BREAKING: Ex-Chief of Staff Frank Carone on Eric Adams’ Independent Run for NYC Mayor

Summary

The Chris Cuomo Project: Detailed Summary of Episode "BREAKING: Ex-Chief of Staff Frank Carone on Eric Adams’ Independent Run for NYC Mayor"

Release Date: April 3, 2025
Host: Chris Cuomo
Guest: Frank Carone, Former Chief of Staff to Mayor Eric Adams

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, host Chris Cuomo engages in an in-depth conversation with Frank Carone, the former Chief of Staff to New York City Mayor Eric Adams. Drawing from decades of political and legal experience, Carone provides a nuanced perspective on the current state of American politics, the dynamics within New York City, and Mayor Adams' controversial independent run for reelection.

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2. State of American Politics Today

Frank Carone opens the discussion by reflecting on the increasingly polarized nature of American politics. He emphasizes the need to reduce rhetoric and ideological fervor to foster national unity.

• Notable Quote (01:19):

  "I don't view politics as a religion... It's unfortunate to see how aggressive the narrative and the conversation has become. Bad for my children, bad for my children's children."

Carone underscores the detrimental effects of political divisiveness, highlighting its impact on future generations and the social fabric of the country.

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3. Comparing Politics: Today vs. the 1980s

When asked about the differences between the current political climate and that of the 1980s, Carone attributes the changes largely to the advent of social media and the information age, which have accelerated the pace of political discourse and reduced opportunities for thoughtful, communal discussions.

• Notable Quote (02:08):

  "With the social media and information age, it's gotten a little too fast. Not a chance to calm down, digest what you're hearing."

This shift, according to Carone, has led to heightened tensions and a lack of meaningful dialogue at the dinner table, as was more common in past decades.

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4. Lessons Learned from Working with Mayor Eric Adams

Carone shares both positive and negative experiences from his tenure at City Hall. He praises the government's potential to effect positive change but criticizes the prevalent self-serving attitudes and distrust among officials.

• Notable Quote (02:58):

  "The biggest positive lesson I learned is that government can do good... The raw ambition and the sort of distrust that exists among so many people... that's the most disappointing."

This duality reflects the complexities of public service, where idealism often clashes with political realities.

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5. Ranked Choice Voting and its Impact

Frank Carone expresses his opposition to ranked choice voting (RCV), recounting his efforts to halt its implementation. Despite his legal challenges, RCV's adoption influenced the mayoral race dynamics, showcasing coalition-building among voters.

• Notable Quote (03:57):

  "I'm a fan of open primaries... I believe ranked choice voting isn't the best system."

Carone's skepticism towards RCV stems from his belief in more inclusive and straightforward electoral processes.

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6. Mayor Adams' Independent Mayoral Run

The core of the episode revolves around Mayor Eric Adams' decision to run independently for reelection. Carone discusses the strategic motivations behind this move, the challenges it presents, and its implications for party politics.

• Notable Quote (11:36):

  "The mayor is a non-judgmental person. If he believes a person is sincere and the best at what they do, he'll surround himself with them."

Carone highlights Adams' leadership style and his ability to rally support despite political setbacks, emphasizing the mayor's resilience and commitment to public service.

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7. Perception vs. Reality of New York City

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the stark contrast between New York City's perceived state and its actual metrics. Carone points out that while media narratives may paint a dire picture, data on affordable housing, public safety, and economic growth tell a more optimistic story.

• Notable Quote (19:37):

  "We dealt with a real crisis... the Adams administration has transitioned 185,000 migrants out of their system."

He argues that effective governance has led to tangible improvements, even if public perception lags behind.

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8. Frank Carone's Departure from City Hall

Carone explains his decision to leave City Hall, emphasizing the importance of balancing professional responsibilities with personal life. He believes in the healthy practice of professionals transitioning out of government roles to pursue private endeavors.

• Notable Quote (05:52):

  "I resigned the day that I began, and I told him and everybody in the team that up front. And I believe that's healthy."

His candidness provides insight into the personal sacrifices and ethical considerations inherent in public service.

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9. The Role of Civility in Modern Politics

The conversation delves into the erosion of civility within political discourse. Carone advocates for respectful disagreement and the avoidance of incendiary language, drawing from his experiences in City Hall.

• Notable Quote (27:06):

  "The mayor... has courage to speak his mind when he believes it to be correct."

He underscores the importance of maintaining decorum and professionalism, even amidst heated political battles.

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10. Frank Carone’s Book and Philosophical Insights

Frank Carone discusses his latest book, which builds on his experiences in politics and law. He emphasizes the principles of negotiation, empathy, and long-term relationship building, aligning with Stoic philosophies that prioritize collective over individual egos.

