James Carville on Why Voters Are Abandoning Democrats

Summary

The Chris Cuomo Project: Episode Summary

Episode Title: James Carville on Why Voters Are Abandoning Democrats
Release Date: March 13, 2025
Guest: James Carville
Host: Chris Cuomo

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, host Chris Cuomo engages in a candid and in-depth conversation with renowned political strategist and commentator, James Carville. The discussion delves into the current challenges facing the Democratic Party, Carville's criticisms of former President Donald Trump, and his strategic insights on revitalizing Democratic efforts to regain voter trust and overcome unprecedented national crises.

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James Carville’s Critique of Donald Trump and Democratic Strategy

Attacking Trump Tactics
James Carville opens the dialogue by addressing his persistent criticism of Donald Trump, even advocating extreme measures such as implying Trump may have syphilis. At [03:13], Carville states:

“If you had an enlarged prostate or a pre-cancerous skin lesion, you wouldn’t steal your medical records... So unlike people who say, 'I’m just asking questions,' I’m saying there’s something fundamentally wrong here.”

Strategic Subterfuge
Carville explains his approach as a way to divert energy from the Democratic base toward combating Trump, believing that this tactical aggression can create space for the party to focus on more constructive strategies.

“Carvel is taking some energy out of the room of this desire to come at Trump... that’s what Democrats need to realize about the opportunity in this moment.” [00:02:39]

State of the Democratic Party
At [05:24], Carville highlights his experience of being fired from major cable networks, framing it as a testament to his resilience and relevance:

“I think I’m the only person that’s ever been fired from all three major cable networks. I have the hat trick of cable TV firings which I think gives me great gravitas.” [05:24]

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Current National Crisis and Democratic Response

Perceived National Threats
Carville expresses deep concerns about the state of the nation, citing foreign policy missteps, economic instability, and erosion of constitutional norms. At [08:19], he emphasizes:

“We have a president who is siding with Belarus and North Korea and Russia. We have a president that does not respect our institutions... I think we've had presidents that have made mistakes, the Iraq war being one...” [08:19]

Debt Ceiling and Economic Stability
Discussing the debt ceiling crisis, Carville warns of the severe consequences of a default, underscoring the urgency for Democrats to negotiate effectively.

“...a financial meltdown that we can hardly imagine. We have a president that does not respect our institutions...” [07:46]

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Democratic Party's Image and Voter Perception

Rebuilding the Democratic Brand
Carville criticizes the current Democratic approach as complacent and grievance-focused, advocating instead for a united and determined party brand.

“I think the image of the party is at an all-time low. By being determined, being patriotic... we can rebuild the party brand.” [16:05]

Talent and Communication
Highlighting the need for strong communicators within the party, Carville praises figures like Senator Slotkin and mentions potential candidates such as Ruben Gallego and Governor Wes Moore as pivotal for future success.

“Senator Slotkin, who I'm an enormous admirer of Senator Slotkin as a candidate, as a communicator...” [22:12]
“Governor Wes Moore... exudes change. So I agree with you. He'd be a great guy.” [53:02]

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Media’s Evolving Role and the Rise of Podcasts

Declining Traditional Media Influence
Carville discusses the shift from traditional media dominance to the burgeoning influence of podcasts, noting that media is now less powerful and more fragmented.

“The media is considerably less powerful than it used to be... podcasting allows people from two different generations... to have a conversation.” [55:00]

Challenges with Modern Media Formats
Both Cuomo and Carville touch upon the limitations of podcasts, such as the prevalence of hot takes over rigorous analysis, using Joe Rogan’s handling of misinformation about Social Security as a prime example.

“The problem with podcasts is overwhelmingly they're just takes, and they have to be hot takes...” [56:20]

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Looking Forward: Strategies for Democratic Revival

Unified and Clever Negotiations
Carville urges the Democratic Party to present a united front, engage in clever and judicious negotiations, and prepare strategically for inevitable political battles.

“We have to show that we're a determined political party... to fight them at every level.” [22:18]

Embracing Pluralism and Generational Shifts
He advocates for embracing American pluralism and reorienting policies to be more favorable to younger generations, emphasizing the need for the nation to adapt to changing demographics and economic realities.

“People would come to embrace American pluralism... make this nation a little less comfortable for people over 50 and a little more opportunistic for people under 50.” [45:34]

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Legacy and Personal Reflections

Carville’s Enduring Relevance
Reflecting on his long-standing influence, Carville attributes his continued relevance to his refusal to conform to boring political norms, embracing bold and unconventional strategies.

“If you're not boring, you're going to be relevant... I've tried not to be boring.” [42:19]

Legacy and Aspirations
Carville hopes to inspire future generations to engage in politics with enthusiasm and strategic thinking, emphasizing the importance of having fun while fighting for meaningful causes.

“I want people to say, 'That guy had a life in politics and he seemed to have had a good time doing it.'” [44:23]

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Conclusion

James Carville provides a passionate and strategic critique of the current Democratic Party and the broader national landscape. He emphasizes the necessity for unity, intelligent negotiation, and a renewed focus on addressing systemic issues to reclaim voter trust. His insights offer a roadmap for Democrats to navigate through what he perceives as one of the most perilous moments in American history, advocating for resilience, cleverness, and a steadfast belief in American pluralism.

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Notable Quotes:

• “I think we're in the most serious crisis that this country has ever faced.” — James Carville [06:03]
• “The Democrats are not the problem. They don’t have any power.” — James Carville [15:42]
• “You have to recognize when something is really just not right.” — James Carville [50:30]
• “I still believe in America. This too shall pass.” — James Carville [46:34]

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Final Thoughts

James Carville's conversation with Chris Cuomo offers a critical examination of the Democratic Party's current trajectory and provides strategic insights aimed at reversing voter abandonment. His emphasis on unity, strategic communication, and addressing key national issues presents a thought-provoking blueprint for Democrats striving to regain their footing in a complex and rapidly evolving political landscape.

