The BIG Hydroxychloroquine Lie, Hypnotized by Dr. Fauci, a Medical Deep State, AND MORE with Dr. Simone Gold

Summary

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The Charlie Kirk Show: "The BIG Hydroxychloroquine Lie, Hypnotized by Dr. Fauci, a Medical Deep State, AND MORE"

Guest: Dr. Simone Gold (Emergency Physician, Attorney, America's Frontline Doctors)
Date: July 22, 2020

Episode Overview

In this provocative episode, Charlie Kirk sits down with Dr. Simone Gold, a board-certified emergency physician and attorney, to dissect what she calls the “big lie” surrounding COVID-19—particularly focusing on the suppression of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) as an early treatment. Together, they challenge lockdown policies, mask mandates, media reporting, government oversight, and the rise of a "medical deep state." Dr. Gold alleges intentional misinformation designed to keep Americans in fear and undermine patient care.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Gold’s Background and Motivation

• Experience: Board-certified emergency physician (20+ years), also an attorney.
• Perspective: First-hand witness to patient care during COVID-19 and highly critical of official pandemic response.
  • “We really do have a medical issue, but we have a legal crisis.” (03:36)

2. COVID-19 Statistics and Reporting: “Almost Nothing That's Been Reported is True”

• Lethality Misrepresented:
  • “People are led to believe that this is a highly lethal disease. And it’s not.” (04:45)
  • “If you’re under age 60, without comorbid conditions, your odds of dying from influenza are higher than…COVID-19.” (05:18)
• Death Counting Issues: Inflated by co-morbidities and death certificate inaccuracies.
  • “There’s no doubt…that absolutely you’re writing COVID-19 on death certificates as a cause when it’s not accurate.” (12:28)

3. Case Numbers & Testing Paradoxes

• ‘Cases’ as a Misnomer:
  • “Cases are just positive test results…it doesn’t mean people are necessarily sick.” (07:08)
  • “People often get tested multiple times and those are counted as unique cases… the number is way more inflated.” (08:35)
• Testing Anecdotes:
  • “We have tons of people…saying that they signed up for tests, they didn’t take a test, then they got notified the test was positive.” (07:37)
  • “I know four people this happened to.” (07:44 – Charlie)

4. Nursing Home Policies: ‘A Scandal’ and ‘Absolute Homicide’

• Elderly Vulnerability:
  • “56% of all deaths nationwide have been nursing home related.” (10:34 – Charlie)
  • “In Pennsylvania…67% of patients who died…were assisted living or nursing home patients…I want to reiterate as a doctor…this is an absolute homicide, in my opinion.” (10:38)

5. Lockdowns: No Medical Justification

• Historical Context:
  • “There should not have been a lockdown in the first place, and there definitely should not be one now.” (11:15)
  • “100,000 people died during the Hong Kong flu [1968-69]…I didn’t see any headline that said Woodstock was canceled.” (12:17)

6. Masks & Civil Liberties: ‘Zero Scientific Justification’

• Mask Skepticism:
  • “Masks are really foolish. They don’t do anything…there’s zero scientific justification.” (17:06)
  • “The size of the virus and the size of the pores in the mask—about 200 to 1,000 times different.” (17:11)
  • “Hashtag social conditioning…the New England Journal…said masks don’t really work but maybe we should do them just to calm the fear.” (18:22)

7. Asymptomatic Transmission: ‘A Myth’

• Debunking the Super-Spreader:
  • “One of the biggest myths…has been the myth of the asymptomatic super spreader…There’s been lots of studies that have debunked this concept.” (15:19-16:06)

8. Suppression of Hydroxychloroquine: 'A Medical Deep State'

• Policy and Reprimands:
  • Dr. Gold was reprimanded for prescribing HCQ, despite observing “every single patient I prescribed hydroxychloroquine and zinc to…got better within hours.” (20:58)
  • “The medical director of the emergency department reprimanded me quite severely…told me my job would be on the line.” (20:44)
  • “Gavin Newsom [CA Governor] sends out a letter…saying you could be brought up on unprofessional conduct if you prescribe hydroxychloroquine.” (21:18)
• Estimated Impact:
  • “Between half and three-quarters of the patients who died would not have died…that’s 70,000 to 105,000 patients.” (22:21)
  • “If we would have had a sane hydroxychloroquine policy, we’d have anywhere between 70 to 105,000 more people still alive.” (23:01)

9. Media, Journals, and Pharmaceutical Influence

• Fraudulent Studies:
  • “The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine published really fraudulent studies and they actually got retracted… the company that provided the data is now scrubbed from the Internet.” (32:06, 33:04)
  • “The FDA still has their policy based on those retracted studies.” (33:26)
• Profit Motives:
  • “Hydroxychloroquine is a cheap drug with no profit potential. Remdesivir…weakly, mildly helpful…but the media didn’t jump on that.” (30:53)
• Western Policy vs. Developing Nations:
  • “Countries with a liberal hydroxychloroquine policy…have a mortality rate…that’s a fraction of what it is in first world countries like America, UK, France, and Belgium.” (44:26-44:55)
  • “In Iran, you can go and buy it [HCQ] over the counter.” (42:51)

10. Medical Cancel Culture & Loss of Scientific Integrity

• Suppression of Dissent:
  • “There’s a medical cancel culture that’s as aggressive as the rest of cancel culture.” (59:47)
  • “How did the Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, print fraud? How’s that possible?” (59:56)
• Groupthink in Medicine:
  • “Our hospital changed its policy…what changed from Monday to Tuesday? No science changed. It was just group think.” (37:45)

11. Children, Schools, Psychological Harm

• School Closures Damage:
  • “This is a disease that does not hurt children. And we’re talking about keeping schools closed…We know that keeping schools closed does hurt children. So that’s immoral.” (55:24)
• Long-Term Consequences:
  • “Masks…kids need to see people’s facial expressions to understand the world and learn emotions…That’s how they learn.” (59:06)

12. Fear, Liberty, and Societal Impact

• Fear as a Control Mechanism:
  • “We are entrapped as a society in a spider web of fear…It’s not the virus that’s destroying this country at all.” (46:59)
  • “We should not be living in fear. Absolutely not.” (58:49)
• Civil Liberties:
  • “When you’re living in a state of fear, you’re allowing your civil liberties to be trampled upon…you have to live with the consequences long after this has become a distant memory.” (58:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Covid Fatality Reporting (04:45):

  "There's almost nothing that's been reported that's true." — Dr. Simone Gold

• On Children and Risk (05:52):

  "The influenza is more lethal than COVID-19 for people under 60 without serious comorbid conditions." — Dr. Simone Gold

• On Mask Efficacy (17:06):

  "Masks are really foolish. They don’t do anything." — Dr. Simone Gold

• On Medical Suppression (20:44):

  "The medical director of the emergency department reprimanded me quite severely. Basically told me my job would be on the line." — Dr. Simone Gold

• On the Nursing Home Crisis (10:38):

  “This is an absolute homicide, in my opinion.” — Dr. Simone Gold

• On Hydroxychloroquine Suppression (22:21):

  "Between half and three quarters of the patients who died would not have died, which is 70,000 to 105,000 patients." — Dr. Simone Gold

• On Scientific Publishing (41:47):

  "When you look at the date they finish the study and the date that they publish the study, there’s like a six- or seven-week lag…which is actually remarkable because when it finally did come out, it was huge news. Even CNN covered it." — Dr. Simone Gold

• On Cancel Culture in Medicine (59:47):

  "There’s a medical cancel culture that’s as aggressive as the rest of cancel culture." — Dr. Simone Gold

• On the Scale of the “Lie” (55:24):

  "On a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of lies, we are at like 9.5. It's almost complete lies, what you're hearing, almost entirely." — Dr. Simone Gold

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Important Timestamps

• Dr. Gold’s background & motivation: [03:33]
• COVID-19 reporting distorted: [04:41–05:52]
• Testing & ‘case’ misrepresentation: [07:08–08:39]
• Inflated deaths & nursing home scandal: [09:16–10:38]
• Lockdown effectiveness questioned: [11:15–12:17]
• Masks & civil liberties: [16:57–18:22]
• Hydroxychloroquine suppression: [20:44–24:06]
• Potential lost lives due to HCQ policy: [22:21–23:13]
• FDA & fraudulent journal studies: [32:06–33:26]
• Medical groupthink and cancel culture: [37:45, 59:47]
• Fear and erosion of civil liberties: [46:59, 58:05]
• Morality and discrimination in medication access: [54:20–54:55]
• Children/schools & mask mandates: [55:24, 59:06]

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Flow & Tone

Throughout the episode, both Charlie Kirk and Dr. Gold maintain a tone of urgency and skepticism, blending data-driven arguments with passionate appeals to liberty and common sense. Dr. Gold positions herself as a non-political, patient-focused physician up against a politicized, profit-driven medical establishment. The language is direct and unfiltered, frequently invoking concepts like “civil liberties,” “cancel culture,” “medical deep state,” and “Orwellian” to highlight the perceived gravity of the current crisis.

