← The ChatGPT Experiment - Simplifying Chat GPT For Curious Beginners
The ChatGPT Experiment - Simplifying Chat GPT For Curious Beginners
EP 42: Taking Agency Creative To A New Level w/ Jeremy Somers from NotContent.ai
00:58:26
In this episode of The ChatGPT Experiment, I’m joined by Jeremy Somers, founder of the AI-assisted creative agency NotContent.ai. Simply put, this is an absolutely fascinating conversation. In our talk, we dive into how AI is...
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- [00:00]
Kerry Weston
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- [00:06]
Jeremy Summers
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- [00:10]
Kerry Weston
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Unknown
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Jeremy Summers
So you flattered me earlier and you know, like, you've not come across anyone who's doing this stuff in, in your world. I still haven't come across anyone who's doing this stuff at the same level that, that we're able to play with and the clients that we're doing and you know, like the money that we're making, like all of the things. No, still, no one's out there doing this stuff.
- [00:54]
Kerry Weston
Hey there. Welcome to the ChatGPT experiment, a podcast where we take all that confusing ChatGPT stuff and break it down so even Grandma could understand. If you're a curious beginner, well, you're in the right place as we'll help you understand what ChatGPT is, how others are using it, and practical takeaways that you can use right away. It's gonna be fun, it's gonna be informative and maybe surprising when you find out how helpful ChatGPT can be. All right, let's get this thing started. Here's your host, Kerry Weston.
- [01:27]
Unknown
Hey there, you curious folks. Episode 42. Good to be back. There's a little bit of a gap, wasn't there, between episode 41 and episode 42? As I shared with you in the last episode, I was going to take some time off in the summer. Just so happens that my summer extended into October. It's been fun, it's been busy. I hope you had a good time as well. Well, listen, this interview I did back in the spring and I saved it for when I came back because it's absolutely fascinating and it is the one that blew my mind as an agency owner. I've been in the creative space 25 years. What Jeremy Summers has shared with me in this episode is absolutely mind boggling and it's literally nothing I've ever seen. And I'm going to take a guess it's nothing you've ever heard or seen either. It's absolutely Mind bending. It's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. And this is not going to be a practical tactical takeaway episode where you're going to learn a new tip in ChatGPT, but what it is going to do is it's going to show you an amazing set of creative elements that are coming together and doing some things that I didn't really think was possible at this point, but Jeremy's proving me wrong and showing me otherwise. I'm also going to share some links to Jeremy's stuff. He provided some visual assets so you can kind of see what he's talking about, because you really do have to see what he's talking about in order to realize how fascinating this is. Absolutely fascinating. And it's a. I think it's a window to a world that is not too far off.
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Right.
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Jeremy's proving that there are things that we didn't think were possible that are happening right now. So the scale at which this grows is going to be very interesting to watch. But I want to say it's not all about technology taking over. Because one of the most fascinating things about what Jeremy's going to share with you is not just how he's using AI to create creative assets and saving a bunch of time, money and resources while doing outstanding top level stuff, but it's how he's still incorporating and getting the most out of the creative expertise of the humans that he works with. Because what he's done is he stripped away the busy work and he's allowed room for the creative excellence to take over and be the priority. Right. So if you think about your own world, how many times do we spend too much time in the busy phase and not enough time in the insight, expertise, adding value phase? Right. We're so busy doing that sometimes we strip away that time that we could be spending adding a little bit more value to it. So one of the things that I'm really impressed with what Jeremy's doing is he's not saying that technology is more important than the human. What he's saying is that technology allows the human to be more important. And I think that's just a fascinating takeaway from this conversation. One of many. One of many. So episode 42, Jeremy Summers from a firm called Not Content. When I talked with him, he was out in Hawaii doing some amazing things, as you are about to hear. Okay, so let's get to that interview. As always, let me know if you have any questions. If you've got a great story, reach out to me. Let's get you on the Show. I want to share some amazing things that are happening. It's a crazy time for ChatGPT, OpenAI AI Creative as a whole. I know you've been busy doing some wonderful things. So reach out to me. Let's talk about it. Let's get your story on air. Okay? So until we talk again, here's the conversation I had with Jeremy. Do stay curious and we will talk soon. All right.
- [05:12]
Hey, Jeremy, welcome to the show, man.
- [05:15]
Jeremy Summers
Thanks for having me, Carrie.
- [05:17]
Unknown
Yeah, so I like to start every interview by giving the users some context so they can kind of understand your perspective. So would you just mind giving everyone a rundown who you are, what you're doing and who you are doing it for these days?
- [05:34]
Jeremy Summers
Yes, of course. So my name is Jeremy Summers. I run a new world agency, an AI assisted creative agency called Not Content AI. A lot of people read it as Not Content AI AI AI. Which is. It's the way that I sort of treat things around this. These parts where I'm like, nothing is what it seems like. We're in this brand new world. Right. My background, going in reverse chronological order, is from an AI assisted creative agency to a traditional creative agency, which I ran for close to 10 years, focusing on branding and design, mostly in CPG, fashion and lifestyle. Prior to that, I run a leg. I ran a luxury clothing brand for a dozen years, which I started about 2009, whilst I was still working at that stage in some of the very first digital agencies in Australia, working on clients like Samsung, Microsoft and Nike and Pepsi, et cetera, et cetera. And then prior to that, I was a graphic designer and had my own photography business. And so essentially, you know what I'm getting at, it's creative all the way back to. To being a top.