Transcript

[Chris Cuomo]

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[James Carville]

Yeah. Okay.

[Chris Cuomo]

Now you dated yourself by using that particular STD in reference to Trump. Syphilis is an old man's disease. You really should have gone with like, chlamydia or something like that. That's what the kids are talking about today. So I know you. I have been a student of Yours for many years. I grew up listening to you on phone calls and in public. What are you going for here with the I'm worried that Trump has syphilis.

[James Carville]

Well, okay, first of all, there's something wrong with him. That's pretty clear that, that meeting in the Oval Office was a significant variation. Secondly, we do know that he did have red splotches on his hand, which, you know, it could be an indication of syphilis. But the other thing that we know that we had to talk about, on January 17, 2017, Keith Schiller and two other goons broke into his doctor's office, Dr. Borenstein, and confiscated his health records. We have never seen them, we don't know what's in it. So if, if I take, of course I'm speculating. Yes, but if he had an enlarged prostate or had a pre cancerous skin lesion, you wouldn't steal your medical records, would you? You wouldn't break into your internist and send people to confiscate your medical records. So unlike people who say, well, I'm, I'm just asking questions.

[Chris Cuomo]

No, you're not.

[James Carville]

Of course I did some deterioration at him. He did have skin splotches. He did confiscate his medical records. What? Maybe there's a benign explanation, I don't know. But, and we did watch a event unlike anything we've ever seen in American history in the Oval Office. And so people can say, well, I just kind of happened, and say, let's be fair about it. People can say there's something really fundamentally wrong here. And that's what I'm saying.

[Chris Cuomo]

But look, I'm with you. And once again, I think it's two weeks in a row I've had to congratulate you for winning the clickbait contest with the media. And what I love about it, James, I'll tell you this, and it's not just that you're a friend and I'm a fan of yours, it's that I love when people count you out and then you decide to show people that you know how to play the game as it is currently played if you wanted to. So bravo to you. And you're not even the more intelligent or interesting person in your couple, by the way.

[James Carville]

But look, just another credential I have, Chris. I think I'm the only person that's ever been fired from all three major cable networks.

[Chris Cuomo]

Really.

[James Carville]

I was fired from fox, I was fired from cnn, and I was fired from msnbc. So I have the hat trick of cable TV firings which I think gives me great, great gravitas.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's impressive. Although I must say, and I'm not a 1 upper, as you know, but I think my firing is far more egregious in the cable world than all three of yours combined.

[James Carville]

I got a lot of fights I want to get into.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, this is, this is some ground.

[James Carville]

That you'll see, but you might have had a longer. You might have scored from 60ft out. Goal. But I got a hat trick.

[Chris Cuomo]

You definitely have a hat trick. But you're so valuable. You understand what Democrats are at their best so well. And I know that you don't believe that you're. That, that attacking Trump is going to get you guys where you want to be. And we have the Democrats all putting out the same video. Shit ain't true. Complain, complain, complain. When do the Democrats get into the business of better? Because you're not going to beat Trump or who comes after him by being the part of your grievance.

[James Carville]

Well, first of all, events, my dear boy, events. That's what I think. How McMillan or Wilson, one of them said, let's get out. I think right now I'll be very serious. I'm 80 years old. I think this is the most serious crisis that this country has ever faced. I think the entire idea of the United States is in jeopardy. I really do. I think, I think it's fundamentally that profound a problem. And I think if the Democrats act clever, act determined, understand where to stand this moment in history, I think that it would be very successful.

[Chris Cuomo]

You referenced Prime Minister McMillan. Events. Events are what tell the story. What are the events that you're pointing to, James, that give you this concern of where we are, the debt ceiling.

[James Carville]

They're not going to get the vote and they have to go to Hawking. All right. We just need to be quiet. They're going to have to stack arms because they're not going to. They're not going to have votes. They're not going to have the votes to have four and a half trillion dollars in tax cuts and do all the things they want. And so, you know, when, like, how.

[Chris Cuomo]

Does that make it a bad situation?

[James Carville]

I don't think. I don't know that it's a bad situation.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, you said it's never been in crisis like this. What's the crisis?

[James Carville]

We have a president who is siding with Belarus and North Korea and Russia. I'm sorry, that's a crisis. We have a president that has appointed some of the most incompetent people you can Imagine to United States Congress. We have a president who is starting a trade war with our three biggest trading partners. And we're watching the beginnings of which could be a financial meltdown that we can hardly imagine. We have a president that does not respect our institutions, does not respect the limited powers and separation of powers that we have in our Constitution. I can think of no bigger crisis this country has been in in my lifetime, ever. I think we've had presidents that have made mistakes, the Iraq war being one, which I'm happy to say I've been. But I thought that they did it because they thought it would work. They didn't do it because they thought it would hurt the United States. I think they were wrong. I am not convinced at all that Donald Trump loves the United States. I'm pretty convinced he doesn't love the idea of the United States, that he's pretty clear on that. And look at what's happening in every instance. Look at that. Now we're getting a guaranteed crypto floor. I mean, it's breathtaking. We're talking about not paying attention to spending, authorized congressional spending, which you can't be any more violative of the Constitution than that we are in a deep and profound crisis. And unless Democrats are clever and there's some people in the Republican Party just say, I simply can't go there anymore. I'm sorry, and we might get to that point, but that's what's going to save us.

