A (2:43)

I just want to know, you know, why would somebody come? My audience is incredibly curious, just like you and me, right. And I did a listener survey recently, and I know you're big on surveys, and we're going to get into how you've used that and where that takes you. But one of the things that they've shared with me is if I could learn how to do a little bit more, that would be awesome. And the one thing I love about your podcast is it's so varied. It's not just. It's not singular focus on one thing. So that has to be on purpose, right?

B (3:14)

Yeah. What I'm trying to do is cover kind of the swatch of business. So if you think about as a business owner, let's come at it from that perspective. From an entrepreneur, there's a How do I use AI to supplement my team? How do I use AI to be more strategic? How do I use AI to be more analytical? How do I use AI to augment the things that I'm weak at? Then when you think about it from the lens of a marketer, which is my primary community, how do I use AI to improve my craft? How do I use AI to improve my persuasiveness? How do I use AI to just fill in the blank, right? And then the whole creativity frontier, I get a lot of interesting guests on there that are doing things with video, with imagery, with the written word. A lot of the people that I get on the show were actually already decently well known in their prior craft, and they're bringing it to the AI world with their unique lens. And every show starts with a little bit of their story. And then we get into the why question of whatever we're about to talk about, because I want the listeners to understand the reason why they should. Like, if they stick around, here's what they're going to. They're going to get out of it. And then I always dive deep. I want it to be super practical and tactical. So people that love to learn, that's the audience that. That I. Yeah, I love the practical.

A (4:32)

And tactical, and I had the privilege of joining you a couple months ago on the show, and one thing I noticed you did that I. That I'm very aware of myself, is you didn't let me get over my skis, in which I would say things that perhaps somebody listening wasn't familiar with. You brought me back, and you said, okay, you said that, but bring me back. What does that mean? And I love that because it seems like not everybody has that mentality of keeping the empathetic position of the audience. And I know that's. That's a key point of your mission, isn't it? That whole empathetic position of your core audience and doing what's best for them and always keeping them front of. Front of mind. Really? Yeah.

B (5:09)

I think the. Well, I think my mindset is always one of a marketer, and a smart marketer or content creator understands intimately who their audience is. And if you understand who their. Who your audience is, and in my case they are people on the discovery or the journey to understand how to actually leverage AI, then it's very easy to put yourself in their position. And even though I might be way further along than them, and some of my guests are way further along than me, I know that sometimes there are things that are said that may not make sense to certain people in my audience. So I'll often do something like this. So what I'm hearing you say, is this. Is that correct? Or can you expand a little bit about this thing? And I'm always. It's fascinating when you listen to people, sometimes people just drop these little gold nuggets, like, along the way, like, as they're little dust nuggets, almost like. And they're waiting for you to pick a couple of them up. And I'll pick them up and I'll say, okay, hold on. A few minutes ago you said this. And I know my audience wants to come back to this because I think there's something more there. And whenever I do that, it unlocks these cool little conversations. And I hear from people all the time that they're so glad that I did that. Because what I'm seeking is clarity for my audience. First and foremost, I want them to walk away feeling like they got something. I want them to feel like they have to pull their car over if they're driving and stop or rewind it or if they're doing the dishes. They got to dry their hands and grab a piece of paper and write something down that's the objective. I know that they're always in motion, and I know that if I don't stop and say, hold on a second, they're not going to necessarily grasp it either. I know that if I do do that, if I accomplish that. Carrie, here's what happens. First of all, they want to listen again, which is really important in the world of podcasting. You want that repeat listener. Secondly, some of them will go on to share my show with other people and say, you've got to listen to Michael's AI Explored podcast. Third, some of them will say, hey, I want to explore what this guy has going on at his company called Social Media Examiner. Oh, what's this thing he's got called the AI Business Society? Or what's this thing called Social Media Marketing World? And so, like, my desire is to provide overwhelming value to the audience so that they maybe if they want to go deeper on the journey, they decide to, like, join me, or if they want to reciprocate, they share. That's really the.

A (7:23)

Yeah, I love that. And I think I'm always front of mind, worried and lowercase w. But whether it's on a podcast or whether it's a presentation or a keynote, I always want someone to feel like the half hour, 45 minutes, hour they spent in the room was worth it. That's my. That's my. Like, whether I'm providing value to the organizer, whether I'm providing value to the person listening, my fear is that I want everyone to walk out thinking this was a good use of my time. I'm glad I chose this. Right. I know you. I know you're in that space on a rewind, by the way.

