Brian Tyler Cohen Explains What Democrats Must Do Next

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Chris Cuomo Project — Brian Tyler Cohen Explains What Democrats Must Do Next

Episode Date: July 16, 2026
Host: Chris Cuomo
Guest: Brian Tyler Cohen, political commentator and author of "The Day After"

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Overview

This episode features a lively, candid conversation between Chris Cuomo and Brian Tyler Cohen exploring what Democrats must do if/when they regain political power. Cohen argues that now is the critical time for Democrats to decide how to wield power purposefully, avoid their historical pitfalls, and deliver real results—rather than getting bogged down in protecting institutions for their own sake. The duo debates Democratic and Republican approaches to power, the pitfalls of the filibuster, the emergence of populism, and the impact of party 'fringes'—all against the backdrop of rising public anger, disillusionment, and a highly unpredictable political landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Core Challenge for Democrats: Using Power, Not Squandering It

[00:00–07:30]

• Cuomo sets the tone by emphasizing disruption in politics, stating that Democrats could become the “disruptors” the country is hungering for if they use power intelligently—without losing their way.
• Cohen introduces his book, “The Day After,” explaining it was written to jumpstart the conversation about how Democrats should use power, rather than falling into their customary cautious, incremental approach.
• Quote (BTC, 05:49):
  “If and when we get into power, we don’t waste that precious sliver of time doing what Democrats always do, which is... basically tantamount to writing strongly worded letters, and instead focus on getting shit done.”

2. Institutions vs. Delivering for the People

[07:30–10:13]

• Cohen argues Democrats are “too precious” about defending traditional government institutions (like the filibuster) at the expense of producing tangible benefits for constituents.
• Example: Failure to abolish the filibuster blocked voting rights reform, contributing to the ongoing erosion of Black representation in southern states.
• Quote (BTC, 07:38):
  “Something happens when you get to D.C.—some type of D.C. brain rot—where you think your job becomes to defend the institutions of government as opposed to ensuring that the government can actually deliver for people.”

3. The Filibuster Debate

[10:13–17:54]

• Cuomo, an institutionalist, warns that abandoning super-majority requirements (like the filibuster) could let majority “frenzies” run roughshod over minorities and lead to policy whiplash.
• Cohen contends that the filibuster is already selectively gone—Republicans eliminated it for judges and tax cuts but preserve it when it blocks progressive policies.
• Quote (BTC, 12:59):
  “Everything is broken. So we can make the conscious decision to sit here and do nothing, or do whatever we have to do to get something else done.”
• Exchange (15:18–15:54):
  Cuomo: “You changed the filibuster on judges, not them. … The Republicans said, ‘Don’t do it.’”
  Cohen: “I understand that. … The reality is, they recognize that Democrats will disproportionately benefit from being able to have no barrier to passing progressive legislation.”

4. Consequences of Majoritarian Rule and Political Gravity

[17:54–24:42]

• Cuomo is skeptical, worrying that without the filibuster, laws will just be reversed each time power shifts, leading to instability (“whimsy mode”).
• Cohen replies that “political gravity” exists; unpopular policies will not survive, as seen with the ACA (Obamacare): despite backlash and numerous repeal attempts, its popularity saved it from being destroyed.
• Both agree public fear and negative campaigning often win elections, even against popular policy proposals.
• Quote (BTC, 27:17):
  “If we have a government where somebody does something popular and the opposition to something popular doesn’t win... isn’t that how government should be?”

5. Party Populism, Labels, and the Ascendancy of ‘Fighters’

[28:44–36:41]

• Cohen and Cuomo discuss the rise of more aggressive, anti-establishment figures (on both the left and right).
• AOC and Zoran Mamdani top Democratic popularity polls, reflecting a party base hungry for “fighters,” not just technocratic competence.
• Cuomo identifies a paradox: the most competent or experienced leaders are less appealing in the current climate than those who embody “animus towards the status quo.”
• Quote (Cuomo, 33:22):
  “Is showing that you want to fight and that you reject [the system] more important than the actual remedies? ... I think you’re right.”

6. Dangers of the Fringe Devouring the Party

[39:25–41:27]

• Cuomo warns that, as with MAGA and the GOP, Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) could “devour” the Democratic Party; the DSA label is a political liability in moderate/swing districts.
• Cohen pushes back, arguing that Democratic “extremes” still only want things like universal healthcare; the Republican right’s policies are actively exclusionary or anti-democratic.
• Quote (BTC, 40:31):
  “The difference between the extremes on the right and the left is ... the extreme on the left is looking to get universal health care.”

7. Popularity, Messaging, and Party Leadership

[44:03–53:56]

• Debate over whether “socialist” and DSA-aligned Dems are a liability:
  • Cohen: Their popularity in the party base shows hunger for boldness, and “socialism” has been rendered meaningless by right-wing overuse.
  • Cuomo: “When you’re explaining, you’re losing.” Labels still work against Democrats in some parts of America.
• Discussion about the need for young, dynamic leadership and the inability of current Democratic standard-bearers (like Schumer or Jeffries) to inspire/embody this new spirit.
• Notable: Both praise James Talarico as a generational talent, with qualities needed for new Democratic leaders.

8. Islamophobia and Identity Politics in the Midterms

[53:56–56:00]

• Cuomo raises the specter of right-wing Islamophobia as a liability for Democrats with Muslim candidates.
• Cohen says ethnic and religious attacks are nothing new, and candidates’ platforms remain focused on bread-and-butter issues like healthcare and affordability.

9. Trust in Institutions Versus Democracy at Risk

[56:00–59:53]

• Cohen's biggest fear: Trump successfully undermining election integrity, especially by manufacturing “pretext” for drastic anti-democratic measures.
• Optimism for the judiciary: Both note courts have so far held the line better than Congress or the executive against Trump’s overreach.
• Quote (BTC, 56:04):
  “Biggest fear is that Trump is successful in his efforts to undermine the midterm elections or subsequent elections.”

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Timestamps: Memorable & Notable Segments

• [05:49]—BTC introduces "The Day After" and the urgency of pre-planning for power.
• [07:38]—BTC: “You are not there to defend the filibuster. You are there to deliver for your constituents.”
• [12:59]—BTC: “Everything is broken...”
• [17:54]—Cuomo: The danger of removing all guardrails—"whimsy mode."
• [27:17]—Cohen: On positive government: “Isn’t it great if we have a government where somebody does something popular and the opposition... doesn’t win?”
• [33:22]—Cuomo: “Is showing that you want to fight... more important than the actual remedies?”
• [40:31]—BTC: "The difference between the extremes on the right and left..."
• [44:03]—BTC: "I'm a capitalist... DSA candidates are not looking to tear down the structure but put up guardrails..."
• [56:04]—BTC: Lays out fear of Trump subverting elections via manufactured crisis.