[Chris Cuomo]

Are you giving the President way too much credit for his words becoming deeds just because he's saying he's going to do things?

[James Carville]

Let's look at his deeds. Let's look at his deeds. Did he slap a 25% tariff on counter in Mexico? Yes, he did. Did he slap a 10% tariff?

[Chris Cuomo]

He didn't.

[James Carville]

It didn't.

[Chris Cuomo]

They didn't really go into effect.

[James Carville]

He's just saying, I'm going to go.

[Chris Cuomo]

Through the go ahead. I got a counter every once in a while.

[James Carville]

But did he do that? Did he vote. Did he vote with North Korea, Russia and Belarus and the United States? He did that.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes.

[James Carville]

Yes, he did point some of the most insane people you can imagine to Cabinet post. That would be no other. Okay, how much more do you have to have? What does he have to do to say, okay, did he come into office and say, I'm going to drop price from day one? Yes. Did he have an agriculture Secretary that actually said the solution to the crisis is to raise chickens in your backyard? Yeah, she said that. She really, honest to God, said that. Okay, so it's obviously. Well, let's don't pay attention to what he says. Let's pay attention to what he does. Good. Let's just talk about what he's doing right now.

[Chris Cuomo]

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[James Carville]

Well you know the Democrats. It's been since January 20th and the Democrats are not the problem. They don't have any problem. They don't have any power. Let me give you something. So we have Elon Musk is doge. Okay. We all know that too many federal employees. Do you know what the growth in federal employment has been from 1965 through 2025. 60 year growth.

[Chris Cuomo]

Very, very slim.

[James Carville]

Zero. Okay. If you're going to say to me, well are there some people in the Falcons bay? I'm sure there are but we were in 1965. Look it up. We're a nation maybe 150 million people. I don't know. 140. We're now a nation of 335 million people. The number of government federal employees we have per person has risen exponentially. So if we operate under a common factual basis of what some things we should do. But is it right? Democrats have a chance. The image of the party is at an all time low. By being determined, being patriotic and doing this and showing that we're not a hoo ha screaming and we have really talented people. We put them out on different shows and we can rebuild the party brand.

[Chris Cuomo]

But that's the blessing. That's the blessing of the curse. Right? The blessing of the curse is that you got your ass whooped. Now you get a chance to recreate yourself.

[James Carville]

How should they And I'm fine to go to. It's a, you know, we what we again? We played the super bowl with our seventh string quarterback. We lost About a point and a half. We actually picked up a House seat. It was terrible. We didn't. We don't have any power, but we don't start from zero. And if we get it and we have really, really talented people.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, but you lost the popular. Well, I want to hear who you think the talented people. You lost the popular vote, which you rarely do to a guy you had no business losing to.

[James Carville]

If we again lost to the jets, but we had our seven strength quarterback. If we didn't, we, we had 10 people who were normal to town. But I'm not. What I'm saying is the country is in the most perilous position. I was born on the day of the first kamikaze attack. October 25, 1944, Battle of Leyte Gulf. Look it up. I have never seen the country, the Constitution, the idea of the United States in greater peril than it is right now ever.

[Chris Cuomo]

What are your three biggest concerns about.

[James Carville]

What happens, what events happen? Well, first of all, Ukraine collapses and Putin invades Western Europe, a place that has been peaceful since God knows when. You have adventurism in East Asia, particularly the South China Sea and we get extended net. We have a collapse of the financial markets which is way beyond of minor consideration right now. We don't have another election. We pay no attention to restrictions on spending or congressional restrictions or anything like that. We have taken where criminality has become accepted behavior and it should never be accepted behavior. We have come to a country where when we grew up, we were taught that the fundamental idea of the country that no person is above the law. We now have a president that is above the law. All of these things are enormously disturbing to me. Enormously disturbing.

[Chris Cuomo]

I want to hear who you think your great Democrats are. But before you tell me also tell me why the Democrats didn't ask for the perception that Trump is judgment proof by going after him politically with the two impeachments on such thin cases.

[James Carville]

I don't think the case of the Ukraine case was thin at all. I think it was the most violated thing where you had an authorized expenditure authorized by the Congress. And he said, I will impound that expenditure and leave it impounded until you do research on my political power. I will not concede that that is all a minor case. I think. I think it's one of the more valid things but that you knew you.

[Chris Cuomo]

Would never get him removed again.

[James Carville]

If we want to argue should they impeach him or not, that doesn't rise to the moment we at. Let's just assume that they shouldn't have done it. We're still. All of the things that outlined are true, right Today, as opposed to defending everything that the Democrats did, of course, 50 million jobs since. In this century compared to one day. You know, okay, I hate to be a broken record, but it's also true. Right?

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, you, actually, you guys need to be more of a broken record. Jim, I think one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is, you know, even if I were to accept the scenario as you see it right now, how did we get here? And you have to think about how you got outplayed by this guy and a bunch of clowns. You know, it matters.

[James Carville]

I don't want a Monday morning quarterback.

[Chris Cuomo]

But no, I'm just saying in terms.

[James Carville]

Of what you do different, I'm not here to say whether they should impeach them or not.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm here to tell you I agree.

[James Carville]

Country is in fundamental peril. The entire experience could. Bob. Now, we could spend our time saying we shouldn't have done this.

[Chris Cuomo]

And no, I'm saying what got us here and what has to change again.

[James Carville]

What has to change is we have to show that we're a determined party, that we understand the absolute historical moment we're in and we're going to be up to it. We're going to be unified, we're going to speak with one voice. We're going to put our best voices out there, which I think we're doing right now with Senator Slotkin, who I'm enormous admirer of Senator Slotkin as a candidate, as a communicator, but I'm not. When I think the whole thing is about to compression down, you can say, well, we should have did this.