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Summary Takeaways

• Dr. Gold claims most official COVID-19 data and policy—especially related to case reporting, mask mandates, and school closures—is misleading, overblown, or outright false.
• She argues the suppression of hydroxychloroquine, a safe and widely used drug internationally, has led to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths in the U.S., attributing this to corporate and governmental interests.
• The episode asserts the medical and scientific establishment has become politicized, with dissenting doctors facing professional and social reprisals.
• Dr. Gold calls for Americans to reject fear, demand accurate information, and resist the erosion of civil liberties under the pretext of public health.
• The hosts and guest agree that restoring honesty and patient-centered choice in medicine is critical to preserving both health and freedom.

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Transcript

[A]

Thank you for listening to this Podcast 1 production now available on Apple Podcasts, Podcast 1, Spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. What a special episode today with Dr. Simone Gold. She makes the argument that we're all being lied to. We talk about masks, we talk about hydroxychloroquine, we talk about Dr. Burke's, we talk about lockdowns. If you think you know what's going on with the Chinese coronavirus, think again. She makes a very compelling argument that we are being strategically and deliberately lied to by the ruling class and by the medical establishment that wants to keep us perpetually sick, not get us well, that wants to keep us in a state of fear. This is one of the most important episodes we have ever done on the Charlie Kirk Show. Listen carefully and circulate it amongst your friends. This is with an emergency physician, board certified doctor that tells you stuff that the mainstream medical establishment will never tell you. And she has all the facts right here. Please consider supporting our program so that we can have guests like Dr. Simone Gold on here to tell you the [e-mail] support that is charliekirk.com support and we have another episode coming up with her next week. So email me your questions about the virus and how we should react to it@freedom charliekirk.com, freedomarliekirk.com if you guys want to win a signed copy of the MAGA Doctrine, type in Charlie Kirk show to your podcast provider, hit subscribe, give us a five star review and screenshot it and email us. Your questions will be answered. You will be very convicted. Take action against those that have been deceiving and lying to us. Buckle up. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

[B]

Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are

[A]

lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy, spirit his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives. And we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. America's ready to get back to work. But to win in the new economy, you need every advantage to succeed. Smart companies. Run a netsuite by Oracle, the world's number one cloud business system. I put my name totally behind netsuite. It's terrific. With netsuite, you'll have visibility and control over your financials, hr, inventory, e commerce and more. Everything you need, all in one place. Whether you're doing a million or hundreds of millions in sales, NetSuite lets you manage every penny with precision. You have the agility to compete with anyone. Work from anywhere and run your whole company right from your phone. Join over 20,000 companies who trust NetSuite to make it happen. NetSuite surveyed hundreds of business leaders and assembled a playbook of the top strategies they're using as America reopens for business. Receive Your free guide 7 Actions Businesses need to take now and schedule your free product [e-mail] Kirk get your free guide and schedule your free product tour right [e-mail] Kirk netsuite.com Kirk hey everybody. Welcome to this special episode of the Charlie Kirk Show. I am joined by Dr. Simone Gold. You are an emergency physician. You are a board certified doctor. You're also an attorney. Welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And first, you have some opinions about the Chinese coronavirus. Let's first just kind of establish your credibility and your experience in medicine.

[B]

Hey, thank you so much, Charlie. I'm really happy to be here. Like you said, I'm a board certified emergency physician. I've been practicing for almost 20 years. And, and I am also an attorney. And I always say please don't hold that against me, but I do think it gives me kind of a unique perspective into what's going on right now. We really do have a medical issue, but we have a legal crisis. And I am motivated to speak out because I am on the front line seeing patients in the middle of this pandemic. And I've been very distressed at how we're handling this as a country on many levels.

[A]

So let's start there. There's been, I mean, I have been very outspoken against the lockdown measures. I believe there is more to the story than they are telling us, that the numbers that they are presenting to us are misleading at best. The statistics that they are using as far as cases and deaths are very questionable. And Dr. Birx has gone as far as to say that as you look at the landscape right now of the virus and the communications around the virus, what is the, what is, what are a couple things that you say that is not true that bothers you the most.

[B]

I'll flip that around in here and I'll say what is true.

[A]

Ok. Yeah.

[B]

There's almost nothing that's been reported that's true.

[A]

Go further.

[B]

Okay. So for Example, people are led to believe that this is a highly lethal disease. And it's not. People are talking about school closures, which is completely not supported by the science. There's actually no evidence that children transmit this to adults and very little that adults, when they transmit it to children, that the children get sick. Anybody can go to data.cdc.gov and they can check the age of the patients. The people who get Covid and who die for children is very, very low. It's almost zero. It's much riskier to have influenza as a child. Much riskier.

[A]

Much riskier to have the flu.

[B]

It's much riskier to have influenza if you're under age 24 and even under age 60, as long as you're healthy, than to have Covid. Now that sounds shocking to you. I can see the expression on your face. So let me say that again. If you're under age 60, without comorbid conditions, 66, 060, your odds of dying from influenza are higher than the odds of dying from COVID 19.

[A]

So let's just start there. Is that okay?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So you're trying to tell me that under the age of 60, with no let's say underlying, major, underlying health conditions, is that fair?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

The flu is more dangerous to you?

[B]

Correct. The influenza is more lethal then COVID 19 for people who are under 60 without serious comorbid conditions such as diabetes, coronary artery disease, obesity, et cetera.

[A]

So we're hearing all about new cases. New cases, new cases. And some people say, well, deaths are going up in certain states. Is that the whole picture?

[B]

So the word cases is a misnomer. What a case really is is a positive test result. So it's a little yes or no on a slip of paper.

[A]

This is not a normal way to judge viral infections, right?

[B]

Well, correct. It's not. When people are talking about cases really, from my perspective as a physician, what they're saying is that this human being presented themselves, they had a blood test or they had a nasal swab, and they had a yes result on that. It doesn't at all mean that they're necessarily sick. In fact, when you go back and look, it turns out lots and lots of people, in fact, the overwhelming majority were either asymptom or mildly symptomatic. So those are all being counted as cases. And there's other problems with quote, unquote, case reports, case numbers. But first of all, don't think in terms of cases as a coughing, febrile individual. Think of cases as a positive test result. On a slip of paper.

[A]

So they say cases are going up because we're doing more testing. Has there been any fraud or let's just say misleading indicators with testing, people getting results that they actually didn't get tested?

[B]

So I really want to emphasize that you should not look at total cases. You should look at mortality rates because the case rate has so many elements that are inaccurate to it. First of all, was this test done? We have tons of people all over the Internet saying that they signed up for tests, they didn't take a test, then they got notified that the test was positive.

[A]

I know four people this happened to. And an activist media member said I'm a liar and a conspiracy theorist. I know four people.

[B]

Oh no, I do as well. I do as well. And I know some doctors that happen to where they order the test for the patient. The patient didn't get the test because the line was long and they got a positive test result and the patient said, I never went for the test.

[A]

You know what's interesting? Testing. I've never heard of anyone get a negative test result for that.

[B]

Right. We've never had a negative test result

[A]

for that circus thing.

[B]

That's true. That's true. It's always a callback that it's a positive.

[A]

Oh yeah, the fake tests happen to be in the positive direction.

[B]

Yeah. But in addition to that, in addition to the case, some states are reporting cases that the people weren't tested. So for example, you might. Some states are reporting that if one person is positive but they live in a home with three or four other people or they're in a close environment with other people and they have any kind of symptoms such as cough or anything mild, they. They are also counted as positives. That's an error in the case report. There's another error in the case report which is people often get tested multiple times and those are counted as unique.