B (7:59)

The way get there. For anybody who's listening that wants to do this is the way you get there is you. You make sure you let everybody know where we're going together at the beginning. Does that make sense? So you let everyone know, hey, we're here today to talk about this, you know, and before we do, we're going to explore this guy's story, and then we're going to get into, like, why this matters. And now we're going to actually break it down. Like, people need structure for their brains to commit. Does that make sense? Like, if they don't get structure, they don't know where it's going unless they're just. They love you. There's people that love you are going to listen to you ramble all day long. But the vast majority of people are extremely busy, and they need to know what's in it for them. And that's just something that the marketer.

A (8:39)

And me wanted to share. So I know we've got a shared friend in Marcus Sheridan. And one of the things that I learned early from Marcus was when writing, it wasn't even video or it was just writing. Is that, that first paragraph, Right. The first paragraph in the transition out, if, if, if you don't have clear understanding as to the situation, someone is going to value what this is in for and what they're going to get from it. If that's not clear, then, you know, you're, you're leaving them, you're disrespecting their time, you know, and for me, it about getting clarity there. So I think it's the same. I think it's one of the same. You, you want to go rewind for a second? You have been through this before. AI for me feels a lot like the social media rush that came earlier. And I know that you started in that space too. There's a lot of misnomers about everyone's throwing out. I know AI same as they did as I know social. Right. Can you take me back to the beginning? Because I know you came from the agency world like I did at one point, and you got into a niche and whatnot when you started your previous. The first engagement, the social media world. Because I know you've got a conference. Tell me about the conference for a second because I haven't shared that with anybody yet.

B (9:41)

Okay. Well, I started, I didn't have an agency, I had a consultancy and I had to create a. I called it a. I guess you could call it a creative agency. But basically what I did back in the day was I helped people with website design, graphics design, all the things. I started Social Media examiner in 09, which, and I'm still. That's pretty long time ago. And, and then along the way, maybe around 2013, I launched the Social Media Marketing podcast, which is my really big show. And nine months later, I launched Social Media Marketing World in the same year. So social media marketing world is a big brand that a lot of people are familiar with because there's been many, many thousands of people that have come to that for years. That is a conference that's basically really designed to help marketers go really, really deep and understand how to employ all things social, all things digital marketing, a lot of things content marketing, and now even AI. So, yeah, I've been at this for a while and really the, the thing, the through line between social media and AI is very interesting and fascinating because around 2009, when I started Social Media examiner, remember 2008 was the market crash. Everything sucked, right? And. And everybody was like, in this place where they were looking for their next big thing. And the next big thing for a lot of people was social media because it was free. And AI, for the most part, is free, right? And we're in a place right now where there's a lot of economic uncertainty. Like there was an 08 and you had a lot of moms coming back to work and they were looking for a new kind of job, and they took on these community management jobs inside of social media, and it was like a massive big industry for them. And what they needed back then was to understand Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn and then eventually all the other platforms. And today it's a very similar parallel. What everybody needs to understand today is ChatGPT, which is the Facebook of back then, right? And then you've got Google Gemini, which is the LinkedIn back then, right? And then you've got Twitter, which is kind of like Claude, you know what I mean? And these are like the top three platforms that everybody's like, messing around with and they're all trying to figure it out and they kept innovating and nobody could keep up, right? And it's exactly the same kind of situation we're dealing with right now. All the money was rushing in. It was exactly the same. The parallels are virtually identical. It's just that this is much faster and much larger.

A (12:01)

It was such a clumsy ask of me, too. And you just took that perfectly and weaved it all together. I appreciate that very much. That was so good. I appreciate it.

B (12:08)

Rock. What you. Pardon the. I groked where you wanted to go, not then. You launched it. I knew where you wanted to go.

A (12:14)

So the question for me is you have always had your finger in the air in terms of trying to read what's happening, what's going on. I know you do a lot of asking, I know you do a lot of listening and surveying. Tell me about that. In terms of what does it mean to you to kind of read where you're going and understand what your people are wanting more of, and then pivot, because you've pivoted a few times and I know you've got methodology and reason for it, but how do you embrace that? Like, how do you actually understand where you're going to go next and then pivot?

B (12:45)

That's complicated. So really, I think what you're asking is how do you know when to go all in on a trend. And I'll tell you how I've done it. First of all, you have to know, you have to have. You have to have observed enough of change through your career to understand when something is going to be big or not. And we're of an age that we remember what it was like before the Internet, right? I'm older than you, but.