• Notable Quote (39:50):

  "Ego is the biggest obstacle to advancing so many different projects... put your ego aside and focus on the job."

Carone's insights into overcoming personal biases and fostering collaborative environments resonate with both political and business audiences.

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11. Conclusion: Looking Ahead to the Mayoral Race

In wrapping up, Carone remains optimistic about Mayor Adams' prospects despite federal indictments and political challenges. He believes that Adams' record of accomplishments and authentic leadership will ultimately persuade voters.

• Notable Quote (30:33):

  "The mayor has done more for affordable housing than any mayor in history... I believe his chances [of reelection] are strong."

Carone's endorsement underscores a belief in effective leadership and the potential for political renewal in New York City.

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Key Takeaways

• Political Polarization: Current American politics are highly divisive, necessitating a reduction in ideological rhetoric to promote unity.

• Electoral Systems: Frank Carone is critical of ranked choice voting, advocating instead for open primaries to better represent voter will.

• Leadership and Governance: Effective governance can lead to significant urban improvements, even if public perception remains negative.

• Civility in Discourse: Maintaining respect and professionalism in political discussions is essential for constructive outcomes.

• Personal Sacrifice in Public Service: Balancing professional duties with personal life is crucial for sustainable public service.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Frank Carone (01:19):

  "I don't view politics as a religion... It's unfortunate to see how aggressive the narrative and the conversation has become."

• Frank Carone (02:58):

  "The biggest positive lesson I learned is that government can do good... The raw ambition and the sort of distrust that exists among so many people... that's the most disappointing."

• Frank Carone (03:57):

  "I'm a fan of open primaries... I believe ranked choice voting isn't the best system."

• Frank Carone (11:36):

  "The mayor is a non-judgmental person. If he believes a person is sincere and the best at what they do, he'll surround himself with them."

• Frank Carone (19:37):

  "We dealt with a real crisis... the Adams administration has transitioned 185,000 migrants out of their system."

• Frank Carone (05:52):

  "I resigned the day that I began, and I told him and everybody in the team that up front. And I believe that's healthy."

• Frank Carone (27:06):

  "The mayor... has courage to speak his mind when he believes it to be correct."

• Frank Carone (39:50):

  "Ego is the biggest obstacle to advancing so many different projects... put your ego aside and focus on the job."

• Frank Carone (30:33):

  "The mayor has done more for affordable housing than any mayor in history... I believe his chances [of reelection] are strong."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the critical discussions between Chris Cuomo and Frank Carone, offering listeners a clear understanding of the episode's core themes and insights.

Transcript

[A]

Location the lab. Quentin only has 24 hours to sell his car. Is that even possible? He goes to Carvana.com. what is this, a movie trailer? He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate. Wow, that's a great offer. The car is sold, but will Carvana pick it up in time for. They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning. Done with the dramatics. Car selling in record time. Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today. Pickup fees may apply.

[B]

You want to know why Mayor Adams just announced what he did? Let's talk to one of his main advisors. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Frank Caron knows all things Eric Adams. He worked with him in city hall. He's part of his defense team. He's one of his main advisors. He's been through hell with Adams and he's been through hell himself. You want some perspective, let's get after it. Frank, thank you for joining us.

[A]

Pleasure to be here. Thank you for allowing me a chance to speak to you.

[B]

What do you think as a legal, as a political and as a media savvy guy, what do you see as the state of play in American politics right now?

[A]

You know, it's interesting, that question and we talk about it a lot. Mayor Adams and I, close friends and also many of my friends. I'm a patriot at heart. I served in the United States Marine Corps. My grandfather fought in a barrel of bullets. So I think there's a lot more needed that we tone down rhetoric, tone down ideology. I don't view politics as a religion. Some people act that way and it is a method to elevate the entire country. And we got to remember we are one country, one people. It's unfortunate to see how aggressive the narrative and the conversation has become. Bad for my children, bad for my children's children. And I think rips apart the fabric of the country. So it's disappointing to see the vitriolic nature of politics today.

[B]

How is it different than it was in the 80s?

[A]

It's hard to be to say. You know, I was busy chasing girls and being a teenager in Kenoshy, so I wasn't that focused. Although I was attending the Thomas Jefferson Democratic Club back then, my dad made me on my own walk in there and say hello to Tony Genovese and Frank Sidio and Kearney Catcher and the whole gang. But I think with the social media and information age, it's gotten a little too fast. Not a chance to calm down, digest what you're hearing. And formulate an opinion around the dinner table like we used to do.

[B]

What was the biggest lesson positive, biggest lesson negative that you learned? Being in house with Mayor Adams at City Hall.