[A]

As unique cases, as unique cases. So the number is way more inflated

[B]

than it's very inflated. And I don't want anyone to think that this isn't a real disease. It is, but the case number is completely unreliable, irrelevant.

[A]

So the mortality rates are they say going up in certain states.

[B]

So I want to stress that we have to put everything into context. So viruses have pre existed humans, they will probably outlive humans. We coexist with viruses for centuries. So there is going to be a little ebb and flow with the mortality rate. But when you go to cdc.gov and you look at the numbers, the people who are.

[A]

I don't even know if I believe those numbers, but.

[B]

Right. And I'll tell you, from my direct experience as a physician and reading all the journals, the patients who are getting sick enough to die overwhelmingly have serious medical problems. Overwhelmingly. And I would be negligent if I didn't talk about the nursing home situation. Part of the reason I've gone public is because we're talking about schools, for example. But we had no problem, apparently the governors of certain states of letting old, sick, frail people die. This is a scandal.

[A]

Can you explain that more, though?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. So I would be watching the coronavirus task force, and there were certain governors of certain states, but back east who every day would talk about the issue, and he would actually say, we have to protect our most vulnerable. We have to protect our nursing home patients and our sick patients. And then one day, very shockingly, he made an executive decision to send nursing home patients who were known positive back to the nursing home. On top of that, he told the nursing homes, you couldn't even ask about their Covid status. So patients who were in the hospital for COVID 19 who survived then were sent back to the nursing home to then go with other nursing home patients, most of whom got sick and many, many who died. There's no question that the deaths in New York and other states like Pennsylvania were pushed to such high numbers due to these nursing home deaths. It's a crime, in my opinion. A crime.

[A]

And I think 56% of all deaths nationwide have been nursing home related.

[B]

Huge. So the number I always remember off the top of my head in Pennsylvania, the, the Secretary of health of Pennsylvania, Dr. Rachel Levine, something like 67% of the patients who died of COVID 19 in her state were assisted living or nursing home patients. And what's really egregious is she stood before her Pennsylvania legislative body and said it was safe. And then she took her mother out of her own assisted living facility. So her mother's protected, but not all the other patients. I want to reiterate as a doctor, a person who cares deeply for people, this is an absolute homicide, in my opinion.

[A]

Emergency physician, board certified doctor. Do you support relocking down these states?

[B]

There should not have been a lockdown in the first place, and there definitely should not be a lockdown now.

[A]

Why should there not have been a lockdown in the first place?

[B]

Well, there's really no evidence that it's going to change the overall incidence of death. Right. So we have to put everything into context. So back in 1968 and 1969, there was something called the Hong Kong flu. And the Hong Kong flu during Woodstock was a big deal. And about 100,000 people died during the Hong Kong flu. That would translate be equivalent to about 150, 175,000 Covid today due to. Or we have an older population, more dense population and a less physically active population, obese. So our number of 150,000 to 175,000, which we're not even at yet, happened in 1968 and 69. This is the same time Woodstock happened. So the New York Times has a headline, 100,000 people are dying from Hong Kong flu. I didn't see any headline that said the Woodstock Festival was canceled. So I don't understand this. We can't go into a nail salon with three people, but you can have Woodstock. So let's put things in perspective.

[A]

Yes. And so, and I don't, I don't even. Do you think that some of these numbers are dying with or dying because of the Chinese coronavirus? Do you think that there's any wisdom to that?

[B]

There's no doubt as a board certified emergency physician that I can attest to personally from things I've personally seen as well as my colleagues, that absolutely. You're writing COVID 19 on death certificates as a cause when it's not accurate. I refer all of your viewers to an unbelievable video by Dr. Scott Jensen, who's a state senator in I believe Minnesota. He also is a well regarded, very well respected family practitioner. He actually got, I think Minnesota family doctor of the year. So this is a very well regarded. He put out a video about two weeks ago about the inaccuracies on the death certificate. The reason it's such a problem for doctors is that's one of the areas you have to be incredibly precise. You can't be fooling around with the death certificate. There's all kinds of legal implications. So you have to watch that video. It's incredible. Dr. Scott Jensen.

[A]

So you think that the number might not be even as high as they say it is?

[B]

I don't think. I know. You know, I know that the number's not as high as they say it is. That's like indisputable.

[A]

What percentage skew do you think?

[B]

That's Speculation, but I mean just pure speculation. I think it's probably off by 20 or 30%.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's off by probably about 20%.

[A]

And even out of the ones that are legitimate deaths, they're mostly elderly with underlying health conditions.

[B]

Yeah. So let's Say I've got a person who's got underlying coronary artery disease and congestive heart failure, and he also has Covid. Right. He could certainly die. But let's put this in perspective. My father is a doctor. I've been in medicine, really, because of him, all of my life. And he had an old expression, which is pneumonia is an old man's best friend. What that means is pneumonia is one of the ways that we exit this world. So if you have coronary artery disease and diabetes and your kidneys are failing and you get Covid, you're probably going to die. That is being written down as a COVID death. But all those other comorbid conditions meant you were very likely to die within the next few months anyway.

[A]

Yes. And you have no immune system to speak of anyway.

[B]

Yeah. And just pneumonia is an old man's best friend. Covid doesn't really change that.

[A]

Is this virus more infectious than other viruses we've dealt with?

[B]

It is a great question, so I do think it is. It's a hard question to answer. It's not a simple question, but, yeah, it is a bit more infectious. Contagious, I would say. However, keep in mind, overwhelmingly, people don't get sick or they get very mildly sick. Overwhelmingly.

[A]

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[B]

So one of the biggest myths of this whole situation has been the myth of the asymptomatic super spreader.

[A]

Yes. So that's the reason they shut everything down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's one of the biggest. If you can debunk that.

[B]

Yeah. So it's sort of like looking for Bigfoot. Right. It's hard to prove that Bigfoot doesn't exist, except there's no actual evidence of it. Right. So there's been lots of studies that have debunked the concept of the asymptomatic spreader. I can leave them. I don't have links on your show, but we can link.

[A]

Yes, and they can email us. Freedom charliekirk.com and we'll respond with lots of studies.

[B]

I just want to say, not to bore everybody with the details, but there's lots of studies that have shown. They'll have studies where they'll have six children, six adults. They contact traced 1155 people, none of them converted, none of them tested positive. So do you understand what I'm saying? Six children, six adults, none out of 1155 tested positive.

[A]

Yes. So therefore the only way you could spread is through being symptomatic.

[B]

So to take a step back from COVID for a minute, the way viruses spread in general is a day or two before you really get symptomatic, you're pretty contagious. And then the first few days of symptoms, you're pretty contagious. So I wouldn't think that COVID 19 is really any different than that. So I would say that you're contagious, very contagious. Right in the beginning. And the best thing to do in general with all viruses is not to touch your nasal. Your nostrils. Right. Because that's how viruses overwhelmingly enter our body. That's one of my problems with the masks is that really, in general, all of your life, you shouldn't touch your nostrils. But the mask is making people touch their face all the time. Right. That's what I think is really kind of funny because viruses get in through the nostrils. So is it more contagious? It's a hard question to answer.

[A]

Are you a fan of the masks?

[B]

Well, masks are really foolish. They don't do anything. Again, I will link you to several studies. I did a little op ed in usda.

[A]

Masks don't do anything. We're told by everyone, wear masks. Wear masks. You gotta wear a mask. American Airlines are going to kick me off because I don't wear a mask.

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, we have a really big civil liberties problem in this country with the whole mask issue. I don't talk about masks so much because the question people are asking when it comes to masks is really a deep, existential, philosophical question, which is, am I going to be okay? That's the question they're asking. And you really can't answer that when you give them the data. But if you're asking me as a scientist, do the masks work? Well, the size of the virus and the size of the pores, the mask, about 200 to 1,000 times different. Right. So the virus is much tinier than the pores in a mask.

[A]

So, of course, the mask, according to other doctors I've talked to, limits oxygen flow.

[B]

So I've seen the same thing. And I don't go down that path. I just, I don't.

[A]

Do you think it would weaken our immune system potentially?

[B]

I think it's very harmful from a civil libertarian perspective that we're living in America and we're telling people to do something that makes no sense psychologically too harmful. It's changing our society. It's changing our society.

