right now. And I think, you know, the more people understand the full extent of this story, I mean, in many ways it's a spy thriller, but unfortunately much of it is just made up abuses by the, by the intelligence community as a way of colluding with the Democrat Party and manipulating the media in a severe propaganda disinformation campaign. So I think there's certainly a lot more we could get into, but I think there's.

B (31:22)

Well, and Carter, Adam Schiff is still pushing the Russia deal right now, isn't he? They're still pushing it, yeah.

A (31:29)

Yeah. And unfortunately, and again, it's what I'm saying about over the summer and the unrest that a lot of Democrat operatives have been doing in terms of not restoring the rule of law in Democrat run cities, et cetera. I think we see precisely the same thing and it's a serious warning sign in terms of our national security on a much bigger scale. Just given the stakes involved in our national security and our international relations programs.

B (32:05)

I agree. Well, Carter, you're American patriot. Please keep fighting. The book is Abuse in Power. Everyone go get a copy and continue to represent yourself. And we hope you're successful in holding these people accountable.

A (32:17)

Thank you so much. You do the same, Charlie. I know you're part of this related

B (32:21)

fight we're fighting every day. All right, Carter, thanks so much. Speak to you soon. Okay, thank you guys so much for listening. Please get involved with Turning Point USA. Go to tpusa.com, tpusa.com to get engaged, get involved in in the fight on high school and college campuses across the country. At tpusa.com, we are fighting for freedom, liberty and American exceptionalism on campuses across the country. Please email me your questions. As always@freedom charliekirk.com type in Charlie Kirk show to your podcast provider. Hit subscribe, give us a five star review and please consider supporting us@charliekirk.com support if you give a dollar and actually giving $2, it is force multiplied. Thank you guys so much for listening. God bless you. Talk to.