[Chris Cuomo]

No, I'm asking you what you should be doing now. How do you. Can you avoid what's going to happen?

[James Carville]

We should be a determined political party that understands that they are at risk of ruining the entire country and we should fight them at every level. And when they come to us and need our help, we should be very wise, very clever and very judicious in these negotiations. And I think that they're going to do that. But what this is not. Well, one side says this. One side says this. This is one side, in my humble opinion, that wants to ruin the country, that doesn't like the country, that doesn't like the ideas that the country was built on, doesn't like the idea that we're a pluralistic society that are governed by laws. That's what I really think.

[Chris Cuomo]

How do you Explain that the cell on the other side is exactly that. That we're a society of laws and the Constitution and that we allowed the principles to get perverted by extreme left views. That's the cell for the right.

[James Carville]

So what extreme left view perverts the country? Now? Some of them I profoundly disagree with. I think people that people that follow adhere to identity politics are profoundly wrong. I think it's politically not smart. But they're not evil people. They're not illegal. If I want to call somebody Latinx, I think it's a dumb way to communicate, but doesn't make you a bad person at all. And some of the ideas they have, but they're not fundamentally bad people. I think they're fundamentally naive people who probably see the error in their ways. I've been speaking out on this since April. Give it the exact date. April 27, 2021. But there's a difference between having esoteric ideas in siding with Belarus and North Korea and Russia. One is a kind of naive thing, the other is evil. There's a difference between naivety and evil.

[Chris Cuomo]

So their justification is it wasn't that we were voting with them. We're trying to get Russia to stay at the table and end the war. And the UN wanted to pass a resolution that blamed Russia and would have made them leave the table.

[James Carville]

You're a very simple man. You like the simple truth?

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes, I'm very simple.

[James Carville]

Ukraine invade Russia?

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes.

[James Carville]

Ukraine invaded Russia.

[Chris Cuomo]

Of course not. Russia invaded Ukraine.

[James Carville]

Thank you. So that's the fundamental thing that Trump says. So is peace so dear. Is peace so dear in that you have an entirely false narrative about what happened, and you have to associate yourself with Kim Il Jong in Belarus, in Russia, and you have to turn your back on some of the. On South Korea, on Japan, on New Zealand and Australia and Thailand and Vietnam and Germany and France and Italy and Spain and the United Kingdom and Canada and Mexico. I mean, this is not an equal argument. I agree on one hand. With the other hand, Jim, how do.

[Chris Cuomo]

You process why he's doing it? My best understanding of why he's doing it from his own people is it's not that he likes Russia. Russia is the only superpower involved, so they have all the leverage. So he's playing to them because he believes in power. So he doesn't care about any of the other countries you just mentioned. He only cares about Russia. And if he has to be nice to them to get them to the table, to get them to make this deal, he's okay with that.

[James Carville]

Superpower of what? They invaded a country one fourth their size. They can't barely sail a ship. Anybody, you know, anybody wants to buy a Russian watch or a Russian car, you know, anybody really wants to fly on a Russian airplane, okay? This is John McCain, man. This is a gas station masquerading as a country, right? Look at the Russian economy is, I don't think, is as big as California or Texas.

[Chris Cuomo]

And it's getting crushed right now.

[James Carville]

We're not dealing. Look at what a country like Germany or Japan. Look at what Korea makes. These are the people we want to hang out with. These are the people that we want to ride in a car. These are the cool people of the world. The Russians are not the cool people. I actually think we should consider the possibility that Trump cannot stand the United States. It cannot stand what it's come to stand for. They can't stand the rule of law. It can't stand pluralism, okay? He can't stand what the country is going through. And I don't know what's in somebody's head, but it is a conclusion that I keep coming back to. The man does not like our country.

[Chris Cuomo]

What do you think he wants it to be?

[James Carville]

I don't think. I think he has some. First of all, he wants it to be a kleptocracy. Secondly, to the extent that he has any sense of history, he says, well, the United States should have North America pretty clear. Talks about annex in Mexico. He has talked about annexing Canada. He has talked about annexing Greenland. He has talked about annexing the Panama Canal. All of them. You could argue whether the Panama Canal is in North America or South America or Central America. I think he said, look, I'd like for us to have North America, the Russians have Europe, China to have Asia, and we'd have three superpowers, and we would have authoritarian rule, and the world would be a better place. I think that's his vision.

[Chris Cuomo]

I had this journalist from Lebanon call me, and she says, you know, it's interesting. We've always marveled at how a mistake that we had made, they had made in their region was they always picked people who were seeing, you know, the rulers would wind up being people who were just part of this elite class, rarely in touch with the people that they were ruling, and that America always was an envy because it always seemed that your rulers kind of grew out of your population, she says, but now it seems like you've gone too far in that direction, and you finally have a president who sounds like and thinks like and acts like what we used to call the ugly American. What do you do with that?

[James Carville]

Well, I think it's an astute thing, but Lebanon have been a friend there. I've worked in Israel a lot. Pretty familiar. It's an unfortunate place to try to root because it's so sectarian. Yeah. Understand what our founders were most afraid of. If you look at the Federalist Papers and you notice they were most afraid of factions.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yep.

[James Carville]

That's what Lebanon is.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yep.

[James Carville]

It's factions. You can call it buy anything you want. You have the maranal Christians, you have the Shias, you have the. You name it. The Syrians. You name it. And it's almost. It's a very difficult place to govern.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah.