[A]

I'm not a fan of the masks at all.

[B]

Well, there's no science. Well, I will say for sure there's zero scientific justification for the mask.

[A]

Zero scientific.

[B]

Zero scientific justification is for the mask

[A]

makes people feel better.

[B]

I think it's. Hashtag social conditioning. And let me, let me get back to that. Does it make people feel better? So we scientists know that the masks are really quite foolish. So the New England Journal of Medicine just had a letter to the editor. I think it was a letter to the editor about a month ago it was. And they were talking about the usefulness of the mask, and it goes through the pros and the cons. But the end was really shocking. The end said, well, having looked at all of it, it's clear that they don't really work. But, you know, anxiety and fear are big issues, and this is maybe one of the better ways to address anxiety and fear. And I was very distressed that a scientific journal capitulated so completely. In other words, in the New England Journal of Medicine, they're saying that the masks don't really work. And yet they said maybe we should do them just to calm the fear and anxiety of the American public.

[A]

Do you think science and medicine have been now politicized?

[B]

So this has been a big heartbreak for me as a physician to see how terribly politicized medicine has become. Remember, I started this journey because I was prescribing hydroxychloroquine for a patient, and I got severely reprimanded for it at my hospital.

[A]

Wait, so you're an emergency decision doctor. You wanted what was best for your patients. You saw a drug that has been

[B]

around for quite a long time, 65 years, FDA approved.

[A]

FDA approved. We'll get into the efficacy, we'll get into all that in a second. But you, you knew what was best. And the way medicine works, it's individual doctors helping Individual patients. It's not some communal fiat. Right?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So Dr. Might know, might think something different than Dr. Smith for your patient. Because that's the whole idea of a patient doctor relationship. Who reprimanded you?

[B]

So I'm working as an emergency physician, so there's a medical director. So the medical director heard back from the pharmacy. And so kind of the pharmacy reports the doctors, which is kind of crazy. Right? The pharmacist wasn't upset with me. We're friends. But he just thought, well, you're not supposed to be prescribing this.

[A]

According to who?

[B]

According to the pharmacist who was empowered by the state. The various states have put in rules saying you should prescribe it. California. But it's not just California. It's the majority of states. Arizona.

[A]

So with the Republican governor, Doug Ducey.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So Ducey, I don't understand. He's acting like, you know, a blue state governor because his restrictions were very severe. The restrictions are worse in Democrat states, but they're also in Republican states.

[A]

So you got reprimanded by a pharmacist? A medical director.

[B]

The medical director of the emergency department reprimanded me quite severely. Basically told me my job would be on the line.

[A]

Because you wanted what was best for your patient.

[B]

Right, because the patient needed hydroxychloroquine. And I was told I couldn't prescribe it.

[A]

Did the patient get it?

[B]

So the patient got it.

[A]

And what was the result?

[B]

So every single patient I prescribed hydroxychloroquine and zinc to, every single one got better within hours. And I'm talking 12 hours, 20 hours. It's unbelievable.

[A]

So you still got reprimanded despite.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It had no.

[A]

Arguably. Not just arguably, but demonstrably 100%. And so then state board run by Gavin Mussolini. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Can I kind of talk about that a little bit about Gavin Newsom? So Gavin Newsom sends out a letter through the state medical board on April 3rd. I'll get you a copy. And it told all physicians who are going to prescribe that you could be charged, you could be brought up on unprofessional conduct if you Prescribe Hydroxychloroquine for COVID 19. It was a shocking letter to receive. This has never happened in the history of practicing medicine, that the governor of the state medical board can tell you.

[A]

Not medical politicians.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

He's telling you what to do.

[B]

Correct. That's exactly how it went down.

[A]

And so you saw it improve your six patients.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

This brings you on this rabbit hole dive, Correct. What is happening to our country? What is this? And you find that there is a power structure that says, no hydroxychloroquine. No hydroxychloroquine. No hydroxychloroquine. Okay, so we'll put that aside for a second because I want to have a whole hydroxychloroquine discussion. But then you recognize that deaths are not being reported the way they're supposed to, and then you realize and recognize that how many other patients are there that could have benefited from this? Right?

[B]

I have an answer for you on that, please. Yeah. So when you look at the data and you look at the study, I conferred with one of the most famous epidemiologists in the country, Dr. Harvey Reusch, who is Yale, Maryland, PhD, professor, I think, of epidemiology at Yale School of Public Health, who published this with Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. And I asked him to estimate what the death rate would have looked like if we had had a more liberal hydroxychloroquine policy in our country. What he said was absolutely shocking. He said between half and three quarters of the patients who died would not have died, which is 70,000 to 105,000 patients would not be dead.

[A]

So what you're saying is that if we would have had a sane hydroxychloroquine policy, we'd have anywhere between 70 to 105,000 more people still alive.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

They wouldn't have died for other underlying health conditions?

[B]

No, they'd be alive. In other words, they'd go on with wherever they were. There would have been.

[A]

No, they wouldn't have gone.

[B]

There's all this excess death for disease that could have been treated early and rationally.

[A]

Why are governors, even Republican governors, deciding to say no hydroxychloroquine when they don't know?

[B]

So I've actually thought about that question a lot, quite deeply, because you can't assume that all governors are trying to hurt people. So you have to assume they're hearing bad advice. So as an example of an exception, the governor of South Dakota, Kristi Noem, actually did try to give her citizens hydroxychloroquine, and she stood alone amongst, I believe, alone. However, a study then came out that was not accurate, which I can go over with you, and even she had to then kind of bow a little bit. So there's a lot of, I think, people with vested interests in making sure that the best treatment doesn't get to the patient and it's very upsetting.

[A]

As a doctor, best treatment doesn't get to the patient.

[B]

That is correct.

[A]

That we can have more deaths, not less deaths. So let's talk. Let's talk about hydroxychloroquine. And then I want to get into it. France and Canada took it off their shelves in January. Is that right?

[B]

Yes, yes. Well, we have to start with that. Hydroxychloroquine is over the counter, really, in much of the world. I mean, that's going to come as a shock to people because all you hear about hydroxychloroquine is it's so controversial. It's actually not at all controversial. If you Google hydroxychloroquine, you won't find anything about it. But pre 2020, right. It was just normal standard. People had it in their pockets in other parts of the world and would take it. And it was like Tylenol and the

[A]

studies that you've seen and your experience shows that this works. Talk about the efficacy of it.

[B]

Yeah. So anytime we talk about a drug, we just have to think of it in two parts. Is it safe and does it work? Right. Those are the two things, safety and efficacy. So there's been a lot of controversy over the efficacy, but we really have to start with safety, because if a drug is safe, it should be widely available. We have tons of stuff out there that we're selling that doesn't work. I mean, that's capitalism for you. Right? You can buy anything you want. The question is, is it safe? So the first thing everyone needs to know is that it's safe. How safe is it? Well, the CDC has on its own website how safe it is. Right. So the CDC says, who can take hydroxychloroquine? And direct from the CDC website, hydroxychloroquine can be prescribed to adults and children of all ages. It can also be safely taken by pregnant women and nursing mothers. They could have said children, but this is funny. Who should not take hydroxychloroquine? Very exhaustive list. People with psoriasis should not take hydroxychloroquine, period. Everyone can take it.

[A]

Can I see that? So this is the CDC's own website.

[B]

This is the CDC website on hydroxychloroquine.

[A]

And so yet the FDA's current guidance on hydroxychloroquine is what?

