Two Persecuted Pastors with Jack Hibbs and Rob McCoy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Charlie Kirk Show

Episode: Two Persecuted Pastors with Jack Hibbs and Rob McCoy
Date: August 9, 2020
Host: Charlie Kirk
Guests: Pastor Jack Hibbs, Pastor Rob McCoy

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Charlie Kirk and two prominent California pastors, Jack Hibbs and Rob McCoy, who are facing government threats, possible arrest, and public criticism for keeping their churches open during the COVID-19 pandemic. The discussion weaves through themes of religious liberty, the role of the church in politics and culture, constitution-based resistance, church leadership, evangelism, and the responsibility of Christians in turbulent times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. COVID-19, Church Closures, and Civil Disobedience

• Context: Both pastors kept their churches open despite statewide shutdown orders.
• Motivation: Initially, both closed for a short period due to uncertainty but reopened upon realizing the severity did not match the government narrative.
  • "As soon as we saw that this was a scamdemic, we opened." – Rob McCoy [02:12]
  • "I had to apologize to the church for even doing that." – Jack Hibbs [01:54]
• Attendance Effects: Both churches experienced massive growth.
  • "Our church attendance [is] through the roof, bigger than ever." – Charlie Kirk [02:35]
  • “Tripled.” – Rob McCoy [02:38]
  • "14,000 people last Sunday." – Charlie Kirk [02:39]

2. Freedom of Choice & Government Overreach

• The pastors emphasize offering a range of worship options (in-person, outdoor, parking lot, streaming) as a model of freedom and mature congregational trust.
  • "It's called freedom." – Rob McCoy and Jack Hibbs [05:36]
• They critique the government’s definition of “essential” services and criticize churches that comply unquestioningly.
  • "You make cannabis essential and...liquor stores essential and then violate our first Amendment." – Rob McCoy [02:20]
  • “We are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That’s why we are here.” – Charlie Kirk [01:07]

3. Biblical Rationale for Resistance

• The pastors argue their stance is not rebellion but biblical obedience.
  • "We are commanded to not forsake fellowshipping with the saints." – Rob McCoy [08:11]
  • "I know how to love our people more than the governor knows how to love our people." – Jack Hibbs [04:21]
• Romans 13 is discussed:
  • “The authority in America is found in the first three words of the preamble: ‘We the people.’” – Rob McCoy [08:37]
  • Comparison to historical and biblical figures of civil disobedience (Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr., Corrie Ten Boom).

4. Church’s Role in Politics, Society, and Cultural Clarity

• They lament churches avoiding politics, arguing this has led to loss of moral influence.
  • "If we pastors do not understand the workings and the politics of the nation that He has placed us in, then we are ripe to lose the freedoms to preach the Gospel." – Jack Hibbs [13:29]
  • “Where’s the power of the gospel? ... We don’t do politics. So the gospel died at home.” – Rob McCoy [27:14, 27:32]
• Churches are encouraged to provide clarity on controversial issues.
  • "People want clarity in all things. And Christ brings forth clarity. ... Confusion is a tool of Satan." – Charlie Kirk [23:09]

5. Discipleship vs. ‘Cattle Call Christianity’

• Critique of superficial evangelistic models that don’t lead to durable discipleship.
  • “Salvation is one step. It’s the first step to the discipleship process, which is the rest of your life.” – Jack Hibbs [18:36]
  • “The Lord says not to make converts, but disciples. And disciples change the world.” – Rob McCoy [18:28]

6. BLM, Marxism, and the Church’s Responsiveness to Social Issues

• Strongly differentiate supporting black lives from supporting the BLM organization, which they view as Marxist and destructive.
  • “Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization.” – Rob McCoy [14:20]
  • "They have pimped my ethnicity and they are destroying my culture." – Jack Hibbs [15:11]
• Critique of pastors performing symbolic gestures instead of confronting core issues like abortion and family policy.

7. Engagement in the Public Square: Voting, Leadership, and Incrementalism

• Discussion includes challenges with Christians disengaging from politics or demanding personal moral perfection from political candidates.
  • “We’re not voting for pastor in chief, but commander in chief.” – Rob McCoy [29:13]
  • "We're voting for a government. We're voting for a movement. We're voting for a philosophy, an ideology." – Charlie Kirk [29:44]
• Highlights need for practical engagement—running for office, supporting candidates incrementally.

8. Persecution and Faithfulness

• Both pastors discuss real consequences for political engagement: threats, property damage, opposition from within and outside the church.
  • “I've never faced it until I stepped into politics...I saw the worst of humanity...I've never felt closer to the Lord.” – Rob McCoy [41:00]
  • "Christians I know in DC...I admire them so much because I couldn't take that kind of heat." – Jack Hibbs [42:01]

9. America’s Constitutional Order and the Christian Mind

• Emphasize the uniqueness of the American system in protecting rights for all.
  • “Everybody gets the same rights. That’s never happened before.” – Jack Hibbs [46:30]
  • "Man is innately sinful. You have to separate the powers because power wants to concentrate." – Rob McCoy [47:03]

10. Cultural Weakness, Fragility, and the Loss of Suffering

• Cultural tendency to avoid suffering, which biblically and psychologically harms personal and societal growth.
  • "Pain is a gift from God in a fallen world." – Rob McCoy [55:26]
  • Parental overprotection and social trends undermine healthy maturation and spiritual discipline.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Freedom & Government Overreach:
  “I know how to love our people more than the governor knows how to love our people.”
  — Jack Hibbs [04:21]

• On Romans 13 & Biblical Authority:
  "The authority in America is found in the first three words...‘We the people.’ They govern by our consent."
  — Rob McCoy [08:37]

• On Losing Cultural Influence:
  "We don't do politics. So the gospel died at home."
  — Rob McCoy [27:32]

• On Making Disciples:
  “The Lord says not to make converts, but disciples. And disciples change the world.”
  — Rob McCoy [18:28]

• On Modern Churches
  "A lot of pastors hide behind government orders with a zeal and a passion that I’d like to see for the Bible."
  — Jack Hibbs [43:19]

• On Persecution in America:
  "Today the church has to be led by pastors who are willing to divorce themselves from peer pressure, from likability...When you have a pastor who's dead, then you're going to find a church that's alive."
  — Jack Hibbs [60:25]

• On Church Shopping:
  "It's okay to withdraw and find a church that is being led by someone confident. ...Don’t keep subsidizing people that are confused because your withdrawal from that actually might bring them to the right direction."
  — Charlie Kirk [62:03, 62:32]

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Key Timestamps

• [02:08] – Churches reopening, seeing growth, and stories from attendees
• [03:36] – Grace and understanding for pastors who remain closed
• [06:02] – Handling of COVID data; charge of "censoring" opposing views
• [08:15] – Romans 13, biblical obedience, and American constitutionalism
• [14:04] – Critique of BLM organization and church’s role in racial justice
• [18:17] – Evangelism, discipleship, and converting versus raising believers
• [27:28] – The consequence of avoiding politics: loss of societal influence
• [35:36] – Crisis as a catalyst for church growth and evangelism
• [41:00] – Experiencing persecution due to political engagement
• [47:03] – America's unique constitutional approach and implications for freedom
• [55:26] – The importance of suffering and responsibility in the Christian life
• [60:25] – What makes a good pastor during trials; finding healthy churches

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a passionate, unapologetically conservative defense of political engagement and biblical fidelity in the face of modern challenges—pandemic restrictions, societal confusion, and pressures for the church’s silence. Hibbs and McCoy share that personal suffering, constitutional awareness, and robust discipleship are necessary for Christians and churches to thrive in times of crisis. They urge believers to seek out faithful leadership and reject both cultural cowardice and authoritarian overreach.