- [06:52]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [06:53]
Jeremy Summers
So that's. That's where I am now. Not Content has been around as an agency for close to two years, which, as we know, in AI terms is about 900,000 years. And I sort of got very obsessed very early on with like the very first Dali white paper from OpenAI, where there was no access to anything. I just sort of read this thing and had this very sort of cinematic moment where I saw the future of all creative and everything that I'd ever done in my career and personally as a creative as well, I saw how everything was about to change. So I got really obsessed with that. And as soon as we got access to any sort of tools, no matter how terrible they may have been, about two years ago, I was hell bent on figuring out what this means. For me as a business person and entrepreneur and creative all mixed into one. And so I was like, well, the best way to do it is to learn by doing. And, and so not content was born, as I say, close to two years ago. And I managed to start convincing clients that this new thing that no one had really even heard about yet was going to be the best thing that ever happened to them. And so I just started to move forward from there. The brands that come to work with this have been anyone from like Adidas and Google and Yahoo to smaller auto operator brands. Everything from lifestyle and really sexy things like Tommy Hilfiger down to SAS tools and things that are data driven at work in the cloud and that sort of thing. We are style agnostic. And I'll probably talk about how we're many things agnostic in the world of AI as we go forward through this conversation, but we don't have a specific niche that we deal with, at least not yet. You know, AI is, allows us to do anything for anyone in a myriad of different ways and outputs and media. And as long as we are creative at the core, we can, that can be applied to any industry or any niche.
- [08:49]
Unknown
Okay, so let me just take a breath. You take a breath. I said I'll take a breath, but you take a breath. That was long. Good for you, man. You unpacked a lot there. So let's go back to the very first thing you said. A New World Order agency. So what does a New World Order Agency look like?
- [09:06]
Jeremy Summers
And that's what I've been setting out and trying to figure out these last couple of years. I really believed at the beginning of, of trying to construct the, what the hierarchy is and the how. I'm missing the word. And this is the worst time ever to be missing a word.
- [09:26]
Unknown
Okay, what I, what I'd ask you to do, because I don't know what you're about to say, but I also know that we've got a lot of listeners that aren't in technical agency space. So the simpler the better. If you just pretend I'm an 8th grader, I think that would be awesome. So if I were to sort of literally ask you, like, what do you, what do you, what's your agency literally doing these days?
- [09:45]
Jeremy Summers
Okay, so what we do is we produce creative campaigns, advertising and content for brands. And, and we do that at a 10x amplification of the output. And we do it in a, something like a 90% reduction in the time that it would normally take to do these things. So whether this be a photo shoot for your product in a studio. We now don't go to studio. We don't have a photographer or an assistant or a lighting setup or. Wait, wait, wait.
- [10:16]
Unknown
All right, time out. All right, I'm going to blow my whistle. Timeout, time out. I got my referee shirt on. Jeremy, I think I just heard you say that we can do photo shoots without a photographer and without a studio. So I need to dig into that. What are we using?
- [10:32]
Jeremy Summers
Correct? What I've been really focused on is in the initial stages, we called it Bye Bye Studio. And I really saw this workflow of taking something where I've worked with products from fashion and sunglasses to CPT and juice brands and snacks and you know, any hair and makeup and everything under the sun over the course of my career. And I'm like the one thing when we look at product photography. So this is, I'm talking about straight up product photography, but creative, right? If you want to send your product off, you know, you can send it off to one of these services that charge you 15 or $20 a shot and get your e commerce product shot back, right? On a white background. It's nice and clean and clear front, back side, cool. You can send that off in the mail and do that. Right. And it's cheap. There's no better or cheaper way to do that currently. Right. What we're set out, what we set out to do is to do the things that your social media needs and that your newsletter needs and that your actual output, anything other than your product page on your e commerce store needs to be creatively thought about and on brand and have the aesthetic that you guys have been building as a company, right? And so generally that means going into a studio and having a set, you know, more often these, not these days, especially with like direct to consumer type stuff. We're looking at these cool little prints in a set and then ingredients and cut up oranges or whatever it happens to be. Right. I have been on many, many, many of those shoots and I'm like there's got to be a better way than having 11 or 12 people in a room for an entire day to what ends up being, you know, six or eight shots of your product on a table with good looking stuff around it. And AI is the perfect, the perfect use case for doing that and taking the time that it takes in the organization because you're not just there for it. That's not 11 or 12 people's time for the day. That's prep time for photographer and, and for the people who are coming to help with the set, right? Set design, styling, etc. Etc. It's the studio's time. It's the, like, all the things, right? Right. This is not just a single moment in time where it takes to get a single product shot out. Whereas we created a workflow using AI tools and traditional creative tools, Adobe Suite and 3D tools and that sort of thing to produce that, but in a very creative way.
- [12:51]
Unknown
So you take, you take the product. If I can break it down, you must take a photo. You have to have a photo or two of the actual product and then you're running it through these prompts, filters and tools. That takes these, takes the product, puts it in various situations, add elements to it, makes it a beauty shot and spits it out on the other end without all the people involved.
- [13:08]
Jeremy Summers
Yes and no. So what that process that you exactly just described is a process where there's a bunch of AI services that popped up to do that, upload your photo, right? Generally a single photo of the front of your, let's say, shampoo bottle. And that's what it'll do. It'll use AI to prompt a background for sitting on the sand on the beach or whatever, and try to integrate it, try to add some shadows using AI tools and then spit it out the other end. That, to me, loses all the creativity. It doesn't give you much of an option. You're still taking an initial one. You have to have an initial photograph, right? So either you're shooting it in your house or in some sort of small studio setup with your phone or your, you know, your consumer camera, or you're still sending it off to a professional service to get it shot. I don't want to shoot the product because you also get a finite amount of output. So we 3D model all of our products and we run it through a 3D process and we add texture and etc. Etc. And that enables us to do whatever we want, lighting wise. And it also enables us to produce the final creative unencumbered by anything that came before it. And by anything that came before it, I mean the product photo itself. When you take a picture of, whether in your studio or at home or with an iPhone or a beach, whatever, the lighting is set for that product, right? You get this one thing, the lighting is there, the focus is set is there, et cetera. With a 3D model, we can do anything what we, that we want. And so we work backwards from creative, and we can produce it in any setting in Any sort of lighting, etc. Etc. And then we bring the 3D model and then we composite them together.
- [14:41]
Unknown
All right, so you start, you must, you have to start with a photo of the product to begin. Like you have to have a subject.