[B]

So this is where it gets good. So patients don't realize that once a drug is FDA approved, it can be used for any use, but it only gets approved for one particular use, the use it gets approved for is called on label. So a drug might get approved for pneumonia, for example, but once it's approved, doctors can use it for multiple things. We do this on purpose because doctors can learn by trial and error what things work. And as long as the drug is safe, they can find new uses for the drug. Also, the pharmaceuticals don't like to go back and get another on label designation because it's really expensive. So the bottom line is for doctors, we don't think about on label or off label. It doesn't matter to us at all. We just do the right thing for the patient. So what the FDA did with hydroxychloroquine is unique. I've asked everybody, nobody has heard of anything like this. They said that doctors cannot prescribe hydroxychloroquine or should not prescribe hydroxychloroquine off label. As far as we can tell, that has never happened with any FDA approved medication. But what I really want to stress is the average person, when they hear the word off label or the phrase off label, they might think that's kind of strange. It's not at all strange. We use off label as physicians 21% of the time. We use it all the time. For example, aspirin in patients with heart disease is indicated. Probably everybody listening to your show has somebody in their family who takes aspirin with heart disease. But if you've got diabetes or other conditions and heart disease, it's off label to use aspirin morphine. If a kid comes into your ER who's broken their leg and we want to give them morphine for pain, which we do every day, is off label. So off label is just like kind of a normal use of drug. It doesn't mean anything. So the media caught onto this phrase off label. And then the FDA told us we can't use it off label. So then the states are telling the doctors you can't use it off label. But off label is 21% of all prescriptions.

[A]

And so the FDA now basically disallows the.

[B]

Essentially disallows it. And what's really interesting, Charlie, is I had a face to face meeting with Dr. Birx just about a week ago.

[A]

Dr. Deborah Birx.

[B]

Dr. Deborah Birx from the Coronavirus Task Force. Yeah, so we ran into her. We were up in Washington D.C. and we ran into her and I was sharing with her that it's quite difficult for doctors to prescribe hydroxychloroquine and she said to me, no, no, no, no, of course you can still prescribe it. It's an FDA approved medicine. I said, no, no, the FDA has said that it's not effective and therefore we shouldn't use it. And she said, no, no, absolutely not true. Of course you can prescribe hydroxychloroquine off label, absolutely. And I said, would you please issue a public clarification to that effect? And she said, absolutely, I will issue a public clarification. And she said us so but I'm waiting for the public clarification because we've asked her twice.

[A]

She. And this really frustrates me. You're in the trenches, correct? You're the one that actually has to look patients in the eye that are dying. She gets to go change her scarves every single day and go on television. And I'm just about at my. I'm just about done with all these celebrity doctors and I want to talk. I mean, you could, you have to be careful with what you say and you should be because you want to remain very, you know, non judgmental of people. Let me do that for you. Because Dr. Birx changing her scarves every single day says things that are so preposterously untrue. She's misleading the American people and she doesn't even know. Has Dr. Birx had to look for someone in the eye who's dying of COVID 19? Has she had to do that or is she just changing her scarf every day?

[B]

So what I can say, she appeared to not know that we were having trouble hydroxy prescribing hydroxychloroquine, which I thought was very remarkable because it's quite well known amongst doctors. And by the way, it's quite tragic to look at a patient and know you can't give them the right thing. It's a pretty heavy burden to bear as a human being.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, so there's doctors that want to prescribe. Have you ever dealt in your medical experience, your medical history, not being able to prescribe something?

[B]

This has never ever happened in the history of medicine. And my father was a doctor, so I believe I would know. I've never heard of a situation where the FDA said you've got a generic safe drug. It's been FDA approved for 65 years. We can give it to pregnant women, breastfeeding women, children, elderly and immunocompromised. But oh, by the way, you just can't use it for Covid. And there's tons of efficacy studies that it works. And there's doctors that want to use it and patients that want to take it. I've never heard of such a thing.

[A]

Is it safer than Tylenol?

[B]

It's safer than Tylenol. It's safer than aspirin. It's safer than Motrin.

[A]

The American Heart association said it does not impact the QT interval. Is that correct?

[B]

Yeah. So the thing that your listeners have heard before is that, oh, maybe it affects my heart, maybe it affects my heart. This is just the craziest. It's almost a rumor. It's not completely a rumor because there is tiny, tiny basis of factual truth that hydroxychloroquine is one of many hundreds of drugs that can do this thing called prolong the QT interval. And if it does that in a severe way, you could run into a heart problem. But it's super rare. And it was really theoretical. And you know how theoretical it was, Charlie, is that the people that prescribe it are rheumatologists on their own website. They don't even recommend getting an EKG before you start hydroxychloroquine. I mean, it's theoretical.

[A]

Why would somebody not want hydroxychloroquine to be. Are there forces to be that don't have money to make in this situation?

[B]

You know, I just started down this path a few months ago, and like, I think everybody listening, we all kind of thought this was because Donald Trump said this was possibly a good thing. On March 19, and then March 20, the media exploded all over this drug. I always thought that was the reason that the media was so against it. But what I found very curious was when the remdesivir study came out about a month or two months ago, and people didn't look at it critically, and I thought it looked like it was weakly, mildly helpful, but the media didn't jump on that, and they just gave it a free pass and said it was the answer. I started looking at that more closely, and I realized that people were talking or taking hydroxychloroquine off the shelf long before Trump said it was good. In other words, I just think it dovetailed with what the media wanted to believe about Trump, but I don't know that that was the reason there's been so much hatred towards hydroxychloroquine. Hydroxychloroquine is a cheap drug with no profit potential.

[A]

No profit potential?

[B]

No profit potential.

[A]

So it says, I'm reading from Time magazine. The signing is what you're talking about. April 24th FDA issues warning about hydroxychloroquine for COVID 19. Correct. And has that warning been retracted?

[B]

It has not been retracted. And that was based on faulty studies. Specifically the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine published really fraudulent studies and they actually got retracted. And we were waiting for the FDA to pull back on that statement, but they haven't.

[A]

So why are you, why are they fraudulent?

[B]

There were so many problems with. They said they had a database of over 90,000 people. It wasn't possible. One of the hospitals said we didn't even admit that many patients in a year. Like there's no way it was possible to happen. So what they did is the Lancet then went back to the company that provided the data, a company called Surgisphere, and they said, show us your data because that has to be part of being published in the Lancet that you can prove your data. They went back to Surgisphere and Surgisphere said, no, no, no, we're not going to give you our data. So then the Lancet had to do a retraction. But this is the craziest part. Surgisphere, this little company is scrubbed from the Internet. You can't find it. Gone, right? Gone. Like doesn't exist. Right, Exactly.

[A]

So the company that did the study,

[B]

the company that did the study that got published in the most famous medical journal in the world, New England Journal of Medicine, this one was the Lancet. And both, it was both the Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine, the number one in two journals in the world, took a study that was so obviously fraudulent, the company that provided the data is now scrubbed from the Internet like it never existed.

[A]

And yet the FDA still has their policy up.

[B]

The FDA still has their policy based on those retracted studies.

[A]

Why is our government not doing what's the right thing?

[B]

Well, right now there's a lawsuit brought by doctors like me against the FDA to say please stop saying this stuff. And it's just winding its way through court. I have no idea. That lawsuit is, you know, addressed to Dr. Hahn, the head of the FDA. I don't know. I really, I, I would ask Dr. Hahn why are we not making it clear that patient, the doctors can continue to prescribe off label for hydroxychloroquine just like they do for any other FDA

[A]

approved med trust doctors or do you think, I mean, how is Dr. Hahn acting any different than the head of Gilead?

[B]

So I think that doctors to some extent represent the last line of freedom and truth. And independence. Not all doctors, but the doctor patient relationship had never been violated in my career. It's that little space of protection. Right. That has now been violated by the government and by pharmacists. You can't have a conversation with patients. How can I tell them what they need if I know they can't get it? So I can't even have a conversation with them. It's actually heartbreaking to me as a doctor. And I think doctors, again, not all doctors, but they're like me. They're a bit independent as compared to pharmacists or the government. And I would say to the American people, maybe not every doctor's perfect, but of all the people in this situation to trust, the most trustworthy one is the doctor.

[A]

I would hope so.

[B]

Compared to the pharmacist and the government, I would say so.

[A]

And so you can't.

[B]

The pharmacist. I'm not maligning a pharmacist. I'm saying pharmacists tend to be employed by big corporations that give them policies telling them what to do. So I don't mean the individual pharmacist. I want to be clear.

[A]

Completely agree. So. But our government is not doing what's best for its people currently.

[B]

That's an understatement.

[A]

Elaborate. That more so because we have 75,000 people that could have been saved, minimum.

[B]

So when you.

[A]

How's the FDA going to be held accountable for 75,000 dead people?

[B]

Only if the press and the American public holds them accountable.

[A]

Good luck.

[B]

You know, there's, you know, this becomes real for you when it's your grandmother or your uncle in the hospital. And then people like that have become advocates. People contact me.