[James Carville]

It's a great country. Just a stunningly great country. We, on the other hand, had a whole history of being separated. We had a whole history of a constitution. We were at one time what Martin Luther King said. The arc of history bends toward justice. That's what the United States was. And I think you observe Lebanon is kind of astute. And I think Trump likes the idea of us being Lebanon. I think that's we would have a nation of factions and not dreams.

[Chris Cuomo]

I think what frustrates me is his level of success and persuasion was such a low level of intelligence and really savvy that it's been so easy for him to overcome all of the challenges, all of the obstacles that would. We always say it right. Anybody else would have been done 10 gaffes ago. What does it tell you that he has been able to get a majority of this country in terms of a plurality in the election to believe in.

[James Carville]

Him through all of the bad people that had a majority of their country.

[Chris Cuomo]

But here.

[James Carville]

Again, I could go and say I really think this is terrible that these people. But right now we're in peril. I'm not a historian. Right now we're on the beach. Okay. We're getting fired at. Maybe we should have done some things differently. Maybe we should have, like, not cut off Japan's oil or maybe we were too imperialistic or whatever. Right now I'm about to get my ass shot off. That's all I can think about is how do we stay alive and come back and take it. That's where I am. I mean, there's a moment, there's a time for history, there's a time for recriminations, and there's a time to fight.

[Chris Cuomo]

Do the Democrats get it when they're all. When the senators are all putting out the same video that Is a string of bitching about Trump where they say shit ain't true. Is that what you're thinking about?

[James Carville]

Look, I noticed we have some Democratic senators. We're going to see one tonight that are marvelous communicators. I think Ruben Gallego is going to be on the presidential ticket. 1932. I mean, 20.

[Chris Cuomo]

20, 32.

[James Carville]

Two or whatever it is, a 36. I think Chris Murphy is all, well, communicator, but we have. What I'd like to see us do is, is say, you know, some people are better at some things than other people, and some people are better at communicating than other people. Let's put our best people out there. And I think they can do that. You know, it's probably going to make some mistakes. People went crazy in me because I advocated a rope adult strategy. Just don't go out there blazing. There's plenty of time. You know, you're young. You're old enough to remember Ali bouncing off the road. Let the guy punch out. You're not quitting. You're not. You're not doing anything. You're just sitting there, and as soon as he gets tired, you take measure and then boom. And that's, you know, I want us to be more clever. I want less passion, more cleverness.

[Chris Cuomo]

Who do you think is calling the shots?

[James Carville]

Well, I mean, like, I'm like Will Rogers. I'm Bones and organized political party. I'm a Democrat. One of the things I kind of like about Democrats is, you know, you're not the boss of me. Who is? Who is he to tell me what to do? Okay, now. But right now, at this moment, I think some people go stand up in the party. It need to be assertive. It's got to come from inside the caucus. But I have, and I think they have a very smart strategy in place when the inevitable comes and they want a deal. And what I'm honestly trying to do, people try to figure me out. I'm trying to give Hakeem some cover here. Okay, I'm going to New York Times and back, back off a little bit. It's going to be okay. I'm actually trying to give them, you know, because people are calling in and I got to do something now to the. The Light Brigade, but let's put the Light Brigade in reserve. I'm not saying we shouldn't use the Light Brigade, but let's don't use it. Let's don't deploy it right now. And I want to, and I have confidence that they have that I have some reason to believe this, that they, they are planning for the inevitable and we should give. And by the way, if they screw up the negotiations, I'll come on your show. I'll say that was a big screw up but I hit. But they might, just might have a good plan in place.

[Chris Cuomo]

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[James Carville]

I gave you the evidence. I didn't just say be fair to me. I gave you the evidence. Why I think he does. I assigned reasons to my findings.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, no, I, I get it. That doesn't mean that it's the same thing as proof, but I'm okay with the analysis. You can, you can feel it. What I'm saying is. So the Republicans say we need Democrat votes for this budget, for the debt ceiling and for the spending resolutions.

[James Carville]

Right.

[Chris Cuomo]

What does that look like and what is the opportunity in that?

[James Carville]

Well, you know, when you're living in a democracy, in Congress, you negotiate. So it would be, Democrats would say, well, gee, we got 215 votes, we represent people. My guess is it would not be for a very long time frame. And my guess is it would not involve a lot in new debt. But I think short of that, there's a lot of room to go back and forth. But they're not going to agree to anything, I don't think. But a very limited time frame. Look, if you want to, if you wanted. And right now, whatever disastrous that a default would have been two years ago, it's ten times more perilous right now because the whole financial system, the whole financial markets are on edge and it wouldn't take much to reach the tipping point. So that's why I say the Democrats should not be, should be very measured, very determined if they want to talk and negotiate, certainly have an open door. But don't give them, don't give, don't give them very much.

[Chris Cuomo]

So let's take a couple of steps down your road and I'll relay something else that I was told by one of the President's people. I was like, well, he better be careful playing with wanting these tax cuts that didn't pay for themselves the last time. He's got some real conservatives in his caucus that may knuckle up because they got to think about life after Trump. They don't want to own the extension of those tax cuts like they did in 2016. You got a lot more Paul Ryan's than you may think and you could have a real fiscal credit collapse here. And he said, and why would that be a bad thing for Trump? I said, it's on his watch. Everything would go crazy. People would, you know, there'd be all kinds of economic distress. And he says, and then isn't there an opportunity for him to say, you see what happens when you let this Congress deal with everything? I should have more power. Are you afraid of that?