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For more information or to support Pastor Hibbs & Pastor McCoy:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Get involved: Turning Point USA

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Transcript

[Rob McCoy]

Thank you for listening to this Podcast 1 production now available on Apple Podcasts, Podcast 1, Spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hey everybody. Today we are joined by Pastor Jack Hibbs and Pastor Rob McCoy, two amazing pastors that love our country, love the kingdom of God and are honestly under huge attack right now in persecution. You can email me freedom charliekirk.com all your questions. Thank you. Thank you for supporting our program to be advertiser free on the [e-mail] support. But just as I am doing this podcast, both of these pastors are being threatened with arrest and their entire church being shutting down because they are staying wide open. Email us freedom charliekirk.com, freedomarliekirk.com Buckle up. Jack Hibbs, Rob McCoy are here. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

[Jack Hibbs]

Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

[Rob McCoy]

I want you to know we are

[Charlie Kirk]

lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

[Jack Hibbs]

Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. I want to than Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point usa.

[Charlie Kirk]

We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives. And we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Hey everybody. Welcome to this special episode of the Charlie Kirk Show. This is a duo, a combo that is legendary.

[Rob McCoy]

Oh boy.

[Charlie Kirk]

Pastor Rob McCoy, Pastor Jack Hibbs. Two heroes of mine, Heroes for our country. Heroes in California. I got to know both of you before all this nonsense in our country started. And these two men have their churches totally open fighting city government. Rob, you never closed.

[Rob McCoy]

Well, we did for, yeah, a week.

[Charlie Kirk]

And Pastor Jack, you did a small interval. Then you guys both opened and I

[Jack Hibbs]

had to apologize to the church for even doing that.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, I felt bad about too.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And now you guys remain open and defiant against Governor Newsom.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And how are your churches doing? Start with you, Rob.

[Rob McCoy]

Well, I, I would say especially Jack, you probably are in the same boat that when we were closed, we didn't know the severity of the COVID 19. At the time we were still processing the data, at least for us. And as soon as we saw that this was a scamdemic, we opened. And the non essential designation by our governor, that was it. I mean, you make cannabis essential and you make bicycle repair shops and liquor stores essential and then violate our first Amendment. That. Yeah. So we're doing great.

[Charlie Kirk]

Our church is attendance through the roof bigger than ever.

[Rob McCoy]

Bigger than ever. Tripled.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. Same 14,000 people last Sunday.

[Rob McCoy]

So.

[Charlie Kirk]

And you probably had a 200% increase, right?

[Rob McCoy]

Well, yeah, we're one tenth of his church. So you had 14,000. We had 1400.

[Jack Hibbs]

Listen, it's the amount of conversions. People coming for comfort, people. People walking in the front door starting to cry because they said it was precious. We're home. And these are people that some of them have never even been here before and they're saying, we're home because we sense God. One woman said it so perfectly. She is a nurse, her husband is an lapd and she was very emotional. And she said. I said, are you okay? She goes, I'm more than okay. She said, because this is the first, first taste of normal that we've had in months. And it does my soul and my mind good.

[Rob McCoy]

Amen.

[Charlie Kirk]

So, yeah, there are pastors that are remaining closed and they are committed to it and they're saying this is dividing the body. What do you have to say about that? Jack them up first.

[Jack Hibbs]

I want to, I want to cut those guys a big slice of grace by saying this. Whoever those pastors are, it is possible that they are an elder run church. Maybe the pastor doesn't have any say.

[Rob McCoy]

That's true.

[Jack Hibbs]

It's possible. Or they're. Or they are the head pastor and, and they are using things like we can't open up because somebody could get sick. I would say someone is going to get sick if it's cancer, if it's stroke. Listen, we're not going to prevent anything in the sense of people getting sick. People get sick every day. All of a sudden, nobody can get sick and nobody can die. We don't want to do anything to harm people. My argument is this. I'm the pastor of this church. I know how to love our people more than the governor knows how to love our people. I want their welfare better than he does. The problem with his argument is there's no science to his argument. It's changing by the day. And yet we've been meeting for what, 10 weeks, 11 weeks, and it's just continuing to grow. And we've had no reports of sickness. We ask people to stay home if they're sick. If there's. We say, if you're sick, don't come.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right.

[Jack Hibbs]

But we've given every opportunity. Charlie, you know you've walked around the campus for people to experience church in all kinds of ways.

[Charlie Kirk]

I know this. I've spoke at both your churches now multiple times. And thank you. You Guys are the few pastors in the country that dare to associate yourself with me. So thank you. It's true. A lot of pastors, they just don't know you yet. They run for the hills. They don't know. Rob, you offer radio if people want to sit in the parking lot. Live stream.

[Rob McCoy]

Yep.

[Charlie Kirk]

They can if they want to be. I think you have a forum where they can be socially distanced or they can stay at home. Obviously, Jack, you have a field if they want to be socially distanced outside Jumbotron midfield. So if they want the normal, they can do the normal. If they want to stay at home, they can do that if they want to be in the parking lot. So there's almost like a menu of options.

[Jack Hibbs]

Absolutely.

[Charlie Kirk]

Same with you, right, Rob?

[Rob McCoy]

It's called freedom.

[Jack Hibbs]

It's called freedom.

[Charlie Kirk]

And what I find so, in my own opinion, frustrating and repulsive on how some of these pastors have handled this, Rob, is these pastors are treating their congregants like infants.

[Jack Hibbs]

Oh, yes. Well said.

[Charlie Kirk]

And saying, we know what's best for you, but we are going to shut it all down because you don't know how to make informed choices. What's been your experience with staying open?

[Rob McCoy]

I think with the pastors that are closed. And I'm going to take the direction that Jack has because love hopes all things. And I would think, especially for some of these pastors, whatever information they're getting that's causing them to make the decision they're making is not correct. When. When we've had doctors on our live stream, we've had psychologists on our live stream. When we've looked at the data. And. And what's interesting is anything that's contrary to the narrative set by the governor is immediately censored. And they say, you know, all medical professionals are in agreement. Well, those are the medical professionals that you allow on. On. On social media. And then you censor the ones that have a contrary. But you look at the data and this thing has a 99% survival rate with anyone who has contracted it. Right. And just because that we know of and it's actually higher, but just because cases are going up, hospitalizations and deaths are going down, this. This is not worthy. And you don't quarantine the healthy.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah. First time in American history.

[Rob McCoy]

In American history. So when they tell us that we're not essential, this is an ideological battle, and pastors have to awaken that to that. And I don't think they know that, Charlie. I really just want to believe that love hopes all things. They just don't know it and they need to awaken to it and they need to step up.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, absolutely true. Charlie and I talked earlier just in our, in our conversations of life beforehand and things where it makes people feel comfortable to say, politicians to say this is essential, this is non essential. Of course, you said it in California. You can't have church and you can't sing out loud, you can't pray out loud. But you can go down the street and have an abortion, but we're not going to talk about.

[Rob McCoy]

And you can burn buildings in March and be, you know.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, and I think.

[Jack Hibbs]

Absolutely.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I think here's the broader question. You know, we've said church is essential. I mean, is salvation essential?

[Jack Hibbs]

Well, that's why the church is not either. The church is an essential and it's not non essential. The church is transcendent and can't even be put in this category because of that.

[Rob McCoy]

And I would add, Jack is not being rebellious and neither am I. We are being obedient.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's right.

[Rob McCoy]

We are commanded to not forsake fellowshipping with the saints. That's right.

[Jack Hibbs]

We are.

[Rob McCoy]

We are commanded towards fellowship.

[Jack Hibbs]

But no, Rob, see you, you're a bad guy because you didn't obey Romans 13. You see, that's a good one.

[Rob McCoy]

I love that you brought that up.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's why I brought it up.

[Charlie Kirk]

You ever heard that one?

[Rob McCoy]

You teed it up. Yeah. Okay, let's look at Romans 13.

[Charlie Kirk]

The oracle speaks.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, okay. That you're to obey all. All positions of authority. They're appointed by God. Full agreement to that. I agree.

[Jack Hibbs]

Absolutely.

[Rob McCoy]

And that. That they're ministers of. Of justice to execute wrath on those who do evil. They carry the sword, so they've got authority and I get that. But they're there for our good. And let's not forget this. The Beauty of America, 244 years. Under this Constitution, the authority in America is found in the first three words of the preamble. We the people, we're the authority. They govern by our consent and they're constrained by the seven articles of that constitution. And when they don't abide by that, it is our right and our duty to push back.

