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The Chris Cuomo Project
BONUS: Why America’s Two-Party System is Dangerous for Democracy (with Alex Berenson)
00:59:22
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- [00:02]
Rachel Zegler
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- [00:28]
Chris Cuomo
Chris Cuomo here and one of the great things about Substack is you can have unvarnished, unstructured, uncensored conversation. So the good folks at Substack came to me and said, hey, you know Alex Berenson? I said, of course I know Alex Behrenson. They said, do you want to talk to him about politics? I said, ooh, what a great opportunity. So we did it, and we did it live on Substack and we were both allowed to obviously repackage it and bring it to our audience bases. And the whole point is to build community and to get more people who care about constructive conversation. And there will be disagreement and there'll be different ideas, and some are better and some are worse, but conversation is.
- [01:10]
Alex Berenson
The cure to division.
- [01:12]
Chris Cuomo
Conversation of different ideas, different perspectives. And that's why I'm here. And that's why my substack is available to people for five bucks a month. You can sign up, I think for 50 bucks a year or something like that. The numbers are small and I'm not saying that as some rich guy. I'm saying it as somebody who pays for a lot of information on different platforms. And I believe Substack and what I'm offering here with the Chris Cuomo project ad free, with the long Covid discussions that I have with my doctor, with the Walk and Talk series where I take you through different philosophical constructs and what can really help you make your life better and you get to go to school on how I mess it up all the time is a great value. And on top of it, I'm allowed to use the proceeds to help fund people getting treatment for Long Covid who can't afford it. So I'm really happy for the opportunity on Substack. I love this format of talking to Alex Berenson. We'll probably keep doing it if you guys want it.
- [02:08]
Alex Berenson
And even if you don't, I want.
- [02:10]
Chris Cuomo
It, so I'm probably gonna do it. So here is the conversation I had with Alex Berenson about the big ticket item, the game of two party politics, and how it is dragging Us down with them in this thunderdome of tox comparison of which and who and what is worse.
- [02:36]
Alex Berenson
Today we're part of the substack election dialogues where Alex Baronson and I are going to have a very unfiltered, unscripted, uncontrolled dialogue conversation as two smart people who care about the conversation, and we don't have agendas to push other than your interests about what's happening in the.
- [02:55]
Unnamed Guest
Election quickly and hope people pick up. Why do you think that Trump doesn't represent something new? He. Whatever you want to say about the man, he seems to represent something new.
- [03:06]
Alex Berenson
Is Trump different? Of course. Has he disqualified himself from leadership? Of course. The fact that Alex Berenson. All right, if you Google him, all right, just his education, just what he spent the first 10 years of his career doing. The idea that he's saying, well, I gotta figure out whether I can vote for Trump just tells you how different things are. In any other period, Donald Trump would have never been seriously considered by the Republican Party for anything. So is he the same type of offender of norms as Kamala Harris or anybody else? No. He is completely in his own category of perfidy, misdemeanors, felonies, and everything else. There's no question about it. So why do I say they're playing the same game? Because they are. Because the two parties do the same things to scare and to apportion voters. What is Kamala Harris's theory of the case? Trump is too damn dangerous. He is a threat to democracy. January6. He likes dictators. He says bad things and he thinks bad things and he does bad things. He is too dangerous. That's her whole case. I believe it is not enough. You have enragement versus engagement, and he is enragement. He is grievous. He is the mascot of people who.
- [04:40]
Chris Cuomo
Have, you know, he's the agent of.
- [04:41]
Alex Berenson
Animus, as I call him every night. That's what he is.
- [04:44]
Unnamed Guest
He is.
- [04:44]
Alex Berenson
I'm pissed off at the system. I want change. I know he's not who I want. As my father, brother, boss, business partner, dating my mom.
- [04:53]
Unnamed Guest
I get it.
- [04:54]
Alex Berenson
I get it. But this system is dirty and disgusting, and I need someone from the outside who sees it for what it is and wants to destroy it. And that's what Donald Trump is. He is a virus. And that's why people think about voting for him, not because they like how he is. Okay, the Alex Baron. You model everything about your life, from what I can tell, to not be what he is. So. So that's why I say they're playing the same game. Is he the same proposition for people? No, I don't think he is. I do get the idea of saying anybody's better than he is. It's true. As long as you're okay with the status quo. See, and that's the dividing line. And I think that this election does turn on grievance and that's why I believe it's Trump's to lose. Can he lose? Of course. He's wildly unpopular. We've never seen anything like it. People in his own party don't believe he tells the truth in numbers we've never seen before. But they're more angry about the system. So that's my analysis on it.
- [05:53]
Unnamed Guest
Right, but if he, but what you're saying is he's the person you vote for if you want the system broken. Right. So isn't he sort of standing out? I mean, he's not Mitt Romney. He's not, you know, John McCain or George. Isn't he a different kind of Republican? Isn't he a populist? Isn't he truly different, for better or worse?
- [06:10]
Alex Berenson
Yes, he is not a Republican. He is not a populist, by the way, because remember, he's not trying to do anything for the rank and file. He's not trying to do anything for the masses. You know that Another weird part of the analysis with him is who does his policies help? The rich. His policies help. That's that Sue. His tax policy helped. That's what most of the spending did. That's what motor of the art, official juicing of the markets that he continued did. That's what even the pandemic spending that he started and Biden continued, this is not a real conservative. This is not a guy who, he talks the talk of the angry man. But his policies are not geared towards improving their status. So yes, he's totally different, Alex. No question about it. Never seen anybody like them. I've known him my whole life, but I've never seen him, anyone like him flourish in our politics. And I think it's proof of the problem.