A (13:13)

Well, I've been around. I've been around the sun 53 times, and I've. Yeah, I. I've.

B (13:17)

I'm still older than you, so. So, yeah, I'm older than you, but we remember what it was like before the Internet, right?

A (13:23)

Absolutely.

B (13:23)

And I started my first business in 1996, right. Which is actually right around when the Internet was starting to pop. So we saw that wave, right? And then we saw the social wave, right? And now we're seeing the AI wave. So us gray hairs have an unfair advantage if we've been observing because we saw the early trends and we kind of knew what to look for. And by the way, I was also on the web3 trend, so I understood all the crypto and all that kind of stuff, too, that just didn't go where everybody expected it to go. So the way I like to look at this is I think of a Venn diagram. So I think of who is my core audience. And everybody can. Can relate to this. Who is my core audience that I already have access to that knows me, likes me and trusts me? And then what I do is I ask myself, are there any fringe trends right around that then overlaps that audience? Okay. Web3 was not a lot of overlap. Okay. But when I got to the AI world, I began noticing that there was a pretty substantial overlap because the early people that got threatened the most by AI, first of all, were writers. Okay. And I am a former copywriter. I wrote a book on writing called Writing White Papers. I have a lot of people in my community that have been following me for decades from the writing world. And I'm like, okay, interesting. So the writers see it as existential threat. Very quickly after that marketer started seeing it as a threat. And I'm like, all right, whenever somebody sees something as a threat, that's an opportunity that there might be something there. But I said to myself, I wasn't going to make this web3 mistake again and go all in. I needed evidence, I needed proof that this was going to have stain and sticking power. So what I started doing, and I've always done, and, you know, I worked with you a little bit to help you do this as well is I. I like to survey my audience and I do it twice a year. Side note, we're coming out with our 2025 Generative AI Marketing Industry Report later this year, which will help marketers understand where, you know, where everybody's at. We surveyed about 800 to 1,000 people and we've asked a million questions. So we've been doing this kind of stuff twice a year for a long, long time. So I started asking in my social media marketing surveys that I do every year, started throwing AI questions in there and I just started like tracking how people thought about it. And then I looked at the responses and I'm like, whoa. Pretty big response to this. A lot of interest in this. And I use that as a signal to run experiments. So this is really important to have experimental mindset. So I did not want to jump into the ChatGPT world in the first year. I said I was not going to do that again. It was a distraction because it was too early. And there is, there is a too early thing. If you're too early and you can't draw an audience to you, you will end up bailing, which is why so many people that got in too early on. AI are not here anymore because they couldn't attract an audience to them and now they're gone. So I waited till I thought I was at the just right moment. And the just right moment was 18 months approximately after ChatGPT rolled out. It was in the is in April or May of 20 last year, 2024. And I said, okay, I'm going to run an experiment and we're going to launch it in like May or June, which would put me at about the 18 month mark. We're going to try this brand new show called AI Explored. And the goal here was to run it as an experiment. And success was we're going to run 12 episodes. If we can get to a thousand people listening to every episode, we will continue. If we do not, we will shut the whole thing down and move on. Okay. It was a very clear experiment. We had a hypothesis that we would get a thousand people listening to every episode. Now that's a lot, but it's not a lot for my company because I have a massive audience. So hundreds of thousands of people on my newsletter list, you know, tens of thousands that listen to every episode within the first week on some of my shows. So here's what happened by the third week and we promoted the heck out of it because we wanted to be successful by the third week. We had already had more than a thousand listens on the first three episodes. And I said to my team, okay, we're gonna stop the experiment. Hypothesis proved. This is no longer an experiment, this is now a show. Okay. Then after that, I decided to publish the report. And then I, based on the survey Data, launched the AI Business Society, which is our membership. There's like 700 people in there every month that are paying to learn about AI. Then I launched a track at Social Media Marketing World called the AI, AI and Marketing Track. Then I launched a dedicated ticket. You can kind of see where I'm going. I just started doing more and more and I started measuring everything like, okay, how many people were in the rooms? Okay, well, at Social Media Marketing World, we packed out a 700 seat room on AI and marketing. Okay, wow, that's affirmation. We're on the right track. So you see, what I'm doing is every step of the way I'm running new experiments, I'm testing to see if it works. And at a certain point you make a commitment and you go kind of all in. So where I'm at today is I got Social Media examiner and all of the legacy stuff that we've been doing forever. And then I'm, you know, slowly building to something that I'm not ready to talk about yet in the AI world. But you can expect more from me for sure.