[Charlie Kirk]

So now, Rob. Jack.

[Rob McCoy]

So I am obeying Romans 13.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, same here.

[Charlie Kirk]

So are you. Some pastors say we never should have dissolved from King George in the first place. Oh, yeah?

[Rob McCoy]

Well, then go to England. Seriously, go to England. But even those pastors that are doing that are now standing.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, in order to be philosophically consistent, they should go to Rome because the, the people from the northern part of England should never have pushed back against Roman aggression.

[Jack Hibbs]

But here's when, in an age in which we're in right now, okay, we all, we're all Bible students. We're studying the Bible. We see what's happening in our day. When would be. What would be the event that causes a pastor to throw off the yoke of. Of political encroachment and say, now that's the hill I'm going to stand on. So if you can't stand for this little bump in the road.

[Charlie Kirk]

Charlie. No, Jack, I was just gonna say the best point because every pastor should have to answer. What is your line then? Right. So I mean, if, if it's not now, then give us a set of circumstances, be very specific of what your line is.

[Rob McCoy]

I have one question for pastors who would state something like that. Should Rosa Parks have gotten to the back of the bus?

[Charlie Kirk]

Wow.

[Rob McCoy]

Was. Was Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King wrong in. In. In fighting for civil rights? Was the abolition of slavery and pushing.

[Jack Hibbs]

I mean, yeah, or Corrie Ten Boone and her family.

[Charlie Kirk]

Frederick Douglass. Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Hibbs]

Or then, hey, then what about Rahab protecting the two spies? Yeah.

[Rob McCoy]

You can't use it. It just doesn't work that way. That's convenience to stay within the realm. And I understand that there's. It. The body of Christ influences government, but we're not Dominionism. It's not a theocracy.

[Jack Hibbs]

My goodness, no.

[Charlie Kirk]

And we've been telling us what that means. A lot of listeners have never heard these.

[Rob McCoy]

Okay.

[Charlie Kirk]

Dominionism in particular, for example, I've, you

[Rob McCoy]

know, people have made comments that you use the seven mountains of cultural influence. And I pointed out to the folks who had said that, that you had commented. I said, I'm the one who fed him that. He's not a Dominionist. Speaking of you, Charlie, when I comment on the seven mountains of cultural influence, I'm using it from a psychological perspective.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is dominion?

[Rob McCoy]

A Dominionist is this idea that we are ushering in God's kingdom on the earth.

[Jack Hibbs]

And there's a lot of people that hold to that view and they hold on.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why do we not hold to that view?

[Rob McCoy]

The reason why we don't and you don't. Because I've had that conversation with you. The reason why we don't hold to that view is because we're a pluralistic society. And in this nation of a constitutional republic, especially with Galatians 3, it says that the law is a guardian to point us to Christ and Schoolmaster. Until faith comes.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah.

[Rob McCoy]

In the meantime, we build these. We build these laws, these civil laws to protect mankind because it's the laws of nature, Nature's God. But there isn't this one theocracy where we have. People have to come to this realization, this choice.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yep. Listen. Patriotism is something that I could argue is found in the Scripture. Dominionism is patriotism on steroids. It's illogical. It's where we. We're going to make a. Either a church or. Or a nation ripe and ready and so good that then Jesus can come back when we make it good. When in reality is.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's a good explanation.

[Jack Hibbs]

Is the salt and light of a decaying culture. We know from scripture everything is going to decay. But does that mean we quit?

[Rob McCoy]

No.

[Jack Hibbs]

Because there are events in culture like America, like the founding of the United States or for that matter, the. The holding back of God's judgment promised against Nineveh. Why didn't God just smack him down like he said through Jonah? They repented. And so God reserves the right to pull back. And he did that with Nineveh. Forty years later, judgment came. What we do is we are taking the word of God looking for Jesus any day. But until he comes, we're going to occupy till he comes, says the Bible. And Christ brings the kingdom. We don't create it and then make it where it's a happy world for him to arrive.

[Rob McCoy]

And faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. So our primary calling. People think that we're all about politics, but for Jack and I, our primary calling is rightly dividing the word of truth.

[Charlie Kirk]

I said that in the car to you earlier.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, you did.

[Rob McCoy]

We always teach the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter book.

[Jack Hibbs]

But this is what Charlie said in the car. If we listen, if we pastors do not understand the workings and the politics of the nation that he has placed us in, then we are ripe to lose the freedoms to preach the Gospel.

[Rob McCoy]

A perfect example that Black Lives Matter. They have zeal. Nobody wants racism, nobody wants prejudice in their church. We endeavor to keep the union spirit in the bond of peace. If anyone is being abused because of the content of the melanin of their skin and that exists, we want that ended.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's right. That's wrong.

[Rob McCoy]

But to think that you're somehow contributing to the end of that prejudice and that racism by a black tile or sending money into Black Lives Matter, zeal without knowledge is foolishness. You need to study to realize Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization.

[Jack Hibbs]

It's Black Lives Matter Incorporated.

[Charlie Kirk]

Incorporated. We call it BLM because we never want to say something negative about a statement that is obsessively I go out of my way in the blm. And by the way, ever since we've said it, their favorability has gone down 20 points. Finish.

[Rob McCoy]

Rob yeah, we, we believe Black lives matter.

[Jack Hibbs]

All black lives matter.

[Rob McCoy]

And as a matter of fact, you take the the black American population at 13%. Divide that in half, male and female, six and a half percent. Take it down to childbearing years on the for for black females, that's conservatively 4%. 4% of the population is responsible for 40% of the abortions. Yet Planned Parenthood supports BLM Inc. And BLM Inc. Supports Planned Parenthood and it holocaust on the black community. There needs to be outrage. And the pastors that are putting up those black tiles thinking that they're usaging their guilt, they need to stand in opposition to abortion.

[Jack Hibbs]

Rob I said something to the same effect a couple of weeks ago. I went out into the courtyard to greet people after service and there was a beeline of black individuals coming to me, hugging me, kissing me, no social distancing at all to say to me, thank you for what you said today about BLM Incorporated. Because they have pimped. Listen, they have pimped my ethnicity and they are destroying my culture. They're qualified to say that. To be honest with you, I have zero respect for a white guy telling me about BLM Incorporated or, or true Black Lives Matter. But they're not talking about the real truth about Black Lives Matter. They want to talk about BLM Incorporated and they're completely not qualified to talk about it.

[Rob McCoy]

And, and that's where, that's where we as pastors we can have zeal but without knowledge, it's foolishness. We've got to study to know these things. And the scripture says whatever things are true. We all I'm just about the gospel. I just preach the word. You need to know the culture around you. You need to understand these things.

[Jack Hibbs]

I could argue, Rob, that just preaching the gospel is not enough because you need to endorse your people after you have preached the gospel to now go do the gospel. It's not good to be a student and a hearer. Only I think the Bible has something to say about that.

[Rob McCoy]

I'm going to jump on that one. So I get this all the time. I know you do too. That we're. I hey, I don't, I don't do politics because I'm all about the gospel. As though somehow you and I aren't.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, you're not.

[Rob McCoy]

And, and when we say the gospel, if I were to boil it down and ask them that they would, they would quote Ephesians 2. You're saved by grace through faith. It's a gift of God, not of works, as any man should boast. And then it goes, if you believe in your heart, confess with your tongue, Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. The glory of the Father. If that's you, raise your hand. God bless you.

[Charlie Kirk]

I see your hand.

[Rob McCoy]

And you, Professor. Oh, God bless you. I see your hand. And we do that, we throw the net out. Amen.

[Jack Hibbs]

Okay, I'm missing some elements that I would preach, but, but I, I do. You got, but we're there.

[Rob McCoy]

I'm limited on time.

[Charlie Kirk]

You guys work with the same book?