- [07:05]
Unnamed Guest
So let me ask a question that is probably of particular interest to me and my readers because some of us, you know, I probably became known to the extent I became known in the last few years because of COVID anti lockdown, anti school closure. Then, you know, I, I then raise questions about the MRNA's. Okay, my theory, and maybe it's only because of my perspective, is that, is that the pandemic sort of upended Things in a way that people don't really talk about that. There's a lot of anger about what happened in 2020 and a lot of people who don't really believe anymore in the public health establishment and who question the vaccines that, you know, encouraged or in some cases forced to take. And people aren't really talking about it. Right. It's the pandemic is not an issue at the, you know, if you poll people or if you see what people are talking candidate, they're not talking about it loudly. But I agree now it is fueling some of this anger.
- [08:03]
Alex Berenson
Do you think that's true or 100% and your reporting on it was ambitious? I think sometimes ahead of our understanding. Whether you're right or wrong, we don't know. The reason that we don't know is because there's been no review the way there was after 9 11, which we need very badly. And the reason it won't happen. And don't tell me Congress is doing it because they're bullshit.
- [08:23]
Unnamed Guest
All right.
- [08:24]
Alex Berenson
Those hearings are a joke. I watched my brother prep and have to go and present in front of him on what is a legitimate issue. I think it's been politicized, but whatever. But it was such a joke. The difference between the closed door session and the open door session in terms of the level of acumen and intelligence, in terms of questioning of my brother as a governor at the time of the Pand is a joke. So that's not the answer. The 911 Commission was not elected for a reason and it worked. It worked. You won't see it here because there's too much stink on both parties. Trump doesn't want to talk about it because he screwed it up in the beginning, saying it was a cold that would be gone by Easter. And then he screwed up the PPE and then he scared everybody about what was going on. And his signature achievement is Operation Warp speed and how they streamlined the efficacy portions of the vetting and the requirements of the vetting to get it done. And most of his voters are anti vaxxers, so, you know, he can't talk about it. The Democrats don't want to talk about it because it took too long and on their watch, same way with the economy. They have a story to tell about the economy in terms of our rate of recovery, but it doesn't sound good enough to the voters. So they've just abandoned the issue. So, yes, Alex, I agree with everything you're saying. Now. Do I believe that the realities as I understand them have been Twisted for the purpose of agendas. Yes. And I'll give you a great example. And substack, you can thank me in advance, because this will absolutely be everywhere for the next week and a half. Look, this is. There are a few reporters. I'll give Alex the advantage on me because he's smarter and he's a better reporter. Few people lived the dynamic of COVID the way I did, and not just because I got sick early, because I got sick early and I had a big platform. I was hearing from everyone, okay? The Trump guys, Fauci, the nih, the cdc, the guys who came up with the antibodies. I just, by whatever reason, I don't even know why this is true. I live next door to one of the main architects of Operation Warp Speed, so I had incredible access to the realities of what was going on. Okay, so Ivermectin, okay, Ivermectin is not a standalone cure for anything Covid related. And the people who will tell you that are the people who make Ivermectin. Now you can say, yeah, of course it's gone generic. They're not making any money off it. They're making money off the other protocols. Okay, but still, there is no company that has ever made anything that doesn't like the idea of what they made being used. Okay? And Ivermectin is a real antiviral. It can work. It is not supposed to be given at veterinary grade to humans. And that's why the paste was a problem. If you look at the research, which I have, and I encourage all of you to go to trial Site News, they cover this brilliantly. The guy, Dan, who runs it, I know him. I've gotten to know him. He's a very conscientious guy. He has no agenda. Okay, so in combination with other things. Like what? It depends on the symptoms. It depends on the variance. It could be an antibiotic. It could be high doses of zinc and vitamin C. It could be, you know, other. Other things that different practitioners use. Ivermectin was part of blunting the symptoms and shorting, shortening the duration of certain variants of COVID in long Covid treatment, which no one talks about. And I have my doctor on my substack. That's why I started it. You get my podcast ad free. But my doctor is giving her time. This is all she does in her practice, Alex, is treat long Covid. And she uses a lot of Ivermectin. She gave it to me to flush out spike protein that we see in my blood with all this other shit. That was always my point. Joe Rogan, I believe, was unfairly weaponized. I don't think it was his intention to tell everybody to take Ivermectin. Don't care about getting Covid. Don't worry about the vaccine. All you need is Ivermectin. I don't think that was ever his inclination or his point. But that's how he was used and I see it all the time. Oh, you were wrong about ivermectin, now you take it. No, I wasn't wrong about Ivermectin. Yes, I did take it for a while. I don't know that it made any difference, but it didn't hurt me. It's a very safe drug. We need a review. Where did this come from? Because you know that this wet market theory is weak. Was it made. Was it made by someone for a specific reason? And it wasn't Tony Fauci, but was it somebody? And why did we get so up over this? And why was. Why were the protocols of what to do in terms of distancing of kids versus adults and duration of businesses? What did we learn so that we don't do it that way again, to the extent it didn't work? Well, all that matters and we will get none of those answers based on this two party system right now because there's no upside for either one.
- [13:16]
Unnamed Guest
That, that is certainly true. Let me ask you about Fauci. Since you, since you, you had a fair amount of contact with me, a lot of contact. What do you think of him? My impression of him is not that he's, you know, I don't, I don't. I'm not on the RFK side where he's, you know, intentionally killing beagles or that's about. But I do think he has a very healthy self regard and maybe wasn't the best guy to have essentially in charge in 2020.