[A]

You know, the biggest positive lesson I learned is that government can do good and there's a lot it can do to help, you know, move the economy and elevate everyone to a place that they aspire to be. Negative is the self serving nature of it. The raw ambition and the sort of distrust that exists among so many people and the disappointment you find from folks who you thought were aligned. And if polling goes a certain way, the wind blows a certain way, next thing you know they're at each other's throats. So that's the most disappointing. And as a person, I don't live my life that way, so it's very difficult to be around.

[B]

Does Mayor Adams, not just because he won, but because of the process that you watched unfold. Does Mayor Adams first election bear witness to you of the value of ranked choice voting?

[A]

No, I'm not a fan. Matter of fact, I actually brought litigation to stop it in 21. But if we would have brought the, the suit a little earlier, perhaps it would have had better success. But the judge did not want to disenfranchise overseas military men and women. So those ballots were about to go out. It was too late. I felt like, I remember round one, Bear Adams was up on Maya Wiley 90,000 votes. And by the end of the sixth or seventh round, I don't remember which round, my wallet dropped all the way off and Catherine Garcia came within 8,000 votes. It's strange, you know, people do form coalitions and I'm not sure the purpose behind it.

[B]

Well, the counter is Adams is proof that it works because he was the most moderate candidate in that field. And over time, even though he didn't have 50% right out of the box, he made more sense to, to more people, no matter what their personal preference was.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's an argument. I'm a fan of open primaries, like particularly having California. That method I think would sort of enfranchise voters more than current state.

[B]

What do you say to the party folks that you and I grew up with was, hey, what do you mean you want to let people into the club to vote for our own guy? They're going to sabotage us. They're not our people. Why would you want to do that?

[A]

And bring it back to point one, we're all New Yorkers, we're all Americans. And listen, I'm a quintessential company insider. And I've used that skill set to my advantage. The party's advantage for two decades doesn't mean it's the best system. Now, with the benefit of experience and age behind me, I believe it's not the best system.

[B]

What do you want people to know about why you left City Hall?

[A]

It was a great privilege to serve the city as chief of staff, particularly with a new administration where you could create the culture, create the team, and actually do things that you've always dreamed of doing. It's always a privilege I'll never forget and one that I thank the mayor for asking me to do. But I said to the mayor the day he asked me, and, well, actually a couple days later, when I started over with my family, you know, I have a private practice, I have responsibilities. I can do this. I can set this in a way that I think best together. But I can only serve one year. So I resigned the day that I began, and I told him and everybody in the team that up front. And I believe that's healthy. By the way. I know it happens more often in Washington and D.C. than it does in local government, but professionals parachuting in and out of government, sharing their experience, I think it's healthy. It's not done as often, of course, they took that a lot of attention. I do believe it should happen more often.

[B]

So you have lived through, are living through something where you were questioned personally, politically, your faith, your religion. What made you decide? Well, I'm still going to stay in the business. I'm still going to stay in this fight. I'm still going to have my firm and we're going to consult and I'm going to be part of the political process. Why, with all this stink that you've had to waft through?

[A]

A little bit of stubbornness, truthfully, I like challenges. I like working on difficult projects. And it's still a privilege to do. It's something that's in my blood. When I believe in a person and I could be authentic and we're aligned, I would not do it as a business for an individual, let's say in politics, that I didn't believe in. It was authentic and incredible. In contrast that to when I lawyering, when I I completely, you know, thought inside of a box and I was focused on the client, not my personal views. In politics, it's a little different.

[B]

You sound like my brother. You know, I. I say to him, listen, you know, I mean, my brother, I have to explain this to you, but, you know, once Someone you love in your family wants something, you're there. And. But I was like, but why this? I mean, haven't you done enough after everything you've been through? Why don't you go make money some other way? Why don't you serve some other way? What is it about public service that makes it worth the beating that comes along with it?

[A]

You know, it's just this feeling when you're accomplishing something that you can really can't describe in words. It's doing, you know, helping people. It's listening, you know, fixing intractable problems and dealing with, you know, different sides of an issue that seem to be completely at odds and then finding common ground. It's very rewarding. And also part of it is, like you just said, you're there when your family calls on you. You develop relationships, and those relationships you want to fight for and continue to, you know, do what you can as a friend and as a colleague. And it's just something that the more you're called on, I guess, the better, more success you have. You become a victim of that, and all you're asked to help. And, you know, you come from the same background as I do. We're loyal individuals in our nature. And when someone asks, you want to do it together with the challenge and the good you could really do. Completely different from private sector. And it's. It's definitely not at all about, you know, earning or making a living. It's the opposite of that. It's spending time and spending a lot of time without thanks and without paying. But there is a rewarding side to it, and I can't explain why we keep coming back to it, but we all do.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

What do you want people to understand about what happened with the people around Mayor Adams and the eventual federal indictment that came against him?