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Notable Quotes

• Chris Cuomo [00:00]:
  “Hey, man, you got to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Why? ... Certain things are just too much about right and wrong to be polite. … But those are the few, not the many.”
• Brian Tyler Cohen [05:49]:
  “If and when we get into power, we don’t waste that precious sliver of time doing what Democrats always do, which is... basically tantamount to writing strongly worded letters, and instead focus on getting shit done.”
• BTC [07:38]:
  “You are not there to defend the filibuster. You are there to deliver for your constituents.”
• Chris Cuomo [33:22]:
  “Is showing that you want to fight and that you reject [the system] more important than the actual remedies? … I think you’re right.”
• BTC [40:31]:
  "The extreme on the left is looking to get universal health care... so it's much harder to vilify..."
• BTC [56:04]:
  “Biggest fear is that Trump is successful in his efforts to undermine the midterm elections or subsequent elections.”

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Conclusion

The episode is a dynamic, often passionate, and refreshingly frank negotiation between two political observers committed to substance over slogans. Cohen’s thesis—Democrats must shed their caution and institution-worship, wield power decisively, and focus on delivering for ordinary Americans—is underscored by sharp debate about the real dangers of power, the toxicity of party labels and fringe politics, and the ever-present threat of democratic backsliding.

If Democrats want to seize their “moment,” Cohen concludes, they need to be bold, clear, and unafraid—not just in opposition, but in governance. The discussion lays bare the complexity and stakes for America's center-left in an era of volatility.

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Transcript

[Chris Cuomo]

You want to know what's going to win in the midterms. You want to know, even more importantly, what. What's more important than that? What to do once you do win. How to avoid the pitfalls that have dogged you in the past. That is the truly vexing question. And I have somebody who I think has a really complete answer, who has studied the past, knows what befalls those who come in as disruptors and what to do about it. And his name is Brian Tyler Cohen, and he's got a new book out, okay. Called the Day after that is well researched and well reasoned. Now, do I agree with everything that goes into it? Nope. And that's why you're here. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Hey, man, you got to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. Why? Look, look, certain things are just too much about right and wrong to be polite. I'm with you on that, but those are the few, not the many. All right, you want to talk about whether or not it's okay that ICE kills someone because they were here illegally, you're not getting politeness out of me on that. Okay? If you want to talk about how the law is and what it is and when it's right and when it's wrong, even if it doesn't look good, even if it's ugly, then you're in the right place. If you want to talk about whether, well, you got to stick with MAGA because the left is just a bunch of communists. You got the wrong guy. Now, I'm not going to get angry at you because that's just ignorance. That's not hate. But I don't agree with that. But I do agree that the Democrats have problems that I wish they didn't have because I believe the country needs disruption. I think it needs different than what is happening right now. And unfortunately for me, as an anti partisan, all we have is the other party. All we have is the Democrats. So as long as they're right about what's wrong, that's like the minimum standard. I'm not happy about it, but it is where we are. So I do think that in a moment, that is all about an appetite for disruption. And the Democrats are perfectly positioned to be the disruptors. Right, because they're not in power and they seem to understand what is wrong, which is on my chest. Okay? You got to be obsessed with fixing America first. We got lots of things that need to be addressed. And I think it was a little bit of a gotcha question. That somebody asked me, you don't think America is progressing? That's a trick question. Because if you don't say yes, then it's like you hate America, which is stupid. But I also do believe that, yeah, overall, America is moving in the right direction. But right now I think that, I think it's. It bends this way. You know, Martin Luther King's famous quote, bends towards justice, but the arc is long. Right, but it does bend towards justice. I believe that it's kind of like, right, but we're, we're moving up. But it's very incremental right now because a lot of things are bad and need to be better. So maybe bad is the wrong word, but I think some of it is bad. And maybe it's worse in other places, but it needs to be better here. However you look at it, the day after is going to come. And when it does, the book is aptly titled because Brian Tyler Cohen is going to discuss and defend what comes, why it comes, and why the Democrats should be there and what they should do with that power. And there's some very controversial things in this discussion. The filibuster, socialism, who's good, who's evil. So let's get after it. Btc, I'm so happy to see you. I'm so proud of you for putting out the book. It's such a smart thing for Democrats, for the left, for critical thinkers to think about how do you use power if you get into power in the age of Trump? And I think it's really interesting, and I wanted to let people in on the private conversation we were having. We were talking about media and Brian was saying, boy, one of your guests last night, what a scooch. Boy, is he annoying. I don't know how you do it. And I've learned something in part from watching you and others, which is I've never had the freedom that you have, and so I never had any expectation of it. You know, my life has always been, for 20 something years, you do what they tell you to do. And I'm not saying bias, I'm not saying lie, I'm not saying anything like that. But you gotta make sure that they're okay with what you're doing, otherwise you got a problem. And now I have a taste of what you have, and it makes it very hard to work for somebody because I feel the same way you do about who's annoying. But I am not the master of my ship. I have a captain who is saying, yeah, but I like him, but I like her, that's my life. So not only do I have to deal with some fucking jackass who's like, using all these gotchas and specious premises and everything else, you don't have to deal with that now. There are risks in independent media. Guardrails can be a good thing, having accountability, having someone who says, whoa, Brian, you can't say it's rape, it was sexual assault. It's different and dead. And that can be a good thing. And I think there are too many people on the independent side who are just about clicks way more than anyone in what you guys call mainstream media. But you're not one of them. So why did you believe this book had to come out right now?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I appreciate you asking. So the book is called the Day how to Wield Power in a Post Trump World. I think it's important to have this debate now because there will come a point and I truly believe that Democrats will get into power that will run the House, the Senate, the White House. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't do the work that I do. If I didn't have hope that there would be a better future, I would. You know, look, I would, I'd move to, to Thailand and just start hanging out with elephants. I'd open up an elephant sanctuary. But I do believe that there is a world where Democrats take control again. And I would rather have this debate now so that if and when we get into power, we don't waste that precious sliver of time doing what Democrats always do, which is saying, okay, we've got all this power, let's empanel a commission, let's see what their findings are, and then six to 12 months later, we'll start to put those into effect by doing this now, by having this debate now, by normalizing this idea of wielding power, and most importantly, letting Democratic officials know that there is a appetite, a massive appetite for them to wield power. Now, we can use the time that we're actually in power to do something about it, to deliver on climate change, to deliver on healthcare, to deliver on voting rights reforms, to deliver on a more just economy. But. But I think it's all about timing. And when we're in those positions where we have full control of government, as we saw from the Biden administration, they come and go really quickly. And so I would rather not squander that time doing what Democrats always do, which is basically tantamount to writing strongly worded letters, and instead focus on getting shit done.

[Chris Cuomo]

Give me more. What do you think happens that doesn't happen with Republicans. What do you think has to happen differently?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I mean, Trump has shown that our institutions are not sacrosanct. I mean, he has barreled through everything to get what he wants.