A (18:32)

Up an Easter egg there. So how hard has it been? You said you started seeing similarities across the audiences in social media and AI. Your conference obviously has brought it in. How hard has it been to keep those two podcasts separate?

B (18:49)

Well, in the beginning, actually, before I launched the AI Explored podcast, I was bringing guests on the social media marketing podcast on AI topics and I was tracking to see how the interest was and it was easy to track because I could look at the metrics inside of thing. So. But it was, it was pretty clear once we were going to do this permanently that I was going to separate out the content. So the AI Explored show was not just marketing, it was marketing, entrepreneurship. It was, it was going to cover kind of a general umbrella of targeting the same audience, marketers, entrepreneurs and creators. But it was purely going to talk about it through the lens of AI. Where on the social media marketing podcast? Yes. Now, AI has almost always worked into the interviews because everybody's talking about it, but it's through the lens of specific marketing objectives. Like we'll bring on someone to talk about positioning or we'll bring on someone to talk about Instagram reels. You see where I'm going with that? So the ideas are very specific topics. AI shows up sometimes in there, but it's not, it's not like the through line.

A (19:47)

You know, I remember it was an inventor called Doug Hall. He was an alumni of our, of our university here. He had a, an institute himself for a while. He, he had a phrase he used to say, fail fast, fail cheap. Some people say learn fast, learn cheap. That's, that's right. Here you're saying you're the experimenting and moving forward. And I've heard you say in other areas that you have a mission of trying to help people deal with and adapt with change. Like that has been one of your things through the years of your audience. Caring for your audience and helping them understand, deal with and motivate through or navigate through change. You yourself though, you've been through a lot of changes and how, as you go through this, like how do you use tools yourself? I know that you're promoting the use of and you bring guests of, but are you experimenting yourself? Are you using these things in your, in your daily world?

B (20:37)

I'm going to get to that, but first I want to address the navigating change thing. Our, our mission is to be the trail guide of the ever changing marketing jungle. So a trail guide helps people navigate change. Right? Our slogan is your guide to the marketing jungle. You know, if you go to Social Media examiner. So you're right, you've nailed that part. Like, we are navigators, we help people. But what we don't do is we don't claim to be the experts. We curate the experts. And that's unique. We, we're curators. So I find experts like yourself, I bring them into my community and I bring them to my community and that's a very powerful thing. So I just wanted to throw that out there. Now back to me. How do I personally do this use AI? Is that the question?

A (21:17)

Yeah. I was wondering how much time? Yeah, exactly how much time are you dabbling with this stuff? Like how are you, how often are you trying new things and using your own curiosity?

B (21:26)

Well, okay, so here's the deal. I'm a CEO, I'm a founder, I'm an operator. Okay. And I'm also, you know, a thought leader because I have two shows that I do every week. Producing two shows every week is very time consuming. As you know. I have pre calls with every guest and I have to run all the business stuff that we're doing, including the software company we're about to launch. So I Don't get as much time in the sandbox as I would like. But I do use AI every day in my craft. So my superpower that I bring to my company is I'm a master copywriter. So I use Claude almost every single day because I'm writing every persuasive marketing message that goes out. Like all the stuff that I showed you before this show for our new software product, all that is me and Claude working side by side. I use, I still art direct, a lot of the stuff we do, for example, for our YouTube thumbnails. So I'll. I create a project inside of ChatGPT and ask it to mock up a thumbnail for me, you know what I mean? And I work with the art direction stuff, so. So for me, it's almost exclusively Claude and a little bit of chatgpt, but I use Claude like all the time because there's no better writer out there. I don't care what people say about ChatGPT.

A (22:39)

I agree with you.

B (22:40)

Like, ask writers and they're all going to tell you that use Claude and there's a reason they use cloud because it's a superior writer. And I have been doing, I have.

A (22:49)

Been doing the Cloud ChatGPT competitive. I'll. I'll start somewhere. I'll take one. If I start in Chat GPT, I'll take it to Claude and I'll tell it, Chad did this and Claude will improve it and I'll bring it back and forth and I've almost got a team doing that. But I agree with you, there's some. There's an eloquence to Claude that I don't find in Chat GPT. It feels like it's getting.

B (23:05)

It'll tell you what's good and what's not. And it will tell you, here's a way to take it from like a 9 to a 10. And I mean, like, it's just smart. And I, I think when we first started talking, you weren't as into Claude, were you?