- [14:47]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah, we take whatever the client has, whether it is studio photography or, or it's. A lot of stuff is pre production, so it comes from like photography samples from the factory or that they've got in house, in the office. Just take iPhone photos and then we take the production specs and that's how we 3D model it.
- [15:04]
Unknown
So can you share with me when we're done, examples of various processes and what they look like? Because I'm trying to get my head around this. This is very technical and I get it and I've got an AV studio here, but we don't get into 3D modeling. And you're getting closer to CAD and all that kind of stuff. The ability for me to actually grasp this, I need a visual. So if you share those visuals with me, I'll post them in the show notes. Because I think what you're saying is it's fascinating. Okay, so so many other questions. The, the ability for you to do this. Now there's a little bit of. You said there's a 10 time. It takes a little bit of upload. I mean it takes a little upfront effort to get the 3D modeling done and that kind of stuff. But once you have that, you're then a bill. You're able to do amazing things in amazing time. Right. So modeling being one, photography being one. What's another example of services that this new world agency produces?
- [15:57]
Jeremy Summers
So when we look at moving away from product led campaigns or content and into the world of lifestyle or what we call world building, what is the world around your brand? Right. What is. And for most brands, whether they're big or small, it is what does your Pinterest page look like? Right. Who are the brands that you aspire to be? What are the images and the campaigns? And when you bring a mood board to, to a photographer or to a creative team or your design team or whatever, what is that mood board? AI gives us the opportunity to create that mood board, but have it be your content and for you to be the ones to be able to produce it and in your style and in your way and be able to craft it. So that's like the really easy way to be able to describe that. We call it world building. So it often doesn't have anything to do with the product itself. But it has everything to do with the other types of content that you may be putting out as a brand, right? Educational and informative content, aspirational and inspirational types of content, right. For a lot of our brands in skincare and hair care, there's a, you know, a lot of the, the brands are very much like science backed these days, right? We're using a combination of jojoba oil and aloe. And the chemical reaction that takes place is this. Right? Showing that visually and describing that is really important for them as brands because it is the baseline of their, like you can trust us as a product, but showing it visually is near impossible, even if you have access to a photo studio or whatever. Like we're trying to show things on a molecular level or the ingredients of something. You know, how do we do that? So, so that's one thing that we've really sort of come into our own is this really specific type of content that we offer for a bunch of brands which, as we call it, sort of just like science, science, science. But things that either you would have to go and, you know, to take a super macro or a microscopic shot of, you know, orange pulp or something like that, AI can now do it in an instant. And we've created a stylistic model to be able to do that through stable diffusion. And then we, you know, that's one category, right? The other categories, aspirational and inspirational, are things that very few brands, unless you're a big multinational brand or doing, you know, generally north of, you know, five or $10 million a year, don't have access to and don't have the budgets to go out to a place and shoot something. You know, I was in fashion for a dozen years and that was what we had to do, right? And so I've been on many, many fashion shoots where you're traveling a team of eight or nine people or 10 or 11 people, whatever it happens to be, to a remote place and then doing a job over the course of three days. And what you get out of that is about 12 different images, right? Like the cost, you know, your cost per asset for these things is crazy. You definitely never look at your cost per asset because you would never go back and shoot again. But it is what's required to build a brand in. For us, it was in the luxury space, luxury fashion, right? So we look at Chanel and you know, Louis Vuitton are these people who are spending millions of dollars a year on things that often don't show, they don't need to show the product Right. They do because it's fashion. But oftentimes it's just a matter of spending the money and doing this amazing thing. And that is a massive part of brand building. We now are giving all brands, no matter your size, access to be able to do that.
- [19:14]
Unknown
And I've heard a lot about products in world and environment and elements. Are we including people in this?
- [19:23]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:26]
Unknown
So we're rendering. We're rendering people.
- [19:29]
Jeremy Summers
We're rendering people. We're rendering every type of creative campaign that you could possibly think of. We've got it down to a pretty close to perfect at the moment workflow and process for stills. And we've been doing a lot more video using, utilizing a much heavier combination, combination of AI and traditional tooling. But for the still stuff, world building, product studio, aspirational, inspirational, all these types of content at a stills level, we've got it down to. We could do pretty much anything. And this is again, your next question is going to be, well, what tools are you using for this?
- [20:08]
Unknown
And so I wasn't going to go, that wasn't that deep because I want to keep it at a higher level. But I'm already blown away by what you're saying. So I don't want to. I don't want to pack anything more into the brain because I'm having a hard time processing what you're telling me. Because, Jeremy, what you're really. What you're really talking about right now is the essence of a company that starts, works and finishes in a virtual space that's only possible within the last year or two. Like this. When you call it new age, when you call it new Age, this is literally the model for moving forward for a lot of businesses. I've talked to a dean of business that's involved in the innovation space, and they're talking about how to consult entrepreneurs to launch with low friction, low cost, low cash burn, low resources. Because there's so much resource. I mean, there's so many tools available now at scale. But you are literally the first person that I've talked to who has adopted this in practice and is actually commercializing what you're doing. So I am pausing because I am. I feel like I am talking to the next level that I hadn't seen yet. Right. I haven't seen yet. So you're the first person in my world that I've seen kind of grabbing this at this level and materializing it into a business. So kudos to you for doing that. And I can't wait to see what you Send me for samples so I can share with the listeners too, because this is the world that I live in. I've had an agency for 25 years and I'm just, I'm absolutely fascinated by where you're going. So let me, let me back up a little bit because I could, I could geek out on the industry stuff all day long, but I want to keep it relevant to the topic at hand because I'm going to come back to it, though. But talk to me about it. Sounds like the sophistication of what you're doing is so far past what we call the large language models, the chatgpts, the Perplexities. Right. The Geminis. How are you, Are you using any of that stuff in your, in your workflow? Are you getting into. Yeah, okay, so let's talk about that. So let's talk about chat or whatever. How are you using what we would have access to as ChatGPT, for instance, and some of the work that you're doing on a regular basis?
