Podcast Summary

The Charlie Kirk Show

Episode: Was Jesus a Catholic? Thoughtful Theology with Michael Knowles
Date: August 8, 2021
Host: Charlie Kirk
Guest: Michael Knowles

Episode Overview

This lively and thoughtful episode features Charlie Kirk in conversation with Michael Knowles, a devout Catholic and conservative commentator. The topic on the table: "Was Jesus a Catholic?" The conversation covers the theological, historical, and cultural differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, the influence of both on Western civilization, the meaning of church authority and tradition, and broader questions about liberty, authority, and standards in society. Rather than a debate, the episode is a wide-ranging discussion between friends with deep respect for each other’s views.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Cancel Culture, Standards, and Free Speech

• Michael Knowles introduces his new book, "Speechless," and discusses the idea that every society has taboos and standards, making some degree of "cancel culture" inevitable (03:57).
• Knowles and Kirk debate when and how to set limits—especially regarding controversial or obscene speech and the protection of children.
• The historical tradition of both left and right setting cultural standards is explored.
  • Memorable quote:

    "All societies have standards and taboos. This is true everywhere. Even John Locke... called for very stringent standards." – Michael Knowles (03:58)

• Kirk advocates for practical judgment and caution, quoting Antonin Scalia:

  • “We need to decide very carefully. So we do need prudence here.” – Michael Knowles (05:40)

• The pair critique modern libertarian definitions of liberty:
  • Kirk: “The true definition of liberty is not the ability to do whatever you want, it’s the freedom to do what you ought to do.” (09:32)

2. Libertarianism and Conservatism

• The lasting influence of libertarian ideals versus traditional conservatism within the movement.
• Knowles critiques modern ‘lolbertarians’ as more interested in being ‘the cool kid’ than in real philosophy:
  • “They’re not people who have read the classical liberal tradition. They saw a sebastian meme, that’s what I believe.” – Charlie Kirk (11:01)
• Discussion of Ben Shapiro (“more libertarian”), Matt Walsh (“more in your camp”), and the varied politics of other conservative thinkers (12:04–12:34).

3. Who Should Set Societal Standards?

• Kirk asks if modern society’s commitment to non-intervention in social issues makes liberty unsustainable (08:54).
• Knowles argues that the so-called "laissez-faire" stance of liberals in the 1960s was strategic, to later impose new rigid standards:
  • “They pretended to be laissez-faire for some period of time, and now they’re instituting their vision, and we bought all of their stupid slogans.” – Michael Knowles (14:30)

4. Was Jesus a Catholic? Theological Roots and Church History

• The main event: Kirk, a Protestant evangelical, and Knowles, a Catholic, dive into Christianity’s origins and whether Jesus could be called a "Catholic."
  • Kirk: “So why should everyone become Catholic?” (15:39)
• Knowles’s theological defense:
  • “Mankind needs sacrament. Mankind needs the regular interaction of the metaphysical and the physical, which you get in its fullest expression in the Catholic Church.” (16:46)
• The pair debate the Catholic Church’s formative role in Western civilization, Protestant critiques of Catholic hierarchy, and the spread of the Bible after the invention of the printing press:
  • Kirk: “The printing press allowed the Bible to be widespread… because it wasn’t being gatekept by priests.” (18:28)
  • Knowles: “The printing press is not a consequence of Protestantism. It's actually the cause of Protestantism in many ways.” (18:13)
• Kirk acknowledges the Protestant ethos of independent self-governance and “natural rights,” and challenges whether Catholicism could have led to the same cultural developments.

5. Church Authority, The Papacy, and Apostolic Succession

• The importance of Peter and the doctrine of apostolic succession is discussed:
  • Kirk: “So when did Jesus go to Rome?”
  • Knowles: “He sent Peter and Paul to die in Rome... His apostles who founded his church did.” (23:47)
• The meaning of “ecclesia” and the nature of the early church as a decentralized, spontaneous community (24:01–24:22).
• The role of church authority in settling doctrinal disputes, and the function of the Pope, bishops, and councils (25:54–26:24).

6. Sacraments, Confession, and the Role of Mary

• Debate over whether the confession of sins and Eucharist should be reserved for the clergy or accessible to all believers (28:07–29:09).
• The Protestant emphasis on the “priesthood of all believers” vs. Catholic tradition of ecclesiastical authority.
• Kirk challenges the veneration of Mary and the doctrine of the saints, while Knowles draws analogies to asking friends for prayers and makes a spirited defense of Mary’s role (32:28–35:10).

7. The Protestant Reformation’s Impact

• The two spar playfully over whether the Reformation was a net benefit for Western civilization (21:09–23:29, 35:42–36:02).
• Kirk stresses its importance for modern rights and self-governance; Knowles sees value but frames it as a “revolution” rather than a “reformation.”
  • “Maybe it made Catholic tradition healthier.” – Charlie Kirk (33:59)
• Discussion of Tyndale, the democratization of the Bible, and the value as well as the dangers (34:06–34:16).

8. Mutual Respect and Closing

• The episode ends on a note of mutual respect and affection, with both men pledging to “pray for each other’s souls.”
  • “I’ll pray for your soul.” – Charlie Kirk (36:57)
  • “Yes, I will pray intercessory prayers for Charlie.” – Michael Knowles (36:58)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I'm the preeminent civil rights leader in this country, all right? And I demand respect.” – Michael Knowles (03:42), joking about being a "civil rights icon" by beating progressive authors on the bestseller list.
• “If liberty means the erasure of all limits, then we can’t have any standards or anything like that.” – Michael Knowles (10:29)
• “I actually wanted to play devil’s advocate more, but it’s really hard when you’re remote because you don’t want to interrupt your guest.” – Charlie Kirk (02:41)
• “I’m bound by my faith to believe that the Catholic church is divinely instituted, but… no other organization conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight.” – Michael Knowles quoting Hilaire Belloc (15:55)
• “Was Jesus a Catholic?” – the titular (and unresolved) question, explored in depth (15:39 onward).
• “I think people in the evangelical world underappreciate Mary.” – Charlie Kirk (32:54)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:57] Cancel culture, free speech, and societal standards
• [09:32] Defining liberty—libertarian vs. conservative thought
• [15:39] The great Catholic vs. Protestant discussion begins: “Why should everyone become Catholic?”
• [18:13] Printing press & the spread of the Bible
• [20:36] Protestant denominations, tradition, and leftward drift
• [22:31] The American founding and Protestant vs. Catholic DNA
• [24:01] Meaning of "church"/"ecclesia" in scriptural context
• [27:29] Papacy, hierarchy, and early church structure
• [29:38] The Inquisition, doctrine, and the need for authority
• [31:13] Number of books in the Bible (Protestant vs. Catholic canon)
• [34:06] Tyndale and arbitrating the Bible for the masses
• [36:57]–[37:02] Lighthearted mutual "prayer" for each other’s souls

Tone & Language

The conversation is spirited, often humorous and playful, but deeply engaged. Both speakers use accessible language interwoven with theological and historical references. The episode is notable for genuine curiosity and mutual respect, as well as good-natured ribbing across denominational lines.

This summary captures the key themes, arguments, and dynamics of the episode, making it informative and digestible for listeners (and non-listeners) alike.