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- [00:00]
Charlie Kirk
Hey, everybody.
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Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio.
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Christopher Ruffo joins the show. All about disparate impact affirmative action DEI and Harvard and Princeton. And secondly, we then have Senator Mark Wayne Mullen from the great state of Oklahoma. Talk about Pete Hegseth, Kash Patel, and one big beautiful bill. Email us as always, freedomarliekirk.com and subscribe to the Charlie Kirk show podcast. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
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Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
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Christopher Rufo
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
- [00:33]
Todd Nettleson
I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa.
- [00:43]
Charlie Kirk
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives. And we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here.
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Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble gold investments@noblegoldinvestments.com that is noblegoldinvestments.com it's where I buy all of my gold.
- [01:16]
Go to noblegoldinvestments.com I want to dive right into it. Joining us right off of the top is Senator Mark Wayne Mullen, friend of mine, and we want to get into the news of the day. There's a lot that we need to cover, including Pete Hegseth. Pete Hegseth is a friend of both of ours who's under relentless assault. Even though recruitment is up and procurement is in the right direction and military exercises are up and war games are up and the woke stuff is gone, Pete Hegseth, by all objective outside measurements, is succeeding. And despite that, he is under merciless assault. Senator Mark Wayne Mullen is with us now. Senator, great to see you. Thank you for taking the time. I believe Pete Hegseth is doing a great job. No one liked what happened with the signal gate situation. To blame that all on Pete is outrageous and wrong. In fact, that is a sloppy and very shallow and politically motivated analysis. What's going on with our friend Pete Hegseth? What is the latest and what are your Senate colleagues saying? Senator, thank you.
- [02:14]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
I'll tell you, the Senate Republican GOP is standing solid behind Pete. We understand this is this attack, another character assassination, trying to get rid of a guy because he's daring to, to stat, to challenge status quo. He's made some big changes inside DOD and we know they needed to be made. And so since he's ruffling feathers, he's also made some enemies. And throughout the media and obviously throughout the Democrat Party, I will tell you, our support hasn't changed. My support hasn't changed. Pete is doing exactly what he needs to do. We had a bloated Department of Defense that went yoke woke. Yoke went, went woke. They had started leaning in towards a Democrat party that has lost their, their direction of understanding what lethality is, what mission ready is, and about the war fighter. They became very risk adverse and tried to play politics. You can't win wars and you can't determine our enemies by playing politics. And Pete is restoring the DoD's mission and that hasn't changed. We're going to stand strong with him no matter what type of onslaught and slander the media and the left want to throw at him.
- [03:31]
Charlie Kirk
And I want to just, I want to dive deeper, though. I mean, how are your Senate colleagues thinking about this? It's no surprise that he had a tough confirmation fight and I'm glad he survived it. And thank you for, you know, being a champion of that. Are there murmurs about this on Capitol Hill? How are the Senate, let's just say old bulls, thinking about Pete Hegseth's job right now? And what should our audience be aware of?
- [03:58]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Well, I would, I will tell you, the majority of the GOP is solidly behind him. I will say that we're having, and I don't want to talk about this one person by name, Charlie. I want to be very respectful because we have a meeting Monday afternoon when I get there in his office, but we have one member on, on, on the sas, which is a Senate committee on Armed Services that is trying to ruffle feathers a little bit. He's the same individual we had some problems with, with Pete's confirmation too. So this doesn't come at any surprise, but we feel like there's a way to get around it. One thing that we're trying to keep from happening is actually allowing the Democrats to have a hearing on this, because the hearing wouldn't be for production. It would be for promotion and a production for them to be able to go out and show their base, their fighting and stir up stuff. If it was actually a meeting of substance, we may be up for it, but we're going to work around that. And so out of all 53 senators, even the three that voted against him. They are not saying anything. It's just one individual on the committee that I feel like we can work out some differences of. And we've talked multiple times, so I feel very strong. We're standing with Pete.