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, yeah. And, and we recognize that we're sin sinners and we need to be. So we're saved by grace through faith and we respond to that. Okay. Salvation by grace didn't happen in Ephesians 2. It's back in Genesis 15, where Abraham believed God it was accredited him as righteousness. So we've got it in both places. So the question is, why did God give the law 430 years later? That's right, because 3 to 5 million Jews were in slavery. Liberty is not man's idea. It's God's idea. They cried out to God, he sent a deliverer. Ten plagues, red seas parted, their food provided everyday water, their clothes don't wear out. Moses goes up on Mount Sinai, gets a downloaded moral app. Five commandments, relationship, God, five commandments. Relationship with each other comes down. The entire community is in debauchery. He puts the moral law in the center of the community. And for 40 years they live without a police force or a standing army. That is why God brought the law. And then Paul points it out in Galatians three, and then in five. And we stand fast therefore, in the liberty for which Christ has set us free. The Gospel. The Lord says not to make converts,

[Jack Hibbs]

but disciples make disciples.

[Rob McCoy]

And disciples change the world.

[Jack Hibbs]

But you know, you just. Charlie, this is your show, right?

[Charlie Kirk]

Because I just work here.

[Jack Hibbs]

This is the, this Rob hit the nail on the head regarding what is church these days. Just because we lead somebody to Christ doesn't mean that we're making any headway. Because number one, we could bring a baby into the world and not feed the baby and starve the baby. Salvation is one step. It's the first step to the discipleship. Process, which is, the rest of your life you're saved in an instant. But the rest of your life, you walk with Jesus.

[Charlie Kirk]

And let me tell you what ends up happening. I grew up in suburbs of Chicago, went to some of the largest churches on the planet, went to a Christian school, fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, then went to a public school. And so I'm very familiar with cattle call Christianity is what I kind of call it, where they do the cattle call once every couple weeks, come forward on this, what ends up happening. And I've tracked these people throughout the years. Some of them I know that went and did that is that there is a questioning process that happens and sets in about four to six weeks after the cattle call conversion, right? So they come, they do the thing on Easter or Christmas or whenever they do the big deal, they all of a sudden start listening to K Love. They get really excited, they read the Bible in the morning, they tell their friends about it, right? They start wearing Christian T shirts. And then something happens, a friend interaction, something less than desirable. Suffering comes across, or inevitably a societal question comes across their radar, which. Which is the one that is probably.

[Rob McCoy]

They go to college.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, they go to college or whatever.

[Jack Hibbs]

It might be all the above, but

[Charlie Kirk]

it might not even be a young person. It could be someone in their 50s or 60s. And they go seek out their pastor. And they go to their pastor and they say, hey, look, Palatine High School in suburbs of Chicago. This is a true story. There's a boy who thinks he's a girl, and he's suing to be able to go into the girls locker room. And I did the whole cattle call thing, like, I love Christ. Now I listen to K Love, and I know all the lyrics. Like, all of them. You know, the goodness of God and everything, right? Is it okay if the boy goes into the girls locker room? Because. Is that Christlike? Because I want to be loving and forgiving. Real questions, by the way. Legitimate questions. And you know what the pastor said, in my local church, we don't get

[Jack Hibbs]

involved in stuff like that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let's pray on it.

[Rob McCoy]

And so.

[Charlie Kirk]

But here's what ends up happening, though, is that person that's asking the question, okay, all right. Then they go back and they kind of think about, and they pray about it. Within months, they'll disconnect. That's right, they will. Because all of a sudden, the tough things of which church and the Bible are supposed to be able to answer, they have no interest in engaging in that. It's the opposite of Galatians 3 so Galatians 3 is a truth, but the inverse is also true where it's at law as a school teacher to Christ, but the lack of any sort of interpretation of things that make sense in a very chaotic world, people will disengage from Christ. So it's also. I think it can retract you away from Christ.

[Jack Hibbs]

Not. Not only do I believe what. What you just said is true, but Rob, we've got Peter telling us that we should be able to give an answer to every man.

[Rob McCoy]

Every man.

[Jack Hibbs]

So now I may be wrong about what I'm about to say, but don't, don't correct me because I believe it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[Jack Hibbs]

If the Bible says that we ought to be able to give answer.

[Rob McCoy]

Secular progressive.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, it sounds like my truth. Some sort of postmodernist French garbage.

[Jack Hibbs]

Exactly. So watch this.

[Rob McCoy]

All right?

[Jack Hibbs]

If the Bible says that we should be able to give an answer to every man who asks us if we believe that this doctrine of predestination is based upon God's foreknowledge, then God can't learn anything. Nothing's going to happen without his knowledge. Having said that, I believe from Scripture that what you just said is so true. We're the ones that are to give the answers to people. If we don't know the answer, we should find it because God's provided the answer. I believe in some way that this is kind of rigged. I don't mean in the sense of a negative way, but if somebody calls and asks a question.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Jack Hibbs]

And I don't know the answer. Bad on me because the Bible has the answer. Well, especially every issue of life, the Bible has amen.

[Charlie Kirk]

And especially.

[Jack Hibbs]

That makes sense.

[Charlie Kirk]

Especially. And the one piece of life that can. I agree with all that. The one piece of life that could be very turbulent, very uncomfortable, very heated, very emotive, sometimes pathological. Is politics and governance. It's understandable because you. Everyone thinks they're right and everyone thinks that they want to go to the right direction. And so the church has disengaged because they're like, well, that's too controversial. It never made sense to me because I went to some of these megachurches growing up and they would have this fire and brimstone speech about how hell is a real place and people are screaming and dying. That's really intense. But you won't talk about.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, you wonderfully talk about abortion. Do they really believe?

[Charlie Kirk]

Totally unafraid to tell people they're going to burn forever, but perfectly. One final point on this though, is that People want clarity in all things. And Christ brings forth clarity. Right, because truth brings clarity. Truth in your direction, truth in your choices. And a confused society is one that will not embrace Christ. Confusion is a tool of Satan. It's one of his most effective tools is confusion. Gender confusion, societal confusion, cultural confusion. He wrote the book, Right? Historical confusion. Right. But Christ is clarity because Christ is truth. Christ is love. The point is that when people do not have clarity on something that affects them materially, sociologically, psychologically, and philosophically, and we are told that's a no go zone, they're like, wait a second. But I don't get it. There's all these yard signs in my, in my neighborhood. You're trying to tell me the church doesn't have anything to say about this? Like you're trying to tell me that I'm supposed to have no clarity when it comes to why my property tax bill keeps on going up every single year. So I have to sacrifice my tithe, my daughter has to shower with a man, and you're trying to tell me. Yeah, that the church has no clarity on this?

[Jack Hibbs]

Didn't Paul Tell Rob McCoy that the, the pillar in the ground of all truth is found where? In the church?

[Rob McCoy]

The church. I, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use this, that, you know, we're both Calvary Chapel pastors. Calvary Chapel, depending on whose history you read, started in 1968. Chuck breaks away from the Four Square Church. 1968, California, Reagan's governor. We have the fifth largest GDP on the face of the Earth. It's the state of the future. Air Force is setting up here. It's a space program. I mean, it's unbelievable. You and I were born here. My father, my grandfather, military. It's the state Chuck comes in in 68. Now, what happened? 68, Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Was shot. Bobby Kennedy was shot. John F. Kennedy was shot. In 63, we would have the My Lai massacre. The following year, we'd have the Kent State shootings. We have Marxism infiltrating the nation. There's political turmoil. All of the people these young people had put their hopes and dreams on have been assassinated, and the nation's in a meltdown. And my father had three tours of Vietnam. I remember him coming through Lindbergh Field, getting spit on. I remember being at the Washington Monument as they're throwing stuff at us with all the hippie movement. And Chuck comes out in 68, and he sees all these disenfranchised young people as the church is imploding people are checking into Western religions and trying to find themselves with drugs and everything. And so in the course of this, Chuck figures, I'm just going to avoid politics. I'm just going to teach the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book. Because faith comes from hearing, hearing from the word of God, and his word doesn't return. Void. A good approach.

[Jack Hibbs]

And at that time, it makes. I totally get it.