[Chris Cuomo]

He's barreled through isn't that bad.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yes, but my argument is that you don't do it for self enrichment. You don't do it for vanity projects. You don't do it to consolidate power for yourself. You do it to deliver for people. You know, the example that I often point to is like, look how close we were to voting rights reform. But Democrats thought it was more important to adhere to protecting the filibuster than actually getting that legislation passed. And I think that something happens when you get to D.C. some, some type of D.C. brain rot where you think that your job becomes to defend the institutions of government as opposed to ensuring that the government can actually deliver for people. You are not there to defend the filibuster. You are there to deliver for your constituents. And because we weren't able to pass voting rights reform, now we're in a world where they don't have it. We're in a world where we're watching black opportunity districts disappear throughout the entire South. I wouldn't be surprised if by 2030 there are no opportunity districts in Republican run states and that black representation has been completely eliminated. We defer to these institutions at the same time that Republicans show a blatant disregard for them. And so that asymmetry just creates a playing field that we're never gonna win on. And so I hear what you're saying. It's not in the. Look, you know as well as anybody, it is not in the Democrats DNA to consolidate power so that they can enrich themselves and build monuments to themselves. It's just not in their DNA. Democrats are way too precious about government. Precious to a fault about government. These are die hard institutionalists at their core. So I think that we have to be less precious about these institutions, way more precious about delivering for people. Because frankly, Chris, like you also know this just as well as anybody else does, which is we have a very disillusioned population. They became disillusioned with the Democrats, which led to a massive victory for Republicans. And now because Republicans refuse to deliver on their promises, because they've watched costs rise, healthcare get gutted, new wars in the Middle east start, the Epstein files continue to get suppressed. Now people are disillusioned with that party. So I think we're gonna have one more bite at the apple. But from an Electorate that's already at their wit's end to gain power and show that we can do something with that power, but then we have to actually do something with that power.

[Chris Cuomo]

Okay, this is a great conversation. Good. Now, I'm wearing this because this is what wins in the midterms and for good reason. And you should be wearing this, and this is what you guys should be about. I am not about your party. I do think you are nowhere near the level of downside that MAGA is. MAGA is the most toxic populist movement that has devoured a party that I've ever seen. Trump is a huge part of that, but he's not the only part of it. So is there opportunity? Does the country want different? Are they sick of the fringe? Are they sick of magnified minorities? Are they suspicious of the algorithm? Yes, yes, yes. Everything's going in your direction, the direction of change. They're in power. That's the best thing you got going for you. You are now the disruptors. There's so many levels of nuance here that you guys have to negotiate in order to get to where you want to be. The biggest one is what you're outlining in the book, how to Use Power, which is so smart. And that's why I'm happy to hock the book for you, because I actually think it's a good critical thinker literacy guide. You should read it. You don't have to agree with everything that Brian puts out, obviously, but it'll make you think about the right questions. The answers come, and they're a function of preference. I am anti party, but that is a luxury, right? I am anti party because I know what Washington and Jefferson and Hamilton and Madison and Monroe and Teddy Rose, all of them said, which is, the parties will kill us. They are killing us. But we are where we are, and the rules are what they are, and they're not gonna change. I call for a Constitutional Convention. I'm like a poor man's Thomas Paine, you know, I'm trying to change the framework. This is a luxury. This is an academic conversation. I get it now. The filibuster, I believe, is a great fulcrum for this conversation. If the institutions are not protected, respected, and used instead of abused, everything will break. The filibuster is frustrating as hell. You would have had a lot of change that you don't have now. So would Trump. And I think more than ever, we can't rule off a simple majority. We're too crazy. Brian, we need 60 votes for the Next Supreme Court justice, and now it's over. It's just a simple majority, and that is killing us. You guys started it with Harry Reid and now you're paying for it with this Supreme Court. Are you sure you want to get rid of it?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

You said everything will break. My contention here, my retort to that is everything is broken. And so we can make the conscious decision to sit here and do nothing, or we can do whatever we have to do to get something else done. Like, there is no world in which people always say, um, aren't you worried that if you do this, Republicans will abuse it? Republicans are already abusing it. So are we going to not act for fear of Republicans doing something that they're doing right now? I mean, we are watching Donald Trump barrel through all of these institutions. We're, we're watching the Republican Party not lift a finger as he shatters the emoluments clause. I mean, this guy, you could make the argument good faith that Donald Trump is not even acting in the best interest of this country because he's acting to consolidate more wealth for himself. We know that the uae, that Qatar, are pouring money into World Liberty Financial. We know that Donald Trump is opening or inking real estate deals in foreign countries. And our foreign policy because of his son in law and Don Jr. And Eric. And so, and so our foreign policy, taxpayer funded foreign policy, is being dictated by, by what's going to be to the best benefit of this family.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

And so again, I think that I get everything you're saying. And look, I also am not somebody who wants to tear government down. I want government to work, but I want it to work like government can't just work so that we can watch different processes and norms and traditions block any progress. That's what government is about.

[Chris Cuomo]

Why do you think the Republicans are holding off on getting rid of the filibuster? This is the most extreme, the most craven faction I've ever seen running the government.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

They're not holding off on eliminating the filibuster. They've eliminated the filibuster for their priorities. They've eliminated the filibuster for confirming judges. They've eliminated the filibuster for passing tax cuts, which they do often. And they do it to the disproportionate benefit of millionaires and billionaires. So the filibuster is gone for Republican priorities. The filibuster exists for progress. The filibuster exists for climate change legislation, for the Freedom to Vote, act for the vote.

[Chris Cuomo]

You changed the filibuster on judges, not them. Right. You know you did it.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah. I mean, Harry Reid did it.

[Chris Cuomo]

You seem to ignore that. Makes me want to grab that luxurious head of hair and say, don't you play those games with me.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

It was a little bit before my time, I will. I will admit, but the reality is,

[Chris Cuomo]

now you're playing that I'm an old man. Now. You're playing this card. You're playing the gray hair. You know history, you're smart, and you do your homework before you're tired.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I can't take ownership, Chris. Over. Over what Harry Reid did. That was. I was. I was. I was. I was blacking out.

[Chris Cuomo]

But I'm just saying that's why it happened. The Republicans said, don't do it.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I understand that.