[A]

Well, well the first part of your question is the people around him and I remember Buddy Ryan coaching Eagles, what he was cutting or not re signing Chris Carter and he was getting criticism. He says all he does is for a touchdown. And I say the same thing about the people around the Bay. Everyone, all they've done is create success and achieve things. You know, everyone. The mayor is a non judgmental person. If he believes if a person sincere and is the best at what they do, he'll surround himself with him. Sometimes he gets stung by that decision. But I believe that most of the people around the mayor really great public servants and have a track record of success just like Chris Connor, only scoring touchdowns. In terms of the mayor's, you know, the sort of rite of passage he's gone through, it's been a humble experience for anyone. And again being starting my career as a defense lawyer in the early 90s, seeing what families go through and the stress, it's, it's really difficult. But I give him a lot of credit for keeping his head up high, allowing people who have to move on move on without judgment and without criticism. So he's the more that I get to know him through these trials. And that's like I think anything when someone goes through and you're in the trenches, you feel like an extra bond and respect and that's how I feel.

[B]

People can check this for themselves. But I have been an open critic of the indictment against the mayor. I thought it was weak sauce the guys around him. I see some of those cases differently than you but let the process play out. I certainly didn't see him as being connected to the mayor, other than, as you mentioned, his judgment about who he has around him. That's a fair question. That's a fair criticism. But the cases have to play out. And of course, my brother is running in the same primary as the mayor. My brother is not a, an enemy of the mayor. I haven't heard him go out of his way to attack Eric personally, but that's sometimes part of politics. But I'm not against Eric Adams, that's for sure. And I don't like the deal that Trump made him make. As far as I'm concerned, I think that either you think someone deserves clemency or a pardon and you dismiss the charges or you don't. But do you think it was fair to Adams that the Trump administration kept hooks in him until the let's see what happens after the election? I don't know how that's fair to Adams.

[A]

No. No. You know, just a couple of points in what you just said. When we get to the the conclusion of where the Justice Department came. Yes, the mayor also used Governor Cuomo as a friend. I remember when we've had early on after governor's troubles, we would routinely meet with him for dinner and we were happy to do so. When we received criticism for it, our answer was, we have a lot, lot to learn from this man. He's been a great public servant for a long time and we'll meet who we want to meet. And I was proud to be at those meetings and proud to say that, and I feel similar. Governor Coleman, great respect that I've said over and over again. I can assure you, Chris, there was no deal. For someone who's at some of these meetings, it was never, ever discussed whatsoever how the Justice Department came to their conclusions. You have to ask them why they decided to move the way they did. Only they know I'm not privy to that. I can tell you it was without question, not a deal because what are you getting in return? It just doesn't work that way.

[B]

Explain to me what the theory is of the campaign. As I've said to my brother in the the party has a problem with you. That also seems pretty clear about Adams. Also, the party has a problem with him. Why run at all? Why run as a Democrat when you know the party has a problem with you?

[A]

That's a great question. The party has a problem, period, full stop at the moment, as evidenced by the recent elections on a national level. And I think what the party stands for and does it stand for the working Class and middle America. Or does it not? Or does it stand for ideology and advocacy and yelling and screaming? I think the party itself is doing some soul searching. I don't see a clear message from the party that's going to engender itself back to the middle class and working people. Not that it can't. Not that it won't. But at the moment, I think the party has a problem outside of Eric Adams and Governor Cuomo.

[B]

My. Although depends who you ask. They are the problem, depending on who you ask in that party. Right now, I can't tell you when I'm on the subways, especially if I'm heading out of Manhattan into Queens. Man. There is a wing of your party that is really. I mean, listen, I grew up in this party, right? I never have been a Democrat unless it was to vote for. For a Cuomo. Otherwise. I've always been an independent. I don't. I'm not a particular fan of the Democratic Party, but it's not my father's Democratic Party. There's a lot of way out there, radical culture, ideas that my father never had on his radar screen.

[A]