[James Carville]

What I'm afraid of is that, first of all, more debt has been accumulated on Donald John Trump than any president in history. Any. Okay, so let's start there. And if he says Congress can't wallow, it is a Republican Congress, I'm reminded constantly. And so we have a financial collapse that annuities to Trump's benefit as an authoritarian. I think the guy that you're talking to at the White House has not stuck his head in the history book lately, but that's my view.

[Chris Cuomo]

That is absolutely true. The guy who's telling me this is no historian.

[James Carville]

Right. I. You know what's going to happen is they're going to have trouble. I don't know if they get a budget, but the debt ceiling is going to be the point of infection. That's, that's, that's going to be what? What? A fecal matter engages the rollerblade on the debt ceiling. And I think, I think the Democrats have thought about it. I think they're thinking about it. I don't think they're going to go in ad hoc and not having an idea of what they want to do.

[Chris Cuomo]

But even if they cut themselves a good deal, that's of limited duration, that keeps debt down, keeps spending down. So what then? What then?

[James Carville]

You have an election in Virginia. You have an election in Wisconsin, April 1. I have to know the calendar. You have an election in Virginia, New Jersey, the first Tuesday in November of this year. Then you go To Post In 2026, the single most important thing the Democrats can do, not stand on principle, not address inequities in our society. Win the election. After you win the election, you can have all arguments you want. You can address anything that you want to. But now, if you don't think winning is important, how does it feel to lose? So whatever it takes to win, you have to be united. You have to do things that are distasteful. That's okay. Then you win. Then you have the argument. You don't have the argument before you win. That's my advice.

[Chris Cuomo]

One, how interesting do you find it that you are as relevant as you are at 80? And how do you explain it?

[James Carville]

It's something that people don't understand. People say, james, you were wrong about the 2024 election. All right, all right. You were wrong when you said this back then. People will never blame you for being wrong. They will blame you for being boring. And if you're not boring. You're going to be relevant. Okay? That being wrong never has. We all wrong. We all say stuff, we all pop off. And so if the public says, you know what, this guy talks different. He doesn't talk in talking points. He's not afraid to get out in front of something, then the, the public is going to say, I like that guy. I think he's relevant. That's just as simple as it is. I've tried not to be boring. And you know, I got fired from three cable networks and I'm still talking to you and everybody else.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, you'll always be able to talk to me. You're extended family to me. That's different.

[James Carville]

But you know what I think about baseball. Like, I know you're David. You were taught when you played baseball, let the ball come to you. So you're the second baseman, you're the shortstop. Don't charge the ball. You can't move faster than the ball. It's going to get there in plenty of time. Once you get it, then you can throw it. And that's basically what I'm saying. We're all 12th graders playing shortstop right now. Let the ball come to you, don't charge it, don't get ahead of it and bounced up.

[Chris Cuomo]

But to extend the metaphor, be ready for it and know where to go with it.

[James Carville]

Be on the balls of your feet, okay? Every pitch, assume that it's coming to you. You already know that everything that you learn is as a seventh grade shortstop or second baseman or whatever is relevant right now. Just go back in that mindset.

[Chris Cuomo]

What is relevant to you? When you think about, I won't use the word legacy because you'll get angry at me about it, but what do you want for yourself and your role?

[James Carville]

I want people to say, you know, that guy had a life in politics and he seemed to have had a good time doing it. And maybe I ought to get involved at some level. Maybe, I don't know, maybe you don't have to run for office. Or you can be a journalist like you are. You could run for office. You could work in campaigns like I do. You could work for an ngo. You could try something. You. We've told people, in particular young people, politics is such a dirty, nasty doctor dad gang. You know, maybe we've convinced them to not do that. And what I'm trying to do and what we try to do through the movie is say, hey, these guys had a pretty good time. They, they laughed, they drank, they hugged each other in. Then they were not real criminals. They just kind of, you know, with some. Some hard fighting, hard drinking people that had a good time and kind of believed in what they did. And if I do that, I'm the happiest son of a bitch in the face of this earth. I can tell you that right now.

[Chris Cuomo]

If the Lord handed you the wand and said, you get three wishes, what would they be for the society?

[James Carville]

One of them would be that the Democrats have a vigorous in competitive 2028 nominating process where people get a chance to really evaluate what's going on. The other thing that I really want is that people would come to embrace American pluralism. And I like the word pluralism more than any because it allows us all to be different, but all to be part of something bigger. So I'm a huge believer in that. And I think that we need to reorient the country, which is too responsive to older people and property owners like myself, and is very difficult for younger people to afford an education, to afford a house, to afford rent, to afford health insurance. I would like to make this nation a little less comfortable for people over 50 and a little more opportunistic for people under 50. And I think that's something we can.

[Chris Cuomo]

Do 30 years from now. What do you think's different?

[James Carville]

Well, and I'll be taking in the middle of a long dirt nap, you.

[Chris Cuomo]

And I'll be both pushing up daisies. But what do you think?

[James Carville]

I think the country will rise to the occasion here. And I think. I think I probably won't live to say it, but for all of the angst and terror and everything that we're currently going through, which I'm very clear as the most I've ever seen, you know, I still believe in America. You know, just maybe it's not rational, but, you know, what does the Bible say? This too shall pass? I think this too shall pass. At least I hope it does. I mean, I'm not certain. It might not.

[Chris Cuomo]

When you look at guys like me, what do you think we're doing wrong?