[Chris Cuomo]

And he wanted to get around the recess appointments, and then they did it for the Supreme Court. If it goes. It's gotta mean something to you, btc, that this. They don't want to lose it all together, even if they know it means

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

that they recognize that Democrats will disproportionately benefit from being able to have no barrier to passing progressive legislation. I mean, what else do Republicans want to. They want to pass the Save America Act. I understand that they want to do that. First of all, they're not. There's not enough support for them to do that. But second of all, they know the risks of eliminating the filibuster, because then

[Chris Cuomo]

they don't want to pass a Muslim ban. They might pass some crazy corporate deregulations,

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

but you have to remember political gravity exists, too. So they can pass bills saying that everybody has to pay Donald Trump a dollar when they say his name. That's all well and good. It might pass muster, but voters get a say in this stuff, too. You can pass a Muslim ban. Voters get a say in this stuff. You can pass a blatant voter suppression bill. Voters get a say in this. Now, of course, with the voter suppression bill, that may. That may have ramifications on their ability to have a say on this. So that's a little bit of an outlier. But remember, unpopular policy will not. Will not redound to their political benefit. And they've got midterms coming up. They, you know, their voters go to the ballot box just as much as Democratic voters do. So, yes, they can do that. And they can, you know, think about this like, these people don't have good policy instincts, and they don't have good policy positions. So, sure, they would be. They would be unmoored in terms of. In terms of what they're able to do. But them passing legislation that mandates, that mandates, you know, only fossil fuels used in energy is not going to be popular. Them passing legislation that says, you know, only white Christian men can vote is not going to be popular. I mean, they can go all the way to the United States.

[Chris Cuomo]

Then why would you create a mechanism that allows the frenzy of the moment to dictate, even when it goes against the common, the collective conscience? I mean, and it depends on the issue, Brian, you know, yes, there's a whole story of how fraught the Democratic situation was in the last election. And I definitely believe you guys lost it. He didn't win it. He had no business winning, let alone getting the most votes in the modern era. That was on the Democrats. And you should learn that lesson. I don't know that you have immigration, okay, you're on the wrong side of that issue in terms of the American people, by a lot. Okay. Overall taxation, now, it's shifting, but you've been on the wrong side. Culture issues, you've been on the wrong side. You're a bunch of canceling. You don't believe in live and let live. You know, it's, it's a, it's, You've been wrong on things. So where the country is, is not always where you are, especially now. You know, I don't buy in that the DSA is going to change us from capitalism. I have a terrible argument because they keep saying they want to change it. And so every time I say, look, yeah, you're not going to get me with that boogeyman, people are more worried about the reality than what the remedy is. And then people say, cuomo. It's right here. It's right here. Get rid of capital. I know, I know it is. It's so stupid. I wish they would stop saying that. But you guys weren't always on the right side.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

You know, let me, let me, let me propose something to you. Let's say the Democrats are able to pass one of their signature pieces of legislation, legislation that was so important, they presented it to the House of Representatives first. HR1, the freedom to Vote Act. One of the provisions in the Freedom to Vote act was a provision banning partisan gerrymandering nationwide. When you have districts, when you have districts where they're not R +70 and D +80, what happens to Congress and in turn, what happens to the willingness of those members of Congress to pass the most extreme legislation? Yes, this would fix the principal issue that you're complaining about, which is, okay, now you've got a political party in power with only a simple majority threshold that they have to pass to change legislation. But if you have people there that didn't have to pander to the farthest fringes of both parties, then you can pass legislation that's gonna help people.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah. So I have a better provision for your HR1, by the way, because I don't think you guys would pass no gerrymandering. I think that you like it too. And you like it too. And this is about people in power and retaining power. Now, what you could do, and I think it's constitutional because, by the way, your rule may not be constitutional. My rule may not be constitutional either. I like your rule, by the way. I'm just not sure it would pass muster. Depends on the court. Takes us to another problem. But I'll tell you what you should do. There should be a rule that political parties cannot control primaries. Now, the Supreme Court has ruled on this and they have said, yeah, they can. They get to determine who's in their club just like any other club. Ah, yes, but there is no country club running my democracy. And that's what makes this different. And it wasn't argued in that case. What was argued in the case was Brian doesn't get to tell Chris who's allowed to be in his club. Chris gets to say who gets to be in his club. Okay, we agree on that. Okay.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's not the issue. Congress should pass a law. Democrats should push that. The primaries cannot be closed. They have to be open. Or you do a top two, top four. Some type of ranked choice has to be involved. If you do that, I think that the American people win. I also think your party wins, by the way. But let's say it doesn't. Let's say it's neutral. That would be a huge fix for the problem we have right now. Which is what? One third of the population has over 50% of the representation. And I think that other than changing the Senate, which we can't do, you're not going to change the Electoral College. Need a constitutional amendment.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Unless you need the national popular vote. The National Popular vote interstate compact. That could. That could be a way to circumvent the Electoral college.

[Chris Cuomo]

Right, but then the states have to do it. You know what I mean? Then you're asking for states. You know, the com. The compact is a nice way of saying herding cats.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chris Cuomo]

And states could pull out of it. See, that's the one problem with getting rid of the filibuster. So you pass HR1 and it's got both of these things in it, and it passes by a very slim majority. But now it's the law of the land. And then you lose in the midterms, they come in and they reverse it. That's the problem of no filibuster is that you are really now in whimsy mode on a regular basis. And I fear the proposals will get more and more extreme because you have more and more of a limited window to get things done.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Well, I mean, you know, look, what was the most unpopular bill of the 2010s? It was the ACA when Obama passed, led to a massive exodus of Democrats in the House and cost Obama his presidency. Republicans have tried to repeal it 77 times and they've failed every time.

[Chris Cuomo]

So never tried to improve it though. Never tried to improve it. Never tried to do a single damn thing to make it any better. And that's the space for you that people now recognize.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Perhaps. But, but I mean, the, the risk with attacking legislation that is otherwise popular is that then you own taking it away. And even these people, look, even the biggest partisans in the House and the Senate want to be elected the next term. And I remember their efforts to destroy the ACA being a death knell for a lot of these Republicans. There was one in New Jersey. It's been a long time. It's been 15 years. But was his name McCarthy? I can't remember his name exactly. The bald guy. I think he actually was in charge of one of the repeal and replace provisions. But in any case, he, you know, a lot of these people lost their jobs. So, sure, you can, you can immediately come into power and try and rescind what the other party just passed. But if what the other party just passed is popular again, I'm going to go back to my initial thesis, which is political gravity exists for these people.

[Chris Cuomo]

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[Chris Cuomo]

Your own premise is a little specious because if it's popular, then you're probably not going to get into power on the promise to oppose it, Right? Right now, opposition gets you power. Vote for me. I'll stop Brian from wanting to chop off all our son's pee pees. Put me in and I'll stop him. I will get elected in a lot of places on that opposition. I'm not gonna do anything except stop him. So I don't know that you win on the promise of undoing something that's really popular. So.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

And isn't that great? Isn't it great if we have a government where somebody does something popular and the opposition to something popular doesn't win? I mean, that's how government should be. If I'm running on giving people health care and being the only, eliminating our status as the only industrialized country where people don't have health care and people are fed up of health care and they're fed up of co pays, they're fed up of deductibles, they're fed up of every nickel and dime in network out of network, fed up with all of it and they're ready for universal health care in this country and we pass it and people love it and you're running against it and people are saying, this is something we love and you don't get elected because you're running in opposition to something that we love because that's the beauty of democracy. I mean, shouldn't that be how it is?