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Charlie Kirk
I'm glad to hear that. And look, I completely agree. The last thing we want is some sort of a waste of time hearing where we're not gonna learn anything. But Democrats get to go fundraise off of all of it and get to go on cable television. Nothing fruitful will come out of that. So, speaking of your Senate colleagues, Senator Van Hollen from Maryland just went down to El Salvador. Let's play cut 235 to begin. Let's play cut 235.
- [05:44]
Senator Van Hollen
But you told my colleague Dana Bash yesterday that you did not ask Abrego Garcia whether or not he's actually in Ms. 13. You said you know what his answer is, but how do you know if you did not ask him?
- [05:57]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Well, because I know what he said many times in court, and that's proper forum for debating this.
- [06:05]
Charlie Kirk
So he goes all the way down to El Salvador to try and petition to get a non American from El Salvador to come back to America who obviously is part of Ms. 13. Senator, what's going on here?
- [06:19]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Not just non American. He entered the country illegally. He was. Two judges had already said and already suggested that he should be deported. He had a rap sheet since he's been inside the United States. Keep in mind, his first time to have contact with the police, he had a wad of cash, he had baggies of drugs, and he had cash that had the symbol hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, which is a direct coalition to Ms. 13. So he had ties to him. And so there's no question about it. But here you have Senator Van Hollen who spent taxpayer dollars to fly down to meet with an illegal alien that entered the country illegally, that. That had broke the law since he'd been here, that had ties to a organization. And it's not just us. The court had said this too. He can deny it all he wants, but most criminals deny their crimes anyways. So for. For Van Holland not to look him in the eye and ask a question tells you all you need to know about this radical Democrat party. They don't care. It's not about what's doing right. It's about a message piece. It's about getting promotion. It's about seeing what they can do to have 15 minutes of fame. And that's all that Senator Van Hollen did here. He wasn't trying to solve a problem. He saw an opportunity that he felt like he could get on national TV for. And guess what? He has. But his constituents should see that he's not fighting for the rule of law, he's fighting for himself. So he doesn't get caught up in this same situation that Chuck Schumer's caught up in and could cost him his, his office. You don't have Democrats that are serving for the good of the American people. You have Democrats that are self serving themselves. And that's what's happening inside the Democrat Party right now.
- [08:05]
Charlie Kirk
We're hearing from the Trump White House. We're hearing from Kevin Hassett. Big beautiful bill is coming. I know I've asked you about this for quite some time. Bring us into the room. Bring the audience into the room. From the ability that you are able to share, what is it? What are the negotiations like? Is it a mood of optimism? Is it one of hope that we're going to get this thing done? It's just a matter of ironing out the details.
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Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
So real quick, we're ironing out the details on tax, permanent law versus permanent policy or current policy. We'll get into that. We are very optimistic. We feel like our timeline, it's not set in stone, but our timeline. We would love to be able to deliver this to the president's desk before Memorial Weekend. Now I will tell you that's a tall order because there's details we can get into on some real differences between the House and the Senate and why current policy versus current law and tax policy. It plays a huge pivotal point in this.
- [09:00]
Charlie Kirk
Ask 10 people to define the word capitalism. How many different responses do you think you'll get? This is a word that comes up all the time, but does anyone know what it really means?
- [09:10]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Do you?
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Charlie Kirk
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- [09:59]
So Senator, can we just go let me just kind of go through three things. No tax on tips, no tax on overtime, and then finally the kind of middle class tax cut, no tax on Social Security. Is this a realistic thing that you think we're going to get in the big beautiful bill?
