The Charlie Kirk Show

Episode Summary: "Timeless Wisdom from Thomas Sowell with Biographer Jason Riley"

Date: May 26, 2021
Guest: Jason Riley, author of "Maverick: A Biography of Thomas Sowell"

Episode Overview

In this episode, Charlie Kirk hosts journalist and author Jason Riley to discuss Riley's new biography of economist and social theorist Thomas Sowell. The conversation delves into Sowell’s life, ideas, and profound impact on American intellectual and social discourse, particularly in the areas of economics, race, and culture. With a focus on bringing Sowell’s underappreciated wisdom to younger audiences, Kirk and Riley explore why Sowell’s ideas have often been marginalized and why his work remains more relevant than ever.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Thomas Sowell Matters

[02:50–05:32]

• Riley explains his motivation for writing the first biography of Thomas Sowell and argues that Sowell’s status as a "straight shooter" in academia sets him apart.
  • "It's basically by being an honest intellectual, a straight shooter... He is not concerned with whether [the facts] lead to inconvenient conclusions, unpopular conclusions, politically incorrect conclusions." — Jason Riley, [05:32]
• Sowell's influence on Riley's own intellectual development is highlighted, as well as Sowell’s role in shaping debate on affirmative action and social policy.

Sowell’s Empirical Approach and Influence

[05:32–08:18]

• Sowell is lauded for his empirical, fact-based approach, especially when addressing politically sensitive topics like race and affirmative action.
  • "Thomas Sowell was sort of canceled before it was cool. He was someone that the left went after a very long time ago for saying politically incorrect things." — Jason Riley, [07:27]
• Recent signs suggest younger audiences are beginning to rediscover Sowell, demonstrated by his popularity on social media and through documentaries.

Personal Discoveries and The Power of Accessible Economics

[08:18–11:48]

• Kirk shares his own journey discovering Sowell via YouTube and how Sowell's discussion of the minimum wage and affirmative action was eye-opening.
• Riley notes Sowell’s commitment to writing economic works for non-expert readers, following in the footsteps of his mentor, Milton Friedman.
  • "Sowell's most popular book, his best selling book, is just called Basic Economics... an economics textbook with no graphs and charts and jargon." — Jason Riley, [10:36]
• Both host and guest contrast Sowell’s accessible style with scholarly elitism.

Sowell’s Biography: From Poverty to Intellectual Prominence

[14:08–18:29]

• Riley recounts Sowell’s journey: born in rural North Carolina in 1930, orphaned early, then raised in Harlem as part of the Great Migration.

• Sowell attended prestigious Stuyvesant High School but dropped out, spent time homeless, served in the Marines, and eventually graduated from Harvard at 28.

• Sowell’s later academic path took him to Columbia for his master’s and to the University of Chicago for his PhD under Milton Friedman, leading to teaching posts at multiple institutions before settling at the Hoover Institution.

  "He didn't write his first book till he was 40. Think of what might have been if he had had the traditional trajectory..." — Jason Riley, [16:40]

Cultural Attitudes and Civil Rights: Sowell’s Analysis

[18:57–22:26]

• Riley summarizes Sowell's historical analysis on why black students were better represented at Stuyvesant High in the past than today, emphasizing the importance of "human capital" and cultural attitudes toward education and the law.
  • "Back in the 1930s and 40s and 50s ... blacks had very different attitudes towards things like education, the rule of law, policing..." — Jason Riley, [19:57]
• The conversation highlights Sowell’s critique of the shift in the civil rights movement from promoting equality of opportunity to seeking equality of outcomes.

Sowell’s Predictions on Social Policy

[22:26–24:27]

• Sowell foresaw negative consequences arising from 1960s social policies (the Great Society) and changing strategies within the civil rights movement.
• He was bold in challenging mainstream narratives about the roots of social disadvantage, particularly in the black community.
  • "He saw that coming a long time... The problems of black people today run far deeper than what whites are doing to them." — Jason Riley, [23:23]
• Example: Riley references homicide statistics from Chicago to demonstrate Sowell’s emphasis on actual, not perceived, sources of community problems.