- [13:44]
Alex Berenson
Okay, so different layers of analysis. One, I like Tony Fauci. I've known him most of my life. I met him when my father and he were battling AIDS and making it something more than the gay play. Okay. Which of course Tony was very right about. And his legacy was secured by what he did to change understanding of how to treat and address aids. Here was the mistake, okay? Tony's not a bad guy. He didn't create Covid. There's no proof of that. Even the gain of function stuff is being twisted all kinds of ways for political manipulation. And that's part of the party process. And Grievance and making people pissed off. However, however, however. And I said it to Tony Fauci at the time, okay? When you take a scientist and put him in the political messaging game, you have fucked up. Because in politics, change is weakness. You cannot change positions in politics or you get crushed. In science, all you do is change position. Right, so how did we see it? Well, one minute we were spraying everything. Every office was like out of Ghostbusters. Right? They're spraying everything down. Can't touch it. Can't touch it. No. Don't use a mask because it's touched. You're going to make yourself sick. Oh, okay. Then they realize it's aerosolized. Did they tell us that, the way they told us the stuff about touching? No. Why? Because now Tony wasn't doing what he had done his entire career, which is just talking science and best practices. Now, he had political accountability, and he had the Trump White House and then the Biden White House, both of whom shirked their duty to address the American people and put it on Fauci. Now, was it hubris, was it arrogance that allowed him to take up that mantle? Maybe. But I don't know who would have said no, to be honest. But with him in charge, you did not get the level of messaging that you needed because they were keeping things quiet because they were afraid of the effect on public confidence and that. I get why they did it. It was a mistake. It was wrong, but I get why they did it.
- [16:03]
Unnamed Guest
I get it.
- [16:04]
Alex Berenson
I get it. But that was a huge part of it. I don't see Tony as the malefactor. I see him as being set up. And he is a scientist. Okay. And he's an old man now also, by the way. But he knows. He knows things, and he did not twist them for advantage the way a politician would. I'm telling you, I don't believe that. But he should have never been in charge of messaging. It should have been Trump and his guys telling us what's changing and why it's changing. And it should have been Biden and his guys saying, look, it isn't working as well as it did early on. The vaccine, it's not working as well, but it's still better than nothing. That's really a political question. It's not a scientific question because the efficacy isn't there.
- [16:54]
Unnamed Guest
Right, but clearly the Biden administration, having essentially said the vaccine is going to end, Covid had a very hard time acknowledging the reality that it had.
- [17:03]
Alex Berenson
But. But that's why, see, a scientist wouldn't. Right. A Doctor wouldn't, okay, I've had doctors deal with me on Long Covid and say, all right, it's not working. It worked in Alex Berenson. It's worked in other people. It's not working for you. We got to try something else. You don't say, I'm getting a new doctor, right? You told me it would work. We know it's iffy in politics. They don't want to take those risks. And that's why they, you know, in my, in my opinion, they put it on Fauci and he didn't handle the responsibility well, but I wouldn't have expected him to. It's not what he does.
- [17:39]
Chris Cuomo
Support for the Chris Cuomo Project comes from Cozy Earth. Let me tell you something. When it comes to what to wear when you go to bed and what to be in when you go to bed, two words, Cozy Earth. Why I love how it feels. It helps me stay warm when it's cold. That helps me stay cool when it's warm. How, I have no damn idea. But I'm telling you, it works. And the more I wash them, and I'm an Italian American from Queens, we wash stuff all the time, these things don't break down. And they've actually gotten a little softer. Believe it or not, they started off soft. They make a sheet set out of bamboo that is so much more sustainable. So if you care about the environment and cutting down and what goes into our textiles, Cozy Earth is a no brainer. So wrap the ones you love in luxury with Cozy Earth. If you visit cozyearth.com Chris, you use my exclusive 40% off code, Chris, and you're going to give the gift of luxury this holiday season. Cozyearth.com Chris if you get a post.
- [18:41]
Alex Berenson
Purchase survey, please tell them where you heard about it.
- [18:44]
Chris Cuomo
The Chris Cuomo Project. Support for the Chris Cuomo Project comes from Select Quote. The older you get, the more you know that you have to provide for what you don't control. Life insurance when you're young, doesn't make sense. Life insurance, once you have a family, once you're an adult, once you own things, once you need to protect things, doesn't make sense if you don't have it. That's where Select Quote comes in. Selectquote is one of America's leading insurance brokers. They got 40 years of experience helping 2 million customers find over 700 billion in coverage since 1985. Now other life insurance brokers, you know, they do it more, kind of one size fits all, may cost more, may Cover less. That's where Select Quote does better. They have licensed insurance agents working for you to tailor a policy that meets your needs. Get the right life insurance for you for less@SelectQuote.com Chris C. All you have to do is go to SelectQuote.com Chris C today and you'll get started. SelectQuote.com Chris C. Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from 120 life. I've already told you I believe in this because we have high blood pressure in my family and we have gotten it under control. And part of the reason is 120 Life. 120 Life helps you manage blood pressure. And by the way, it's not just for high blood pressure. It's also beneficial for those with diabetes. It's a very valuable tool for overall health. It's endorsed by hundreds of doctors trusted by health care professionals, hundreds of doctors recommending it. It provides visible, measurable changes in blood pressure.
- [20:35]
Alex Berenson
How do you know?
- [20:36]
Chris Cuomo
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- [20:55]
Unnamed Guest
Two weeks.
- [20:55]
Chris Cuomo
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- [21:24]
Unnamed Guest
Let me. You mentioned Fauci being old and that, you know, got me thinking. You know, Fauci in his 80s, Biden in his 80s, Pelosi. Trump, Donald Trump. You know, Trump's almost 80 now, you know, for the last. I mean, Kamala Harris is almost 60 and she feels young. Right. I mean, she's not really young, but compared to our political class. Right. Been running things the last five, ten years. She's young. What, like, is that a problem? It feels like a problem to me. And is there any way to fix it?
- [21:59]
Alex Berenson
Yeah, of course there are ways to fix all this shit. The question is whether or not there's the will to fix any of it. And as long as the power dynamic stays so tight, you know, as long and look, that's part of what fuels Trumpism. I don't have any problem with the grievance, okay? I just think I wish they had picked a better agent. You know what I mean? I wish that a John McCain could have been the agent for it. I wish some military guy could, you know, someone who we know had some of the right stuff put in him or her, could be the agent of that and not just somebody who's riding it as a personal advantage. And I'm telling you, that's what Trump is doing. How can I say that? That's not fair. Okay, here's my case. I've known him longer than anybody watching this right now, okay? It's not even a close call. Our mothers went to the same beauty parlor. My father worked with him as a lawyer and as a politician. My brother worked with him as a politician. I'm telling you, I know the guy, okay? I interviewed him once for a. Before I was in the media for my brother's bachelor party tape, okay? That's how long I've known this guy.
