D (1:43)

You know, Fox came to me because they were starting this book label and said, we're thinking about doing something in this space about women and the Bible. Would you be interested in? I didn't hesitate. I thought, what a gift. This is such a wonderful opportunity to tell the stories of these women. People who may not be people of faith or pick up the Bible. I still think they'll be fascinated by these stories. And if you know them as I thought I did, I learned so much in researching and writing the book. So I just thought for people who think that women are sort of secondary in the Bible, they don't have a starring role, they don't know these stories. And so to me, just super exciting to be able to share them with a New audience.

B (2:20)

I love that. And one of the talking points that more secular culture uses is that the Bible is just for reinforcing a patriarchy. So I'm super thrilled to be able to discuss this with you about how women of the Bible played not just an important role, but a decisive role. So let's get into some of the specifics. Queen Esther, the Book of Esther, one of my favorite books of the Bible. It's the only book in the Bible where Adonai or Hashem or God is not specifically said, but his hand is present all throughout. Present throughout that story. Tell us about Esther and why you chose her in the Bible. In the book about. From the Bible.

D (3:00)

I love her story too, Charlie. It's just one of those ones that if you grow up at church at all or in synagogue, you're going to hear the story of Queen Esther. It's an amazing story of how she was an orphan. She started out with just an uncle, raising her very modest means, and she rises through the ranks. And this is one of those stories that when I went back to see study it for this book, I learned so much and was reminded of so many incredible facts and divine intervention along the way, where she ends up being the most unlikely thing, which is a Jewish woman, essentially displays the Jews were all over the place at this point, not with their own homeland. And she ends up being the queen of Persia. And there's this evil guy, Haman, who is part of the administration who's plotting against the Jewish people to completely wipe them out. And she's in this place now, where Mordecai, her uncle who raised her, who has told her not to divulge her Jewish background, now says, it's up to you. God has placed you for such a time as this in this kingdom. You're going to have to go to the king. Well, in those days, to go to the king without him asking for you, you could be killed on the spot. And she said to Mordecai, have all of the people fast for three days. And at the end of those three days, if I perish, I perish. She goes to him. God has favor. The king has favor on her. And through so many twists and turns, she is able to save the entire Jewish people, the Jewish nation. So she was placed there at the divine moment that God had created, clearly scripted her story to end up there. But she had to find the courage to go forward and risk her life for her people. And she did.

B (4:26)

It's awesome. And so you also have other stories of lesser known Women of the Bible, which I think will really interest our listeners. And I just want to repeat the title. It's the Women of the Bible Speak. So everyone go get your copy. And so let's talk about some of these others. Judges like Deborah or warriors. I think I'm going to say this. Jael or Jael? Jael. And prophets like Miriam. Tell us about some of these lesser known women of the Bible.

D (4:57)

Yeah, Deborah's story I love so much because she was a judge, she was leading the people. And Israel was in this cycle that they often get in, that we sometimes do too, where we forget God's faithfulness. They wandered away from him, and now they are begging for help. Well, Deborah was the woman leading this entire nation. They came to her to settle disputes, those kinds of things, and she was revered and very well respected. So. So God tells her, hey, I want you to get the people together and go into battle against the Canaanites who'd been oppressing them, who had, you know, just way more everything that you would need in the way of manpower and chariots and all the things the Israelites didn't have. And she went and called her top general, Barak was his name, and said, all right, God is telling us we need to go into battle against the Canaanites. He's probably looking at this on paper as most people would like. This doesn't seem like a great idea, at least by earthly standards. And he says, I'll go and do it if you come with me. Because he knows she's anointed. And she's like, okay, I'll do it. But because of your hesitance, God is going to deliver the opposing general into the hands of a woman. And as a younger person, I remember hearing this story and thinking it was Deborah, but it's not. It's the second character, Yael or Jael, some pronounce it. And she ends up being the one who captures and murders the opposing general. The Israelites completely, completely route the Canaanites. It's not even close. And it's just an amazing story of these women who are warriors and fighters and don't question God, even though it seems like the task he's giving seems impossible. Deborah just trusted him blindly and said, I believe if God has sent us, there is purpose. And I'm going. And they had this enormous victory. Miriam was a prophetess as well. She's known as the sister of Moses. And she is critical in leading the Israelites on the Exodus and eventually their journey towards the promised land. And with all These women, we see that they are flawed, they're not perfect. I love the Bible doesn't sanitize them because I think it makes it more relatable for the rest of us to say where they mess up. They make their own decisions and they get off track. God can still work through all of those messes, and he does in all of these stories.