- [22:16]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah, let me give you, I'll give you a perfect example. So we have a client previously called Inc. File, which you may or may not know of. It's, you know, you. It was always inc file.com and they've just rebranded to, to a new name called Busy. But basically you go. It's a service where you go online and you register your LLC and then they can provide you with a virtual office and they do all the filings for you for your Delaware, etc. Etc. Right. Let's, you know, and then if anyone from infrastructure, you guys know that it's a super dry and boring business. So this is a really good example for how, you know, yeah, we're doing Tommy Hilfiger and we're doing added assets that are, etc. But we're also doing things which. How do we revolutionize content production for someone who is at the, at a level where they don't consider themselves, you know, something we call it sexy boring. And we split everything sort of down this middle line for. And that's offensive to some people, but, you know, if you're in a boring business, at least compared to Tommy Hilfiger. So Inc File came to us and they have been around for, you know, a couple of decades and they have so much content and they're, you know, sort of the number one online destination for registering your business, for getting the documents, for partnerships, for all the suite of services. Right. And they had always used stock photography and they didn't have the budgets nor the internal Wherewithal, the team, the talent or the time to produce the amount of content that they need. They produce, you know, hundreds if not thousands of different articles every year, as well as social content. And they have a podcast like their tentacles reach quite far. So there's this huge ecosystem of things that they need visual content for. And they came to us and we said, look, yeah, we can produce this content for you, but you know what's even cooler would be to produce a system that AI can assist us to produce the content on a much greater level. So what that ends up looking like. So like, let's skip forward about three, three and a half months it took us to sort of figure out how we were going to do this. We now have. So at the minute everything is in, in a custom chat GPT, custom GPT model that we built, right? So at the minute the endpoint looks like. So when we go to do this month's content or next month's content, right? And we have an outflow pause right there.
- [24:43]
Unknown
Just so we're defining content, the output as defined by content written, graphic.
- [24:49]
Jeremy Summers
Both, yes, so written and graphic. So the content that. So we first we have a content strategy that we built for them, right? Content strategy says that one, you need supplemental content, visual content, stills, imagery to aid all of the things that you guys are writing in house, right? Two, we want to start telling stories across social and across our podcast, etc. Etc. So we want to look at entrepreneurs and anyone who's ever seen, you know, one of these sort of like day in the life of videos, right? Those things take a lot to produce. So we were like, look, we don't, we're not there with video yet, but we could create a similar section of that content a day in the life of an entrepreneur without having to go anywhere and take a film crew and film someone and, you know, interrupt someone's life, etc. Etc. Now these people are going to be made up characters and we could talk about that later in terms of real people versus AI generated people or stories. I won't get into that now, but they were like, okay, cool. We want to talk about entrepreneurial spirit. We want to talk about the grind and the hustle and all of the things that are true to the entrepreneur who comes to busy to solve their basic LLC filing and all that sort of stuff, right? So we built a custom GBT that now we go in and I can just hit. I gave it a prompt that says GPT go or Inc file go, whatever the client name is, and it Asks me a series of, about, I think eight questions about a character, an entrepreneur who would go about to create. So it asked me these questions. I built it so that I can give it really basic information and it has the history of every character that we built inside of it as well as it knows all about Inc file and it knows about the type of content and the personality, the tone of voice. We taught all of this up front. So now at the end I go in, I say, ink file go or busy go. I should really use their rebranding name. My apologies. And so it asks a series of, a couple of questions. I give it sometimes one word answers. It's asking me questions like, do you have a name for this character? Do you. What is their. What kind of entrepreneur are they? What is, where do they live? What is their ethnicity and their heritage? Because that's really important to busy to have a wide range of diversity across age, across race, across gender, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And so we taught the GPT this over the course of doing very similar to how I've been building the agency. And so now it asked me those questions and then it immediately goes into creative mode. We gave it a whole set of guidelines and parameters about the type of creativity. And what it does is spit out the a two or three paragraph biography of an entrepreneur. Right. It also knows, it also read. It'll also flag to me, hey, you've mentioned that you want a. Someone from the Dominican Republic this time, right? Living in Boston, right? And it'll actually flag to me and say, hey, we looking at like the, the last, like 10 characters, the last 20 characters that we did. Just so you know, we're skewing Latina Latin heavy. Right? And so you might, and it might suggest to me that you may want to, you look at, here's why don't we use someone from Sweden or wherever it happens to be. Like, it'll flag some things like that. So it knows what we're doing, right? Then it'll build out to me their backstory. And not only does it give me their professional sort of bio of what they're doing now, and a good example is say Isabella, who we built last month for them. So Isabella is from the Dominican Republic. She lives in Boston, just on the outside of the city, takes care of her elderly grandma. And she is a, she is a barista. Like she's a high level barista in a well known coffee shop. But she really aspires to be an art gallery curator. So she works part time in an art gallery. And she also does this thing on. Does the barista stuff and the fact that she lives with her grandmother and takes care of their plants like this plays into who we are as entrepreneurs, right? So it builds a full story for her and I can ask it for an entire movie length book about Isabella now that we have the basis, right? So it builds who Isabella is. We then go and check it off, right? We're like cool, let's craft it a little bit. Hey, can we have her doing this? Can we have her story be this and have her be this age? And you've said that she's got a lot of tattoos and I can ask the GPT like hey, didn't we do like a bunch of people with tattoos last time? Like oh yeah, yeah. It likes to add tattoos to entrepreneurs. Like natively things that you find out about GPT. Right. So it gives us that. And so then after that I say cool, good to go. I say next step to the GPT. And it starts to build visual prompts for both stable diffusion model that we that we run and also mid journey. And I think we're also just adding in ideogram because we have a lot of ideograms. Just another visual tool for visual prompting. So spits out now a day in the life of ISABELLA across about 50 different prompts and describes them all for the different pieces of visual software. Describes them differently because we've taught it what the prompt structure is like for midjourney, what the prompt structure is like for stable diffusion and what it's like for ideogram. And so it gives us three versions all in a table and it describes them all. It knows busiest aspect ratio. We're always, you know, we try to be really cinematic because we want to tell cinematic stories. It always spits out the like the base parameters in like the size and specs that needs to be put into the prompt. Or if it's mid journey it's got parameters. So it's like a dash dash something, right? Dash dash 16:9 is our aspect ratio. I'd like. We build this thing to the nth degree. So then we have so basically gives us out a CSV file we with Isabella's day in the life of everything from her yes being at work, but also her, you know entrepreneurs are always hustlers. So you know like carrying a box of something to go to the art gallery. Right. And then her at in her home life, her exercising her with her family, her out with friends. Like a full, full picture day in the life Of Right. Not just her sitting at a computer in a shared workspace. Right. We also taught the GPT things like, hey, 40% of these fronts need to include technology and that technology needs to be either her working at a laptop or on her phone or those things within the scene. So you build the scene around this because busiest technology company. And so it needs to be able to show that she's always on her technology as we all are. Right. So you can teach all of these things. Spits it out. We get a CSV out that goes off to the different image generators and we have different ways of now batching those processes. We have a Discord bot, which I'm pretty sure might be illegal to be able to do this.