A (23:15)

I had touched it and it shut me out. I remember telling you that, you know, it used to say, you come back in three hours, you know, and I just didn't like that. It doesn't do that to me anymore. So. But yeah, but you've got a touching, though the other one that I caught on your show that I've been using a lot of now is Notebook LLM and using the. Using that database source. Yeah, I have a number of folks that reach out. Either I work with or they reach out and they Say I need to hire, like what?

B (23:40)

Give me a scenario.

A (23:41)

Let's just, let's just talk about a service company who's hiring someone that's going to handle some copywriting, they're going to handle social media, probably do some social video, interview some social matter experts, and maybe run a few campaigns, an event a year. How, how much are you putting an emphasis on AI versus quote unquote, the traditional stuff that we kind of grew up in?

B (24:02)

Well, first of all, I would encourage people to actually start with AI instead of hiring a person, because each of those domains are so rich that it's really hard to find a person who understands how to do all that stuff. Because in the world of marketing, you've got video creators, and video creators are very, very creative. They tend to be very neurodiverse people, meaning they tend to not be super good with like structure, but they tend to be very creative. So they can turn on a camera and they can create stuff and stay in the creative sandbox all day long and can make beautiful stuff and, and that's part of the equation. But the problem with that is there's the other side of the marketing window, which is you need someone who understands how to write really good copy, who understands how to split test it, understands how to make sure it's actually working, to iterate it, to continuously improve it. That is not the video creator. Okay? The video creator typically has someone else who's editing their work because that other craftsperson knows how to take that work and refine that work and edit that work and enhance it in a way the video creator doesn't. So the first thing I would say is like, you cannot hire one role for all those things. That is a critical mistake. Here's where AI could help. Okay, you could, and there's already a bazillion custom GPTs out there. You could just do a Google search on all the critical things. Like, you know, a video creator typically will create a script, right? So you can find a good script writer and, and you could find custom GPTs or create them yourself or cloud projects for almost every part of the creative process. But you have to understand the creative process. If you don't understand the creative process, go to ChatGPT and say, hey, what are the steps typically involved with creating a YouTube video from beginning to end? What are the typical roles? Okay, then what you could do is you could create AI models for every single one of those roles. And then you're going to find there's some roles where you need a human, okay? That's where you decide to go out and hire a contractor, not an employee that can do that one thing. Because there are bazillion marketers out here that are specialists that can do one thing. Like video editing is a very powerful craft that most people do not know how to do or analytical stuff, right? Like how do I know this is working? That's where you hire someone who understands how to look at Google Analytics, how to look at Facebook insights and how to discern, okay, what's the problem here? Or YouTube, you know, insights. That's where like a lot of this stuff can be kind of done. And the best analogy is like if you go to an attorney, everybody knows right now they're going to start with ChatGPT before they go to the attorney, right? Because the attorney's going to charge them a fortune and they're going to go to the attorney with kind of a mostly done thing and then they're just going to pay the attorney to do the part they want them to do. That's the exact same mentality you have to have when you're hiring someone. Because right now you should not need to go out and hire someone full time. That's an old mindset. Instead you should be able to find contractors who can do very specific roles that just come when you need them and then they're out. That's the new model. It's the reality. You will waste money. I have done this, I've spent enormous amounts of money hiring someone just to do this one thing. 50, 80,000, $125,000 a year just to do this one thing. And like it's a complete waste of money. They love it because like they don't realize they know what you don't know, which is that they can do this in their sleep. It's not a full time job.

A (27:19)

That's right. And the thing that I've shared before is, is, and I've done it myself, we, we hire on value and pay to be busy, right? Like we actually don't pay for the value that we're hiring because the minute we hire somebody we find 15 other things for them to do and we get away from that specialist mentality that the answer that you, that you brought up is such a change in mind shift for so many because they've been so caught up in the way we always do it. That is difficult, it's difficult to see that the world has changed for some people, you know, because they're, it's, it's, listen, it's understandable they're trying to keep the lights on, trying to keep the people happy, trying to keep the customers happy, trying to make payroll, trying to do this. It's difficult to see where the world is going and go gradual on it.

B (27:57)

I have an idea that could help everybody. Okay, so if you do invest in one person full time, you invest in someone who understands AI, okay. And you go to them and you tell them, I want you to create me an AI marketing department, okay. And you hire them to specifically do that. And then basically after you create that AI marketing department, you're going to realize, okay, there's some roles you got to bring a human into, help you ask them to help identify those roles. You hire those people as contractors. Doesn't even matter if you pay them 150 bucks an hour, it doesn't matter. It's cheaper than full time. Then you take that person that works for you, that's AI, and you put them onto the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. That would be a smart hire. You hire someone who is, who is going to help you basically AI enhance all your staff, all your procedures, all of your processes. That's a worthy full time employee because they'll keep up with all the changes that are happening in the models, they'll train people how to do it, they'll create all the things so that all you've got to do is just let them guide you. That's a smart investment. What's your reaction?