- [10:13]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Well, we can't do. There's some stuff in Social Security we can't get to. So there's some of the no tax on tips, no tax on overtime and no tax on Social Security that may not fit within the bird rule. We're going through that process. Either way. We're still going to bring it back in a separate package because the president said he wants that. American people said they wanted that. So we're going to try getting it done. If we can do it in reconciliation, that's great. Now, and this is the way I describe the bird rule. The House doesn't have to deal with the bird rule. We do. So what the budget did is it instructed the, the Senate more than instructed the House on what can and can't go into the bill. Remember, you only get one shot at if you get the bill and you send it up and it's, it's, it, it, it's against the bird rule, you got to scrap the bill, redo the whole thing all over again. So we have to work with the parliamentarian moving forward. The best way to describe is the House can put it in there. The House can put whatever they want into a bill, but that's kind of considering. The House can walk into a warehouse through the open, you know, a dock door and once they get in, they have to close it and then the Senate has to knock the glass out of the top part of it and try to squeeze everything into the bird rule. So we don't know if it can get in there or not. We feel we've got a bill that addresses it, that tries to make it in. But it's, it's, it's remember, it's an appropriation bill so some of the stuff with Social Security can't be touched in it.
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Charlie Kirk
Got it. So just one, one last question on this spending cuts and then I do want to get to the Milwaukee judge just one minute on spending cuts, what can we expect? Because tax cuts are wonderful, but if we do not have equal if not greater spending cuts, then we're just going to keep on driving up the deficit. Are your colleagues thinking in this way?
- [11:51]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Yeah. So there's two ways. Absolutely. Our target is $1.5 trillion. That's our target of cuts, 1.5 trillion. I feel like we can hit that. But it's hard once you really get in there because, you know, everybody's got great ideas. But when you actually put the concept down on how it's going to be delivered, it's tough. Now through rescission, not through reconciliation, we may be able to get even more cuts through rescission. So basically rescission and reconciliation runs together. Right? We're doing all in fact, we're doing rescission, we're doing reconciliation, we're doing budget rescission basically in Elon and I had a conversation about this yesterday that anything that isn't appropriated by Congress, meaning that this like usaid, who that wasn't reauthorized by Congress and we didn't directly appropriate dollars for those programs they were doing, they can be rescinded. And when they're rescinded now, they can also be taken away. And President not chooses not to spend it. But when you rescind it and he sends it to the to Congress as a rescission package, if Congress votes on it to rescind it, then the next president can't come up and just restart the program. So rescission makes this stuff permanent. So we're working really close with Doge and Elon to get this done. Then reconciliation, we can go back in farther and make cuts to the agencies themselves, which is where we're going to be targeting 1.5 trillion. And really, I'm telling you that's our target. We may be able to do more than that. I don't want to give people false hope, but when we really start putting the pen and pen and paper together, that's our target, 1.5 trillion. And then we're going to slowly get our house back in order. What we're really trying to do is get back as and I think Ron Johnson has said this the best we'd really like to get to 2019 spending levels pre Covid and that way we can actually have a true path to balance the budget. And the president has said made it very clear he wants a balance of budget why he's in office and and we want to deliver that for him. But keep in mind we probably need to try doing that. If we can't do it in FY26, we're going to definitely have to do it by FY28 because God forbid something happens in the midterm and we were to lose one of the chambers. No way the Democrat party is going to let us balance a budget.
- [14:02]
Charlie Kirk
No, they're going to be uninterested in that. You're caught up to speed now on the arrest of Judge Hannah Dugan out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Charges of obstruction. What's going on here?
- [14:12]
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen
Well, I'm glad that Cash made this public because he's been taking on a little heat from, from our, from our base. Ashley, Cash and Pam both want to know what are they doing? They need to get started. This just shows you that they do a lot of stuff behind closed doors and they can't do it in public, but they're acting fast on it. I mean this is just a case that actually developed a week ago that Cash was able to put the information together and arrest a judge for obstruction of justice for literally running blocker for an illegal immigrant so he could try getting away and they had to chase him down by foot. Cash and Pam are working every day to get this woke political motivated bench and literally and start holding them accountable. But it is, it's difficult and I hope our base will realize you're going to see stories like this trickle out. But just because you're not seeing them out there every day, most cases are talking about, they can't talk about and telled afterward.
- [15:10]
Charlie Kirk
Senator, thank you so much. Keep fighting hard. Come back soon. Have a great weekend. Thank you.