You know, I completely agree with that. And the same with me. I grew up in Bill Clinton, Democrat, you know, under the learning from John F. Kennedy, from your dad, both speeches. There was a message. It was clear it was compromised and you move things forward. Your brother says often what progressive is progress. That's what we stood for. And I agree that there's a loud minority that is usurped the party. And I think we're gonna. It'll come full circle and be fixed. But really, like you said, when I'm out with the maze, a real dichotomy, Chris, that I found and this gives me some comfort in May, his reelection chances. When I'm out and about with him, which is often, I see a dichotomy between how the general public greets him, how they exchange pleasantries, they offer pleasantries. We can't walk a half a block without taking several dozen photos. And then I hear the political pundits and the hyper insiders. The polling. Polling has done very specific to. And then I look at the success where we were January 1, 2022. You know, primate record numbers, tourism at record lows, offices empty storefronts being vandalized, mental illness not identified as a proximate cause of crime and of disarray, et cetera, et cetera. And fast forward to today. I was talking to a friend recently who's a large partner in one of the largest law firms but he likes to invest in restaurants. And he said, you know, I have 10 in New York City. And not to say what those 10 are. You should be named all 10 because all 10 are profitable. And then I was thinking to myself, who's this? When do you ever hear that? And who works in these restaurants and not trying to get a reservation? So you're seeing the city more to do, Always more to do. Right. We're not perfect. Always more to do, but we're moving in the right direction. So when I see the mayor's greetings on the street, I see a success. And I see we've had probably a billion dollars worth of negative ads surrounding the indictment. His story has not been told, and when he does, hopefully the people recognize the work that he's done and give him another chance.

[B]

What do you see as the explanation for this perception that New York City is like it was when you and I were 10 to 15 years old?

[A]

It's hard for me to answer, to answer that because I know too much. I know the stats, and they're in my mind so often. So I'm not really objective to that question at all. But I guess if I had to step out of it and answer it, we dealt with a real crisis. The migrant crisis is a real thing. I remember arguing with the Biden administration as chief of staff for a decompression strategy, arguing for work visas, doing my executive order. And I was told time and time again, no. And that argument continued. And I thought it was just not sustainable and unfair to just absorb all of that into pockets of cities, particularly New York City. And the Adams administration has transitioned 185,000 migrants out of their system and out of their care. But having so many individuals looking for a better life, you want being magnanimous about it, but not working because they can't work without work visas. But in Midtown and online to get into buildings, gets a sense of what's happening here. It doesn't look like the city that, you know, is bustling and working and people, because you have individuals there, you know, you know, I guess in pockets. So that could add to some of the feeling. Other than that, you know, there's just a hyper attention on isolated occurrences. Of course, transit, you know, there's a lot of policing is needed there and that's being addressed. Mental illness, the laws that prevented, you know, individuals from being detained if they're a danger to themselves and others has to be changed. So you add all that. I guess it adds to the feeling that the city is not going in the right direction. But when you look at the real numbers, it says it different, paints a different story. So for me, it's hard for me to, you know, really answer the question when I know about it.

[B]

Well, there's perception and there's reality. And in politics the former usually beats the latter. And I'm not saying I share the perspective. I'm just saying I can't remember the last time I had people asking me if it's safe enough to bring their family to the city.

[A]

We'll go back to the 70s Christian question you remember wasn't this dirty a nightmare?

[B]

It was nothing like today.

[A]

I used to sell parties on the element and take you to Broadway junction late 70s. It was scary. But you know you yet you mind your business. You got through it. But it's nothing like what is the.

[B]

Thinking as to why a case could be made to run as an independent?

[A]

I think the mayor is going to have a assuming he runs to takes that route, he's going to part of the challenge. And the challenge to get the story out will be he is a still a Democrat running on an independent line. And that independent line will be called whatever it's going to be called. And so that will be the challenge in educating the voting population. Hey, I'm still leading incumbent. I am the mayor. This is the track record I did despite the perception and I guess getting messaging, all those successes and all the work that he's done to New Yorkers is something that he's up for and will do. He has work to do. Of course, we all do. And then it's educating people that it's just another line on a document, it's just another column. Just like, you know, great Mario Cuomo did in 1977 in the Liberal mind almost to almost beat Koch and the way John Lindsay did in 69 when he did win reelection. You have to lose in the primary. They had similar challenges when that's without the information age. So perhaps maybe your dad, Dylan Cuomo in today's technology may have pulled it off, but it came close.

[B]

I don't know. Koch was a big deal. His honor, the original his honor Koch was a gold standard in terms of retail politics and being there for the work in Mary and Joe. How onerous is it as a prospect to run without the party's favor in the city or state of New York?

[A]

You know, I don't think endorsements don't win races. People do. And here's how I would handicap this. You only need 400, 500,000 votes to win in the general election. Mayor de Blasio, 240,000 in 2012. Mayor Adams in the primary with 289,000. And then in the general 750,000 two way race to Curtis Levo got about 330. And that was, I represented 67% of the vote.

[B]

Can you believe Curtis Lewa got 300,000 votes?

[A]

Chris I can't believe in a city of almost 9 million people, 900,000 people, you know, all that, that's all that votes. So the, the challenge is how do you, you know, how do you motivate people to vote? Why, how do you, how do you enfranchise them? How do you, you know, speak to ethnic communities? How do you speak to the five boroughs to come out and vote and feel it? They're part of the process. And I think the candidate that does that most effectively is going to win and it'll be outside the norm. I think we're living outside the norm over the last couple of years and I think it's going to continue the trend.