[Rob McCoy]

Totally get it. And none of those, none of those hippies would have come in had it been political. And he gives them a systematic study of the Scriptures, 66 books. And by the time he left this earth, he had taught through the entirety of the Bible. Many, many, many, many, many, many times. From that simple approach, Calvary Chapel experiences 10,000% growth south of Van Nuys, which is just about where I am. South of Van Nuys, there's 350 Calvary Chapels. It's a Calvary Chapel sandbox. And there's 1800 plus or minus around the world. We've got the Harvest Crusades with Greg Laurie, before he decided to leave the Calvary, but still affiliated. We've had Somebody loves you with Greg. I mean, with Raul Reese. Evangelism. We're preacher pre Millennial. The house is on fire. We've got to get the kids out. And they're coming to Christ in droves.

[Jack Hibbs]

Right?

[Rob McCoy]

But Chuck avoids politics. And all of us do. You and I know, but everyone else. But here we are, what, 50, 52 years into this movement. And, and how is, how is the 10,000% conversion? And that's, that's conversion growth, not transfer growth. How is that 10,000% growth affected the state? We're no longer the fifth largest GDP, we're the sixth. We have the highest gas tax, sales tax, income tax, corporate tax. We lead the nation in poverty, homelessness.

[Jack Hibbs]

We are the pornography filming capital, filming

[Rob McCoy]

capital of the world. Here's, here's the kicker. Authors of no Fault Divorce, transgender bathroom bills. And the biggest of all, we've aborted more children in the state of California than the entire population of Canada. Where's the power of the gospel?

[Jack Hibbs]

That's right.

[Rob McCoy]

We don't. We don't do politics.

[Jack Hibbs]

No, we don't do politics. So the gospel died at home.

[Rob McCoy]

But, but Aristotle said the highest form of community is politics because it's morality and sociability. And God pointed out in the Noah covenant, how do we get along?

[Jack Hibbs]

Well.

[Rob McCoy]

And the Bible speaks to everything.

[Jack Hibbs]

Rob, what you just said, we know this. It's fundamental. It's Sunday school stuff. Let Your light. So this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine. Oh, no, no, no, you're not. You're only gonna shine it on Sunday. And you might shine it on midweek service, but you don't shine it on Monday. You don't shine it at work. And that's the problem. Where did Jesus say, excuse me, don't shine your light over there? No, it's everywhere. And we have dropped the ball on everywhere, shining the light.

[Rob McCoy]

And. And then Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount that you're the salt of the earth. If salt loses its flavor, it's thrown out, trampled underfoot, good for nothing. Any Roman soldier hearing the Sermon on the Mount, which we get the word salary, Sal. Salt. You're worth your weight in salt. They knew it was a currency. If you don't know the currency in each of these areas, you're going to be trampled underfoot. As a pastor. The currency for us in, in the mountain of religion is. Or the salary of the currency is truth.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's right.

[Rob McCoy]

In politics, which pastors don't understand, but I do because I've run four times and won three races. So I'm batting.750 I can make in the major leagues. The currency in politics is one thing. Winning elections. You don't move the needle without winning an election. And if you look at me and say, I can't vote for someone three times married, twice divorced, that's moral pietism.

[Jack Hibbs]

Right?

[Rob McCoy]

And I look at you and I say, fine, but you're irrelevant to me as a politician.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right?

[Rob McCoy]

You're irrelevant. We're not voting for pastor in chief, but commander in chief. Well, I can't vote for that immoral man. And I say, okay, then take Samson out of the hall of faith.

[Jack Hibbs]

Or David.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, I can't. Well, I would say Samson. I can't teach him in Sunday school. I can't find anything really moral about Samson. He's in a prostitute's bed all night and the spirit of the Lord comes upon him. That's like mind blowing.

[Jack Hibbs]

First words out of his mouth was, find me that woman homeschooled and one of only two.

[Rob McCoy]

Only one of two unborn children prophesied to deliver God's people. Jesus and him.

[Charlie Kirk]

We, we fail to communicate to Christians that we're, we're not voting for a president. I think that's a very deceiving way to look at it. Instead, because the president feels very autocratic, right? We're voting for a government. We're voting for a movement. We're voting for a philosophy, an ideology. An ideology, especially now more so than ever, it matters far less about the human being that occupies it and much more about the millions of micro decisions that go into either stabilizing or deconstructing an entire civilization. And so, and I think this is President Trump's pathway to victory, is actually articulating this, is that he is nothing more than a vessel for people centered government at that. You know, you might not like my tweets, you might not like all this stuff. Well, get over that. Okay? Because I'm a bodyguard for civil society. And in order for them to get to me, I'm going to guard the door. I'm the bouncer, if you will, and I'm going to spit and I'm going to say things I shouldn't say, but I am the size of a door frame and I can fight and they don't want to come after me. And I'm going to keep you safe and stable and protect what is righteous and good. I think that's a much better way to communicate it because some people say, well, I don't like it. Well, first of all, I said, I for one, I really, really don't like the moral kind of judging game from Christians. And I talked about this and I think it's the worst extrapolation of kind of the parts of Calvinism, to be honest with you, where like I'm elect and you're not elect and I'm so much better than you are. I think the misapplication. I'm just gonna. I grew up around those circles. I did. And it drives me, it drives me.

[Rob McCoy]

That's a whole nother broadcast.

[Charlie Kirk]

I know it is, but I'm.

[Rob McCoy]

Come back, come back.

[Charlie Kirk]

I got it. But I'm saying that there's a point to how we communicate.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, well, here's the thing, too. So for the Christian who doesn't engage the culture and vote and get involved, what's it going to take to get them engaged? Is it when their child is messed up by the strip joint, the pornography store down the street, is that what wakes them up? What will wake them up? Where they put things in compartments? I'm not going to get involved in that. And I honestly want to know why. Do you think that's a good idea? Well, I just want to. Is it because you might get dirty, you might get tainted? Is Christianity so fragile that it can no longer engage the world around it? Is it so that weak look, maybe for some churches has been communicated that, yes, in Fact, it is that week.

[Rob McCoy]

It. If you're a pastor and. And you got to do, you know, book report once a week, and the only thing you have to do is throw the net out to have people raise their hand. That's a lot easier than having to soil yourself by getting involved in the school board and the city council, even though the scripture says, pray for kings and those in authority, that we would live quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and reverence. And you ask those pastors, and that's a pastoral epistle, you ask them, can you name your five school board members and your five city council members that you pray for by name and the issues they're dealing with that allow your community, your followers, to live quiet and peaceful lives in all godliness and reverence? They don't have. They don't know the names, but it. It's too hard to get involved, right? And it's a lot easier just to collect the tithe and have people raise their hand and then feel good that you've been forgiven of your sins, cast as far as east is from the west, be remembered no more, which is precious. But, you know, you were saying, these children are being birthed but not raised. And when an evangelist comes into town, and you were talking about the. The roi, the return on investment, you put on this enormous program, outreach, evangelistic program in a stadium. People come forward and you follow up after a year, a very small percentage of them, and I've done this on many occasions in our church. I say, how many of you came to Christ in a crusade, outreach type of event? Handful. Raise your hand. How many of you came to Christ because someone personally shared with you and walked you through it? And the enormity of the room that raises her hand. That's not to dismiss what folks do that are evangelists.

[Jack Hibbs]

No, of course not. Well, Rob, at least this is true in my family.

[Rob McCoy]

I'm going to get in trouble for that.

[Jack Hibbs]

Charlie. Rob. And for my family. The greatest evangelist has been canceled. Cancer in my family. Not again. Evangelism, we're commanded to do it. And it's one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I don't take anything away from that. But what we need to realize also is God uses so many different things. And the bottom line is that a lot of people come to Christ. You talk about those who raise their hands and those you talk to. The people I talk to by far have come to Christ because of crises. There was some crisis of faith in their life. Either they didn't have any or they needed some and they. They came searching.

[Rob McCoy]

I. I gotta ask you this because you're 14, 000, we're at 1400. And this is. And it's going to equate on both ends. Crisis. You know who's coming to my church now? People who would never darken the doors of the church because they're watching their country implode and they're in crisis and they have lost their liberty and they want to know its source and they want to know what to do.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's right.

[Rob McCoy]

That's evangelism.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's absolutely right on.