- [23:02]
Unnamed Guest
Right?
- [23:03]
Alex Berenson
He has never been about any of the things he talks about now. His entire life, he has never been a part of any of these causes. And it's not because they didn't exist. It's because they didn't work for him. And he jumped in and out on the wagon. Train of animus and public outrage, demagoguery, always. That stupid shit he did with the Central Park Five and the death penalty and wanting to kill everybody. It was a perfect example. He's always hopped in and out. Why? Because the guy who taught him politics was a guy named Roy Cohn, and he was one of the best. He died when I was still a teenager, but I've known many people who knew him very well. And this was a guy who knew the dark arts of politics and how to use fear and messaging in the courtroom and in the room of public opinion. And that is what we're living through right now. Are there fixes? Yep. Like what? At a minimum. At a minimum, social media has to become much more of a commodity of people wanting better than wanting worse. The same players right now who go on and surf. You want to be a Republican, be a Republican. You want to be a Democrat, be a Democrat. I get it. You can't really be relevant if you're not a member of one of those two parties. I get it. You're right. I don't like that. But you're not wrong. You should be holding your party to account to be Better than something than it is right now. So in terms of what citizens can do, be a critical thinker, Go after your own. One, two. You gotta have open primaries. And don't say, we can't do that. Of course we can. The parties aren't in the Constitution. They're not creatures of law. They're tradition. They're culture. They have closed the primaries. The primaries should be open. Why? Because you will get rid of fringe candidates if you open it up to more people voting. The only reason you have infringe candidates is because you have such a small voting pool in the primaries. Make them open. Ranked choice voting is a good thing. And then I believe you need more parties. And it would be great if you could get term limits, but I think you need a constitutional amendment for that. And I don't think we could get a constitutional amendment that the name of this country is America. I think as soon as they proposed it, Alex, some lefties would come up with how Amerigo Vespucci was as bad as anybody else. And, you know, and they wouldn't want it. So I know there are fixes the media has a role in fixing, but really people have more of a role in fixing. And I believe you need more parties. Look at an established democracy and tell me who doesn't have a coalition government structure? I'm not saying we got to change structure. We don't have to be parliament to have parliamentary aspects to it. We do now. We have a parliamentarian that sits in the Congress, but we have multiple ones, actually. But those are some of the big ticket items that I think would make a difference.
- [25:53]
Unnamed Guest
Do you think that Trumpism and sort of the populism of the Republican Party. I know we can debate whether populism is the right term, but the. I'll call it populism because I don't know a better word for it. Do you think that outlasts Trump or do you think the Republican Party sort of returns to what it was 20 years ago?
- [26:16]
Alex Berenson
Well, there's no question that if Kamala Harris wins, Trumpism is dead. Yes, I know theoretically he could run again, but that party is desperate to get out from under him. Okay? Because you cannot have any disagreement with the man and have a history in the party. So they are desperate to get rid of him. There's no question about. I don't care who comes out and says, I'm not right. That person is lying. Okay? Because even if they're close to Trump, they want to get rid of Trump and they want to get back to Some semblance of what the party's supposed to be about. Why, if for no other reason, it's not growing, the party's not growing. He's just concentrating their basis of support.
- [27:03]
Unnamed Guest
But I got to disagree with you.
- [27:05]
Alex Berenson
Go ahead.
- [27:05]
Unnamed Guest
Clear. That black and Latino voters are going Republican this cycle. Even though there's still a minority of the Republic, you know, they're still voting primarily for Democrats. If you look at the numbers, they, they're voting a lot more for Trump than the Republican Party before Trump attracted.
- [27:22]
Alex Berenson
We don't, we don't know the numbers yet. We know in the last cycle there's been some movement. First of all, I'm not impressed. If he gets 15 versus 8, you can see.
- [27:34]
Unnamed Guest
What if he gets 25% of the black vote and 40% of Latino vote?
- [27:39]
Alex Berenson
Fine. There's no question that that'll make a difference in the two party balance. I'm not saying that. But one, the idea that they can keep those people is not true. Because what you're doing is you're amping up grievance. That's all you're doing. You're not solving any of it. You're not fixing any of it. The same reason that certain minorities may move away from Democrats is a certain same reason they won't stay with you. You saying these people have never done anything for you, but you're not going to do anything for them either? You know, they'll get it. But again, if I'm breaking 75, 25 with you in a demographic, I'm okay with that. Okay. I'm okay with.
- [28:12]
Unnamed Guest
Even if it used to be 95.
- [28:14]
Alex Berenson
5, it's better than 51 49.
- [28:17]
Unnamed Guest
Sure.
- [28:18]
Alex Berenson
So. So look again, in a two party system, Alex, you got to remember the zero sum nature of it. All I need is for you to lose. It's okay that I'm not doing that. Great. It's okay that people aren't that enthusiastic about me. But you're going to eat babies, you're going to kick puppies, you hate America and you're a bad guy. That's all we were doing. These days I have to find a way to fill in those blanks about Alex Berenson. Turns out his mother didn't really like him that much. Who says that? An unnamed source. Very close to the mother. All of a sudden, Alex is getting stupid questions about his mom. That is the nature of our politics right now. Kamala Harris is the dumbest woman I've ever met in my life, he says. And then all of a Sudden, we're talking about it. Then she wipes the floor with him in a debate because she's not so stupid after all, right? He goes right back to how stupid she is. Why? Because he is a master of doing what our politics has become. He's always done this. He's always lied, defied, and denied. That's what he does. I did a story on him 20 years ago where I was trying to nail down his net worth, Alex. And my lawyers at ABC News had me in a dialogue with him where he had to okay the number.
- [29:39]
Unnamed Guest
That's how afraid they were of him.