[B]

Curtis Sliwa.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, I have nothing to say on that.

[B]

Curtis Sliwa. I mean, if I ever told you.

[A]

That, look, you got to talk to the Republican leadership. A two party robust system is healthy. It brings us to the center. It brings compromise, it brings a healthy debate. Debating within primary, Senate, like open primaries earlier, is a better way to bring a healthy debate. If that's an individual has ever worked in government, has no executive experience whatsoever, managers running the organization, if that's the best that the Republican party could put forth in 2021, if they do it again, you know, that's an issue that they have to address.

[B]

Curtis Sliwa. I mean that guy is the only thing that connects us to when the city was really a problem, was that he was there with the guardian angels. He's still wearing the hat. You know, that's like the only through line that makes any sense to this reality that he's trying to architect for people that he thinks we're living in Thunderdome, that guy.

[A]

But I think he's living in the 70s as well. The way, the way you described the perception. I think he encourages people to view it. Yeah, that's what gave him his, you know, his necessary existence.

[B]

Yeah, the guardian angel who wants you to see everybody as a devil.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know, look, I am sure when some people, you know, say, oh look, what's, what's he talking about? What's Cuomo talking about with this guy Karon? They're Going to be surprised because, you know, I should be, like, attacking you for being with Adams or whatever it is. But what do you think that, you know, from all your years of being inside now, you're right, it's changed. People are nasty gratuitously now. But in terms of what it's supposed to be about and how you're supposed to be able to talk to people, even if it's the case where your guy is running and my brother, who's my guy is running, and here we are talking.

[A]

Listen, the mayor, the reason that I have so much respect for mayor is because he has courage to speak his mind when he believes it to be correct. And a case in point, and one that highlights the heightened rhetoric, is when President Trump was campaigning and he was speaking to a crowd at Madison Square Garden. And those calling for, you know, in either a fascist or not is, I mean, someone who has a grandfather who fought in the barrel of bulging, many friends who lost relatives in the Holocaust. I'd say you don't just say those terms lightly, particularly when someone is in another political persuasion in you. You can, you can disagree, you could disagree vehemently, but you don't use those kind of terms. It's just, it was completely disrespectful. And they made it said we should tone down the rhetoric and he has the right to be there. I agreed with him and it was the right choice. And I was, I remember liking some of the difficult decisions he's made that he thought was right. Like, we cut, we did what's called pegs, a program to eliminate the gap. We had to cut some of the agencies down by 5%, and we took great heat for that. It was politically, you know, unpopular rallies and City hall stepping Peaches Union and others criticizing it. But you know, what it was right to do. And the city's bond ratings have improved dramatically. And it is that courage that I think is necessary. You know, leader and I, you know, I hope the people of New York see that in man random when the time comes.

[B]

We have a couple of months to go here, but I think that there's something reassuring in the idea that I think that to the extent that Andrew and he don't openly become their worst selves, I think, I think no matter who wins, there's a good message in that because, you know, that the guys don't dislike each other. And what you said about the mayor is right. I lived it. Andrew was taking meetings with you guys when other guys would not meet with him. I don't know who he was asking or who he wasn't. But I know that the mayor was saying yes and saying it in public, at restaurants or whatever. And that is true. And I know Andrew remembers it. And I think that no matter who wins or no matter what they disagree about, if they disagree without being disagreeable and being assholes, I think it's good for the whole process.

[A]

I completely agree. I've set the example that needs to be set. Mature professionals can react. You know, it's two fighters to go in the ring. You could fight it out and go for a drink after. And, you know, I'm certainly a person who lives by that. We'll see how it plays out. But I hope that's exactly the way this ends. And you know what's funny? Just let me just add this to that topic. The mayor believes that he's been completely so, despite all his troubles, fortunate to be able to serve the city. I'm sure the Governor Cuomo feels the same way. There's a chance he's got a governor and he's going to give it his all. Ron, I said to someone recently, I asked, what do you think is going to happen to Mayor Rums? What? He said, nothing. He's going to give it his all. We'll go out to dinner and we'll continue our lives. All you can do is your best, and that's all you can ask for. Authenticity, credibility and your best. And I know both of them are going to do just that.

[B]

What do you think the top three reasons are that people pull a lever in the mayoral primary? Forget about for whom they pull it. What do you think it is?