The “Memory Hole” — Why Sowell Is Overlooked

[26:00–28:55]

• Kirk and Riley discuss the deliberate omission of figures like Sowell, Frederick Douglass, and Clarence Thomas from the mainstream narrative.

  • "It's almost to stick them down a memory hole. To use an Orwellian term, they never existed." — Charlie Kirk, [26:00]

• Sowell himself distinguished between the beliefs of black elites and ordinary black Americans, challenging the notion that elite voices speak for all.

  • "He'd say, you don't mean I'm out of step with other blacks, you mean I'm out of step with other black elites." — Jason Riley, [27:30]

Beyond Race: Sowell’s Full Intellectual Range

[29:33–31:19]

• Riley urges recognition for Sowell’s scholarship outside of race, including works on social theory, political philosophy, and education.

  • "He would have had a distinguished career even if he had never written a single word about affirmative action." — Jason Riley, [29:55]

• Notable moment: Kirk recalls Sowell’s comical yet insightful essay on meetings and bureaucracy illustrating his disdain for inefficiency and love of direct action.

Sowell vs. Contemporary Intellectuals

[32:27–33:26]

• Riley laments that Sowell often isn’t listed among great black intellectuals, despite a body of work and analytical rigor surpassing many more widely recognized contemporaries.
  • "The rigor and depth of his scholarship is incomparable to what they've done. He has written circles around them." — Jason Riley, [32:49]

The Book: "Maverick" and Sowell’s Legacy

[33:19–34:15]

• Riley chose the title "Maverick" to capture Sowell’s "tell it like it is" attitude and rare courage among intellectuals.

  • "You would think these are people in the truth telling business. They just follow the facts. But it's a rare quality. And I thought that Maverick is a way that captured it, captured that attitude." — Jason Riley, [33:26]

• Kirk closes by expressing his belief that widespread exposure to Sowell’s ideas could greatly benefit America.

  "If every American over the age of 18 got properly exposed to Thomas Sowell like they did Ibram X Kendi... America's problems would be largely fixed almost that easily." — Charlie Kirk, [33:51]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Simply telling the truth these days and being more worried about truth than popularity makes you a standout among our intellectual elites today.” — Jason Riley, [05:32]
• “Thomas Sowell was sort of canceled before it was cool.” — Jason Riley, [07:27]
• “The idea that they are better known and better respected than Sowell is another reason I wanted to write the book and introduce him to more people.” — Jason Riley, [32:49]
• “He's just ... this tell it like it is attitude. And again, it's not something that should distinguish you as an intellectual or a scholar.” — Jason Riley, [33:26]
• “America's problems would be largely fixed ... that's how big of a deal his scholarship is.” — Charlie Kirk, [33:51]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:50] — Introduction of Jason Riley and his biography "Maverick"
• [05:32] — What sets Sowell apart as an intellectual
• [07:27] — Sowell’s marginalization and emerging popularity
• [14:08] — Sowell’s early life and educational journey
• [18:57] — Explaining changing black representation at Stuyvesant High School
• [22:26] — Predicting and analyzing the impact of 1960s social policies
• [26:00] — Cancel culture and memory holing black conservative thinkers
• [29:33] — Sowell’s broader scholarship beyond race
• [32:27] — The unfair exclusion of Sowell among prominent black intellectuals
• [33:19] — The meaning behind the book’s title, "Maverick"
• [33:51] — Closing thoughts on Sowell’s impact

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive look at Thomas Sowell’s life, thought, and enduring relevance, both through the lens of his biographer Jason Riley and through Charlie Kirk's personal reflections. Riley makes a compelling case for why Sowell deserves greater recognition among young Americans and why his empirical approach to contentious issues is so vital today. The episode is a call to rediscover and celebrate Thomas Sowell’s unique brand of "timeless wisdom."