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, I mean, it's like that right now. You know, I mean, I would run on doing things. It just doesn't work as well. Right. If I say I'm going to fix America first, I have this whole list of ideas. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to fix what's wrong with health care. I'm going to have Mark Cuban come in and run a complete overhaul. It's going to be great. And I'm going to deal with affordability in the following three ways. And you're like, well, what I'm going to do is stop Cuomo from trying to make this country a Nazi era fascist, you know, or whatever. And by the way, that works better. You know, people be like, well, I'm afraid now you made me afraid. I'm afraid I'm going to vote out of fear because I vote out of self protection.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah, but it might. Look, if you're doing stuff that's popular, that stuff isn't going to resonate. The reason, and this goes back to my central argument, the reason that political parties change so frequently and the reason that Trump was able to win in 2024 is in large part due to the ineffectiveness of a party that will more often adhere or defer to norms than about getting something done. And so my contention here is that if Democrats are in power and are unbridled by or, you know, not prevented from doing anything by virtue of a lot of these institutions and they're able to deliver popular legislation, legislation on the 80, on the 80 side of these 80, 20 issues, then Republicans can sure certainly try to do the, you know, fear mongering campaigns, the boogeyman campaigns, but it's not gonna work if people are, if people are supportive of their representatives and what those people are doing.

[Chris Cuomo]

So do you think but for the filibuster, Democrats would have been winning?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I think the filibuster is one thing. I'm not going to blame the filibuster on everything, but I think it's one, I think it's representative of a lot of the hurdles that we allow to prevent us from doing what it is that we're doing.

[Chris Cuomo]

I mean, look at it in the midterms. Look at where we are in the state of play right now. Let's just bandy it about for a second, okay? And even though, again, I believe in this, okay. I believe in Fixing America First. I'm not a nativist. I am not anti foreign involvement. I would both. But I'm saying.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that. So let's talk about.

[Chris Cuomo]

So if we want to do Fix America first, here's the case against you guys. You defend it, okay? You want to destroy the system. You don't believe in capitalism anymore. You want, you hate the rich so much that you want to take away everybody's shit and give it to some collective. So we're no longer a meritocracy. No thanks.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

That I reject the premise of, of this hypothetical. I mean that is, that is the position. That is the most extreme position of a fringe faction of the party. I mean what you're basically. I don't know the difference whether it's like communism or socialism, but I don't. You know, look, I, I advocate for a just fact, a taxation system. I do think that the rich should pay their fair share. You know, the, the irony of the Make America Great Again movement of the MAGA movement is that it harkens back to a time when the, when the top marginal tax rate was between 70 and 90%. So you want to have the prosperity without any of the means to actually get that prosperity. I'm not looking to take everybody's money and everybody's possessions. I think that we need a more just taxation system where the wealthy in this country are not paying effective tax rates of 5% while low wage workers are paying double or triple that amount or regular, you know, middle class Americans are paying six or seven times.

[Chris Cuomo]

Understood.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

That's what I'm advocating for.

[Chris Cuomo]

Understood and good. But you are Paul Ryan. You are a reasonable one. But you are getting your ass.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

You're going to get, you're going to get me. You're going to get me killed. You call me Paul Ryan on here, man. This is

[Chris Cuomo]

another very good looking guy. Because here's the analogy, okay? Paul Ryan was a reasonable Republican. He was a conservative. You knew what he was. There was very little crazy to it. You could disagree with all of it, but it wasn't irrational. But you now who polls top two out of three of Democrat preference for president? AOC and a man who is not eligible to be president, Zoran Mamdani. So that's who your party wants, not you. That's my fear is that we are elected. Now. This isn't my fear, but hypothetically, that's who you're up against. You're up against your own, Brian. And they are kicking Your Heiney.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I think that the reason that those people are successful is because they're doing something a lot simpler and in large part similar to exactly what I'm advocating for, which is getting stuff done and not letting anything stand in their way. You know, the first thing that Jaron did was fill like 175,000 potholes. That's something that people can see and it's getting something done. And, And AOC is not going to shy away from. From fights or stances that she. That she doesn't believe in or. Or hot button issues. She leans in because she believes in this stuff and she's willing to fight for it. That's in large part lending itself to the thesis of what I'm arguing here, which is that you're so.

[Chris Cuomo]

Is showing that you want to fight and that you reject more important than the actual remedies? I think you're suggesting the answer is yes. And I think you're right. Right now within the Democratic Party or the need for disruption. I think, because it didn't make sense to me just for like a minute, not, not you, this dynamic. I was like, how is Mamdani more of a fighter than Andrew Cuomo? How is AOC more impressive than Nancy Pelosi? Because in my mind I was thinking about competency and record. But what I was missing is that's not what they're valuing. What they're valuing is aggression. What they're valuing is animus towards the status quo. And you, Cuomo, you, Pelosi, you, whoever, you're part of the establishment. You're part of what has made it this way. So fuck you. I am against everything. Yeah, I like that better. That's what's winning in your party right now. And I understand why. Worked for MAGA also. And you now have more people.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah. It's not just winning in like, fuck. The establishment is not just winning on the left. It is winning in the center and on the right. And the reality is, you know, you can laugh. You can cast off this idea of saying fuck the establishment as like. As like a, A shallow movement. But most. But. But we do that from a position of privilege. Like most of this country can't afford a $400 emergency. And when you have politicians come in on the left and say, we're going to fix it and nothing fucking happens, and. And then you have politicians on the right come in and say we're gonna fix it, and all of those problems get exacerbated, I'm not surprised that people are disillusioned with the system, and that the prevailing narrative becomes, fuck the system, fuck anybody who seeks to entrench it, fuck the status quo. I'm going to do whatever I can, partisan affiliation be damned, to get something to change here. And I think that that's what we have to recognize. I mean, we ignore that at our own peril.

[Chris Cuomo]

I agree. It's just. And I think you're 100% right about all of it. But how is it manifested in your party right now? I mean, to me, this is like the paradox that everything you just said is right. The Democrats are perfectly positioned to just sweep in the midterms by history and by relevant dynamic. This should happen because this is the biggest thing and Trump has absolutely made it worse. And they can say, well, only short term because of the war. Nobody asked for the war. You forced the war. It's still on you. The buck stops with him. You're perfectly positioned until the package that it comes in is the dsa. And even though I can explain it away, when you're explaining you're losing and you're giving them something to escape their fate. Are you worried about that?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

No, I'm. I'm actually not. I. I am. I am so disinterested in labels. I don't care if someone is dsa. I don't care if somebody.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, it's because it works against you. If you were. If they called themselves the neo Nationalist party, you'd say, neo nationalist. Are you crazy? That's the equivalent for Americans.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

The reality is, I mean, does being a MAGA Republican have any adverse impact on, you know, that branding have any impact on these ability to get elected? Does it have any ability?