[Rob McCoy]

And we have answers.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah. And hope to prove that is that we've needed a bigger net on Sundays because of that truth.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Jack Hibbs]

And by the way, the people coming forward, I could not engineer this. Where. In a church, if you could have the perfect world where this. So many of this ethnic group come forward. Old and young and this ethnic group. Old and young and this. Old and young and poor and rich across the board. Exactly. You couldn't have asked for this. And that's exactly what's happening.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah.

[Jack Hibbs]

Perfect mix. Why? Because God is moving.

[Rob McCoy]

It's an awakening. Cross the country.

[Jack Hibbs]

It is awakening.

[Rob McCoy]

And the tragedy is some of our pastors think if they. If they remain silent, they think that they're going to offend someone. And Jesus said, I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. We're to contend against. Against this evil that is enslaving are people.

[Jack Hibbs]

It's still true. Rob. He said that those. When it comes to accepting Christ and then walking on with Christ, Jesus said that there will be mother against daughter.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Jack Hibbs]

And father against son because of that very reason. Because one wants truth. One doesn't. And so you have that reality. But you're exactly correct. We're watching people come. They're in the midst of a crisis. And I do believe if pastors would open up. The fishing is fantastic. The. The weather is amazing. See, Jack, are you nuts? It's in the middle of COVID You know what? It's never been a better time in 30 years of ministry. Why we're open.

[Rob McCoy]

You know who the greatest evangelists are for liberty that are now darkening the doors of the church? They would be considered left of center. They're skaters and surfers because their beaches have been closed and their skate parks have been filled with sand. And they're like, wait a minute.

[Jack Hibbs]

What?

[Rob McCoy]

Once I was able to do this. Now I can't. And that guy's telling me why and I haven't. I don't know a single person who's contracted Covid or died of it. And my entire. My entire joy has been taken. And now they're coming, going, what do we do? And some of the greatest proponents for. For this movement contending with the governor are these business owners that started coming to the church and they're saying with these open California rallies that they've asked me to come and speak at, they say, will you open in prayer? And they ask you to give an entire opening teaching on what liberty is from the scriptures. And they're hungry. They welcome you. I don't even have to ask.

[Jack Hibbs]

I don't remember when it was. Maybe you do because you're younger and you have a memory. But at some point in time, I had asked Charlie, hey, we need to really do something in California. We can do this. We can shake it up. And I think people like Candace Owen and others. Prager's in. He said they would be. Imagine if we just popped propped up somewhere. People are dying for direction and someone's going to get to them. It's either going to be the agenda of Hollywood or it's going to be Newsom's team. Someone's going to get them, and we need to get them. I do believe California is redeemable because I'm still breathing.

[Charlie Kirk]

One of the things the church has gotten so incredibly wrong, and I think misstepped, is I was told that politics will drive people away from the church. And what I found with our podcast and through Turning Point and what we're doing is we talk about a moral worldview, we have organized thinking, we have answers to complex problems, then people want to know the source, and we're actually bringing people. It's the Galatians 3 model that we talk about. And everyone has a different way of coming to Christ, but there are actually millions and millions of people out there that look at a chaotic world and a broken world. And then you might say something that makes a lot of sense governmentally or philosophically, and they say, well, you seem like you got your act together. What else do you believe? Or where does that come from? And the church is missing one of the greatest evangelistic opportunities there right now are probably 15 to 20 million Americans that would be saved by Christ if the church talked about politics.

[Rob McCoy]

Exactly.

[Charlie Kirk]

So there are 15 to 20 million souls that may or may not come to Christ right now in America because the way they were raised and the culture they're in, just the typical evangelistic music, big lights, all that. It doesn't there. Everyone is Made different by God. Everyone has different interests and likes. There are people out there. I communicate with them. They consider themselves to be hyper rational. Right. They consider I only. I only believe in things that work. And the apologetics movement, Lee Strobel has done great work with them. But. But however, there's also people that are. They look a lot more in day to day life. Show me something that works. Show me something that I can actually make sense with in my own life. And when I go to a college campus, I say, well, there's only two genders.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And some people mind and all that. And some people love it. And some people say, wow, I guess you're right. I've never heard that so deep. I know exactly right. Where did he come up with that? Two genders. I never thought of that.

[Rob McCoy]

And the enemy wants to keep us in the four walls of the church. They don't want us to have an influence in the universities. And it's to the point where we just allow them to push and whittle us down until we're just here and we're arguing over an ever decreasing piece of the pie and God says, no, get out there. Contend for truth.

[Jack Hibbs]

If you were Satan himself and you looked at the landscape of this world, what threatens you if you're Satan? Is it politics? I think Satan's pretty terrified of politics falling into the wrong hands. The good hands. Is it media? He's got that. The church. He's not threatened by the church. And the church used to be a terrorizing force of the kingdom of hell. The church used to cause hell to tremble when it prayed. Are there prayer meetings anymore? What? You mentioned the gospel earlier. You got people going in and out of the church. They can't even tell you what it is that they believe in. So how can you be saved if you cannot tell me the gospel?

[Rob McCoy]

I've been a pastor for almost 30 years and I have stood behind that wooden box and I have preached the entirety of the Gospels, all 66 books in entirety. And when you get to the passage where it says, you know, you'll be persecuted and reviled and blessed are you for my namesake. Right. I've read that. I've never faced it until I stepped into politics. That passage never meant more to me. When I stepped into politics and ran for the assembly, my. My car got keyed. I got death threats. Windows were broken. They sued me. I was pursued and followed. Inundated with obliterating mail. My own party came after me. I saw the worst of humanity. I was betrayed. I mean, it was awful what we went through. And, and I've never felt closer to the Lord, more prayerful and saw people's lives inspired and moved than when I stepped into the, into the public square. Right. Satan was never concerned about me being behind that wooden box as the walls were closing in on me.

[Jack Hibbs]

Rob, I got to tell you, the Christians, the real Christians I know In Washington, in D.C. and in Sacramento, their story is exactly that story. And I got to tell you, there's men and women in D.C. that I know that I admire them so much because I couldn't take that kind of heat. They love the Lord and they love this country and they love what's right. They're doing something about it. If it costs them their lives, they die every day. And I am blown away by them. I would love to see that more in the American Western church.

[Rob McCoy]

You know, what's killing them, though? And the reason why we're losing more and more representation in a constitutional republic is because the, the lack of proper teaching from the pulpits how to operate in legislation that you win by increments and because they're single issue and they're not broad understanding of how to move the, the needle. The minute one of these conservatives votes in a capacity they don't like not understanding all the dynamics of what they're up against, they immediately eviscerate them. We eat our own and then we. People are left abandoned and the church doesn't support them. They don't, they don't go out and, and walk precincts for them. They won't even let them come and let them pray over them in the services.

[Jack Hibbs]

I think it was Walter Martin who said, the Walter Martin. Now I'm going way back.

[Rob McCoy]

That was back when he was a corporal.

[Jack Hibbs]

He was the father of the apologetics movement of modern day. Walter Martin said, as I look around, I see the Christian church is the only one that shoots its wounded. Yep, that's got to change. But right now, a lot of, you know, a lot of pastors hide behind government orders with a zeal and a passion that I'd like to see for the Bible. All of a sudden, you know, we've got to obey. We've got to obey the president or we've got to obey the governor. We've got to obey the mayor. When I, I'd love to see that kind of commitment to obey.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, I have this question a lot for Christians, and it's an obedience to convenience. Yeah, I, I don't, I don't a Lot of Christians say they struggle with Romans 13. I don't, I mean, so let me just give you, let me just ask. Let's say you're a Bible believing Christian like Joseph Bardarenko. Bondarenko.

[Rob McCoy]

Bondarenko.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

I always mispronounced. Sorry, awesome evangelists in Russia. Did he, did he, Was he doing what the Bible told him to do? He was in daily defiance to Soviet law. Every day. Absolutely.

[Jack Hibbs]

Listen, sorry.

[Charlie Kirk]

Better yet, let me, let's, let's pretend that one of his converts, which he had many and disciples who was in the Soviet government, they go up to them and say, I need you to go to that village and go shoot 10% because they do it all the time. Go take your gun and go shoot 10% of the village. If you go do that, are you doing what God wants you to do?