[A]

I have a dear friend who's in the hospital on a ventilator and was asked for hydroxychloroquine and denied it.

[B]

I don't know what to say. I hear stories like this all the time. I have friends.

[A]

I just don't think as a society, we care about human life like we

[B]

say we do, 100%. We do not care about human life based on our actions of how we're treating them. We're not treating the elderly well. We're not treating people who.

[A]

But that's. It's so Orwellian. Doctor. Because the left says they care about it. Like, oh, we care about human life. Go to the nursing home and go kill you. We care about human life. Don't take that drug that could save you.

[B]

Yeah, it's exactly what's going on.

[A]

It's not even a lie. It's Orwellian.

[B]

It's double speed. Yeah. It's not even, it's overwhelming to see.

[A]

It's the opposite of a truth. In the studies you're doing right now and they're talking to doctors, do you feel that there's a resistance growing to

[B]

this growing resistance growing to the government

[A]

oversight just to the, to the built in orthodoxy in our country that hydroxychloroquine is bad. It's the worst virus in the history of the world. Are doctors starting to push back? I guess is probably a better way to word it.

[B]

That is a painful question for me because not enough doctors are pushing back. And I do think the doctors to some extent have drunk the Kool Aid as well. I've had very disturbing conversations with intelligent people who can't see what's right in front of them. And I think doctors at this point, you know, they've drunk the Kool Aid to some extent as well. There are many thousands of doctors like me, many thousands. But I don't believe it's difficult to live in America and not believe something that you're being told 24 7.

[A]

Well, that's the whole purpose of this podcast, is to try to get to breakthrough.

[B]

Let me give you an interesting example to tell you about doctors. So back when this kind of first started and we first started seeing hospitalized patients, I was told that I couldn't use hydroxychloroquine. And I didn't really say anything because we didn't have the COVID tests. So I couldn't absolutely prove it was indicated, but I wanted to use it, but I didn't. Then when we got the rapid COVID test and we could prove that someone had Covid and I started prescribing it, I got into a lot of trouble. Then our hospital changed its policy like many hospitals did, and said you could use hydroxychloroquine. And I said, well, what changed from Monday to Tuesday? Like, what changed? Does the group think change? Like what changed? Like, no science change. It was just group think. So we were prescribing it for about a month. Then we stopped doing it because everyone else stopped doing it because the FDA said what it said. And again I said to my peers, well, what changed? Like, was there some new information that came down?

[A]

No.

[B]

So I'm very upset when doctors themselves don't hold the line for truth and accuracy. But again, there are many thousands of doctors with me.

[A]

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[B]

This is actually incredibly tragic for me. As a physician, you know, my dad was a doctor, I come from a family of doctors. I've never seen anything like this. And I've also spoken with so many of my colleagues who've never seen anything like this. The scientists who are publishing on this have never seen this. I'll give you an example that isn't well known. You may have heard of the most recent study on hydroxychloroquine that was positive. Right. The reason it got a lot of fuss was it actually took place in America. It was published by American scientists. It took place in Detroit at Henry Ford Hospital. And it actually showed that hydroxychloroquine cut the mortality by half, which is a really dramatic number. And by the way, that was in half of patients who were hospitalized, which means it's late stage. So that's really dramatic. So they published it. But this is a curious thing. When you look at the date that they finish the study and the date that they publish the study, there's like a six or seven week lag in between. So I called up some of the scientists and I said, hey, what was the deal with, why was it weeks and weeks late? Because in Covid time everything is published immediately, right? They do pre press, pre publication press. Especially if you had good news like that, you come up with it right away, it's really important.

[A]

You think it would be instantaneous?

[B]

Correct. But it was good news on hydroxychloroquine, so they actually delayed it, which is. So what happened when I was told is that the hospital didn't want it to do a pre press publication, like a press conference, basically saying the results until it was accepted by a scientific journal. But the scientific journal, nobody would accept it for five or six weeks, a very long time. Which is actually remarkable because when it finally did come out, it was huge news. Even CNN covered it. Right. But you know when they dumped it into the news cycle Friday before July 4th.

[A]

Yeah. That's probably the time if you wanted to bury it. Right.

[B]

I mean it was unbelievable. And really as a scientist I found this like unbelievable.

[A]

And no one really talks about it.

[B]

No one talks about it. So just so you listeners know, it's been shown to proven in an American hospital in Detroit by American scientists.

[A]

So according to the studies, the math, your personal experiences, all of your accumulated experiences, do you think it would be a good thing if hydroxychloroquine was made more available?

[B]

Yeah, we definitely need hydroxychloroquine to be more available. I say like, why don't we have the same rights as people in Kazakhstan. Like. Give me a break.

[A]

Wait. So Kazakhstan.

[B]

Kazakhstan is pronounced wrong.

[A]

So Kazakhstan has. Hydroxychloroquine is over the counter.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Why. Yeah. And now it's in liberty. They have more liberty.

[A]

I'm sure it's a very nice place. I've known people from Kazakhstan, really nice people. But they have more liberty than we do.

[B]

They do, yeah.

[A]

What other countries?

[B]

I've got a whole list. So we've got most, you know, we've got Honduras, in Panama. So in high Honduras, Costa Rica, Indonesia.

[A]

So in Indonesia, interesting example. Not exactly the land of the free and the home of the brave. In Indonesia, Iran.

[B]

The mullahs in Iran. The mullahs in Iran. You can go in and buy it.

[A]

Wait, hold on a second.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

No, no, no. So tell me.

[B]

Indonesia.

[A]

Iran's great. No, I was like, hold on. Are you kidding me? In Iran you can buy hydroxychloroquine over the counter?

[B]

That is correct.

[A]

But if you're gay, they'll throw you off the roof and they'll kill you.

[B]

You can get hydroxychloroquine, though.

[A]

You have the liberty to get hydroxychloroquine.

[B]

That is correct.

[A]

In Iran, In America. Is it hard to get it right now?

[B]

It's actually incredibly difficult. It's incredibly difficult.

[A]

Is there a supply issue?

[B]

There's no supply issue. We have 63 million dosages sitting, doing nothing in the national stockpile.

[A]

Did the government buy them?

[B]

The government? It was donated to the government and they're sitting by different pharmaceuticals.

[A]

Why would they donate it?

[B]

I mean, President Trump asked for it,

[A]

but then it took it off the private market, didn't it?

[B]

There was no profit motive there. It was free. It was essentially free. It was basically a free transaction, but it's just sitting unused.

[A]

The point is that it took it off the capacity for us to be able to get it. So the federal government has it under their control right now.

[B]

There's no supply issue. Anybody who. Anybody who has a physician who prescribes it and a pharmacist who will fill it. We have no supply issue. There's plenty of supply. The problem is that the pharmacists are blocking it and that the state medical boards are threatening their doctors from prescribing it.

[A]

So we have no supply issue. Third world countries get it at total accessibility.

[B]

Yeah. So in India, it's national policy that all their healthcare workers can get it just by asking for it.

[A]

Third world country base. I Mean, India is breaking out of third world, but. Yeah, that is correct. So what's the difference without causation and correlation? But is there a difference generally between countries that take it and their mortality rates and countries that don't?

[B]

Yeah, it's overwhelming. So in countries that have a liberal hydroxychloroquine policy, meaning you think you could just buy it at the counter or your doctor can give it to you, there's no, I can never say that word.

[A]

Politicization.

[B]

Politicization of the drug. Those countries have a mortality rate that's a case fatality rate that's much more.

[A]

You showed me the graphic previously.

[B]

Yeah. It's a fraction of what it is in first world countries like America and the UK and France and Belgium and Ireland.

[A]

So it's really a western rich country.

[B]

It's a western rich country that we're

[A]

self imposing on ourselves.

[B]

Yeah. And then there's other people like Mexico also. So there are some political issues, but it is mostly first world problems.

[A]

So we have a pharmaceutical industrial complex that doesn't see any profit motive behind this, but they would behind a vaccine. Right.

[B]

There's no money to be made on hydroxyl chloroquine, period.

[A]

But there's lives to be saved.

[B]

Oh, tons of lives to be saved. It's tragic.