[Chris Cuomo]

It will in the midterms. It will in the midterms, sure.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

But any different than, Than a Republican? If somebody who just calls themselves a Republican versus a MAGA Republican?

[Chris Cuomo]

I would argue yes. I think now you go to swing districts and say, I'm full on maga. I think it hurts you in a way that's saying, look, I'm a Republican, I've always been a Republican. I think that you're better off that way. And I think the same thing on the left. Not because it makes as much sense as it does because I think MAGA is an inherently toxic thing. The DSA doesn't have to be inherently toxic, but that word as a buzzword is.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I think what's interesting about this is you and I had a conversation two years ago, ironically enough, when my first book came out and we were talking about the word socialism. And my argument to you was, because you said, oh, is socialism a scary word? Is socialism you know, enough to kind of. To kind of condemn the left? And my argument was Republicans have been calling Democrats socialists forever for my entire life. They have been calling Republican socialists Democrats socialists since Clinton years. And we were. And we were not a socialist country. They called Democrats socialists during the Obama years. We were not a socialist country called Democrats socialists during the Biden years. Not a socialist country. Now they have, they. They have so squeezed the life out of what this word actually means to the point where it doesn't even mean anything. And so they can, you know, continue to say it, but at this point, it just sounds like a buzzword. And frankly, it's.

[Chris Cuomo]

But now you're proving them right because you're calling yourself socialists and you're putting out these agendas that you know won't get. Not you, but that they know won't get done. I don't even understand why they're saying it except for what you were just making. Another point of which is so true, which is they're angry. They're outraged. Desperate times call for desperate measures. And if you want to go all in on destroying the status quo, this is how you do it. You change everything. So I get it. But it worries me that it balances the scales in a way that it wouldn't be otherwise. In terms of winning districts where they're not full. Full left.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Well, look, I think that DSA candidates can and will run and win in districts where it's appropriate for them to run and win. They're not going to win in, you know, the Deep South. It is what it is. I mean, people are going to be reflective of the districts that, that they run in.

[Chris Cuomo]

I don't think you own your party. You own your party. See, that's one of the rules, is why One of the reasons I hate the party is that you'll say, yeah, but I don't believe in that stuff. I'm not that guy. Chris and I disagree on this. We're in the same party. We're a Big Ten. I don't believe in the Big Ten. Something is going to dominate. Maga ate the GOP. Nobody even says GOP anymore. I don't know how many people who are 20 years old even know what it stands for. Right.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chris Cuomo]

And not because they're dumb, but because it's not part of our parlance.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Right.

[Chris Cuomo]

The concern is the same thing's happening to the left. You will be devoured by your Fringe, because people are angry, just like with maga. And it is unsatisfying on a level because of the S in the DSA and this nuance point, which is totally true. I know this. Don't beat me up over this, people. I know. Social democracy and the DSA are very different things. I know, I know, I understand. One is an ideology, one's an organization. I know. But most people don't know that. And as soon as they hear the social part, they don't even wanna hear the rest of the word or the explanation. That's my concern.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

So here's what my pushback would be to that. The difference between the extremes on the right and the left is that the extremes on the right are looking to strip voting rights away. The extreme on the right is looking to consolidate power for Donald Trump. The extreme on the right is looking to advance the rise of climate change, advance the rise of fossil fuel companies to the detriment of climate. The extreme on the left is looking to get universal health care. Like there is such a disparity between what the extremes on both sides are looking to do. And so it's much harder to vilify as these really spooky boogeymen, this idea that when DSA candidates get into office that they're looking to usher in the downfall of this country when. When their most extreme position is universal healthcare.

[Chris Cuomo]

Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from Chili Pad by Sleep Me. All right, look, big reason that you don't get the restorative sleep that you need is that you're too heated up when you go to bed. Why? Stress mostly. A lot of it is this stupid thing, right? That's what it's about. Here's the good news. And science helps with this. And I mention science a lot because a lot of my advertising partners are people that I know have a clinical basis for what they're doing. That's why it's a lot about science, because it should be. And the Chilipad 2.0 is a water based mattress topper that actively controls your bed temperature from 55 to 115 degrees all night long. No new mattress, no renovation. It fits right over whatever you already have. And it deals with the biggest factor, which is body temperature. So the Chilipad 2.0 actively cools or warms your bed using water. And water is the key. Fans just move air around. Right. Chilipad uses actively chilled water to cool the bed, actually pulling heat away from your body. And that's the difference. And it's the difference between Standing in the rain and jumping in a cold pool. You see what I'm saying? My sleep is a great example of this. I get hot. I have to take off almost all the covers and keep them like, just in, like in my midsection. But I got my legs free. I used to think it was because I needed to be ready to get out of bed to fight whoever came. That's crazy. But I think now it's more about body temperature than anything else. So visit www.you sleep me Cuomo and you will get your Chilipad 2.0 for up to 255 bucks off if you use the code CUOMO. Their special offer is available for listeners of the Chris Cuomo Project. And that's why you use Cuomo, but only for a limited time. Plus it ships free and you can try it risk free for 30 days with flexible payments and financing options. So if you don't like it, you. You can return it at no cost. How do you lose? Visit Sleep Me Cuomo. The headlines are still gonna be there in the morning. Put the phone down, get to the right temperature, and get to sleep again. If this were an academic debate, if this were an academic setting, I think the left wins all day long. But it isn't. And, well, I'm a capitalist, though. I want a chance to get ahead. I want all these things. And you are now gonna have to defend that in a way that I think is gonna be.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Look, there are what, five DSA candidates who are going to be members of Congress? Look, I'm a capitalist. I think the vast majority of the Democratic Party are capitalists as well. Again, we have had people who have advocated for democratic socialism who are not looking to tear down the structure of the government, but are instead looking to put up guardrails to make sure that it actually works. And frankly, Chris, that's necessary because it's social democracy. It's social democracy, yes. But in large part, what these DSA candidates are advocating for is exactly that.

[Chris Cuomo]

So, look, I get that this frustrates you, and it should frustrate you because it is an unfair. Painting some with all or painting all with some. I get it. But that's politics, brother. Yeah. And it does concern me as somebody who wants to see change. You know, am I. Am I a DSA guy? No, I'm not a DSA guy. Am I a MAGA guy? No. Do I think MAGA is better than dsa? No. And here's why. Dsa, in my estimation, okay, is not about hating what people are. Now, some Jews will say to me. Really?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Okay.

[Chris Cuomo]

But it depends who we're talking about and, and which DSA member we're talking about. MAGA to me, was inherently inimical and xenophobic. So to me, in a battle of the worst, I give it to MAGA as the worst, not dsa. But I don't like arguing their position because I don't like having to own any suggestion of socialism because I got to explain it. And I'm losing. That's all.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

That's all I'm saying. The pushback is going to be the part that's going to make this like, I get that you want to make it DSA versus maga. And so having to shoulder the baggage of your side, your respective side's fringes is going to be, is going to be difficult. But like also consider this. Who are the most popular politicians in America right now? Zorn Mamdani, AOC Bernie Sanders. So you can't make the argument that there's all this baggage to shoulder when at the same time those politicians are also the most popular. Look, Donald Trump within the party.