- [29:41]
Alex Berenson
Suing us because he threatened to sue. Not just me, not just abc, not just Disney, Alex. He threatened to sue my parents to damn me back to the womb for being untrue about him. And I would call him and say, so the biggest number anybody can give me on you is about 850 million. Oh, the conversation doesn't start under 3 billion. Based on what? You don't own the west, the rail yards, China does not. 3 billion or I sue. That was the conversation. So this is who the guy's always been. It just fits very well with politics because everybody else is so lacking and so little gets done, and it's all such bullshit. And they all lie and they all accuse the other ones of the same things that they do, and they're weaponizing the systems and agencies for their own benefits against everybody else now, including the court system. And all these people say the same shit, never do it. And it's an artificial world that doesn't match the rest of our reality, and we need to burn it down. That is the mentality that has captured a lot more people than the Democrats expected. And Trump is riding that wave. He didn't create it, he didn't advance it. He is just the mascot of it. And I believe without him, I don't know how they check that box in the Republican Party because they got to find somebody who has no connection to politics right now, as people understand that and that they come in as a change agent.
- [31:17]
Unnamed Guest
I mean, I think if you sort of look back, really, the last 20 years now, I mean, what made Trump, as much as anything in a. The one serious policy position that he took in 20, let's say, 13, 14. This is not about Obama and the birther stuff. The serious policy position that he took, that stood apart from the Republican Party, that the Republican base clearly liked him for, that, I would say made him, was his position on the Iraq war. The Iraq war was a mistake. We shouldn't have fought it. He said that when it was a Republican war. Right. And it was not okay to say that and to say that to Jeb Bush, whose brother had fought the war, and that, I mean, that was a serious break with the Republican Party. And I do think that to some extent, that started him down this path.
- [32:12]
Alex Berenson
I think that yes, comma. But his talking about the attendant issues around immigration is what really made him a standout. And the domestic issue of the present and the future is much more powerful than an assessment of the past. I don't disagree with you. I agree with you. But on the list of what distinguished him, the wall was what did it. And the rhetoric wasn't his either, by the way, because there's a reason he wasn't talking about immigration before that one election, which was. It never mattered to him.
- [32:49]
Unnamed Guest
Right.
- [32:50]
Alex Berenson
But listening to Tom Tancredo. Who's that, Alex? And I know you go Google it, you'll see, because he was saying the same, and he tutored Trump on it. The idea that Trump can't learn isn't true. Trump can hear things and want to make them his own, and he does that well. Steve King, Tom Tancredo. Those guys were talking about the fear of what I call the brown menace from the southern border, as Trump describes it. In my opinion, that is what distinguished him. And as fate would have it, the Democrats have misplayed the issue and absolutely made it worse. I've never seen a more stark example of a political party making a decision to do something that makes a situation worse. And that's why it's the first time. Now you can say, no, it's just because polls suck. Okay. I'm just telling you, to the extent that polls are what we look at, I've never seen immigration as a top two, three domestic issue. Now, some could say, well, yes, but it was in 2015. People just didn't say it, but that's why they voted for Trump. Okay, maybe so. But I think it could determine this election. I really believe this election is Trump's to lose because Harris has not been able to move the bar the needle from enragement to engagement. If you are somebody who wants to be pissed off about what's going on, I don't know how Harris wins. If you are somebody who gets why people are pissed off, but you want something done about it, she has a chance to win. And I don't know that she's moving that needle enough.
- [34:22]
Unnamed Guest
Well, you know, and I will say immigration, I think, you know, for a lot of people it's tied to the fact that, you know, that. That they can't, you know, as early young people cannot buy a house. Right. They feel. Yeah, the housing market is really not working for them right now. And they don't understand why. I don't fully understand why either, but clearly that, you know, this notion that, that people are coming in and, you know, competing for rentals and.
- [34:47]
Alex Berenson
Yeah, that's.
- [34:48]
Unnamed Guest
Houses is a problem. You don't think so? No, that's too economically driven.
- [34:54]
Alex Berenson
No, there's a supply, demand imbalance. We're upside down with supply and demand. It is not illegal migrants. Okay, no, no, I'm not.
- [35:04]
Unnamed Guest
They're not. I'm saying that this is a feeling that people have that is helping to drive this anger.
- [35:08]
Alex Berenson
I know, I know. And the problem is we are way. It's like, you know, I don't know where you are in the baby game, but being a parent three times over now, 14, 21, our politics has become like our parenting dynamic. Yes, I know you feel that way, but that's not how it is. Yeah, but I don't like that you want to say. And I, you know, that's where we are in our politics. People feel things and it. That you can't convince them any other way. You can't, because they want to feel that way and they have a group and they don't believe you and they're not wrong to not believe. I get it. I get it. That's why I have never fallen prey to, you know, look, when people are like, yeah, I'm going to take. I'm going to take the veterinary grade Ivermectin, because that's the cure all for. That was. That was stupid.
- [35:55]
Unnamed Guest
All right?
- [35:55]
Alex Berenson
And I know that people were coaxed to do it, but that's just dumb. Nobody takes pet grade medicine, you know, and gives it to their kids anyway. But in general, people are not wrong to feel the way they feel. They've just been led there wrongly. And even if you're right about a feeling, it doesn't mean it gets you to a better place. Housing. Why is there a housing shortage? Okay, Costs. Costs across the board is why there's a housing shortage. How so? Interest rates have moved. That was the last bit of the problem. We were upside down to begin with. Why? Because we have allowed costs to go up because they've been driving profits for the top tier of the economy and of the builder economy, and we have been allowing to exacerbate the gap. Interest rates were just the last kind of capitulation to that dynamic. But you have a housing market that dealt with the construction market, that dealt with rising costs by moving to high end. That's why bigger margins, more incentives. Why? Because the state, federal, state, city, municipality stopped subsidizing housing the same way that they were.