[James Carville]

I think that you look at people say guys like, just so look at the world so well, somebody has a point, they have a point. Maybe there's a midpoint, and maybe that's true in some instances. But what we need to do is recognize when something is really just not right. It's not. Not even arguably right. It's just. And understand that there's a difference between mistakes of the heart are strategic mistakes, between violating the law, violating the Constitution, being against the very things that made Us, a country that they're not two separate events. And I always tell people this. If I were definitely consider myself a liberal, not a moderator. But that doesn't matter. But if I were more I would never describe myself as a centrist. I would describe myself as a moderate. And my rationale is this. A centrist depends on where two points go. So this place do that, then you there. If they do that, then you that being a moderate of being. But I've come to understand it being a skeptical of major changes too quickly, of not adhering to some institutional trust or some tradition is a dangerous thing to be. That's a very, I think a very noble thing to be. And a lot of people are moderate in their behavior, moderate in their relationships. And that's a real philosophy. But I think centerism is a word that is dependent on two other stars. I never liked it when President Clinton was for triangulation. I just, I didn't like. I don't. I think he was smart. And if you look at, look at the Clinton Gingrich thing, just how much more clever Bill Clinton was. Yeah, that's what I wanted to be. I want us to be clever people. I, I listen to other night Chris. Sometimes I listen music just at, you know, at night like anybody else. Read the words of God saved a queen. Now I'm no fan of the I'm Irish, okay? My family, they can't stand I don't care. But read the words of it. How to be clever when you face your enemies, the knaves. And just the whole wording of it is like that's what I want us to be. I want us to be clever. And I think we can do that, boy.

[Chris Cuomo]

But it's pretty rare, you know. Look, that's why Clinton, you know, thank God he's still alive. So he doesn't get his due yet. But I don't think your party has come close to him. I remember even pop saying, you know, I won't burn. We won't burden people with the history of my father and Clinton. Of course he wound up doing the nomination for Clinton the second time at.

[James Carville]

The convention on the Supreme Court so bad he could taste it.

[Chris Cuomo]

Listen, so my sister's wedding. I'll tell people this story. I had gotten into a fight right before her wedding and I had all these stitches over my eye. So my father was already pissed off at me and so was Andrew. I had like a two headed dog of a father. Like it was Andrew and my father. So they're both pissed off. George Stephanopoulos is desperately trying to get my father on the phone. I can't remember if it was the first time or the second time that they. That the President asked my father to be on the court. I can't remember. And I can't remember. I know that one time he pushed back. He's like, well, I'm gonna be the chief. Right. And Bill was even okay with that.

[James Carville]

And I think your dad would have been. He would have been great politicians make great Supreme Court.

[Chris Cuomo]

He would have been great. And he would have been an amazing counterbalance to Nino Scalia. They knew each other. They liked each other. Nino, my father would say, was better on the law, horsepower wise, but they would have been interesting. But they didn't want to talk to George because it was the wedding and they didn't have an answer. And Andrew didn't really feel like, you know, giving it. Giving George the respect of getting on the phone. So they made me get on the phone. So I had to get on the phone with George Stephanopoulos. And he was like, why am I talking to you? I'm aware of it. But my father would say about President Clinton that he was a unique understander, that he was smart enough of everybody than everybody in the room, but he had the emotional intelligence to know it. I don't think you've checked those boxes since then.

[James Carville]

Well, you know, a guy like that comes along every hundred years.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, he's a generational talent.

[James Carville]

Right. It's like saying, well, he's not Willie Mays. Okay, fine. You can be pretty good. Not be Willie Mace. Right?

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah.

[James Carville]

And you're right. He understand it, but I do. I remember that vividly. And we, we have some people that have the potential to be that right now. That's. That's what I really believe. I think. Who could be close to Bill Clinton naming names? Somebody's going to call me and say, you didn't mention me. I mentioned Ruben. Okay, that's a. That's a good enough start. And he's too. He just.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'll name a name. You know who I think the best person is with a D after the name in the country? Governor Wes Moore. An elected office right now. I don't think you could beat him.

[James Carville]

I think Wes is great. He's got an incredible resume. He's got charm. He's got Clinton s charm. I. But. But I have to tell you, if you talk to Wes and you say, look, if you take this to the next level, which I hope he does, west will tell you, I'm thinking About doing. But I got to tell you something, Chris, it ain't going to be easy. There's going to be a lot. So really a lot of real talented people out there. But I do. I think. But I think there are other people who are really talented. And when people look at the Democratic Party, you know, I've seen this a thousand times, they think we're old and they think we're urban and we're just.

[Chris Cuomo]

Stuck in the past and defenders of the status quo and the establishment. That's what's hurting you guys right now.

[James Carville]

So. And I think there's nothing old under Maryland's kind of an urban state, but west is not urban, and west does not look like the status quo. He. He exudes change. So I. I agree with you. He'd be great guy.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, look, I mean, you know, I asked you earlier about waving the wand. For me, it would be for us to remember that we created race. We created it. You cut Westmore open and you cut me open, you'll never be able to tell the difference. You'll never tell the difference of any of us on the inside. We created this. And if we created it, then we can make it go away. That would be my wave in the wand, and it would be magical.

[James Carville]

Thinking only people can start a war and only people can.

[Chris Cuomo]

Hey, Jim, do you think that we've broken the media? Do you think that the pod people are now capitalizing on people's dis and mistrust of media and that we've lost it?

[James Carville]

Well, I get this question a lot. The truth about it is the media is considerably less powerful than it used to be. Remember Lyndon Johnson said, I lost a bar. Well, I lost Wall to Cronkite. I lost a war. There's no person that you can say that about. And I think that what's happened is the entire. The entire industry podcast being a reflection of them. It kind of started mostly with talk radio, where people use the media for support as opposed to illumination. I want to listen to that guy because he says what I think. Having said that, some of the podcast stuff is pretty good. What this allows us to do is to sit here and have a 45, 50 minute conversation where we go from the Constitution, we go to your dad being on the Supreme Court, or we go to Trump, or we go to.