B (6:56)

I love that. And so in writing this book and reflecting on the 16 stories and the 16 women of the Bible, where were you able to kind of see what's happening today with young women in America and derive some wisdom from that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because we have our Young Women's Leadership Summit at Turney Point, usa, and young women right now, some of which they feel confused, especially young Christian women. Can you connect some of the things that you learned or discovered in the process of this book that might be applicable to young women in America today?

D (7:32)

Yeah. What I found is these stories are timeless. They're universal issues that women had back then we still very much have today. Feeling sometimes like an outsider, feeling forgotten, like God is not hearing your prayers or you are searching for your purpose. And some of the more weighty problems of infertility and widowhood, family squabbles. We all have complicated family relationships from time to time. But seeing these women, some of them very humble, and you may not hear a lot about Hannah. She didn't come from a big prominent family, but the desire of her heart was to be a mother. And we see for years her longing and her praying and going to God. Like, see me, see my sorrow and please hear me. We see outsiders like Ruth and Tama, who Tamar is one who really, really got off track and made a mess of her situation. But she ends up in the lineage of Christ. And God is redeeming every decision, good and bad, for his purposes. And so I think as a young woman, I remember feeling like, what is going to be my place in the world? What's my purpose? I have these desires and longing in my heart. And I know that the Word tells me that if my desires line up with God's, he will grant me the desires of my heart. There's waiting, there's learning, patience and watching for God's hand. I think in all of these stories and so many things that transl to today that I hope will be encouraging to women of all ages, but certainly young women, because I remember that coming out of Liberty, my undergrad, and thinking, gosh, there is so much I want to do in the world, but how do I get started? And, you know, having roadblocks along the way in your career and in your personal life, things not always going according to your plans. But now I have the hindsight and the blessing of looking back to see God's hand in all of it. I think you'll see that in these stories from the Bible too.

A (9:14)

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B (10:17)

so can you talk? Just expand upon your personal journey and story because so many young women, you know, that we, that we talk to and that we have at Turning Point USA and also listen to our podcast, they're inundated with this kind of new feminism. And it's not, I don't think it's healthy for our country, which is almost more about attacking men than lifting up women. Can you talk about that just from your experience and also use some of the kind of biblical wisdom that you've been able to do such a great job of articulating in this book?

D (10:49)

Well, I feel like God has created men and women in his image. We are all equal in his sight and we all have roles to play. He gives us strengths and weaknesses. And I think something that's so encouraging to me is to stop and have that reset. Sometimes the Lord tells, or the world tells us about what is important or how to be Popular how to get more likes on social media. We are children of the King. We are daughters of the King. He loves us. We are precious to him and nothing and no one can rattle or shake that or take that away from us. And I find great joy in finding the path. Yes, for me it is a different one than he has for my husband. And thank God that we are two different people and that we fit together and he's able to be strong where I am weak in some certain things. And we bust up a lot of stereotypes in our marriage. I mean, I am much a career driven person and we've navigated things a little bit differently, but we feel like God calls each of us to our own specific roles and our paths and don't feel like you have to have a cookie cutter path to anything that you do. I talked in my first book about the fact that we don't have children and that was a choice. And a lot of people don't understand that. It was hard for me as a Christian woman to have conversations about that, to articulate that. But I feel like God calls us to all kinds of different things and different plans and purposes. And there is joy in that. And don't let the world tell you that you are unimportant or that what you believe is wrong, or you know, that you need to be silent about things that are your deep faith convictions. I think that there should be room for all of that. But again, Christ told us you are going to have trouble in the world. Our lives aren't guaranteed to be easy, but what we are guaranteed is that he is walking through it with us. And I have seen that in my darkest moments professionally, from getting fired from my first TV job or the guy who told me I was the worst person he never seen on tv. And I'd never make it to going through my husband having a brain tumor, to finding out that I've got a chronic incurable genetic disease that I've got to manage. I mean, life will throw you all kinds of curveballs. But again, God has been faithful in every bit of it and he has found to show us a way through it with his. With his strength and his grace, which I lean on every single day.