- [37:06]
Unnamed Guest
But worse than that, they've made it hard to build. Right. I mean, this is one thing where I think the solution is just going to screw things up. Right. Giving people more money to buy. When you don't improve supply, increase supply is just going to drive prices higher.
- [37:20]
Alex Berenson
Well, if you. Yeah, I see the same.
- [37:22]
Unnamed Guest
I agree.
- [37:23]
Alex Berenson
And maybe you're saying it in a better way. I understand it a little differently. And then you tell me. I see it as you're not changing the costs. You're artificially giving people money to handle the cost. But that's only going to raise the cost. Yep, that's right. Every time government money is put into the mix, the private sector adjusts its cost basis to reflect that. We see it in our health insurance all the time. As soon as the government is going to pony up, everybody raises their rates to kind of capture that amount plus more. So you've got to deal with the vigilance. How do you deal with the vid? Okay, now we're back to will. If the American people want housing that is not short term rental, because this short term rental, not really brbo, Airbnb, but they are symptoms of the problem. Moving away from ownership to rental because it's a better vig on the investment has changed the reality. So houses that were for sale at a certain price point are now not for sale. They are for rent. And you rent because the people who own that house and yes, private equity has got involved in it. How much? I don't know, but more than they ever were before. They definitely took advantage of the housing crisis in 2008. The same banks and private equity. That is an unknown boogeyman in our economic system, which is a lot of private individuals and institutions park cash and private funds and WAIT and REITs. Real estate investment trusts and different private equity players found a home in homes and now they own them and they want to rent them.
- [38:59]
Unnamed Guest
Why?
- [38:59]
Alex Berenson
They want the steady revenue flow. They already securitized the mortgages. This is a new revenue flow for them. So those houses you can't buy, you got to rent them. And renting is not as economically feasible for people because you're going to lose, you're going to build up nothing in it. Right. Your rent is wasted money unless you get a really low rate and the rents have gone up. So as Jordan Peterson instructs, there is no simple answer to a complex situation. And this is a complex situation. But if there is no will among the people to deal with it. And now the Democrats say, well, you just shit on Harris idea. But that's how we deal with it. No, that is playing into the problem. Giving me 35 grand to buy a house doesn't make the house 35 grand cheaper because they're going to adjust their prices now to account for the money that's been put into the system. So you have to do things that people don't want done in our economy, which is what put in price controls about how much money you can make on a house, about what you get incentivized to build and not.
- [40:01]
Unnamed Guest
So I don't think that, I don't think that's a good idea at all.
- [40:04]
Alex Berenson
Well, but what else would do it then? However, I think you should make it easier.
- [40:08]
Unnamed Guest
You should make it easier to build. You know, there may have to be higher density. You encourage people to build apartment buildings near. You know, I was, I was in.
- [40:17]
Alex Berenson
Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Those two ideas are sus. Okay. Density. We hated, we hated concentration of poverty and income class. We got away from it in Chicago and in New York and everywhere else.
- [40:31]
Unnamed Guest
Because people didn't want to bring together. You don't have to put up a 30 story housing project. I, I was in California in the Bay Area two weeks ago. Okay. And I did. There's a beautif new train that runs up the west side from, you know, from San Jose to San Francisco. It's, it's called the Caltrain. There's stations every like mile or two. It's nice there. There is no like even five to ten story apartment buildings there. It's impossible to build multifamily housing in much of California and it's gotten worse and worse in a lot of the country. That is a fixable problem with some political will. Okay, yes. And, and, and, and the idea that you need, that everything needs to be built to the highest green standard is nonsense. That just drives up costs. This is something where the Democrats, they've created a problem in an industry that actually works or worked pretty well until about 10 years ago. And we're all suffering for it.
- [41:31]
Alex Berenson
I don't disagree with both of your points. Again, we're not one move away and I'm fine with those things. Now there are reasons that they came in.
- [41:40]
Chris Cuomo
Most corrections in American society go too.
- [41:43]
Alex Berenson
Far and not fast enough. We keep seeing that even, especially culturally. This will sound weird given my background with my brother, but I was and remain a very big me too advocate. Okay, now people can say, oh, yeah, right, your brother. Look, we have different ideas about what my brother was accused of versus what was true. But that doesn't. It's not what matters. The correction went too far, too slow, and you got into the bold face, canceling business instead of changing policies. Has it really changed for people? Are people just afraid of whom they hire now? Or do you really have procedures in place in workplaces where people can be treated more fairly and not worry about harassment? Really? Because I haven't seen those stories and the reporting I've done myself proves no.
- [42:35]
Chris Cuomo
The culture really hasn't changed. It's just afraid now.
- [42:37]
Alex Berenson
And they blame people for not hiring them. So we overcorrect the green economy movement in construction. Overcorrected. Alex, you are correct. In my opinion, you are correct. That isn't as big a part of the price structure as I understand it. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. Urban planning. We stopped building big things and concentrating poverty and income type for a reason. We bailed out the wrong people in 2008. We bailed out the wrong people. You should have bailed out the homeowners, not the people who came up with bullshit ways to gain the interest rate system. We. We. Why? Because they have the power. And the guy who was doing it came from the bank. Paulson came from Goldman Sachs. Who did you think he was going to help? So there are fixes, but you got to have the will. Alex made a great point. We did not plan the conversation, but he sent me an email before we had the conversation and he was like, how come we don't talk about housing more? Because you're not voting on it, that's why. Because you're not afraid of it the same way, that's why. But Alex is dead on, right? If you wanted to pick on an issue that affects a lot of people in the country outside the fringes of the most angry, magnified minorities in our party system, housing would be at the top of your list. But it isn't. Why? That's not what our politics is about.
- [44:10]
Chris Cuomo
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- [46:26]
Alex Berenson
They don't want to fix, they just want to scare you about what's broken and who they blame for.
- [46:31]
Unnamed Guest
Let me ask you, so when the election is, you know, three weeks away now, who's going to win?
- [46:39]
Alex Berenson
This is the closest one I've seen since 2004. I realize I'm dating myself, but I'm fucking old, okay?