A (28:58)

I think it's great advice. And my reaction is this. It's right on, it's right on cue with what I've been getting. And you've probably getting the same feedback. I've been getting more emails from people saying I need to bring this to my company or I've been charged to do this with my company. I need to be the AI person in my company. What do I do next? Right. There's a lot of people that are being tapped, much like we saw either the computer person or the social media person, they're being tapped as the AI person. And I think what's dangerous is someone that knows how to ChatGPT, knows how to use. ChatGPT is not necessarily the ideal person for this. It's the curious person that can understand the strategy behind how do you bring these tools to the business, case to the audience, right. And build the systems that will exist when I'm gone. And that's the important part is how do you replace people with systems when it matters? Like you said that busy Middle. We talk about the three steps, the busy middle.

B (29:46)

How do you enhance people?

A (29:47)

Exactly. Enhance. Exactly. I love that one. So that's where I'm going with this. Initially, the initial thought before you said some brilliant stuff here was, you know, it's so hard for people to see where things are going, right? Usually they stick their head up and things have changed and now they've got to adapt and catch up. They feel like they're behind. You've always been really good at being maybe a futurist. I don't know if you have a label for this yourself, but I've always seen you as kind of being a futurist. So is there something we haven't talked about that has enabled you to kind of see where, where things are going, or is it the listening, the surveying and really testing and learning before you dive in?

B (30:22)

Well, are you asking, how do. How does one become a futuristic.

A (30:26)

I'm asking you specifically, like, is, do you feel that way? Let me ask you, first of all, do you feel that way that you've been able to maybe be a futurist?

B (30:34)

I've definitely always. I've definitely always had the ability in my brain to kind of connect the dots and see the trajectory. That's always been who I am. So, yes, I would call myself that.

A (30:45)

What's. What's got your attention now?

B (30:49)

Well, I mean, it's. It's what you and I have shows on. I mean, like, AI is. Is. Is a big deal. And I, I'm going to just kind of be a futurist right now for a second. It's going to take years, even decades for people before this, like, this trend wears out. This is not something that is going to happen overnight, which is really good news for anybody that wants to put their flag in the AI world. So the adoption rate of AI, if you listen to all, like, if you hang out on X all day long and look at all these tweets or if you read all these newsletters about all these changes that are coming from the AI world and you feel like, you feel like it's too late because it's too fast, that is totally not true. The audience that's into that is just a teeny little tiny microcosm. Even though it's large, it's small in the grand scheme of humans. Okay? And the way people use ChatGPT right now is so like 1%. Like, recently Sam Altman said that. I don't know what he said, 3% of people are actually utilizing some of the advanced features, like custom GPTs and, and stuff like that in chat GPT. So like, just because these features exist doesn't mean anybody understands how to use them, doesn't mean they're actually taking advantage of it. Most people don't even know you can actually talk to chat GPT on your phone and turn on a camera and show it something. It's. They have no clue. Okay. Even though you know it and I know it. So what does that mean? What that means is that the entire world, every industry, every job, every student, every retired person, they're going to need to be trained up on actually how to use this stuff. And this will be a job that could be a decade long thing that you could, you could plant your flag into. Because people take time to change. Do you know there's still people today that don't have social media accounts? Okay. Do you know there's still people that like, don't even use their phone for anything other than dialing phone numbers? They don't have any apps installed on their phone. Okay. So it's going to take literally, even though there's a ton of people that have chat GPT on their phone, it doesn't mean they're using it, it doesn't mean they understand how to use it, it doesn't mean. Do you know how long it takes to break a habit? It takes forever. So that, that there's just this massive greenfield opportunity for educating, for becoming a consultant, for growing an agency, for developing tools and having events and all the things. It is huge. And there's no shortage. Let's say there was 10,000 AI consultants right now I'm here to tell you it's not enough because it's not enough because you're talking about a population of billions of people. It's not enough. So don't let your mindset say, oh, it's overcrowded, I'm too late. No, you are way early.