B (13:00)

I love that talk about that more. People love to hear about stories of individuals that have had a lot of success. And I've always been struck at how you are unapologetic about your faith and that you're able to lead with grace and have such, you know, really live out the spirit. You could see that the Spirit lives in you and in your work. There's a lot of. There's people that listen to our podcasts that are not believers. Talk even more about your experience with, you know, Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. We do talk about that a lot on our program, but we also have people that, you know, tune in for the politics and they're still searching for that. Help us through your journey and continue to expand on that.

D (13:41)

I grew up in a broken home. My parents divorced when I was really young, but they both already had the seeds of faith and in their own lives grew much stronger through the years. And both came to faith. And my mom had me in church every time the doors were open. She was a teacher at a Christian school. She got a job there. And that just put fuel on the fire of both of us. Our faith, our church, was our community and our home. It was the support for us when it was just a single mom and a young daughter. And so it really is family to me in a much broader sense. I came to realize after being exposed to faith my whole life in my middle school years, like, wait a minute, this has to be actually a personal relationship. I have to say, Christ, I accept what you did for me. In this Easter week, we commemorate him going to the cross as a sinless sacrifice for the rest of us. So I made that personal commitment and acceptance then, and I have been a work in progress ever since. To me, my faith gives me the greatest strength in the worst times, like this pandemic year, which has been a season of loss for so many people, professionally, personally, losing people that you love. Maybe your own health has been at stake financially, your kids out of school, worrying about how they are going to catch up. There is just so much anxiety and pressure. But for me, this year has been one of really rerouting again into my faith. It reminded me that I got to start every day before I turn on the phone and start looking at my emails or social media or anything else. I spend time in the Word and in prayer and journaling because I know I need it. I know it is the strength that I need. And for me, it gives me great comfort in a time that is so unsteady in the world. And, you know, listen, the pandemic was a wake up call for me. I've always been a person of faith, but I realized how comfortable I've gotten in so many parts of my life that weren't rooted in Christ. So for me is a great source of strength and I find great comfort there. And I and I hope other people will as well.

B (15:33)

That's terrific. It's awesome. And so we're doing this in Holy Week. And so the book is very, very timely. Let's talk about one of those stories which of course is the faith of Mary and so of Mary Magdalene or the mother of Mary. I'm not sure if you talk about both of them or not. Walk us through that. And how the women around Jesus were pretty remarkable.

D (15:58)

Yeah. And we actually talk in the book about why there's so many Marys and why that name was so popular at that time. And we try to list them out so people will understand which Mary we're talking about, at which time we do include Mary, the mother of Jesus. And I've always been most familiar with the beginning of her story where we see the angel come to her and she's like, wow, you've got this divine assignment here on earth to give birth to the Savior in human form and just her faithfulness in that and what a blessing she was and being chosen to be this woman. But in the book we go a little bit further. We show her as a mother to Jesus, his earthly mother, his part, her part in his ministry. And how she's there through the end in the crucifixion, which I cannot imagine any mother having to go through witnessing their child be falsely accused and beaten and killed. And she is faithful to the end. She is there at the foot the of the cross. But not only that, she's there in the upper room praying with the disciples. She is the earliest part of the church coming together as we know it. So I have always thought about 15 year old Mary as I guess you know, somewhere her age would be. But to see her life through as a mature woman and the fact that she was there faithfully to the end, I think was just a very meaningful journey to me to watch her all the way through. And we have Mary Magdalene also, who was a woman who was part of Jesus ministry. We see in the New Testament these women were equals. It wasn't normal that women would be studying at the foot of an exalted rabbi or teacher. But they were part of Jesus inner circle. He loved them, they were friends. And Mary Magdalene was one of those. And we see her going in deep grief to the tomb on that first Easter Sunday and realizing his body is gone. She's so overcome in grief, she's crying, just saying, just all I want to know is where his body is. She thinks she's talking to the gardener and Jesus says, Mary, he just says her name and immediately the joy and the discovery that he is resurrected, that he's alive. She runs off with the news and essentially she's the first evangelist. Charlie.

B (17:55)

And what's so amazing about that story, and I'm not sure if you touch on this in the book, is that if they were making it up, who would on earth want to have women witnesses? Can you talk about that? The context that actually reinforces the veracity of the resurrection.