[Jack Hibbs]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

So I, I find. No, it just doesn't really, it doesn't confuse me. Christians like, well, you have to.

[Rob McCoy]

The scripture says it's for our good. They're there for our good.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Jack Hibbs]

So the, the decree or suggestion is made from the halls of power. No more church. So we, we must obey them. So we're not going to do church anymore. So even though Jesus said, behold, I've set before you an open door, I firmly believe that pastors don't have the authority to close the doors of their church. That's my conviction. I think I could back it up biblically.

[Rob McCoy]

That said, and I'll stand with you

[Jack Hibbs]

on that, when you say, oh, you're, you're defying the government. Tell that to the church in Vietnam who meets in secret because they're getting their tongues cut off so that they don't kill them. They just cut their tongues off so they can't speak, but they meet anyway. Tell that to the church that meets underground in North Korea or in Saudi Arabia or Iran. It's illegal, punishable by death. They meet anyway. Are you going to tell me that you're going to tell them you're disobeying your government?

[Charlie Kirk]

Some would. Some Christians say that you're disobeying Romans 13. Stop meeting.

[Jack Hibbs]

I just have a.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's the extrapolation of their current argument, trying to delegitimize you guys.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, well, I wonder, I wonder about that DNA.

[Rob McCoy]

They're welcome to hold that position because they live in a pluralistic society where they have that freedom.

[Charlie Kirk]

You have the right to be wrong.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah, they have the, yeah. They have the liberty to be that

[Rob McCoy]

fool that for 244 years, men and women have been fighting for that. And they get to hold those views.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah.

[Rob McCoy]

And they have the First Amendment to be able to do that. And if you're a pacifist, people fought so that you could be a pacifist. Really convenient.

[Jack Hibbs]

It's true.

[Rob McCoy]

Yeah, it is.

[Jack Hibbs]

What kind of a. What kind of a government? It's never happened before where the founders are either a Christian or they know about the Christian life and they come to an agreement where it fits. The government that they're going to hand you fits for the most ardent believer and the most ardent atheist. Everybody gets the same rights. That's never happened before. Why? They were comfortable in their faith view, their worldview was good with them. To the point where, hey, you're an atheist, you can have the same rights that we do. We're not threatened by that.

[Rob McCoy]

Was it, wasn't it? We were sitting with Bob McEwen, and you look at 4% of the population. We've been here for 244 years. We represent 4% of the population. But because of the freedom we've been given in this form of government designed with a creator in mind and understanding that man is innately sinful. And you have to separate the powers because power wants to concentrate and it pushes it down to the individual to have that relationship with God. Complete freedom like they had in the wilderness. Ten Commandments, as simple as possible. And government was to be limited. And because of that freedom, you have skyscrapers around the world because an American invented the elevator. You have buildings in the desert because an American invented air conditioning. You have the Internet because an American invented it. You can fly there because American invented the airplane. You can go on and on and on because of this freedom. And then you say, well, no, you know, socialism. Socialism is more like Jesus. I'm sorry, what? That's a violation of two of the Ten Commandments. I shall not steal, now shall not covet. You're not doing your homework, Pastor. Dig into this stuff, right? Go beyond your myopic view and do something in a greater capacity for your people.

[Jack Hibbs]

Are they, Charlie? Are they that naive? Or is it that likes have become more important? It's the social pressure of Am I liked. And Jesus warned us about this. He warned us, beware when all men speak well of you. Yeah.

[Rob McCoy]

You went through this personally, Charlie.

[Charlie Kirk]

With which time?

[Rob McCoy]

With the pastor. Yeah, I meant, but with the pastor that came out against you on social

[Charlie Kirk]

media because he got beat. I don't say any names. Big pastor came out against me, even though he liked me once and decided he didn't like me as soon as he got called out for the fact he liked me.

[Jack Hibbs]

But we all watched that happen.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, that's okay. I, I'm honestly, I'm so at peace with it. He's the one that I think is having to pay a price for being a coward. But. Yeah, look.

[Rob McCoy]

What?

[Charlie Kirk]

What is it? Yes, I think, I think it's a couple things. Number one, they're poorly staffed. I think that's the first problem. I think that these churches are poorly staffed and they hire these young, incredibly naive, social media driven Christians that went to either Wheaton, Calvin or Taylor. And they do, they know nothing but economics, American history or culture. And they wear their skinny jeans. No offense. People that wear skinny jeans.

[Rob McCoy]

I got a pair on right now.

[Charlie Kirk]

I know, but they staff them all throughout their church and like a virus, it spreads. And that's the first problem. Number two, I think that they didn't do what you and Rob did for decades leading up to this moment and at least incorporated American first principles into their, you know, teaching throughout the last couple decades. So their congregation has been completely unaware of how to interact with any of these.

[Jack Hibbs]

There's, there's a lot to be said for what you just said because for me personally, I know same for you is for me. I spent, I spent decades in the secular world working for corporations. That, that preparation was fantastic for church ministry life.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Jack Hibbs]

And I learned early on from having a Marine Corps dad, You don't work, son, you don't eat.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's right.

[Jack Hibbs]

Well, my goodness, my dad was not a Bible believing man until a week before he died. But that's right out of the Bible. If a man does not eat, I mean work, neither shall he eat.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. So, well, some of these pastors, look, they, they entertain a very dangerous version of Thomas More's utopia where maybe we can have heaven on earth. There's nothing biblical about this. We can get really close to hell on earth. I mean, we really can. We don't know how close, but we can get in that direction. Let's put it that way. Just go to the Soviet Union. You just abolish villages and people starve. I mean, think about how inhumane it is if someone starves to death. And that is, that is weeks of crying out and suffering. I mean, starving to death is a, one of the most torturous ways you can kill somebody. 40 million people died of starvation in the Soviet Union in a decade, which

[Jack Hibbs]

is not an uncommon thing in communist China today.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no. And so you study again, the Past. I struggle with this because they should know better. They should and they don't. And they're weak and they're cowardly. And I don't give them excuses anymore. I don't. They decide they do not want to know. And they are ideologues more than they're actually in the pursuit of truth. If you are really defending the ideas of Marxist Leninism after what we have documented, this is no longer theory. This is no longer some fun. This is no longer, this is no longer like a coffee shop exercise. You're complicit, it just isn't now either. You are actually so naive and you should resign as a pastor then. You should. Absolutely. Because you are not in a position to guide people at all. Or you know better and you are doing the. You are carrying the water for the enemy because there, if you look at where Satan wants, what ideology does Satan actually want to see grow? He wants to see a belief and no God, because that is one of the greatest things he can possibly accomplish. Nietzsche carried more water for Satan than anyone could have possibly imagined, saying God is dead. Right. And there's a lot of different ways you can skew past that. But secondly, I think that Satan is a huge advocate in, in almost the evangelistic position of secular nihilistic humanism.

[Jack Hibbs]

Absolutely.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I mean so absolutely you believe in nothing. Nothing matters. All that really matters is your self indulgences. The government is just.

[Jack Hibbs]

And look at people, indulge in that. Look at people today who indulge in their choice, their pleasure. They're, they're almost automaton. Like.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's right.

[Jack Hibbs]

They're almost catatonic.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Jack Hibbs]

They are unplugged. There is no reality to them. They haven't sweat, they haven't suffered. I mean people, look, isn't this something we need to learn how to suffer. We need to learn how to eat. Look, maybe the economy is going to go that way, but the way, the way this whole thing's going, we might have.

[Charlie Kirk]

So here's one of the things you and I are going to talk about in just a moment which is the. What we're supposed to do for maturing people, or soon to be maturing people, is not to remove the, remove the dangers from the jungle. It's not to remove the jungle at all. And then put them in a safe box. And this, what I'm saying right now should be so incredibly self evident that it doesn't need to be said. But we're at a place where it needs to be said, where someone is 17 and 18, you shouldn't try to create an environment that is easier or even more relaxing or more comfortable for them. First of all, that is immoral, unrealistic, dangerous, and it actually is societally suicidal. What you should do is try to make that person the strongest possible person you can to be able to encounter the suffering, endure the suffering, be able to have an aim so that they can get through those moments and they can almost have a heroic journey through it, so that they can understand that the suffering is inevitable. And I'm now a stronger person. The university does the exact opposite.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's right.