- [15:16]
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- [15:29]
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- [16:17]
Joining us now is Christopher Ruffo, senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Christopher, great to see you. Thank you for taking the time today. You have a major story here that I know that you've been focusing on. Tell our audience about the disparate impact study that you have been on and what that actually means in practice. Christopher Rufo, the floor is yours.
- [16:40]
Christopher Rufo
Well, right now we are doing a series of investigations into the Ivy League universities, beginning with Princeton. And the president of Princeton is a man named Christopher Eisgruber, who a couple years ago said that Princeton was systemically racist. And he was right, but not in the way that he imagined. From the documents that we've obtained, the faculty that we've interviewed, we found that he has built a system of discrimination against whites, Asians and Jews, especially men from those different racial categories that are in total violation of the Civil Rights act of 1964 and the 14th Amendment. And so these documents from our report have now rocketed around the Department of Justice. And I think what's going to happen with these Ivy League universities is that they're going to be caught doing something illegal. But for the first time ever, because the Trump administration is taking up these issues in a real way, they're actually going to pay an enormous price. And that's what we're seeing not just at Princeton, but really almost everywhere in higher education.
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Charlie Kirk
So let's go deeper into that. Is it really a true quote, that quote, quote, don't hire white men unless absolutely necessary? Is that a real quote out of Princeton University?
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Christopher Rufo
That is a real quote. And it's not just a singular incident. You know, my sources on the faculty at Princeton have said there is a kind of spoken and unspoken assumption in hiring that you have to do everything you can to avoid hiring white men in particular. And a professor was told explicitly, you cannot hire this person because he's a white man. This professor went to the department chair, who happens to be Jewish, and said, hey, this is what we did at Princeton to Jews 70, 80 years ago. It's discrimination and it's wrong. And this department chair responded simply, this is what we have to do. This is the kind of rot inside academia that has been festering for a long time. It's finally coming to the surface. And I know that Harmeet Dhillon, who's at the Department of Justice Civil Rights as the deputy secretary, you know, she's taking a close look at these policies. And she is a very good and very tough lawyer, as you know, and I don't think she's going to pull any punches.
- [19:02]
Charlie Kirk
So all this has come to a head, obviously, with Harvard and President Trump signing executive orders. You did mention something with Princeton. They are in blatant violation of federal law. And Harvard, by the way, has been ignoring, just flatly ignoring federal law, saying that, oh, yeah, okay, fine, the Supreme Court ruled this. We don't really care what penalties, what realistic penalties can the Trump administration usher and issue when these colleges are actively discriminating against white people. And I just want the audience to imagine, imagine if Princeton University was caught saying, don't hire black men unless absolutely necessary. I mean, it would be the number one news story on the planet for three months straight, and there would have to be marches and all that. But it's actually perfectly okay at Princeton to say, don't hire white men unless absolutely necessary. What can we do to actually hold these universities and penalize them for this?
- [19:57]
Christopher Rufo
Well, we face a really critical question about our Constitution and our law. Does the law apply to all groups equally, or does the law apply to certain groups but not other groups? My contention is that we can only have a great country if the law applies to everyone equally. And so we should approach this with just as much urgency as President Eisenhower approached it in the 1950s and President Kennedy approached it in the 1960s. I think we have three basic remedies. The first remedy is what the President has already put on the table. Stripping federal funds from these institutions which are in violation of federal law. The second remedy is what's called a consent decree, which has been used by the left on police departments and other institutions, which basically means you put these universities under the control of a legal process and a federal judge who will oversee the administration from the inside to ensure that they're not discriminating. And then there's the third option that was used by Eisenhower and Kennedy, which is to send in federal troops, to send in the 101st Airborne to force these universities to desegregate, to stop discriminating and stop scapegoating. That's, of course, an ultimate option. I don't think we're there yet, but we should absolutely keep that kind of dramatic intervention on the table, help our.
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Charlie Kirk
Audience understand just how big of a deal it is. The executive order that President Trump signed on disparate impact, and how disparate impact has been used for admission standards, for remedial standards, disciplinary action, for even algebra. What is disparate impact and what is the enormity of President Trump and his executive order that he signed the other day.