[A]

I think it's going to be the fact that the mayor has done more for affordable housing than any mayor in history, particularly the city of, yes, 80,000 new units, more affordable housing permits than in history. It's going to be public safety. 70,000 ghost cars off the street, 1300 illegal weed shops closed so those lawfully licensed individuals can make a living. 20,000 illegal guns taken off the streets and small businesses who are now seeing red tape cut. Believe it or not, there's been 50,000 storefront small businesses opened since the end of the pandemic. Tourism record numbers. As I said earlier, restaurants filled the capacity. I mean, trying to get a reservation. You have to call in a favor to get a reservation these days. That's a healthy city. So that message versus the perception, as you're saying, that's out there just has to be told when it is. If they give him credit as they should because it's under his leadership. I certainly believe that the mayor will be seen in a positive light, reelected. Not to mention health care training, dyslexic training, teachers to screen dyslexia. 40% of Rikers island inmates have dyslexia, unscreening and live a life of despair. He's now screening early on brought the World Dyslexia Forum to New York for the first time ever. So there's a lot of good stories the man can articulate when he does. And also he's a great campaigner. He just is an inspirational speaker. He's a hard worker. So I think when you take that work ethic, you have the narrative and you have the body of work behind you and that he's an incumbent. I like his chances.

[B]

I think you're right in circling around what it is. I think it's a safety pull. I think they see it safety just in terms of their lived experience, safety in terms of values and safety in terms of income and tax structure. I will tell you, you know, I'm one of the. I moved out of the city because, you know, you just. I live on Long Island. I mean, I still have a place in the city, but I made my residence out in East Hampton because I wanted to stop getting banged, you know, by the city tax. It's a reality of city life and people reviewing tax burdens right now as a function of what they think they're getting for it. And I think it's a safety election. Do you feel safe on the streets, on the subways? Do you feel safe in your property value? And do you feel safe in terms of your ability to grow your family and get paid here and keep as much of it as you can? Now, those are also tough buckets in politics on a national level.

[A]

Also, you know, when you raise your taxation, it's a great point somewhat. New York is a victim of its own success. I know Mayor Bloomberg is the like to say that. And the more you have people wanting to live here and move in, the more supply shrinks. And as a result, prices are increased. So through programs like the City of Yes, and cutting through that and creating supply, hopefully alleviates that. Plus what the mayor did for the poorest New Yorkers would ask the tax. If you're at 150% below the federal poverty line, the mayor eliminated city tax down to zero. And I don't know that that has really been in the press at all, has been articulated to the public the way it should. But these are little positive steps that sort of leave some of the burden.

[B]

So, Frank, when you're figuring out how to process your life and your experiences, you're not an old guy, and I gotta say that because you're the same age as me, but you have lived enough at this point where there were stories to be told. So you decided to write a book. First of all, how many people in your life said, I love you, but be careful, be careful, be careful.

[A]

When I hear the be careful, it just. I cringe. I've heard so often, you know, all you could do is live your life as best as you can, make the decisions that you think are appropriate, and roll with the punches. That's about it. So, yeah, I hear that quite often.

[B]

So when you decided, yeah, I hear it, I'm going to write the book, why?

[A]

So, you know, it's just. Just a little background. I'm a voracious reader, particularly of history and business books. And I was reading a book once upon a time called Bargaining Brilliance by a fellow named, I think, Louis Schiff. And in the prologue there was a mention of a fellow who he called my mentor, who lives like a recluse in Connecticut, but who grew up in Grin Canarson. So my antenna went up. I said, canarsi, wait a minute. So I send this guy, Russ Prince, an email. Within two minutes, he responds, we have breakfast and we start collaborating. At that same time, I was joining Abram Spencerman in honor of about 2010. And we took a methodology that I had in my personal experience and what Rust is sort of taught as a business writer himself and built through this model of networking and relationship building. And Raven Springsterman grew together with myself and some of these ideas. Then 30 lawyers to ultimately 130 in the largest law firm in the history of Brooklyn. So taking those lessons and I spoke about them often on CLE courses, how to negotiate vis a vis the process of everybody wins, which is essentially creating direct alignment in your goals and the individual that you're negotiating. What they're not looking at a negotiation as a zero sum game. Playing the long game, the mindset up, identifying what it is that you need. If you were a person that was negotiating with listening through empathy. Some people call it tactical empathy. But listen carefully and then finding common ground and then building off that common ground and doing so with credibility and humility so that you play this long game and don't look at every negotiation as I have to win or out talk you. And that's something that we then, you know, found successful. And the feedback we got. We decided to write the second volume and that's what we just did. Now it's available on Amazon as of a couple of days ago. Happy to say. And I think the second version is even better than the first. Why? Well, I think we're clearer on our explanations and it's more user friendly. The process is sort of 1, 2, 3, 4 and learnable. And we learn sometimes as you write, you tend to try to articulate a little bit more than necessary. And when people are reading books like this, I think it's easier to just be very matter of fact and speaking late terms, that's what we did. And also we have a body of work behind us in the first one. We've learned so. And the examples are more real life in the second version as well. So I believe it's a better product.