- [31:35]
Unknown
Did you say Disco Ball?
- [31:36]
Jeremy Summers
No, sorry. Discord bot. So mid journey. Mid journey, which runs mainly in Discord, we build a Discord bot because you can't just have an API.
- [31:48]
Unknown
I think Disco Bar would be far more interesting.
- [31:50]
Jeremy Summers
I would love to build Disco Ball for busy. We build a Discord bot to then batch process mid journey prompts based on what we've just sped out as our CSV and then that outputs that. We then output those. We run them through a series of upscaling what we call life scaling process because it runs through a few different upscalers and depending on whether it's person heavy or scene heavy, we use different models, etc. Etc. And then they all get output and then batch process through another system. Whether it be everything goes into Photoshop or to Lightroom into Adobe Suite before going out to client. That all gets spit out and put into their Dropbox and then the bio goes into a. We do a nice little card design for. Hey, I'm Isabella, this is my story. And then busy every month gets however many characters we're doing for them, every month gets put into their team's Dropbox so that their team all around the world have now access to new category of new category and a new character of content that they need.
- [32:51]
Unknown
All right, okay.
- [32:52]
Jeremy Summers
The way that I wanted to.
- [32:54]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:56]
Jeremy Summers
It took me longer to explain that to you than it does to produce the content.
- [33:00]
Unknown
That's exactly where. That's where. Exactly where my question was going at. At this point. When you go from the initial instruction to the custom GPT to the Dropbox output, does anybody touch it?
- [33:14]
Jeremy Summers
Yes. So one overarching thing, talking about agency, talking about creative and my having done all this for the last couple years, my fundamental belief about AI and creativity is that our regular 8020 rule applies as it does in everything else. Right? But it applies sort of in a backwards way. 10% is required from the human up front for prompting, for a strategy, for ideation. Right. Telling the machine, whatever model, whatever software, visual, video, text, whatever it is, right? 10 is required up front. AI, whatever you're using will do 80% of the grunt work. And then 10%, which is really important, is the human finishing it on the other end. Checks and balances, rewriting things, you know, like running it again, whatever you happen to do. Right. That 20% on either end is actually 80% of the value of this entire task. Right. Humans are doing 20, 80. AI is doing 80% of the production of it, but it's reversed in terms of where its value is. The human value far outweighs what the AI is actually doing. The AI just makes it faster and easier for us, right. In the end, it's still a tool, right. I'm hell bent on supplementing the, the human creativity as far as I can and giving the AI more information so we can actually be creative with it as well. I'll take a breath for you, Carrie.
- [34:42]
Unknown
I'm worried about you, man. I'm like, he's got to breathe at some point. I know he does. So I feel like I should have popcorn in front of me because I feel like I'm watching the future, right? How many people on the team?
- [35:00]
Jeremy Summers
It's me about four freelancers of different, different things. That process that I just talked about is just me. I built it with tools that everybody can access. And like I am non technical. FYI everyone, I am a creative. I do not want to be technical. I like this journey over the last two years into AI and being at the forefront of all of this has meant that I've had to look at so much code and understand how to use Google Colab and terminal. Like I am not good at this stuff, right? I do not build my own tools, I do not code or any of this sort of stuff. And yet still I've like managed to create these things like that system that I just described to you around Disney's content and Isabella sort of thing. That's with readily accessible tools and $30 subscriptions for non technical people. The key is, and I know this is not visual, I don't have like I have notebooks upon notebooks for producing what I see as the workflow for each thing. How do I cobble together a bunch of both AI tools and traditional tooling and human strategy and way that we do things creatively into a Single workflow. So that workflow that I just described was not a lot of trial and error. That was one shot. But I sat down for probably an hour as a human creative, understanding what I wanted the output because we have a strategy for them cobbling together what I think the tooling and the technology stack should be to get to that. And because I.
- [36:24]
Unknown
So you just. You just explained a process that took you an hour.
- [36:28]
Jeremy Summers
An hour, yeah.
- [36:30]
Unknown
That now is something that you create Isabella from.
- [36:37]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah. And so that. So, so when I press go to, like, in real time, I press go. You know, I've actually asked ChatGPT. I'm like, can you not type it out to me? Can you just put the text in front of me? Like. And it. And it tells me. And I'm sure you've heard this yourself. Like, yeah. Oh, I'm actually thinking while I'm typing. Right. So it's doing it in real time. I'm like, that's too slow for me. Okay. So I get frustrated and all this stuff. But I. I had. I hit go. It knows the question so that it pops up in half a second. Right. I answer the questions in less than a minute because I have an idea of what I want to do. And then it populates my bio and the base stuff ready to get ready for review for Isabella immediately, you know, within a couple of seconds. And then I hit cool. Go for it. It creates the prompts in probably less than three minutes because we do about 50 or so different styles of prompting for that content. And then it's done to spit out the CSV. So if I now say, let's go again, I could sit here all day. I could produce hundreds of characters a day. Hundreds. This is.