A (33:46)

And let's go to the other side. I'm going to talk to the audience here for a second. The other side of what Michael's saying is not only is there a plethora of opportunity for the foreseeable future if you are teaching and guiding in the AI world, but if you feel like you're behind, by the way, because you don't know how to use these tools, you are not, you are part of the majority. It's not something that's keeping you or handicapping you at the moment. However, it's time to get in like the curiosity is here. It's time to Start exploring because things are moving. You've seen this, Mike. Things are evolving. And I say this on my show, like, I'm going to tell you a feature, I'm going to tell you a thing, and it's probably going to be outdated by the time this goes to air. Like, things are moving so fast. Yeah. You agree with this. Like, this is, this is moving at such an exponential speed.

B (34:28)

I've always lived in this world. Like the stuff we cover on social media. It's still. There is nobody who understands all the features that Instagram and YouTube has. There's just no one person. It's not possible. It's changing too much yet. Does that mean that you shouldn't go out there and teach that stuff? And of course not. It's incredible opportunity. The demand is there. And, and, and, and here's the other thing. For those that don't want to teach but want to learn for themselves, all you got to do is just learn one thing that's really, really helpful for you. Master it. And then if you decide because you have margin now to learn the next thing, then learn the next thing. And just slowly, like Lego blocks, start clicking these things together until, you know, it just makes total sense to you. Some people learn extremely quickly, some people learn extremely slowly. But that's why shows like us.

A (35:18)

Have you had an aha moment recently? Have you had a. That's cool. I didn't know that type of moment. Using any AI lately. Have you had your head down?

B (35:26)

I mean, like, it's constantly changing. So I like, I like the. I like how they keep. Seem to be getting smarter, but I like, sometimes I don't like how sometimes they get stupider.

A (35:37)

Yeah.

B (35:37)

You know, like for days, like all of a sudden Claude will be acting up. I'm like, what the heck's going on there? Your memory features screwed up or chat GPT, you know, like, wait a second, you rolled backwards on me. What's going on? But that happens. You know what I mean? It just happens.

A (35:49)

We live in a capitalistic world too, right? They're all fighting for attention, share and capital and they're rolling up much like the iPhone. Like every year there's something rolling out and they feel like they have to do something new just to keep up with the Joneses. And I think there's some, there's some AI happening there too. But this is also. It's still a big experiment for them as well. These companies are still experimenting with their own product. Right. This is so new. It's so raw. Your. Your, your Social Media world that that's happening. Is that an April event?

B (36:14)

Michael, Social Media Marketing World is in late April of 2026 in the, @ the convention center, which is right next to Disney.

A (36:23)

That's pretty cool. It. With everything changing so fast, how do you actually lock in an agenda for that thing? What's that, what's that process look like now?

B (36:32)

Well, you know, all the stuff we talked about earlier about how I care about research, I'm always surveying my customers and our readers and listeners. So I kind of know already what they want to learn about. Because I ask, I say like in the next year, these are the things I really want to learn about, you know, and then of course, that gives me exactly what I need to focus on. And of course I'm. Because I'm interviewing people every twice, you know, twice a week for the two different shows. I'm very, and I read a bazillion newsletters. I'm very aware of kind of the, the, the, the topics that my audience finds very attractive. And for example, we typically by this time have more than half of our speakers already recruited. We don't know exactly what they're going to be talking about. We know what their domain expertise is. We know who's going to talk on Instagram, who's going to talk on YouTube, who's going to talk on AI. But as the months progress, we ask them to submit topics and then I get to see the matrix of all the things they want to talk about. And I try to pick the things that make the most amount of sense for where our audience is going to be by the time the conference rolls around. It's kind of a mad science, to tell you the truth.

A (37:32)

The last question I have for you, and you're very, very good at this as a core principle, but how do you see authenticity playing out between all these mediums, social media, all the platforms we have, AI, the use of the tools, the expediting, all of it, how do you see authenticity either existing, not existing, being used, moving forward?

B (37:58)