D (18:12)

Yeah. In those days, women wouldn't have been considered great witnesses or exalted witnesses in legal disputes and that kind of thing. It's. You would not favor to put a woman on the stand. The men would be the one who would be trusted and valued as legal witnesses. So for the men who wrote the Bible inspired by God and putting this together, if they wanted to make their airtight case, I don't think they would have used women as the ones to be the witness to the resurrection. They would have wanted to pin that on one of the decisions disciples or one of the man somewhere in the story. So the fact that they actually include women as the first witness and the first one to run and tell about Christ and have that discovery to me is really powerful. And the fact that Jesus upended so many norms about how women were valued or treated in those days is a beautiful thing. We actually, I decided to do a closing chapter, Jesus and the women, because there were so many other women we wanted to include just to see how Christ interacted with them. They were valued, they were believed, they were cherished and respected and, and I think that's a very important part of this book too.

A (19:14)

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B (20:54)

So, Shannon, can you help for some people that are not yet believers? We touched on this a little bit, but there are stereotypes about the Christian faith.

A (21:01)

And I'm sure you get asked about

B (21:02)

all of this in the New Testament. There are some scriptures that say that they're misinterpreted, that women should not speak at church or things of that nature without taking any theological positions. You can, if you'd like, can you talk about how these are general misrepresentations of Christianity because there's a stereotype that certain people have or a belief wrongly, that women are looked down upon and not taken seriously in the Christian faith?

D (21:30)

Yeah, And I think that that last chapter in the book bust that myth wide open by the way, that Jesus related to women, included them, revealed himself to them. We think about Mary Magdalene, the day of the Resurrection in the garden tomb area. But I think too about the Samaritan woman. At this time, the Jews and the Samaritans were not friendly at all. Jewish people would travel way out of the way so they wouldn't have to go through Samaria and interact with them. And yet Christ went there knowing he would interact with this Samaritan woman at the well who was living a life of shame. She was there in the heat of the day because she wouldn't travel with the other women. I mean, she was had been married five times, was living with a man who wasn't her husband. Jesus doesn't, you know, hit her over the head with that. He does not judge her. He has a conversation with her and reveals himself to her as the Messiah, again revealing himself to a woman who can then go and tell. So they clearly women are valued. Here we see the leadership in the Old Testament of Deborah and others. There are women who are deacons, who are part of Jesus ministry in the New Testament as well. And to me, some of the most powerful Bible teachers I know are women. They are gifted of God. There is no mistake about that. And people can debate about leadership, about whether women should be pastors and leading church or not. And that's an ongoing debate and conversation. I think that God gives women to do very specific things. And I've been blessed and I've been grown spiritually by the women who are great Bible teachers and study leaders and people that I've heard speak over the ages. And I think there's this misconception too about the idea of submission of a Christian wife. And my husband and I have worked through all of those things. We both are believers and believe that our marriage is consecrated to God and is guided through his leadership and through his guidance. We respect each other as equals. We don't say, you know, it should be 50, 50, it should be 100, 100, both sides giving 100%. And we respect each other's decision making skills. There's only one time in 25 years of marriage that we got to a complete impasse on a decision. It was about a job and about somewhere that we were going to move. And it was the one time in 25 years that I've said I don't agree and I'm frustrated with this decision, but I think you as the leader of our family and the head of our household, will have to make the final call.

A (23:46)

And.

D (23:46)

And it wasn't easy, but I knew it was the right thing and it turned out to be the best thing for us. Because in that there's also responsibility with men and having to make those difficult decisions and being answerable to God. It's not like men are just going around barking orders and women are subservient wives. I mean, that's never been my experience personally, and it's certainly not what I believe the Bible represents or models to us about marriage.

B (24:09)

That is a really important point because that is a false impression that many people in the secular world think that that's what the Bible articulates or what it argues for. So I think that's a really important thing. I was going to ask you about the submit to your husbands because that is frequently used by some of the secular feminist groups as a reason not to become a Christian. And so, Shannon, I want to kind of close on a couple ideas. You have an amazingly successful career. You're able to bring your faith into your career, into Companies that are not churches but still are obviously willing to publish books like this. Can you talk about the need for people in their work to talk about their faith? And what's your experience about that been? Were you a little bit more shy

A (25:00)

with your faith early on in your career?

B (25:02)

Have you become more bold, or has it just been, you know, outspoken all throughout your career?