[B]

Well, I think that there's a how to aspect to this that is very applicable and I think what you did in my understanding of volume two versus volume one is application. Sure. Who doesn't want to succeed in business? Who doesn't want to be like, you know, like the superstars? Sure, it's a great aspiration, it's a great selling point. But I think that you making it to all these different relationships in your life, there are all these different, not negotiations, but they're these different dynamics that the same concepts apply to in terms of how you do with the friends, how you do at work with the colleagues, you know, how you do with the customer base, how do you do with your partner, how you do with your kids. There are a lot of transferable skills that you outlined in the first volume that now can be a more broad palette.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. And we tried to use application and examples. I bring some in from my experience at City hall where some projects were intractable before in different administrations and just lag but good projects, we just couldn't find common ground and taking those processes and applying them to real world and then writing them in the book as hey, you see, this is one example of how this principle worked. I think resonates, will resonate the reader more than just speaking in theory.

[B]

Now there's one aspect of it is understanding how to surrender the me to the we. And I thought that that was interesting when I was doing the for the interview that you recommended to people you were working with at City hall, one of my friend Ryan Holiday's books, Ego is the Enemy, where he is unpacking that particular concept of seeing who you are, but also knowing how to get away from that and see yourself as a part of something bigger. Why did you recommend it and how does it tie into what your philosophy is within your own writing?

[A]

Oh, it's exactly tied in. Ego is the biggest obstacle to advancing so many different projects, both in politics, in business, and in any relationship. And Ryan's book was really helpful to me and actually wrote. I used to do a book of the month club as chief of staff, and I'm not sure it was the second. I think it was the second. The first was Culture Club. I think the second one. The third one was Brian's book. And I wanted to impress upon the City hall team and staff and agencies how important it is to put your and okay. To do. Put your ego aside and focus on the job. And even if it's somebody else's idea, your idea is not the one taken. Put it aside. And we were here to serve the people in the city of New York. And the same thing can be applied to a business. You had to serve your shareholders or your partners or your customers or whatever. And ego, it's such a fragile thing. And I mean, we all have to work as much as we could say it and say, yeah, of course we know that we still, you know, we still succumb to it from time to time. But being mindful of it, I think is a step. Right step in the right direction. And his book was great. It was concise. I loved it, and I recommend it to everybody in City Hall.

[B]

Yeah, he's really rejuvenated in the true sense of the world. One of the oldest philosophies known to man, you know, from the ancient Greek era. And it's interesting because he used ego as the enemy as kind of a modern application. I know all the Freudian people would get upset because ego is really a modulating device and it's not conceit as we use it or self centeredness. But it's one of the cardinal virtues in Stoicism, which is the philosophy that he has rejuvenated and brought back in. They have courage, wisdom, temperance, and justice are the four cardinal virtues, they call them that are supposed to guide your reason, choice. And that goes to temperance, which is to know how to understand your own passions versus others. And when you look at politics, this is a place that is all ego and all enemy all the time. And let's be honest, it's one of the reasons that Trump was able to come back in the way that he was is that all the rules went out the window and he became about Just a straight play of aggression, of populism that wound up overwhelming everything else.

[A]

Yeah, I guess if you highlighted politics, I'd have to concur with you. But what I was doing as chief of staff was sort of administering as an executive and moving things forward. Not necessarily running for pre election, but one of the other books that Ryan Holiday wrote, Optimal is the Way Stoicism. I think he was quoting Marcus Aurelius. I use that principle in the book as well when I talk about long term relationship. Not to be disappointed if something not necessarily goes the way you expect initially because there may be a better path. And if you play the long game with credibility, authenticity, and through tactical empathy, most certainly you'll have success, maybe in a way you don't envision. And I love that on the book by Ryan Holiday as well. And I've used that as well, my leadership in City hall and also in some of the thinking you corrected in the book.

[B]

Well, I appreciate you. I wish you good luck with the second volume. And I love the idea of everybody wins. I think it is an idea whose time is very, very much in the present because this zero sum, you know, your worst you gotta lose is killing us. And people who get to see it a different way are not only gonna be healthier, but they're gonna be happier. I wish you good luck with the book. I wish you good luck with everything going forward. And I appreciate you giving me your perspective.

[A]

Thank you, Chris, for having me and pleasure to be here. And you know, I really enjoyed it how many times. Yes.

[B]

Frank Caron wrote the right book. I hope for him it's at the right time. Can everybody win when it comes to politics? I don't know. Only one gets to be mayor of New York City. We'll see what happens in those politics in this city and also to the entire national environment because let's face it, we're all in it together. I'm Chris Cuomo. Thank you for subscribing and following. Appreciate you being with me here and at NewsNation 8p and 11p every weekday night.