Well, in a world where it's very easy for AI to create something that seems real and authentic, it's going to be more important that people remain real and authentic and transparent because there will be a backlash to the AI fakeness. The, you know, the people that are just copying and pasting from AI and posting, the people that are creating, you know, AI replicas of themselves and not actually doing the work and don't even realize what their AIs are saying, there's going to be a backlash on that, and I think what's going to happen is people will desire to be around humans that are real and transparent. And we all can tell when someone is being authentic, because when you're authentic, you talk about things that AI would never talk about, which is the struggle, the problems that you're facing. Like, I recently wrote a post that I woke up at four in the morning because I'm about to launch the software, you know, and it's in chaos. You don't say that if you're AI. Why would you ever want to signal chaos if you're an AI? But if you're a human, that's what a human would do. And I believe that authenticity is going to be like the thing that will, like a magnet, attract people to you. And you and I have the opportunity to do that a lot in a podcast. I don't do it as much because I don't have solo shows like you do. Every once in a while, you know, I just interview people. But the more I can interject my own experiences and stuff during an interview and share stories, the more people connect with me and the more authenticity shines through. So I do believe that the superpower in content and marketing is going to be to be true and to talk about things that AI would never talk about and to talk about the struggle. Because what do you do when you're hanging out with friends? You talk about the struggle. What do you do when you're in a trusted environment? You ask for feedback, okay? And you interact with people. This is not what you do when you're creating AI content. It's all designed to simulate real stuff. But real humans can tell. You know what I mean? And if they can't tell now, they're going to be able to tell pretty soon because they'll start to notice the patterns. And so I think authenticity is absolutely essential. And this is where I think having real experiences, whether they be memberships with zoom calls or meetups in your local town, or actual physical conferences where you get a chance to be around other humans, there's going to be this mass movement to actually going back to experiences for a reason a lot of people don't understand. It's not just because people are going to crave it. It's also because people are going to have time. Because the more people embrace AI and stop doing the grunt, dirty work that they, that they feel like they have to do, the more they're going to be able to either A, clock out early and hang with their family, right, or B, take actual vacations where they're completely disconnected right into the wilderness, no Internet or anything. And the more they're. They're going to have and be looking for those kinds of opportunities and adventures. And I think we're going to see the tourism industry explode. I think we're going to see people traveling more and, and I feel like it's because they're going to crave that authenticity. We didn't have it during COVID now we want it. And AI is only going to increase the demand.

A (41:19)

So, in the interest of being authentic, Michael Stelzner, tell us something that people either don't know or will be surprised to know. How about you?

B (41:29)

Well, I'm a person of faith. I am a Christian, and my faith is very important to me. Some people know it, some people don't. I've got three kids. My oldest is a graduate from film school and she's working at a donut shop trying to figure out how she can be a script writer. My youngest is a senior in high school and she's trying to figure out what she wants to be when she goes to college. And she told her guidance counselor yesterday that my dad wants me to go into business, but I don't know what I want to do.

A (41:55)

So.

B (41:56)

And then my middle daughter is, is, is, is a senior and she wants to get into social work. So, you know, I'm at the stage of my life now where I'm going to be kind of an empty nester. And I'm actually excited about it because I would love to go with my wife and travel to places and experience things because I desire what I just talked about that other people desire. And I don't want to wait until I'm retired.

A (42:20)

Love it.

B (42:20)

How's that for authentic?

A (42:21)

I love it. I love it. I've got, listen, I've got 21, 16 and 14. We're having the same conversations. I tell my daughter I don't know what I want to be when I grow up either. Don't worry. Let's just figure out what your interests are. We'll go from there. You know, when I. The. I have a moment. I picked up Gary Vaynerchuk's book years and years and years ago, the thank you. Economy. And I never made it past the first page because his comment, I'm summarizing it, but it was, everything is changing except human nature, you know, and my head went into a spin when I read that because we talk about all the tools, we talk about all the technology, but what we're really after is to be liked, thanked, respected, listened to, appreciated, loved. And we're still there. I mean, this is, I don't know, that was probably 15 years ago and we're still there. And one of the reasons I'm so glad that you're on the show and one of the reasons I'm so glad that we got to connect is when I found you in your social media podcast, I could tell that there was a connection to the human element, that there was a dedication of teaching and guiding and navigating like you said. And it was selfless. I could see that. That and it continues to be as we move into the next technology. There's a mission. I can see it, I can hear it, I can feel it. That there's a mission to guide, there's a mission to navigate. And it is selfless. And I appreciate that very much. And I just. The reason I love having you on the show today is I wanted to introduce that, your philosophy, your tools and your resources to the audience because I think it's sincere, I think it's authentic, I think it's extremely valuable and extremely noble and I appreciate it very, very much. So let's close by, just sharing with people how do they find you and the stuff that you're doing once they get done listening here and want to go find you.

B (43:52)

Thank you first of all for those kind words. SocialMediaExaminer.com if you go there, you can find the podcasts, all the shows we produce, find the conference, our AI Society, our newsletter, all the shebangs. So just check out Social Media examiner and if you want to connect with me on The Socials, Facebook, LinkedIn and X are my top three and you can follow me on any of those platforms.

A (44:15)

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