[Chris Cuomo]

Within the party.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Completely, completely underwater.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, not with his party. Do you see what I'm saying? Once you make it about all Americans, he's not underwater in his party. You know, once you make it, everybody now, Zoran Mamdani and AOC are not at the top of the list. You know, now Donald Trump is not at the top of the list once

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

it's everybody for national approval. Bernie Sanders is like the most popular politician in America.

[Chris Cuomo]

As Democrats.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

No. Among everybody.

[Chris Cuomo]

Let's see. Go ahead, keep making your point. What was on my wife's face? That's disgusting.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I'm looking for it too.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah. National popularity polls.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Here we go. Elliot Morris does a great newsletter called Strength in Numbers. I'm going to read. This is from, from Elliot Morris's it's the Strength in numbers slash verisite poll from June 22nd of this year. Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders, Zoran Mamdani, Schwarzenegger, Pete Buttigieg, Jon Ossoff, AOC Marco Rubio, Kamala Harris Newsom Vance Trump, Musk Jeffries, Mike Johnson Schumer, Thune Carlson. That's down. That's going down the list. But most popular politicians on this list, Obama, Bernie, Zoran Buttigieg, Ossoff, AOC I

[Chris Cuomo]

think a big part of that is that the disruption is the dominant ethos and it is on the left now, perhaps. Right, because the right is on the right is on. In power. So look, you may be right and that's okay with me because I believe that elections have consequences. And I used to say the same thing to New Yorkers about Rudy Giuliani Pre 9 11. Pre 9 11. Because 911 changed everything for Rudy.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Normal, normal Rudy Giuliani. The Rudy Giuliani whose photo I have on my childhood bedroom wall standing next to Joe Torre, signed by Joe Torre, wearing the Yankees, you know, the Yankees fire truck.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, he really became the Yankees guy after 9 11. But yes, he always liked the Yankees. But before that, he was in trouble. And he was in trouble because elections have consequences. And you wanted a guy who was a tough guy who wanted to prosecute everything the way he thought, and he didn't want to work with anybody. And he was a bully and he didn't like unions. And he was underwater in New York City until 9 11. And the moment often makes the man. And in the beginning he was fine. But the. The real battle is going to be, and whether or not your book comes to fruition is going to be, what is the narrative of the midterms? If it's, well, I went to war to stop these terrorists and you want them to win. If it is an Islam versus Christian country bullshit narrative, that's a problem. If it's on the economy, I don't know how you lose, except for the boogeyman of what the remedy is. And I think you guys will have had so much opportunity to say, let me be very clear, and you. And look, and you guys are going to have to get it together, where whoever's speaking for the party can say, I'm telling you right now, I'm not looking to get rid of capitalism. And you're not gonna have your more popular people say, yes, we are. Now, Bernie Sanders will walk that line. I think AOC will walk that line. But I don't know. I don't know who bubbles up as a big shot in the midterms.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

And it remains to be seen. I mean, look, the reality is we don't have a quote unquote leader of the Democratic Party right now. We don't have a standard bearer involved.

[Chris Cuomo]

You think Schumer's gotta go? You think Jeffries has to go?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I think we need young, dynamic new leadership. I think we need new everything. I think anything that is a relic of the past is going to be an albatross around Democrats.

[Chris Cuomo]

You like Talarico?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yes, I love Tal. I. I think he is. I have been interviewing James for years now, maybe five or six years, and he's become a friend of mine. And. And, man, I think he is a generational talent.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah. I think he. I think he's great. I actually think he's. And I don't like that people put him in the same lane, even though I'm about to do it. Only because that's the state of play as Buttigieg. Because, one, I don't even know that the guy's gay. I don't even care if he's gay. But, you know, obviously, that does matter in American society.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Who are you talking about?

[Chris Cuomo]

Pete Buttigieg. Every time they say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yes. People know Pete Buttigieg is gay, and now they know that Colin Yost was his college roommate. What I'm saying is they don't know about Talarico. And they say all these things. I don't care. I think America's moved past.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

He's got a girlfriend. There's, like a picture of.

[Chris Cuomo]

I know, but it's like, who cares?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chris Cuomo]

You know what I mean to me? And you lose on that one. But I think he's better than Buddha judge. I do. Because here's why. He is a real Christian. Okay. And I'm not saying Buttigieg, isn't it. I'm not here to judge people on that level. I think religion overall is a complete point of hypocrisy for too many who use it. But no Christian conservative is going to look at Talarico and say, yeah, but you're not a real one, because, yeah, he is. Yeah. And he is so smart and savvy. I just don't know why he let his honesty get the better of him and owned that he made a mistake when he was talking about transgender in the spectrum. And he was making too fine a point. I don't know why he ever said any of that. I. You know, I. Because they kill you with apologies in politics. But I do wonder, is he the same as Imam Donnie in your mind? Do you believe he's about the same things in the same way? And does. Can only one of them be what the party is?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

I think in large part, they espouse the same views in the sense that. In the sense that, look, both are seeking to deliver. I mean, these. What they're seeking to deliver, what they're advocating for is. Is pretty. Pretty standard fare on the left. I mean, it's making sure that people have health care. It's making sure that people have access to voting. It's making sure that people. That people's lives are made easier. I mean, this is. There are no crazy extreme positions that either of them have advocated for in terms of what they want to do with power. So I think it's, you know, stylistically sure, maybe a little different, but also both dynamic charismatic candidates and politicians and have have shown a really clear ability to be able to communicate something that is virtually non existent on the left. And the people who have shown an ability to communicate at a bare minimum are some of the most popular politicians in this country. Number one most popular politician is Barack Obama because he can string together a sentence and make people feel something. And the fact that nobody else can do that is a condemnation, an indictment of our politics. But it's funny that you gotta be

[Chris Cuomo]

coming from the outside right now. I don't think it can be done right now from the inside. Islamism and the specter of it, I will not call it a boogeyman because extreme Islamism is a problem. Is it a problem in America? No, it is not. We are not dealing with it in the way that many others in Europe already are. Do you believe it presents a problem for your party?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

No, I think that right now even, even the candidates, even Muslim candidates are advocating for the same thing as everybody else. I mean, you look at Muslim Democratic candidates who are advocating for cost of living issues, who are advocating for health care, who are advocating for affordability, I think that the right will try and paint any foreign born or ethnic candidates as the worst fringes of what they can represent as being of that religion. When, but when you listen to those candidates and what they're espousing, it is the same thing that not only other candidates who are not Muslim are espousing, but the same thing that Americans are telling people that they're starving for, which is just to do what your shirt says, which is fix America first. And so I think that we will contend with the boogeymen that we always contend with, that we have been contending with for years, whether it's brown people or gay people or trans people or anybody else who is welcome in the tent in the pro democracy coalition. But I think the onus is going to be on us to message well and on those candidates to sell themselves well that what they're actually advocating for is to fix the problems that we're contending with that people are telling us over and over and over again that they need fixed.