- [37:40]
Unknown
So how long would that have taken?
- [37:41]
Jeremy Summers
Let's.
- [37:41]
Unknown
Let's go back to. Let's go back to two years and six months ago. How long would that have taken? I mean, just estimate from a man hour, person hour point of view.
- [37:55]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah, I can tell you exactly. Not only have I shot these type of things before, I've been the subject of them as well. Right. And so I did this thing for one of these entrepreneurial, like, profile things for. I think it was like BlackBerry, you know, I'm talking like 15 years ago BlackBerry. Right. And they said they like, okay, you need to put your day aside. Me as the entrepreneur. So I put a day aside. Right. They come and show up at the studio with a film crew and a photographer. So they've got a photographer and assistant and a videographer, an assistant, a producer. And a director and then someone from BlackBerry as a client. How many is that? 10 people?
- [38:36]
Unknown
Yeah, I was gonna say they all.
- [38:38]
Jeremy Summers
Show up at our studio and they're like, okay, cool. We sit down, we discuss what we're gonna do, like what can we do that's in the area so we don't have to travel anywhere, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I spend the entire day with them shooting, answering questions, doing things like holding boxes and going to the post office. They photograph me and they video me, right. Doing things like talking on my BlackBerry at that stage, you know, they photograph me and they like, this is like 10 people. And they would have had to, to get those 10 people even just there for the day. There's production time, there's pre prep time, there's due diligence time on my part, there's organization, etc. Etc. Plus those 10 People's Day raise, plus then when they leave, they have to go and then edit it and do all this and it has to go through the approval process within BlackBerry's creative team and up and up and up. And it's got to come to me as the subject and back and forth, creating a video, like all of the content, all that sort of thing. This is day, weeks worth of work for.
- [39:31]
Unknown
Yeah. You're easily into six figures. So you're, you're. I mean, you're into six figures.
- [39:34]
Jeremy Summers
Well, even you're, you don't get out of the day like that for less than 100 grand at the very minimum. Right. We used to do these things as well and we got really, really good at, at doing it. Had a really good internal team and could do it for it never sort of like we probably went under 100 grand a couple of times. But if we were doing it locally. But anytime you have to go anywhere, take people anywhere, catering, bathrooms, like all of this stuff is.
- [39:58]
Unknown
Yeah. So if you are really efficient, if you're really efficient and really paying attention to it, it's 120 grand. Right. I mean that's if you're really hustling.
- [40:06]
Jeremy Summers
And so weeks of planning is not much.
- [40:09]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. So let's just call it 150, $200,000 anyway and you've got it. I mean, and just think about this. You've got it in under an hour.
- [40:21]
Jeremy Summers
Much less. I mean, yeah, we can do it much less. Like I can do it as, you know, fast. Like I, you know, a part of this.
- [40:28]
Unknown
But, but it took you. But it took you. So I mean, but you invested, create the system. Yeah, you and you invested to get there. Yeah, but now you're replicating it in scale and you're getting, I mean, but this is, this is innovation at its finest. Like you are using the tools that are available. How do I duct tape them and bedwell them together so that they produce the outcome so I can do it.
- [40:46]
Over and over again?
- [40:47]
Right. So let me pause here. So when I, when I talk to somebody, Jeremy, when I, when I talk to a sales client and I say, how long does it take you to produce a proposal? And they tell me it takes them three hours. Da, da, da, da. And I say, you can replicate that with readily available tools. And they say, well, I don't know if it's possible. Right, look at the scale here, look at this, look at the scale. So really it's the curiosity and it's our willingness to be open to accept that something else may exist that we don't know about. Can we step over the line of comfort into curiosity and unknown and make the most of it? So when you, when you told me your origin story back when you first saw the Dali white paper come up, has this always been your kind of attack? Have you always been this curious? Have you always been someone that just wants to fail fast fill cheap?
- [41:41]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah. And I, I have, I've been thinking a lot lately about this stage that I'm in. I mean, so you flattered me earlier and you know, like, you've not come across anyone who's doing this stuff in, in your world. I still haven't come across anyone who's doing the stuff at the same level that, that we're able to play with and the clients that we're doing and you know, like the money that we're making, like all of the things. Still no one's out there doing this stuff. Right. But I see it for me personally, a big parallel in when I started my fashion brand 2009, what got me excited and the reason why I fell into fashion I had no previous experience was using a new technology. At that stage it was digital printing. Right, right. In a visually pleasing way. Because I'm a visual artist of, you know, many, many, you know, types and disciplines. Right. Combining those two things so that the output is, no one can look at it and go, oh, I really don't like that. You know, for me, you know, I'm a visual person and I'm a visual artist and creative and so I produce really good looking things. That's my whole life's work is producing great looking stuff, whether it's making A physical swimsuit or the box for it, or producing digital campaigns or a website or whatever. Right. That's my jam. And so what I've done now with not content mirrors, what I did in 2009, this is now, you know, the Jeremy Summers playbook of like, oh, there's a new technology that no one's really utilizing for an output that is one visually pleasing, two in an, in an industry that is, has previously been not really disrupted in any sort of way, you know, I guess, you know, like for a really long time at least. Same felt for swimwear. You know, our swimwear brand was using digital technology to print photographic quality imagery onto swimwear. Prior to that, the entire history of swimsuits had been stripes, polka dots, floral prints or abstract screen printed or just basic fabrics. We came and produced something like the very first one that we thing that we produce with a roaring lion, like a huge fully covered picture of a roaring lion using a digital printing technology and that.
- [43:50]
Unknown
Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing seeing that in person. And you're right, I was watching Almost Famous not too long ago, the movie, and there's a scene at the end where they're talking about, you can just fax your notes, right? It only takes 15 minutes to send a page of notes from one place to another. And that was world changing. And then, you know, you fast forward to where are now and I think what's most, I mean there's multiple levels, there's not a most, I think there's multiple levels of amazing and fascination in what you're sharing with me. And I can't wait to share if you can share some concept of Isabella and how that gets used. So I can share that with the listeners. But my question to you is around copywriting, trademarking, use of products, logos and whatnot in the work that you're doing. So how are you addressing, how are you satisfying? You know, how are you, how are you working around that type of legal responsibility and accountability?