- [46:45]
Unnamed Guest
I embraced it.
- [46:46]
Alex Berenson
Alex has got all that dark hair. He's young. All right, this is what happens. This is what happens with the kids in the college and being in this business, having Trump try to throw you in jail. This is what happens. I believe it's his election to lose. I believe that this is an election that's turning on grievance. I am not endorsing Donald Trump. I have not red pilled and all this stupid binary Talk. Okay. I would never be a Republican. I would never be a Democrat. But your daddy, this isn't his party. A lot of Trump supporters were my father's supporters. Okay? It's not all white bigots that support Trump. That's not true. Do bigots support Trump? Yeah. Why? And reason in most cases, as far as I'm concerned. But there are a lot of people I know, there are a lot of people I love who are voting for Trump. Well, then you shouldn't love them now. You're part of the problem. Oh, well, they don't understand. Now you're debasing people that you can't be better than. And that's what the Democrats have done wrong. They missed what this was in 2015, what it was about. Look, she wasn't wrong to call it a basket of deplorables. Hillary Clinton. There are a lot of bad people who got into that Trump tent early for the wrong reasons, in my opinion. But there are a lot of people who say this system sucks. It's all about them. And it's about money and it's about doing nothing. And they lie all the time. And I hate it. And he hates it, too. So I'm for him. I just don't think he's going to make it any better. But I do believe that this election is about grievance. And if it is a grievance election and you look at how tight, you know, if the polls are wrong, great.
- [48:24]
Unnamed Guest
I'm happy to be wrong.
- [48:25]
Alex Berenson
And I'm not Nostradamus. I just have a big nose. If Harris isn't winning the popular vote by 3 to 7 million people, I don't know how Democrats win the Electoral College. We haven't seen that in the modern era. So it being knotted up in the popular vote is meaningful. I know that our election doesn't function on the popular vote exclusively, but it is an indicia of reliability of what's going to happen in the Electoral College, especially about the Democrats. So it being knit up, you got to look at the 2004 election. Now, the big difference between 2004 and now was we did not have a cult fit involved in that election. We had quite the opposite. But Trump is a cult figure. People will vote for him without scrutiny because of their feelings about the status quo. And the Democrats challenge was, yeah, you.
- [49:18]
Unnamed Guest
Gotta get the people who are afraid.
- [49:19]
Alex Berenson
Of Trump, that's fine. And I'm doing a podcast on it right after we finish here about the realities of him as a threat and what the right adjustment is to it. But it was a hot. It's a harder task for the Democrats. I understand that there's a reason that the Greek gave us the word the demagogue. They did not give us a positive opposite. I don't know what the Greek word is for somebody who courts votes and approval and opinion and consensus on the basis of love and connectivity. I don't know. I guess, Jesus, you call it. I don't know. But there's a reason for that and it works. And it's harder for Democrats in this environment. It's harder. It was easier for them the last time. Why Trump sucked. The pandemic was a nightmare. He botched it. And Biden was a boring old guy who was going to come in and get us away from Captain Chaos. That was an easy analysis. And Trump was losing that race all the way through and he lost Very, very tight. But look who he was running against. He was running against the guy who had never had a chance at being president before unless, God forbid, something had happened to Obama. So I believe it's Trump's election to lose, not because I think he should win, but because I think that's what the state of play is. And look, I think Harris, I applaud the Democrats coming together and their coalescence in a bad situation. They should have never let Biden decide to run again. They should have had a primary process. I don't think Harris would have won it personally. And I will be surprised if she wins now because of what I think about the state of play in this country. It's not an indictment of her. I don't think she's bad. I don't think she's a communist. And I think she wiped the floor with him in a debate even more than Hillary Clinton did. But that's not really enough when people are pissed off about something that matters more to them than what they saw on the debate stage. And that's where we are. I hear from people all the time, so do you, Alex. Your friends come to you all the time and be like, come on, man, you don't think it screwed up that. Blah. You don't think the FBI, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, no, no irs, but, you know, that's where we are.
- [51:21]
Unnamed Guest
I mean, I think the thing that, the one thing that you're underestimated and I guess I broadly agree with your analysis. But I don't see it as. I don't see it as Trump having a clear cut advantage because of abortion. Immigration is a very powerful issue for Republicans and abortion isn't even more powerful of an issue for the Democrats. And I think in a state like New York where abortion restrictions really are not an issue, you. You don't really feel it the way you do in a, in a, you know, in, in the Midwest, where this is a real issue for women and men, too, but really for women.
- [51:58]
Alex Berenson
Now, with all due respect, okay, I am not some New York house mouse, okay? I get around the country, and I have a pretty decent amount of exposure to people in different places. I was just sitting in the sock for a few days in Florida. But she isn't going to win. But if you don't think women there, we're talking about not abortion. Abortion is a single procedure, okay? This is the first class of citizens, let alone the fact that they're the majority of the country who have had a right or protection taken from this.
- [52:30]
Unnamed Guest
That's right. That's right.
- [52:31]
Alex Berenson
We have not seen that in our lifetime. It is not about a single procedure. It is about a huge, huge line in our society. And we saw immediately with IVF coming into the discussion now you're talking about Chris and Alex. Wait, hold on a second. You don't want. We want to protect the baby, okay? There is a political currency in that. That's a basis of our traditional Christian belief, okay? Forget about the fact that you don't give a shit about the baby once it comes out of the chute, okay? But you care about it inside. You have now taken away the choice structure from somebody with respect to how they use their body. Right? We've never heard about that. This should absolutely be the dog that caught the car for the Republican Party. But it is. Why? Because of married women, single women. Trump is going to get spanked like a naughty child in the 60s, and rightly so. But I do not agree with you that it is tracking like immigration, because I think you get married women who absolutely should care about this, married men. I'm telling you, the IVF thing scrambled my eggs a little bit because I had always. Look, I'm in favor of reproductive rights, okay? And you're not going to scare me away with what a baby looks like. I've got three kids, okay? Yeah, I don't want to hear it. All right? And we had to end the pregnancy because we had a kid that hadn't developed any brain function. And it was agonizing for my wife, okay? It was agonizing. And I felt for her then, and I understood it, and it sucked. But you had to do what you had to do. You're Going to take that choice away from her.