- [21:41]
Christopher Rufo
Yeah, it's a historic move. And I'll explain disparate impact in pretty simple terms. When most Americans think about discrimination, they think about someone who says, you know, I don't like people from this certain group. We're not going to give them an opportunity. We're going to deny them and please employment or benefits or access to a public space. Disparate impact says the intention to discriminate doesn't matter. The action of deliberate discrimination against a group doesn't matter. All that matters is if there is a disparate or disproportionate number of people of one group, that is de facto racism. That is de facto discrimination. And so this, of course, again, only applies one way. If you don't have enough African Americans at Harvard, it means that you have to provide a racial quota or a kind of positive discrimination as a remedy. But it doesn't apply to, for example, the NBA. We could say there are not enough Asian and Jewish players in the NBA, which under disparate impact theory means the NBA is discriminating against Asians and Jews. But that really just reveals the absurdity of the whole concept. The NBA is hyper competitive, hyper meritocratic. It just so happens that certain groups are not as or not as dedicated or not as talented in basketball than other groups. And so what the President is saying is we're going to go back to actual, real, substantial discrimination as the test. We can't use statistical pseudoscience. And we also can't assume that there will be an equal distribution by race in every, every category. You know, for example, something as silly as, you know, Korean Americans own a disproportionate number of dry cleaners. I'm okay with that. That's completely fine. And now the President is saying we can't take these absurd standards and make them into law.
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Charlie Kirk
So, and all of this in combination, critical race theory, affirmative action, disparate impact, all that together has done what to education in this country, Christopher? And what can we see now that we are removing these burdens on our education system and businesses? What can we expect now? How big of a deal is this for prosperity and the pursuit of excellence?
- [23:59]
Christopher Rufo
Well, it's just the first step. And so it's beyond question that these left wing racialist ideologies have compromised academic institutions, They've really degraded race relations in the United States, and they've turned many K12 schools into these kind of ideological training grounds. These executive orders are the beginning of reversing that process and moving America towards the standard of colorblind equality under which everyone is treated equally as an individual and not rewarded or punished based on their ancestry. That vision of America is extraordinarily popular. That is a vision of America that most everyday Americans support. And so what has to happen next to make that a reality is that the administration has to keep pressing forward on these policies to change the culture within these institutions, and then to take people like President Christopher is Gruber of Princeton, put him on the stand, punish him publicly and severely for the racial discrimination that he has perpetuated at his university, and really turn his reputation so negative that anyone else in that position will immediately say, I better get my act together and stop discriminating, even if my predecessors have done so in the past.
- [25:23]
Charlie Kirk
On top of that, President Trump is now disassembling the Department of Education, and he is sending it back to the states. I'm so hopeful that we finally have a president, we finally have an administration who's making education a top priority From K through 12, mobility from going after Harvard. Are you a little concerned, though, Christopher, and we'll pick this up after the break, that the weakest spot of these universities might not actually be the anti Semitism critiques, which are legitimate, of course, but actually the violations of the Civil Rights act and the 14th amendment. What is your take on that strategically?
- [25:59]
Christopher Rufo
Christopher well, look, here's what we have to do. You know, I've had a lot of conversations with American Jews and friends who are very concerned about anti Semitism. But what I've been recommending to them as the most successful strategy is not to say American Jews need speech protections, American Jews need dei, specifically on anti Semitism. But actually American Jews can tap into something much higher and much more powerful, this principle of universal standards. To say every group needs protection from violence on campus, every group needs protected speech. Every group needs to be treated equally and not rewarded or punished based on their racial, ethnic or religious background. That is the winning argument. And we have to see antisemitism as really just the smallest nesting doll into this fervent, anti Semitic, anti white and anti American hatred. Bring that all together. Bring it into a unifying vision that can protect not just American Jews, but people of all backgrounds.
- [27:07]
Charlie Kirk
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- [27:54]
So places like Harvard.