- [44:47]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah, excellent question when I get asked a lot by, you know, because we work with really, really big international brands with full legal teams and we also work with tiny brands who don't have any legal expertise at all. Right. And so whilst we sit and wait very patiently and I don't see it happening anytime soon for things like regulation and legislation to pop in and you know, we're seeing sort of these landmark copyright cases around, you know, some sort of like AI generator or a mid journey thing or that sort of stuff, but nothing that's affecting any change across our legal system or our copyright system. I've been saying for a long time, which didn't go down so well, especially, you know, across a bunch of LinkedIn posts that we are in a post copyright era with all of these tools, but at the moment, you know, we're heavily relying on the terms and conditions and the copyright rules that the tooling sets up. So like a mid journey has, you know, who often talked about in terms of this and their training data very clearly shows that they've taken a lot of living and past artists, data style, etc. Etc. And train their models on that sort of stuff. Stuff, right? And so a good example is that we ran into this with a job for Yahoo and their creative team for something internally and they were like, okay, cool, we want to see all the licensing and usage terms and conditions and legal speak for the tools that you're using. Because we use generally somewhere between most jobs, no matter what it happens to be, whether it's text, whether it's image, whether it's video, or a combination of all three, most things run somewhere between six and 12 different tools, with about three quarters of them being AI, if we can get to that many. So I have a boilerplate template. I'm like, here are the tools that we use here, the links to their pages and stuff, right? Yahoo came back and we're like, look, our legal team are terrified. We've never done anything like this before. We don't love what we're seeing in the ambiguity and all these terms and conditions and the copyright laws that are. We don't know if they're being infringed upon or what opens us to litigation. We don't want you to use any of these. These three tools look fine, but we didn't need to use them for that job. So we were like, okay, we need to go back to the drawing board. They were like, look, we're shutting it down. And so their internal creative team who'd hired us to make the campaign were like, yeah, look, they're not going to let us do it, so we're going to have to figure something else out here and do something else. And I said, look, give me a couple of days and come back to you. So we came back to them with a solution. And again, I got out my piece of paper and I looked at what are all the things that I know forget AI. AI is just a series of tools, right? What else do we know? Right? What ended up happening is we figured out that they had a relationship with Shutterstock Right. Like a corporate relationship where, you know, they just had an endless amount of Shutterstock. So what we did was we ended up training our own visual model on Shutterstock. We went all the way through Shutterstock and found the visual styles that we wanted for the campaign. Right? We bought those images, so we own the rights to them to reproduce, etc. Etc. And Shutterstock also has its own AI generator, which is not great. I know I'm digital, but Shutterstock's image generator, not so good. So that was their first thing. They're like, why don't you just use our image generator? We said no. And so we went and we bought a whole ton of images and trained our own stylistic model on the things. And now we aren't. And this was a way around it. And we got it through the legal team and they were like, yes, great. So we're able to produce this campaign for them with the legal team being satisfied. Everyone's different. Every piece of software that we use is different. Sometimes we had a stopping point where like, they're like, yeah, look, these first few tools are great, but when we get here, we need to figure out how we do this. Because this particular tool that you want to use as an upscaler or whatever it happens to be, we don't, we don't understand or it leaves us open to litigation, the terms and conditions. So everything's pretty different. You know, you mentioned, you asked, you know, upfront, sort of like about logos and that's the thing, you know, we're not using other brands imagery to produce our own. We're a creative agency, right? We're not a production agency. Production is what we, what comes out at the other end of the agency. We are Creative direction as a service, right? Our agency gives you access to like world class creative directors. And I can, if we want to circle back to like the structure of the agency, as small as it may be, but what, what the ongoing structure will be as we grow. But we are Creative Direction as a service. We are strategy. And with those 10% of those two sections of 10% that create the 20, which is actually the 80 for the entire job, that's what we're selling. You have access to people's brains who you would never have access to.
- [49:29]
Unknown
What do you say to people that would comment that the creativity is actually coming from a robotic, automated tool rather than a person? And it's difficult to take credit for it because it didn't come from your hands, tools that you can touch, feel and produce.
- [49:56]
Jeremy Summers
I would say that if they've ever said that they took a picture with their camera phone, that they would be wrong. If that's there, if that's their view on how technology helps us to be creative, then going back to the first camera, which took a 30 second exposure. Well, Ansel Adams didn't do it. He had nothing to do with it. Then based on that, that is all I have to say to those people.
- [50:19]
Unknown
Carrie, I figured you'd have an answer. I just wanted to throw it out.
- [50:24]
Jeremy Summers
Oh, it's that standard. I get this stuff a lot. Right.
- [50:27]
Unknown
Yeah. I did notice your body image, your body language changed when I threw that question at you. So I'm guessing it's something that comes at your.