[Chris Cuomo]

Anywhere we want to go.

[James Carville]

You could do that, right? And you can't do that in the New York Times. You can't do that on the Sean Hannity show. All right. So podcasting allows people from two different generations, two different parts of the country, two different experiences. To have a conversation, that that's good. That's not a bad thing.

[Chris Cuomo]

No, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think conversation is the cure, as I say, not just because it's alliterative, but the problem with podcasts is overwhelmingly they're just takes, and they have to be hot takes. They're not the rigor. You know, I was making fun of Joe Rogan a little bit earlier. So Elon Musk is sitting there, says to him, you know, Social Security is a huge part of our future debt obligations and is a big part of our debt. And Rogan sits there and, like, kind of makes a guttural noise. And I'm thinking, who works for this guy? Who is. Why isn't somebody there to say to him, no, tell Elon, Social Security has nothing to do with the debt structure. It's not how it works. It's not part of that. I know the guy's a genius, Elon Musk, but geniuses sometimes have weak spots. This guy is wrong about so much basic civics. And see, on a podcast, he just lets Elon talk because he wants him to be provocative and to get clicks, but he's letting the guy run a line of bullshit.

[James Carville]

So in 1965, kind of year we go back to, which had Social Security, COLAs were normally expensive. The elderly poverty rate in 1965 was around 31%. Today, it's around 9. Now, you can say it cost us money, but you know what? Reducing the number of old people that go to that cola hunger is pretty good. We talk about NATO. The one thing we know before NATO, European nationalism did not work well for the first half of the 20th cent. Okay, NATO has been clumsy. It's been administratively heavy. It's cost us money. But you know what? No one's getting shot. Yep, same thing with Israel and Egypt. We paid a lot of money, but you know what? There's no one been shot on the Israeli Egyptian border. Sometimes the expenditure of money is way, way worth what we spend on it. And what we've done with Social Security in terms of eliminating elderly poverty in terms of. A lot of things have been a great societal and humane thing. It really has. I said before I got. There's a book called Jesus Wept, which is a Catholic. It's fascinating. Who wrote it worth reading. It's really. You should have that guy on your TV show, and he takes the history of the Church from the death of Pius xii, who get into that Right now and really walks you through it. It is just fascinating history and it's relevant to a lot.

[Chris Cuomo]

Hopefully it's not about Pope Francis dying. I'm saying that's not.

[James Carville]

He's gonna die. So that's.

[Chris Cuomo]

We're all gonna die. But I just feel like, I feel like I don't think we need that right now.

[James Carville]

Yeah, yeah, it'll get. It really puts Pope Francis in context, to say the least.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, you know, I got one of the blessings of being at a big organization. When I was at cnn, I went down to South America and spent time down there doing a documentary about Bergoglio, Pope Francis as cardinal, and talking to his friends and talking to the drug dealers that he made deals with down there, which was, of course controversial, but it was certainly the right thing to do. And what a fascinating guy, you know, Carol Voitia, John Paul second. I, I got to understand a little bit because I, I wound up being friends with someone who grew up with him. But you, you rarely get to understand a figure like that as a man. You know what I mean? And he's an interesting study.

[James Carville]

Yeah. Colonel O'Connor told him on his deathbed, wrote him a letter when he was dying, do not appoint Theodore McCarry to anything. And he laid out the case and unfortunately they appointed him anyway and it was not a good appointment.

[Chris Cuomo]

O'Connor was right about that.

[James Carville]

Yeah. And, you know, he was a guy, you know, who always was from Scranton, I think, and, you know. Yeah, yep, he was, he was spot on.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm being fair to that guy. You know, O'Connor's the guy who said my father should be excommunicated. Only time I ever saw him visibly at the point of tears about anything other than his children.

[James Carville]

There you go. Well, I, I certainly wouldn't want to excommunicate anybody, particularly your father. But before we go, I gotta tell you, my favorite thing is Orpheus, which is the crew that. This is how you use mockery. Which rose last night, Monday night. It was started by Harry Connick Jr. Yeah. And Queen this year was a drag queen. I couldn't get over that. That's the way you fight back. Okay. You make the queen of the best carnival parade. A drag queen.

[Chris Cuomo]

You know, it'll certainly get tails wagged. It'll get tongues wagging, that's for sure. Well, look, I hope you're right about what your party does because we certainly need it if we're going to be. If we're going to be burdened with this two party system. We do need one to be an active counterbalance to the equities of society against the other. So let's hope they step up and do their job.

[James Carville]

All right, man. Good talking to you, James.

[Chris Cuomo]

Thank you so much. Always a pleasure, man. One of my favorite things to do. Be well. I'll talk to you soon. Look, he is a man who knows what has made his party go up and go down. Is he right about the exigencies of the moment? That's up to you. That is up to you. Is he right about what the Democrats need to do? Well, that is a closer call, and I believe the answer is probably yes. But he laid it out pretty simply. Doesn't mean it's easy. And we are not seeing that from the bitch brigade of complainers that the Democrats have become right now. And it ain't getting them where they need to be. So will they change to be what James Carville says they have to be to avert a national crisis? We'll see. I'm Chris Cuomo. Thank you very much for subscribing and following here at the Chris Cuomo Project, bringing you provocative conversations, conversations as cure, analysis for your engagement, for your use. You tell me what's of value and more importantly, what is not. Thank you for checking me out at News Nation, 8p and 11p every weekday night. Wear your independence. Get your free agent gear. Show that you are not owned except by your own ideas and intentions, needs and wants. My brothers and sisters, the challenges are real. Let's get after it.