D (25:07)

I think people who work with me and have known me everywhere I've worked, they clearly know that, whether they don't know what to call it, a person of faith or religious or churchgoing person, that's always been front and center for me. I also think it's really important to build a relationship with people. I think, like I talked about Jesus with the Samaritan woman. I don't think you show up and start spouting Bible verses and telling people what they're doing wrong and beating them over the head with that. That's not how we saw Christ operate. He never excused sin, but he never condemned the person. I think about the woman who was caught in adultery that was going to be stoned. And he talked these men through this and said, you know, you without sin cast the first stone. And they all sort of slunk away. It wasn't like a mass exodus. They quietly put down their stones and took off. We're all sinners saved by grace. And you know, what Christ said to that woman was, they don't condemn you, neither do I condemn you, but go and sin no more. So I think it's about saying to people that I see you as a human being. I'm going to take the time to build a relationship and care about you. And if you have questions of faith, I have people come to me and say, I am having this crisis or someone sick, and I don't know how it works, but I know you pray. Will you pray for me or pray for this person? And I feel blessed that I'm able to do that. And, you know, over the last year, probably have been even more outspoken about my faith because people seemed very much like they were searching. I love to post Bible verses or things from a devotional I'm reading. And just the feedback from people the last year is I think they're very much hurting and they're searching, and they are very much comforted by Scripture and drawn to it. And I hope that they will be. And I hope that I will be genuine in sharing with people and seeing them as Christ does, as people in his image.

B (26:51)

So I asked this question out of Christians, and you can answer it.

A (26:54)

However, you want.

B (26:55)

But every Christian has moments where doubt might not be the right word, but you're less enthusiastic than others. I don't know if you've had this experience or not.

A (27:04)

And if you have, how are you

B (27:05)

able to stop the backslide and get back into. Into gear?

D (27:10)

I think for sure everybody has that at some point in their Christian journey. I'm really impressed if you, if you haven't. And I'm not saying people can't just be so imbued with their faith that they never have those doubts. But honestly, one of the times I did was in college. I think that's a time that you're searching. I had grown up in a Christian home, so I was saturated in it all the time. And even going off to Liberty University, which, as you well know, is a fantastic Christian place to get your education and with wonderful professors and I've made lifelong friends. I found my husband there. But there were times even there that I said, okay, I've heard this and believed this and been involved with this my whole life. But what does it really mean? What do these scriptures really mean? Is there really a God? Do I just believe this because I was born into this home that had a Christian faith. And it was a great place to probe all of those things, to ask questions about what archaeologists tell us, what history tells us. Ultimately, though, it is a question of faith. And I had to really seek God's face. And I think he wants us to question and have a genuine faith that is rooted in Him. But it does take a leap of faith. And to me, whether you are going to have a faith in something secular to save you or be the basis of your life, that is a leap of faith as well. For me, God has shown up in my darkest, toughest circumstances, and I know that he is faithful. I have seen. Seen his hand at work in my life. Not that I've never asked questions, but he's continued to be faithful through that.

B (28:34)

Well, amen to that. And there's a lot of wisdom in that answer. So I hope people go back and listen to that again. The book is the Women of the Bible. I want to make sure I get the title exactly right. But Shannon, is there anything in particular that we didn't cover that you wanted to touch on in regards to your book or what your any upcoming events you might be doing or things that, you know, promotional around it?

D (29:02)

Yeah, you can get it at foxnews.com books or Amazon, any place that you'd like. One little nugget is that we did include study questions. I love study questions and I hope that it takes the reader from these wonderful, amazing stories that need nothing added to them because they are page turners from the pages of the Bible. But it gives you a little bit more personalization or maybe how these things can apply to your own life. You can do them alone or I've had people say to me, oh, we've ordered several copies so we can do it as a Bible study over zoom or however. And I love to hear that because I always learn from here from other people as they study too. But I hope it'll take things the next step from just like a super interesting, exciting, encouraging story to how it can actually benefit you in your own life through those questions.

B (29:44)

Awesome. It's the Women of the Bible Speak author Shannon Bream. And Shannon does a phenomenal job on fox. I love being able to come on there. And Shannon, it's awesome what you're doing and thank you for your commitment to our Creator and to the kingdom. And so everyone go check out the book and I hope to have you on again soon. Shannon, thank you.

D (30:04)

Thank you, Charlie and I look forward to turning back to have you in the hot seat next time.

B (30:09)

Exactly.

D (30:09)

Thanks for having me.

B (30:10)

Thanks. You bet. Shannon, talk to you soon.

A (30:14)

Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us your questions freedomarliekirk.com if you want to get involved with Turning Point USA, go to tpusa.com thanks so much for listening, everybody. God bless.

D (30:27)

For more on many of these stories and news you can Trust, go to charliekirk.com.