[Chris Cuomo]

What's your biggest fear?

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Biggest fear is that Trump is successful in his efforts to undermine the midterm elections or subsequent elections. You know, I do a series with Mark Elias So I am, I am pretty damn attuned to these threats to democracy that Trump attempts and Republicans allow him to attempt on a daily basis, whether it's trying to eliminate mail in voting, whether it's these threats to send ICE to the polls, whether it's, you know, this specter of getting one of these Putin guys like Maduro to come out and say, you know what, Venezuela was involved in a scheme to undermine the 2020 election. And Trump says, see, I told you, now we have, that's coming, by the way, justification.

[Chris Cuomo]

I don't know that it's Maduro, but you know, he's going to give a speech and now I, I would, I would normally say, yeah, but their is so ham fisted that he's just going to come out and say what we already heard. I don't know that I'm right. I don't know. I'm not saying that there, there's anything that they can show that would be dispositive to me. I know the record too well and I don't buy this.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

No, no, but it's not about, it's not about convincing. It's, it's not about convincing you. It's not about convincing smart people. It's not about convincing people who are acting in good faith. It is about giving them any flimsy justification humanly possible to be able to say, now we have a pretext to be able to go in and issue all of these emergency declarations and sweeping edicts. Because after all, if I don't, then I'm committing political malpractice. Because now we know that Russia or Venezuela or some other or China interfered in the 2020 election. And I as President of the United States couldn't possibly allow that to happen again. It would be malpractice on my part. And so I have no choice but to issue these sweeping edicts. I have no choice but to send ICE to the polls. I have no choice but to mandate the Save America act by executive order, whatever he's going to try to do. But all this does, I mean, like, he's not trying to convince you because you know better, but he doesn't need to convince you. You know, in, in the January six situation, we found out because of the January six committee that Trump had said, just say that there was fraud and leave the rest to me. And the Republican congressman, he's only looking for some flimsy pretext, some justification from the outside to be able to make the case. However, however unconvincing it may be to be Able to do what he was going to do anyway.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes. But remember why? Because you're right. Because people are angry and people are outraged and people want to reject the system, and people believe the system is broken. And the irony is, if. And I mean this, God forbid, Trump does what you're saying, right now, the only thing standing between him and ruining the democracy are the institutions. It would be the courts. They would be the last defense. And I have to say, the good news is the courts have stood up better than the other two branches through Trump. I'm not saying they're perfect. Everything is imperfect. They are more imperfect now than they were before, but they have stood up and they have stood up against him more than they have not.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Yeah, and I agree. And thank God. I mean, watching these district court judges and these appellate judges. Supreme Court is bulwarks, even. Judges even. I mean, you know, I think. I think that's giving him too much credit. You look at, like, you look at people applauding them for upholding birthright citizenship. The bar cannot be that low that we're saying, oh, look, look how great the Supreme Court is. Such neutral arbiters of the law. They deigned to rule that the plain text of the Constitution remains the plain text of the Constitution.

[Chris Cuomo]

Brian. They could have ruled under the same theory, okay? Birthright citizenship is absolutely the law of the land. And the context was for slaves, for enslaved people. And Congress does have the ability to modify what the. They could have said that, and there would have been no appeal taken. And several of the judges agree with that idea. So take the win where you get it. You know, so you know that that is, you know, because that is one of the one that is such a difference between law and politics, where people are like, yeah, that is weird. I mean, it really. It wasn't intended for what we're dealing with today. It was just, oh, now it's okay to do that. You know, these are the same people used to say, you can never do that. So take the win. The judiciary has held up better than the other two branches. And I don't want to have another January 6th test where Mike Pence can do the absolute minimum and see himself as a hero. But I think your book is written at the right time. I think you're raising the right questions. And I love having this conversation with you, because what we both know is, you gotta fix America. She needs fixing. Doesn't mean she's completely broken, doesn't mean that we're dying. But we've gotta do better. Whatever Our rate of progress is. Is. Is not enough, period. And people are gonna want that in the midterms. And we will watch it together. My handsome friend, Brian Tyler Cohen, I am so appreciative of your success. I'm glad you're having it.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it. And for those who are listening, if you want to grab the book, it is out now called the Day after, and you can find it anywhere.

[Chris Cuomo]

Books are sold anywhere. You don't have to just go to one place. Anywhere you want. Brian Tyler Cohen. Well, you all know him. Anybody who's watching me is a fan of his. And the Day after is a book that you should read now. So you have the right question straight in your head.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Chris, I appreciate you, man. Thank you so much.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes, I do like Brian Tyler Cohen. Why? Because I agree with him about everything. No, that's boring. Why? Because I think he cares. Because I think he's a real one. Because I think he's clever, because I think he's charming, because I think he's compelling. And I think the Day after is a good read. How do I know? Because I spent two hours going through it, which is a lot for me, because I take in information very quickly, and I do it all the time because this is my job, right? So I know how to read a book about politics, and I've seen a lot of the things and I understand a lot of the things, so I can get through it very quickly. And I think that this is smart. And I think he's underestimating the power of a couple of challenges. And that makes sense because he's a partisan and he wants to win, and he's a persuader, and that's good, too. And it's good for you to know that. And I think he's good at it. So I hope you read the book. I hope this conversation was good in terms of helping you flesh out a little bit of what's going on and why it's going on. Thank you for subscribing and following. I still don't know why I say that when you're already watching this. Like, why wouldn't you be a subscriber? I have to do better on what I give my YouTube subscribers. I know that I am overwhelmed with content production right now. I'm overwhelmed doing two podcasts, a radio show, and a TV show. I wish I didn't have to do all of them. That's not completely true, by the way. I think that there is a part of me that enjoys the diversity and doing different things. There's also a part of me that is frustrated by it and exhausted by it. But I'm also grateful for the opportunity to be able to do it and that each of them seems to be growing. So that's good, right? So thank you for subscribing and following. I'm trying. Thank you for giving me a chance and thank you for commenting and thank you for being on the journey. And we are on it. We are on it. I don't know where it goes, but I know that the attitude I have towards whatever comes is let it come. Because if I don't control, I say the same prayer every night. You want to hear it? I thank God for the merciful grace of his merciful grace of his forgiveness. And I ask him for the ability to prepare, perform, prevent, and protect. And that is a little bit of a. Oh, God, you, you. You kind of feel like you're. You're a little targeted there. That's how I feel. Haunted. Hunted. Rightly, wrongly, bothly. But it's this disposition and the journey is real. The danger is real. The challenge is real. My attitude has not changed, which is, let's get after it.

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