[Charlie Kirk]

The university actually tries to say, you know what? The suffering is not inevitable. It's not. What's wrong is the society. So let's try to remove all the different systems of suffering. This is anti biblical, it's anti God, it's antichrist, all of it. Right. It's anti Christian.

[Jack Hibbs]

They coddle them, they wrap them in bubble wrap and put a helmet on them and then have them go out.

[Charlie Kirk]

And parents do this too?

[Jack Hibbs]

No idea.

[Charlie Kirk]

Parents do this too. And I talk about this a lot. And parents have way over pander to their kids. They helicopter them, they. They do them a disservice. And then we Wonder why they're 20 years old and they cannot hear an opinion they don't like without screaming belligerently. And so to finish the point, you then, you now have an entire generation of Christian pastors that have been raised in this entire world where they have been deceptively taught a. I want to be very careful the way I say this. Let's just say a false intersection of the Bible and Marxist doctrine.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I know these documents very well. I know what drives these people. And there is a part, I think it's might in first or Second Peter about beware of false prophets. Use it.

[Jack Hibbs]

Second Peter, chapter two and three.

[Charlie Kirk]

I can't think of a better example of that.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yep.

[Rob McCoy]

If you read the book the Gift of Pain and it was written by a doctor that dealt with all the lepers. Amazing book.

[Jack Hibbs]

No, I have not.

[Rob McCoy]

So he says that, that if you want to live in a world where there's no pain, go to a leper colony.

[Jack Hibbs]

That's right.

[Charlie Kirk]

They're all.

[Rob McCoy]

Because Hansen's disease takes away all feeling numb. And they don't die from the disease itself. What they die of is infection because they don't know when they're stepping on a nail or burning their hand because pain is gone and they're just rotting. And so when we take away this gift from God of pain in a fallen world to show us that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing. And it's what Aristotle calls that doing good and feeling good. Feeling good is you look at someone who's struggling with, with bondage to heroin and the feeling good thing is to give them more heroin. The do good is to take it away from them. No, let's give them needles. And now you've got all these walking zombies that are feeling no pain, but they're going nowhere in life and they're nodding in the streets and defecating themselves. And we call that good government. That's awful. We're responsible for what we're doing to these citizens and you don't enable them. A man who doesn't, doesn't care for his family. You, you have consequences. You have responsibility. There is, there's a. You must work. This is what we're supposed to do on this earth.

[Jack Hibbs]

God made us that way. The self worth and value. How many kids would be lifted up out of depression if they, if they actually worked, if they had chores, if they sweat, and I mean sweat, actual sweat work and had to get a callus, a callus on your hands is a great thing.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so I'm going to do Nassim Taleb to service here, but he wrote in a phenomenal book called Antifragile and I never liked the title, I still don't because I think it doesn't do service to how phenomenal. The analysis that he puts forward where he frames that most of the world is fragile. And the only word he could think of that would be the opposite of fragility would be antifragile. And his argument is that things that are anti fragile survive and they get stronger and they have meaning and responsibility, whereas most of society tries to create a hyper extension of fragility. And if you're able to actually be anti fragile like the greatest generation was, no matter what you throw at me, we are going to survive no matter what it is, no matter what. Two world wars. Yep, fine. Great Depression, bring it on. Right. Korean War, after that one, we're good. And, and so there is an acceptance of a toughness that sets in. Right. There's a mentality of, well, don't lessen the pressures on my shoulders, let's get my shoulders stronger so I can be able to endure that even better. And we have done such an incredible disservice to generations now. And I think for Christians as well,

[Jack Hibbs]

it's that what, what, what A pastor does in bad teaching to a church. It's what a parent does to a kid when it's like, my child would never. Not my child. If the kid comes home and says, you know what? This is what happened, man. I don't know about you guys, but when I didn't want to come home and tell my parents what happened because the first thought from my dad was, what'd you do?

[Rob McCoy]

Well, your dad was patriotic. He'd lay down stripes and you'd see stars.

[Charlie Kirk]

But there's also, look, there's a much deeper point. What you're saying though, is that you respected your father because there was discipline and order and hierarchy. Right. And eventually through the maturation process, that hierarchy actually goes on its face where you actually end up becoming the caregiver for your father. And that's biblical. However, what's happened now is we now have entire social media movements that try to instill, let's say, disintegration for an eight year old against the father, mother, hierarchy. Rebel against your. Not just rebel. Rebel is not even the right word. It is almost revolution against your. Create a revolution against your parents.

[Rob McCoy]

Support them, turn them in.

[Charlie Kirk]

There are 14 year olds that say, I hate my parents. They're a bunch of racists. They raise money from the social media companies and they're getting emancipated at age 15 and they're leaving their parents. And this is getting glamorized all across. No, it's getting glamorized.

[Jack Hibbs]

It's in Matthew's gospel. Jesus actually talked about that.

[Charlie Kirk]

So in closing, Rob and Jack, before we have to go into the next fun thing that we're doing, what can Christians do if they're stuck in a church that is being led by a coward or by a con man?

[Jack Hibbs]

By the way, the next thing that we're going to go do, we could get arrested.

[Charlie Kirk]

Great.

[Jack Hibbs]

Isn't amazing?

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, today, Today. Yeah, I don't really care.

[Jack Hibbs]

Is that something?

[Charlie Kirk]

I tweeted it out. At this point I'm just like, yeah,

[Rob McCoy]

your question is what you.

[Charlie Kirk]

But they actually want to arrest us because they understand the prince. They actually understand martyrdom. And they know that if they arrested us, that would be such an unbelievable mistake.

[Jack Hibbs]

Yeah. Today the church has to be led by pastors who are willing to divorce themselves from peer pressure, from likability, to have an actual vision, a passion, a calling from God that is worthy of their life. When you have a pastor who's dead, then you're going to find a church that's alive.

[Charlie Kirk]

Wow.

[Rob McCoy]

I would take it one step further, too. I love that Jack that's like, just made that up. Yeah. That dog will hunt. And good preachers bar great preachers steal. So I'm taking that. I would add this, that in these trying times when, when, when I watch men like Jack and others that inspire me, my biggest struggle. Charlie. And I want to say this to all the folks in Christendom to avoid it being about politics completely. Remember this and never forget this. It's. People are not the enemy. They're the opportunity. So when you stand, stand in humility that you're doing it for the people that revile you and despise you and you're standing so that they can protest in that freedom, and that's why you're doing it. Be broken in that regard. This isn't a pride issue. And be willing to give everything up for their freedom, even though they despise you for what you're doing. Do it anyways because you love them.

[Charlie Kirk]

These are two American heroes, everybody. Pastor Jack, Pastor Rob. Their churches are open. They're flourishing. They're bringing people to Christ. And like you said, maybe these more and more pastors are coming around. I'm telling you, not enough.

[Rob McCoy]

They will.

[Charlie Kirk]

Some are digging into the wrong direction. And that's fine if you go to a bad church. I shouldn't say a bad church. That's not the right way to say it. If you go to a church led by someone who is currently being deceived, I've made the opinion that it's okay to withdraw and find a church that someone is being led by someone confident. You got two good Southern California options right here, one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. So just leave the church, pull your tithes, put it to someone that wants to actually fight for what is good in the world.

[Rob McCoy]

Cheryl, think. Share all good things with those who instruct you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Don't keep subsidizing people that are confused because your withdrawal from that actually might bring them to the right direction. Good work. All right, thank you everybody. Email us freedom charlie kirk.com freedom charlie kirk.com get involved with Turning Point USA. Tpusa.com consider supporting our program. Charliekirk.com support we do 12 to 14 podcasts a week. Help pays for our production team and everything. Thanks so much, everybody. God bless. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Please help out Jack and Rob. You can email me freedom charliekirk.com I can give you options on how to help them. We're going to post some [e-mail] Deal to help rob and Jack, who are under attack and being threatened with arrest right here, right now. Please consider getting involved with TurningPoint [e-mail] thank you guys so much for, for listening. God bless.