[A]

So our government, and I love Trump, I love President Trump, but he's being undermined by deep state bureaucrats that are bought by the pharmaceutical industrial complex and they're undermining him and lying to him and mixed with the pharmaceutical power structure that basically is like, oh, we don't care if 100,000 people die, but we're going to say like we care so we can get more power. But even though there's these pills, 63 million pills that could help people.

[B]

So we, we are asking to have access to those 63 million pills.

[A]

Where are, I mean, where are they physically?

[B]

I think they're physically. I think they're physically here in Arizona. I think that's so much. How many. The national stockpile is here, I think. So we need to go raid that. By the way, there could be a huge black market. I don't know why black market hasn't really.

[A]

That's what I'm trying to understand.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. People, by the way, people bring it in from other countries. So people have relatives in other countries, like Indonesia.

[A]

I would never do this, but I could go to North Phoenix and get cocaine. Like I'm not exactly cottage industry of Charlie Kirk, but there's, I mean, there's meth on the streets of Phoenix. You would think that some of these.

[B]

Could I share with you something funny?

[A]

Please.

[B]

I had two congressmen ask me, how can they get hydroxychloroquine?

[A]

And what was your answer?

[B]

I was like, you have to go to your doctor. But. And I looked up their states. They said, oh, in your state, it's very difficult. So, I mean, it's not. You can't even buy your way out of this. Like, if you had, you know, all the money in the world, you could be a multimillionaire. But if your doctor doesn't has also drunk the Kool Aid, that it's not helpful and the pharmacist won't prescribe it.

[A]

Here's what I understand is that why have not, like the drug leaders just decided, like, hey, you can come get some hydroxychloroquine.

[B]

It's a really good industry, cottage industry.

[A]

I don't know, it's not that complex.

[B]

To me, it's very. It's actually quite easy. And by the way, there's tons of supply now in India. You know, India has a lot. So why, I think, you know, that could be a little side business.

[A]

Do you think that part of the way we end all this nonsense lies in hydroxychloroquine?

[B]

Listen, we are entrapped as a society in a spider web of fear, right? It's not the virus that's destroying this country at all. The virus is a real disease that affects people predominantly with comorbid conditions and to some extent older people, but overwhelmingly sick people. It's much less deadly than influenza for people under 60 who don't have problems. It's not at all a problem for children. Children are essentially immune. I'd like to get back to that subject. But the point is, it's not the virus that's doing our country in. It's the spider web of fear around it. So what we need to do is we need to break that spider web, right? How can we get rid of fear? That's what's driving American. Well, if Americans knew that there was treatment available, should they get sick or should grandma or mom get sick, they would stop operating in fear and they would shrug off all the kind of fascist, anti civil libertarian policies that have been instituted by governors. So my plan is to get rid of the fear and hopefully make hydroxychloroquine more widely available.

[A]

I mean, just waiting for a vaccine seems awfully so.

[B]

First of all, the quickest time to a vaccine has been five years and this particular virus is kind of tricky and complicated. And one of the things I don't like when I hear about the vaccine trials is part of the reason vaccine trials take a long time is you have to wait a while and see the effect on the person over a time period, right. Over two years, three years. Was there kind of a delayed reaction? There's no way to hurry that up? No. The government might change its rules and say, well, hurry it up, but there's no substitute for time. So I'm very leery of a vaccine that comes out very quickly.

[A]

So what's really bizarre about this virus is that children are basically. They have a higher likelihood of dying from other viruses, right?

[B]

100%.

[A]

Have you ever seen a virus like this?

[B]

This is a really peculiar little virus. You know, usually if you get a cold or you get influenza, everyone knows what that feels like. Everyone feels about the same. But this virus is interesting, right. A lot of people don't get sick at all.

[A]

It impacts people completely different.

[B]

Exactly. So somebody asked me once, are kids immune? And somebody said, no, no, they're not immune. I said, well, I don't know, what do you call it if you've got exposed to something and you don't get sick from it? You know, I call that immunity. Kids seem to be immune from this virus.

[A]

You've never seen a virus like that, right?

[B]

Well, there are viruses that preferentially affect different ages. This virus seems to preferentially not affect the young.

[A]

I mean, I would guess this sounds like something that was made in a lab.

[B]

What I will say for sure is that the Wuhan, China has a biosafety hazard lab, level four, one of only 50 in the world.

[A]

50 in the world?

[B]

There's only 50 biosafety lab level fours in the world. China's only biosafety hazard lab, level four, is in Wuhan. They don't have any others. It was kind of a point of pride to them. They only opened it in January or March of 2017. They have had safety issues that were well documented prior to this event. And they've also had documented safety issues with a level three microorganism. So in other words, China had a track record of not containing level three, then they got a level four lab. So it's not really a stretch to think that they let their Level 4 safety standards be a little bit lax. What we can say for sure is that the theory that it came from a bat market, a wet market.

[A]

That's nonsense.

[B]

Was only a few miles away, coincidentally, from the biosafety hazard level 4 lab in Wuhan, which again, the only biosafety hazard lab level four in China was a few miles from this supposed wet mark. That's a fact.

[A]

A lot of these governors want to lock down their states. Again. Gavin Mussolini is doing that and other Republican governors are doing that. Your emergency physician. Have you seen how the lockdowns have had a negative impact on people health wise?

[B]

So first of all, for sure, like, I mean, have you heard the quarantine? 15 people are gaining weight, they're not exercising, the kids are not going to school. Right. The suicide hot rate line is through the roof.

[A]

Tell me about the suicide.

[B]

Oh my gosh, there's so much data on this.

[A]

You know what's so interesting? Our whole research team here at the Charlie Kirk show and everyone that supports our [e-mail] support helps us do that. We spent hours, we couldn't find any published suicide data from the last couple months. Nowhere.

[B]

So I'm going to bring you one. A study that we have in Los Angeles listing of the numbers of phone calls that went up to the suicide hot rate line went through the roof. But you are right, there's a dearth of published data about this. So I had to get this directly from the sites themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, to me that's a bit of a cover up because there's no

[A]

question they don't want to. I mean our elites don't care about the fact that kids are committing suicide.

[B]

Yeah. There's no question that the race they

[A]

care about, people are going to church.

[B]

Yeah. There's no question that the psychological impact of the lockdown is enormous. Enormous. And by the way, a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist has said that he takes care of children and grownups and that a girl, when Governor Newsom said that you could actually go out and go to the beach, said to her father, no, no, no, no, no, we can't go to the beach. We can't go to the beach. And he's like, why not? He goes, there's people at the beach. So he said, this is exactly the kind of person who's going to develop a phobia as an adult. Absolutely. For sure.

[A]

And we're seeing. I mean, if I was a pharmaceutical company, I would love what was happening. Everyone has antidepressants on the increase.

[B]

That's a very good point. I didn't think of that until you said it.

[A]

You have everyone that's, yeah, I need this drug to offset this drug. I'm obese So I need this one.

[B]

This one, this one, yeah. So why can't we have one for hydroxychloroquine then?

[A]

Well, because there's no profit to be made.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Just put it in your pocket.

[A]

And meanwhile, our government, who's supposed to be for us, is preventing that from happening. I thought we were all about liberty.

[B]

So this is what I think is going on. I think, like everybody's advising, you know, the President not to touch the hydroxychloroquine issue just because there's been so much negative press. But I'm telling you, as a scientist, it's unconscionable that we don't have access to this drug. It's unconscionable.

[A]

You know what's so interesting is that, and this is just more a political statement in dc, a lot of people are always like, well, you should have the liberty to be able to do cannabis. You should have the liberty to be able to put whatever you want in your body at all times. Liberty. Right. Legalize prostitution. Liberty. But you don't have the liberty to go get something that could save your life that is less lethal than Tylenol and aspirin.

[B]

So you know what they're doing in Honduras? They're actually going door to door with a goodie bag of medicine. And they would have put hydroxychloroquine in it, but they didn't have enough supply. But they're doing this to get hydroxychloroquine to the people. So they're giving them a goody bag. But in doing that, they're discovering who's really sick. And those who they think are a little bit sick, they actually give them hydroxychloroquine, essentially door to door in goody bags.

[A]

I mean, Honduras is ahead of the curve here.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, us is at the bottom.

[A]

Yeah, we're at the bottom of.

[B]

We're in the bottom 25%, I would say.