- [27:56]
Christopher, are the trendy targets. But most people don't go to the ivies. What are the schools that we should focus on to really send a message that would improve the places that people actually want to go to? Christopher RUFO well, I think you have.
- [28:09]
Christopher Rufo
To start at the top and then work your way downward. You know, universities are driven to a large part by social status. And so if you can change the social status at the Ivy League universities, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, most notably, and then you could start changing the social status at the flagship state universities, Berkeley, Michigan, Texas, et cetera, you're going to send a very strong message downward that it is no longer safe, it is no longer high status, it is no longer even possible to have discriminatory DEI programs or to, you know, have this really, you know, anti semitic, anti white, anti American, and often anti Asian sentiments and policies on campus. I think that's what you have to do because we need to turn this into a cultural movement, not just a legal campaign. And that's really what we're fighting for. And we have to ground it again in this principle of colorblind equality, treating everyone equally as an individual. That's the frame that we have to deploy and that is both the sword and the shield we have to use to defeat the left. And the left's really dismal ideology of judging people on the basis of race.
- [29:26]
Charlie Kirk
And they do this all in the spirit of allegedly getting rid of racism. They want to judge people based on race. And they say that we are trying to fight racism. You look at these executive orders combined. Getting rid of the affirmative action and hiring, getting rid of dei, getting rid of critical race theory being taught in our schools. A lot of this is going to be debated within the courts. Christopher, are you optimistic that ultimately the Supreme Court will rule in favor of these very courageous executive orders from President Trump?
- [29:56]
Christopher Rufo
Yeah, absolutely. I think all of these orders, you know, a lot of these policies were established by executive orders from Lyndon Johnson to Barack Obama. To Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. And so he has absolute authority to rescind those executive orders and to turn the government in a new direction. That's the basic nature of his article. Two powers under the Constitution. But the real tricky part, and where this is going to get tough, not only for these issues related to racial discrimination, but also for permanently dissolving the Department of Education. The president needs Congress to act. And judging by the last 97 days or in change, the president is much bolder, much more decisive, and much more comfortable with risk taking than the Republicans in Congress. He's got to get Republicans to take some of these incredible executive orders and actually pass them through the legislature so that they can survive further into the future. And they could still be the law, even if power changes in four or hopefully 12 years.
- [31:05]
Charlie Kirk
Codification is key. Christopher, please plug anything you want our audience to be aware of, please. We want to support you.
- [31:13]
Christopher Rufo
Absolutely. Yeah. Just follow me on Twitter ealchrisruffo. Sign up for my substack@christopherrufo.com and keep fighting. Charlie, you're doing incredible work. You're really tremendous leader on all these issues and we're all grateful for it.
- [31:27]
Charlie Kirk
Thank you, Christopher. Keep up. Keep it up. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. Thank you. Email us freedom charliekirk.com look, we have a once in a generation opportunity right now to get back to the roots of the intent of what made America such a spectacular place. We have allowed so much of this nonsense and this garbage to infect every major institution. Really is a cleanse. It is a reset. It is a, it is a start. It is starting from square one when you realize how much of our country is being held back by affirmative action, being held back by dei, being held back by the legal theory of disparate impact and how corrupt these elite institutions have become. And it is incumbent on all of us, including President Trump, to keep the pressure on. You notice that this hasn't actually received that much news coverage. They are more worried about Abrego Garcia than they are about affirmative action. It's very interesting, isn't it? What is it about Abrego Garcia? Well, they actually know that affirmative action is a major losing argument for them. When affirmative action is presented to the American community, they say, wait a second, you get extra points if you're of a black skin color and you get less points if you're white skin color. That's exactly what affirmative action is. President Trump is fighting forward in a colorblind, in a merit based in a character based agenda, not one that is rooted in tribalism or racial preferences. We believe in an America agenda. God Bless President Trump for fighting for that every day. Thanks so much for listening everybody. Email us. As always, freedomarlicirk.com thanks so much for listening and God bless.
- [33:17]
Todd Nettleson
For more on many of these stories and news you can Trust, go to charliekirk.com.