- [50:34]
Jeremy Summers
I have really deep thoughts because. And like I want to. Let me mention this as well, so this is something that I really figured out is that anytime that I personally creatively have been challenged, right. And my body language changes by a new technology. And this for me the perfect example is going from. I trained as a, as a teenager in film photography and I grew up in a. Working in a black and white dark room. Then overnight, overnight Canon and Nikon gave us digital cameras. And so that, that studio, that dark room where my photography mentor who had been working his entire life, right. We would. That was finished right now it took a couple of years for the megapixels and the printing and all that stuff to go good, but that was done. I remember that very vividly. And having a physical repulsion to digital photography because it was an affront on me and everything that I had spent so long and so much time and so much money and so much effort doing. It was like the technology was like, well, stuff all that, man. Like we're just. This is new. I had it again when I was working some of the very first digital agencies in Australia. Prior to social media, social media came and we've been doing branding and design and everything for as humans and in long form. And then social media came and people were like obsessed with this new thing. We're spending so much time on writing blogs and magazine websites and all of this sort of stuff for these brands. And now there's this social media thing where people are posting pictures of their lunch or 140 characters. That was a physical affront to everything I spent the previous 10 years doing and learning and grinding at and working my way up a corporate ladder and doing all this sort of stuff. I recognized the same feeling when I, when I read that white paper. But at this stage I'm almost 40 and I have two children. And so I'm in a very self reflective state of mind at this stage of life and I recognize the feeling and I stopped it in its tracks. And I thought, I've been here before. The thing that I didn't do which could have caused me to be ultra successful in whatever I chose from then on was to accept it fast, right? Can I get through the seven stages of grief of the lost of my previous knowledge, right? My previous training and all this time and effort and money that I spent doing this thing. If I can get through those seven stages of grace really fast, I get to acceptance and application and mastery super fast. Then I thought, if this is how I feel. And as soon as we started to see especially like the image generation tools, I just saw every designer on the planet, every photographer and every image maker, the hairs on the back of everyone's neck collectively across the world stood up and were like, no. And I'm like, I know this feeling. I'm seeing it. Let me push that feeling aside because I've been here before and get to acceptance and application mastery now, which is why not content sprung up literally overnight in the course of the night where I saw what the end result is going to be. Everyone else is still in stage one or two, denial.
- [53:44]
Unknown
It's amazing, isn't it? Like that we see it pop up in other areas, possessions, real estate, right? Cars. The sentimental value of what we assign to something gives us a false sense of security of what it's actually worth, right? And there's such a defensive stage that goes into that. I've never thought about it until just listening to you now, that there's a sentimental value attached to our history, our experience or training that contributes to our net worth and as a survival and defense mechanism. When you see something like this that says I'm going to be rendered useless, all that time, money and effort I put into it is now for not, right? That's a recognizable human emotion that you just addressed, right?
- [54:27]
Jeremy Summers
And so in the creative world, the only thing that, the only caveat I give you there is in the creative world, which is where I play and what I talk about, right? Is those 10,000 hours, right? That time, money and effort has not gone to waste. In fact, it only benefits to amplify everything here moving forward, right? Where there's a brave.
- [54:47]
Unknown
So that's a brave. That's a brave and uncommon position. So I will say I agree with you 100% and that's a minority position in most folks, right? Because that security of owning My value and what I know change is hard. And addressing the ability of stepping over the chasm of what we know to be true is difficult for a lot of people. Right.
- [55:03]
Jeremy Summers
But however, the first couple of stages of grief, denial, right?
- [55:09]
Unknown
100%, 100%.
- [55:11]
Jeremy Summers
That's all that is. People are going to have no choice but to work through these seven stages, these tools. And the tech is not going away. It is the worst that it is today. It is the most slowest, it is the most expensive, is the least accessible today than it ever will be. Where this is not going away at all. Everybody creatively will have to get through all of these seven stages and get to mastery because this is where, where it's going. And if you don't, then that's when you get left behind.
- [55:37]
Unknown
Yeah. And I just, I just had this flash forward thought, Jeremy, where look at all of the time you've put into this the last two years. Something's going to change in the next six months that renders some of the processes you have irrelevant and then you're back it again.
- [55:50]
Jeremy Summers
Right.
- [55:50]
Unknown
Six months is probably conservative, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:57]
Jeremy Summers
Good at that. I got good at managing the, as you say, that fight or flight response, that actual core emotion. I got really good at managing that and seeing how I can move forward.
- [56:07]
Unknown
Holy smokes, man. This has been a seat belt worthy conversation for me. So I appreciate it. I appreciate it very much. How can people find out more about you and what you guys are doing?
- [56:20]
Jeremy Summers
Yeah, so our agency website is not content AI. You can connect with me on like I am very seldom social. It's something that I have to do a lot more because it's just, it's needed today. But I don't. But you can find me on Twitter. My last name is Somers. You'll see in the show notes. S O M E R S Twitter or connect with me on LinkedIn, as you can tell. Always happy to jam on like the strategic thinking and like the human part of like how we're affecting, how AI is affecting us. Not just like the technical parts, but I'm a super open book. I understand that like I've gone further than most through these seven stages and have now gotten to this sort of mastery stage and applying the things commercially where people are not at that stage yet. So I'm always happy to have anyone reach out and ask questions, you know, down to, you know, what's the tool you use for this? Like, the stuff's readily available again, I'm now steadfast in my, my skill that I've been building my entire career in creativity. I'll give everybody the workflows. That's fine. It's not the workflow, it's not the tool everyone has access to get a Photoshop subscription. It's just another tool. AI is just another. Is Photoshop on steroids. That's all it is, right? So I did, you know, there's no gatekeeping, there's no, there's no secret sauce. I'm not building proprietary software for any of this or anything like that. It's literally pieces of paper on my desk where I sit down and I write out a workflow and create it, you know, keeping an eye on all the tools and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, reach out if you want to and I'd be happy to chat.
- [57:56]
Unknown
Fascinating, fascinating stuff. Thank you. I have a feeling we'll be talking again. Appreciate your time. Appreciate your time. And you're going to send over some resources that people can take a look at because again, I think the visual component of what you're saying is so necessary to kind of put it all together.
- [58:10]
Jeremy Summers
So, yeah, sure.
- [58:11]
Unknown
Thanks again. Fascinating conversation. Thanks, Jeremy.
- [58:14]
Jeremy Summers
Thanks, buddy.
- [58:16]
Kerry Weston
All right, folks, that's a wrap for today's episode of the ChatGPT experiment. Thanks for hanging with us and diving into the world of ChatGPT. We hope you found it helpful and fun and informative and speaking. Speaking of helpful, we'd sure appreciate you taking a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. By the way, five star ratings are our favorite. Till next time. Keep experimenting, keep Learning and remember, ChatGPT may be smart, but it can't make a decent cup of coffee yet. See you soon.
- [58:57]
Jeremy Summers
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Kerry Weston
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Jeremy Summers
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