- [54:13]
Unnamed Guest
Right.
- [54:13]
Alex Berenson
And give it to some bunch of assholes in the state that are just playing on advantage of the moment. No, thank you. And now ivf, so my equipment isn't working. I can't get my wife pregnant. You're going to change my choice structure? You're even going to discuss it? No, thank you. Talk about stay out of it. You want to go burn all the books you want. Don't tell me how I can make a family and how I can't. So I think it's a very powerful issue. One, the Democrats have not magnified it the way we are right now. Two married women have other concerns than just this. And they have been played to more and more effectively. I argue now, could I be wrong 100%. I was wrong in the midterms. Biden should have gotten spanked. He didn't. Why this issue?
- [54:58]
Unnamed Guest
Right. That's it. That's what I think about a lot. You know, I thought there'd be a big red wave in 2022, and there was not. And it really was because of abortion.
- [55:06]
Alex Berenson
And you know why? You're also right. Melania Trump, where'd that video come from? Trump didn't say anything about it. Melania comes out and she's like, I'm in favor of reproductive rights. Why? You don't think he would. You don't think he would have gone nuts if he thought that that issue was a winner from him the way he has?
- [55:24]
Unnamed Guest
Right.
- [55:25]
Alex Berenson
Melania Trump came out and was in favor of reproductive rights and he didn't say shit about that video. So the idea that he had her put it out. No, because he would have taken credit for it. So he's staying quiet, which the guy can almost not do. So why did she come out and say that? You've never heard a candidate's wife come out and take that kind of position against them before.
- [55:48]
Unnamed Guest
Right.
- [55:49]
Alex Berenson
And we don't even talk about it because how much crazy sauce we have going on in our politics right now. But that shows you the potential of the issue. Now, I don't think Melania Trump saying something about it matters to women because I don't think people see her as any kind of real steward of her husband's suggestion. But I don't think that you're wrong. I just don't see it playing as if you're right in the current state of play. I think it should be. Having a right taken away from the majority of the country is crazy. I can't believe it doesn't matter more. But I'm not seeing proof of it in the polling.
- [56:23]
Unnamed Guest
Right. All right, well, we will find out in three weeks because this was a real pleasure.
- [56:27]
Alex Berenson
I thought you were going to attack me about cnn.
- [56:30]
Unnamed Guest
Ah, you know, it got too. We were too much else to talk about.
- [56:33]
Alex Berenson
Next time, Listen, I'm always here for the conversation. And again, you know, look, this is a new audience, this substack audience, certainly for me. And I am on substack for different reasons that I'm at News Nation. I talk a lot about Long Covid and a lot about what I've learned about longevity and a lot of what I've learned about life and things that I don't do well. Even now, I don't do well. But I know they're really helpful ideas for people and how they live their life. That's what the substack is for me. And I charge. I charge five bucks a month because my doctor. I'm giving money to my doctor to treat people with long Covid who can't afford it. And so that's, you know, that's.
- [57:15]
Unnamed Guest
It's a. Substack is a great platform. Unreported truth, you know, on Twitter, when Twitter banned me, you know, and I've got this big lawsuit against the federal government and against a couple officials.
- [57:25]
Alex Berenson
You're gonna win.
- [57:27]
Unnamed Guest
Let's hope. I certainly hope so. But when Twitter banned me, substack was the only place for me. And substack came under pressure for allowing me to speak, and they stood by me, and I will never forget them for that. Really?
- [57:39]
Alex Berenson
Look, I followed it. I followed it closely. And let me tell you something. One, I believe you're right, okay? As Chris Cuomo, I believe Alex is right. Why let Alex be wrong all day long? And that will allow better ideas to win. If you censor somebody, all you do is make. In my opinion, I cared more about what Alex said when he got kicked off Twitter. Yeah, because you shouldn't. We don't do that here. Alex can be wrong. Alex can be wrong. I'm wrong all the time. If you censor my opinion, you now give something that's wrong power. And it was a huge mistake. I'm glad you're on substack. I'm glad they had the balls to stand up and allow the best ideas to win.
- [58:27]
Unnamed Guest
Yep. All right, sir, we will do this again soon.
- [58:31]
Alex Berenson
All right? And look, usually I don't allow guys who are younger and have better hair than me to be this close in a shot proximity, but I think the conversation mattered enough. And I hope folks there liked it. I hope you subscribe on my site. I hope you check out News Nation. I've never worked at a place that allows me the freedom that the place does. I think they're going to be really big things for News Nation. I mean, I'll be alive, but I believe in it and I believe in what Baringson is doing for you here on Substack. I don't think everybody on here is like him. I really don't. There are a lot of people who got a lot more platform then they have potential in my opinion. In my opinion. But I've been doing this a long time and I've won a lot of awards for journalism. And I'm telling you, you can smell when somebody's fugazi. Alex, I wish you continued success. I'm always a call away. Thank you for doing this. You too.
- [59:21]
Unnamed Guest
Thanks, man. Have a good one.
- [59:22]
Alex Berenson
All right, bye, everybody.
- [59:30]
Chris Cuomo
I hope you enjoyed the conversation with me and Alex Berenson here on Substack. Please follow him and subscribe to me.
- [59:39]
Alex Berenson
Okay.
- [59:39]
Chris Cuomo
Because the whole point is to get people who are willing to pay for what I'm putting out. And I do believe the value proposition is there. For five bucks a month to get four different things that I'm putting out in four different areas of life and thought, I think it's a pretty good deal. So I'll see you here on substack, YouTube, at News Nation, all the social media platforms. It's all about reach and trying to create a community that wants to see conversation take us to a better place.