The Charlie Kirk Show

Episode: Two Different Conservative Paths Forward—In Depth with Dana Loesch

Air Date: June 29, 2021
Host: Charlie Kirk
Guest: Dana Loesch

Episode Overview

This episode features a spirited, respectful, and candid conversation between Charlie Kirk and fellow conservative commentator Dana Loesch. The two examine the evolving identity of the conservative movement, specifically debating the appropriate role of government in promoting family, liberty, and societal values. They explore the shifting priorities between libertarian and interventionist conservatism, touching on issues like corporate power, population decline, the merits and dangers of using government for social engineering, and Second Amendment rights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Changing Face of the Conservative Coalition (04:24–08:00)

• Kirk and Loesch reflect on how the conservative movement has shifted since 2012—the rise of Trump, a growing coalition of Hispanic and Black Republicans, and the broadening of issues addressed by the right beyond traditional libertarian economic concerns.
• Dana Loesch:
  "For the first time in my life, I don’t know that I’ve ever seen such a coalition that has existed on the right like it does today." (05:42)
• The conversation stresses the importance of narrative and storytelling for winning over voters, especially those who felt abandoned by Democrats.

Libertarian vs. Interventionist Conservatism (08:14–14:00)

• Charlie Kirk questions whether conservatives should abandon neoliberal, corporate-aligned policies, and instead adopt bold, pro-family, and anti-corporatist stances.
• Kirk:
  "I’ve become quite honestly disgusted with neoliberalism...I think it’s all just been a massive corporate scheme to get us to hate ourselves and not have children." (08:35)
• Loesch responds:
  "I, I, I almost can argue both sides...but when they start acting as agents of the state, I think they're assuming that liability...it's a new realization for conservatism." (10:22)
• They discuss the dangers of concentrated corporate power (e.g., Blackrock, Big Tech), debating whether and how principles of limited government can be reconciled with the need to check quasi-state corporate actors.

The Population Crisis: Should Government Intervene? (15:42–29:30)

The Core Disagreement:

Kirk argues for using government incentives to combat America’s declining birth rate; Loesch rejects state involvement in private family decisions.

• Kirk:
  "We need to pay people to have children." (15:57)
  "If you're part of a society, you have to replicate." (17:10)
• Loesch:
  "I don’t believe in the government getting involved in those kind of decisions. It's for individuals to decide. Free society...We’re appealing to the government to solve our problems, which is the antithesis of the conservative ethic." (16:19)
• They debate examples from Hungary and Russia (state pro-natalist policies), with Kirk praising such interventions, and Loesch retorting that such societies "have bread lines" and unique Eastern Bloc mentalities (17:49–18:11).
• They tussle over principles: Loesch insists on strict constitutionalism (Article I, Section 8), while Kirk prioritizes pragmatic solutions to existential national challenges—"either we’re going to use political power and public policy to preserve what matters, or we’re going to be principled while we manage the decline of the greatest country ever." (14:02)
• Memorable Exchange:
  • Kirk: "Why have the principle if the nation will crumble while you stand on that principle?" (28:30)
  • Loesch: "Then that’s my penalty for not being a good enough advocate." (28:34)

Civic Engagement and Cultural Renewal

• Both agree civic engagement—voting, activism, storytelling—are essential, but Loesch is adamant that this activism should come from citizens, not government programs.
• Loesch:
  "If you want a republic then you have to keep it. It's not the government's responsibility and it's un-American to outsource...

Liberty, Virtue, and the Foundation of Conservatism (25:42–34:02)

• Discussion moves to the philosophical: can liberty survive without virtue? Is conservative morality ultimately rooted in faith?
• Defining liberty:
  • Loesch: "Freedom to take advantage of opportunity...nothing's guaranteed. That means you assume risk also. And responsibility." (25:45–26:00)
• They debate whether an atheist can authentically be a conservative, both agreeing that a "transcendent order" and rooted virtue are key for sustainable conservatism, though Loesch says conservatism itself "is not a religious principle." (33:11–33:59)

Guns, Government Overreach, and the Next Rubicon (34:49–44:38)

• Conversation pivots to gun rights and the dangers of further regulation, focusing on Biden’s nomination of David Chipman to head the ATF.
• Loesch is forceful and colorful:
  "David Chipman looks like the kind of guy who’s never had to draw down on anyone...He is a blue-anon conspiracy theorist tyrant." (35:00)
• They recount the Waco siege, exposing what they see as the dangers of government overreach and propaganda—"the goal is to make everything be discoverable by the government in order to be an NFA item" (42:23), warning this could open the door to gun registries and home inspections.
• Loesch:
  "The people who talk about it aren’t the ones who are going to be doing it. The ones who are going to be doing it are my sons, my friend's sons, their friends..." (44:29)

Selected Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Coalition Building:

  "There were more Hispanic Americans voting Republican than we've seen since...And that brought a lot of people to the Republican Party, to the right in general..."
  —Loesch (05:42)

• On Corporate Power:

  "What happens if Google is more powerful than your government?"
  —Kirk (11:52)

• On Using Government to Promote Birth Rates:

  "We need to pay people to have children."
  —Kirk (15:57)
  "No...I don’t believe in the government getting involved in those kind of decisions. That's for individuals to decide."
  —Loesch (16:19)

• On Principle vs. Pragmatism:

  "But why have the principle if the nation will crumble while you stand on that principle?"
  —Kirk (28:30)
  "Then that’s my penalty for not being a good enough advocate."
  —Loesch (28:34)

• On Second Amendment:

  "David Chipman looks like his reflexes are about as slow as your grandma...more passion for going after law abiding gun owners than he has to actually understand firearm law."
  —Loesch (35:00)
  "When they say they’re coming for your guns, like Beto O’Rourke said...he was being honest and he meant it."
  —Loesch (43:41)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Changing Conservative Coalition: 04:24–08:00
• Libertarian vs. Interventionist Approaches: 08:14–14:00
• Population Collapse and Government Power Debate: 15:42–29:30
• Liberty, Virtue, and Role of Religion: 25:42–34:02
• Second Amendment and ATF Nominee Discussion: 34:49–44:38

Tone and Language

The tone is energetic, irreverent, and unsparingly direct. Both Kirk and Loesch employ anecdote, rhetorical challenge, and humor to press their perspectives, modeling both passionate disagreement and mutual respect. The conversation is filled with clear, memorable phrasing and strong ideological language—particularly around government power, liberty, and American exceptionalism.

Memorable Moments

• Charlie Kirk and Dana Loesch’s back-and-forth over whether America should directly subsidize childbearing is both substantive and showcases their philosophical dividing line.
• Loesch’s vivid story about visiting the Waco compound and her impassioned account of the Second Amendment debate add energy and personal insight.
• Both admit movement on their own positions—the willingness to debate and even play devil’s advocate, which they see as increasingly rare in conservative circles.

Takeaway

This episode provides a revealing snapshot of the tensions inside American conservatism circa 2021: whether to double down on small-government purity or wield power to shape culture; how to confront corporate power without betraying constitutionalism; and the profound importance of civic engagement and personal virtue in preserving liberty. Kirk and Loesch illustrate the potential for debate and unity—without surrendering their core principles.