[A]

I mean, basically the way I look at it is if you have money and you're at the higher income distribution and you have a concierge doctor in Beverly Hills or Bel Air and you get COVID 19, the Chinese coronavirus, someone will get fined. You hydroxychloroquine, they'll fly it in for you. But if you're a middle class worker from Pittsburgh and you might be a little overweight, your job got shipped overseas to China and your wages have stagnated and you happen to get the Chinese coronavirus and they stick you with some hospital, you're like, can I have that thing that I found on tv? No, no, we don't have any of that. And then they put you on a ventilator and you die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It just. That's evil, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. So there's no question that it's evil. I hate the elitist mentality that some people can get things that other people can't get. That really kind of.

[A]

Especially when it's widely accessible. We have 63 million pills hidden in Arizona somewhere.

[B]

Yeah. So we just have to stress that this drug, this medication, is incredibly safe. It should be over the counter. It's over the counter in much of the world. The fact that you can just buy it in Indonesia so people in Indonesia will actually mail it to people here. And you're right that people will call up people like me and other doctors who are okay with hydroxychloroquine and try to get it. But if you're middle class or no connections, you know, you don't even know. You don't even know that you need it.

[A]

But the rulers don't care if they die. They actually have contempt for those people.

[B]

Yeah, it's very. It's immoral. What's going on?

[A]

Oh, it's evil. It's the definition of evil. But we're supposed to then stay at home because people singing at church is somehow how we're going to spread the virus. Yeah, some nonsense. Like, I want to close with this. You say this is a big lie. How big is this lie? I mean, how much are we being deceived here generally? Just give me an enormity of what we're going through right now, the severity of it.

[B]

On a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of lies, we are at like 9.5. It's almost complete lies, what you're hearing, almost entirely. So this is a disease that does not hurt children. And we're talking about keeping schools closed, L.A. uniform. This is a disease that, if you close the schools. I'm sorry, let's back up. This is a disease that doesn't hurt children. And we're talking about keeping schools closed. We know that keeping schools closed does hurt children. So that's immoral. This is a disease that kills frail, older people. We didn't protect them. This is a disease that, if you treat it early, doesn't become anything. You know, Covid's in two parts, the early phase and the late phase. Those are really different diseases. Early is about viral replication. You need hydroxychloroquine in zinc. Late is when your system shuts down from a cytokine storm. Very different diseases. You really need to understand it's two different diseases. So why are we depriving the people who are not that sick of a drug right in the beginning that helps them? What I'd like to say is, you know, you could get cancer and get the best chemotherapy or maybe we don't have to get cancer in the first place, so we don't have to get cancer in the first place. If you give someone a pill that we have that's cheap and it's safe and we. Most of what you're seeing is not 9.5 on a scale of 1 to 10 is where we're at in terms of the disinformation that's out there.

[A]

Disinformation, Target disinformation. Some of it might be. We don't know motives. Right. But we know there's a profit motive out there.

[B]

I have my theories on motives. I just won't be saying them on the air, But I think your listeners are smart enough to draw their own

[A]

conclusions and ask the right questions. Yeah, you used the word homicide earlier with some of these governors. Is that. Do you want to elaborate on that?

[B]

You know, I didn't come to say that word lightly. But you know, what if it's your mother, your grandmother, and she's in a nursing home and she's 92 years old and she's basically in okay shape, but she's got a reason to be there, like diabetes or coronary artery disease. And then a governor ships a patient with known Covid back to that space and then she gets Covid and she dies. How is that not homicide? It's not as though you didn't know that the person that you sending in a loaded gun. So, yes. Now I don't think anything will happen because of sovereign immunity. I am a lawyer too, so sovereign immunity, I think, would protect the governors, but it was unconscionable.

[A]

Doctor, you. What interests me is that you're not a political person. You're a doctor. You want what's best for your patients. And that's how you came into it.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And so now we have could have been, according to you here, 75, 70 to 100,000 people could have been saved and the death rate might be inflated by 30%. Ish.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

That was speculation. I want to be clear, though, that was we prefaced when we did that. Any closing thoughts?

[B]

I want Americans to move out of a state of fear when you're living in a state of fear. You're allowing your civil liberties to be trampled upon, but you're going to have to live with the consequences of losing your civil liberties long after this has become a distant memory. So if this was warranted it, if this was a very contagious, highly lethal illness, you might say it's worth it to limit my civil liberties. But it's not that. There are situations like that. Smallpox would come to mind, Right? Polio would sort of maybe come to mind a bit. Covid19 Definitely not. Overwhelmingly, people don't know that they're sick or they're mildly sick or they survive. Overwhelmingly. We should not be living in fear. Absolutely not.

[A]

And it could destroy our country.

[B]

It is destroying our country. That's why I'm here.

[A]

We will have a mental health crisis manufactured by our own making of young people because we have robbed them of their social development phase. You're an emergency physician. You study medicine. How important are kids being able to go outside and socialize? That's not an insignificant thing, right?

[B]

This is huge. And the mask issue is a real problem for kids, right? Just things maybe you haven't thought about people. Kids need to see people's facial expressions to understand the world and learn emotions and learn. Like that's how they learn more than babies. First of all, I was personally threatened at my work, so I have many stories like that. Many stories. I mean, I didn't even tell you that. Oh, oh, no. For prescribing hydroxychloroquine. For speaking out. It's all over the Internet. Doctors who have personally.

[A]

What you're saying is the same culture that. And you don't have to say anything about this because I know you're not political. Same culture that if you dare not post a black square, if you dare not take a knee, if you dare not in the corporate world. The same thing on medicine. If you dare speak out against.

[B]

Yeah, I'll speak very strongly about that. Staying away from politics. There's a medical cancel culture that's as aggressive as the rest of cancel culture

[A]

is supposed to be. What's best for the patient.

[B]

It's horrific. Listen, how did the Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, print fraud? How's that possible? You know, I didn't even tell you about the JAMA study. The JAMA study which said that. And Borba back in April said that hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine would be bad, actually gave lethal doses of the drug. And they didn't blame the lethal doses, they just blamed the drug itself. So the scientific community's also been infected.

[A]

Scientific community's been infected by this nonsense,

[B]

by the medical cancel culture.

[A]

And if you dare disagree, they'll destroy your life.

[B]

That is correct.

[A]

That's not science. That's not a scientific method. This is collectivist, fascist nonsense.

[B]

Very much so.

[A]

It'll destroy our country.

[B]

That's why I'm speaking out.

[A]

Well, thank you. So it's Dr. Simone Gold. We're actually gonna have another really fun, important episode soon. That's all I'm gonna say.

[B]

That sounds good.

[A]

With other doctors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're just gonna tease it, right? Any way they can stay in touch with you or you just want to come?

[B]

Yeah. So, you know I'm here. As you know, we started an organization called America's Frontline Doctors. So we don't feel a need to silence any other doctors, any experts. But there are lots more experts out there that you need to hear from, and that's the frontline doctors who are out there. You said some doctors are wearing scars. Other doctors are seeing patients. So America's Frontline doctors are coming to

[A]

talk to you, and you're the ones that are actually supposed to be in your patient's best interest, and you want the ability to do that.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So for everyone listening, just to recap, Dr. Gold here has no agenda except what's best for her patients and for the country. And our country's going in a really dangerous direction because we're being lied to. Not just. Not just lied to. It's Orwellian. It's double. It's double thing. Double speak. Oh, old people are at risk. Let's put all the old people together that are infected. Young people can't be at risk. Let's shut down their schools. It's so incredibly Orwellian. Thank you, Dr. Gold. I'm not optimistic from what you've told me, but people need to fight back. This is a disgrace. We're losing everything that we've created in the West. Rational thinking, Socratic dialogue, the Enlightenment. It's now all going to mob identity politics. And I hope we can survive it.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

All right, thank you, Dr. Gold. Wow, what a great interview that was with Dr. Simone Gold. Please consider getting involved with TurningPoint USA at tpusa.com tpusa.com, email us your questions at freedomarliekirk.com freedom charliekirk.com if you guys want a signed copy of the MAGA doctrine, take out your phone right now. Type in Charlie Kirk show to your podcast provider. Hit that subscribe button and give us a five star review. Prove to us that you have done it and email us Freedom at charliekirk. Com Freedom at charliekirk. Com thank you guys so much for listening. More coming soon. God bless you and God bless our country.