← The Chris Cuomo Project
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- [00:01]
Kara Swisher
Oh, such a clutch off season pickup, Dave.
- [00:03]
Chris Cuomo
I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those blackout motorized shades. Lines.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds.
- [00:10]
Kara Swisher
Hard to install.
- [00:11]
Chris Cuomo
No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some from my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and.
- [00:18]
Kara Swisher
Install hall of fame, son.
- [00:19]
Chris Cuomo
They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world.
- [00:22]
Kara Swisher
Blinds.com is the goat jotblinds.com right now. And get up to 40% off select styles plus a free professional measure. Rules and restrictions may apply.
- [00:30]
Chris Cuomo
What are we to make of all the tech bros around Trump? Is there really an oligarchy afoot? And is Elon part of some darker reality we have to deal with? Like, what's gonna happen with TikTok? I know someone who can answer all these questions in a way that surely I couldn't. You wanna know who? Great. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Kara Swisher, you know her from all her work on the technology community, the business, the culture, her work with Scott Galloway and their amazing podcast. She has unique insights to what Elon Musk is about, but more importantly, what he wants and what the other tech bros want and what TikTok is really about and what's most likely going to happen and like a dozen other things because this woman is D E E P deep. So a conversation about what matters from someone who's been studying these people for decades. Kara Swisher, thank you for joining me. I've missed you.
- [01:40]
Kara Swisher
Thank you. Now you have. Really. You think of me often.
- [01:44]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah. But I don't have to think about you because I'm a fan of you and Galloway, so.
- [01:47]
Kara Swisher
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.
- [01:49]
Chris Cuomo
And I've been. I've been watching you recently. What matters to you right now? Yeah. About the political. The political dynamic. What are you looking at? What are you looking for?
- [01:58]
Kara Swisher
It's a good question. You know, I just want people to understand who these people are and what they're doing and what's happening here. Having had a history of covering every single one of those people that was on display, and I'm using that term very clearly, display. They were like, you know, the glass menagerie kind of thing for Trump. I want people to understand how they got there and why they got there and what's happening among. In between them and what they actually. What I think they actually want. They might say differently, but I'm pretty sure I've got a good bead on what they're up to.
- [02:31]
Chris Cuomo
What's the headline?
- [02:32]
Kara Swisher
Well, it depends on the person. Right, everybody. I mean, one of the things that really occurred to me when Trump mentioned Mars in his speech, it was kind of a jumble of stuff in that speech. But Mars particularly is something Elon Musk has wanted to get to. And I went back to interviews that I'd forgotten that I had done in 2016 and 18 with Musk and recalling another one where he talked incessantly about getting to Mars. And in the first interview in 2016, he said something that was funny at the time where he said, I want to die on Mars, but just not on landing, which was a pretty famous quote for him at the time. And it was funny. But he really has this idea that we need to get to Mars for humanity's sake. And so a lot of people sort of try to guess what his motivation is, and some of it's malevolent. He's just kind of a jerk. But a lot of it has to do with getting to Mars. And what he's doing is getting Trump to back his greatest dream, which isn't money, which he has a lot of, which isn't power necessarily, but it's power to get to Mars. And so it was really very apparent to me to watch him react to that. I think that's been his goal the whole time. In a weird, strange way, the word.
- [03:46]
Chris Cuomo
That is being said now is oligarchy.
- [03:50]
Kara Swisher
Yes, and good word.
- [03:51]
Chris Cuomo
It's a little frustrating to me because the idea of corporate influencers and the gap.
- [03:57]
Kara Swisher
Not new and.
- [03:58]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah, but new term for it, I guess. Do you see it? Is it appropriate now?
- [04:03]
Kara Swisher
I think it is because it's. Because when you're talking about corporate interests, that's very different than wealthy people. Right? This is. These are like, you know, you can talk all you want about Jack Welch or the influence of Lockheed Martin, but they were, you know, pikers compared. They had what, 10, 20, 50 million? You know, if they had 100, they were incredibly wealthy. These people have $200 billion, 400. I mean, Elon Musk's wealth has doubled from 200 and some billion to 400 and some billion. So, yes, I would say oligarch works fine here because it's not just corporate. And then the companies themselves are trillion dollar, multi trillion dollar companies. And so I do think it's appropriate because of the enormous personal wealth each of these people have. And even someone that was standing there, like Sundar Pichai, who was the poorest One there has $1.3 billion. Right. Tim Cook is a few billion dollars and Zuckerberg 200 and some billion. Bezos 200 and some billion. Musk was in that range and now is in 400 billion. So it's just sitting there was a trillion dollars in wealth or close to a trillion dollars in wealth.
- [05:08]
Chris Cuomo
Is the problem the wealth or what it allows them to do to society?
- [05:13]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I mean, if I was that wealthy, I wouldn't be sitting there on the, on a cold, freezing cold diet with Donald Trump using me as a, as a, as a prop, as a TV prop. I would be. And I always joke I'd buy France and just be eating cheese like all day. Like, I don't know, you know, it's not the wealth, it's the power that it brings and the ability. In Musk's case, he's using him as these others probably wouldn't do this, but he's using him as a cudgel, fragile to people that get out of line, threatening primaries and things like that. That's the use of Musk right now because he's more than willing to spend and he kind of likes it. The others I doubt he could get to spend on his behalf against enemies. But with Musk, he's got his own personal ATM machine.
- [05:57]
Chris Cuomo
What's your biggest concern of what they want?
- [05:59]
Kara Swisher
Oh, well, they want more of what they have. Not everything, but not enough is the way I think about them in a lot of ways. I mean, they want no regulation. And I think a good interview to look at is the one that New York, the New York Times did with Andreessen Horowitz. They didn't push back on him in any way. Full of really wrong headed interpretations of history, which he does, he's done for years around me and everybody else. And you just sort of. They just sat there and typed it, essentially. But they want. No, they have an incredible victimization idea. And you saw that today when someone from Fox News was saying how Zuckerberg told him he didn't like being called an oligarch. Or when you saw Zuckerberg complaining on Joe Rogan that some Biden administration official wrote him a testy email. I mean, honestly, Chris, you've written me more testy texts than I can say. I'm back, back at you. But it's like they're so victimized for wealthy people and the minute you say a word about them, they, they melt or they're like papier mache or, you know, delicate flowers, whatever word you want.
- [07:01]
Chris Cuomo
To use Rogan is that way too. For a guy who loves the hurt game and is a great commentator of mma, he does not like anybody judging anything he says. But more importantly, unlike you and me, although you have a, A, a solid base of people who support you, he's got a lot of people who defend him because he is some kind of symbol for them.
- [07:26]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of sort of men of his type. I think it's, it's, it's. He has women fans. It's not true to be just men, but it's largely men. If you were probably, if you did a demographic study, it would be a men of a certain age. Right. Just. I don't like being told what to do anymore. And the fact of the matter is they basically got to tell everybody what to do for centuries. And then for five seconds, they couldn't call someone the R word or the N word or the, oh, no, we can't do that. We can't call, you know, we can't say boobs over and over again without getting slapped. You know, and I think they get, they're like, we want to say what we want to say. You know, it's, it's a very, it's a really, you know, again, for 27 minutes, they don't get to say what they want to say. And therefore someone just told me, you know, Sheryl Sandberg had lean in. We forgot that men slap back. Right. Or hit back or something. Whatever metaphor you want to use. I don't love using violent ones, but that's what's happening. So, yeah, I mean, I think these people cannot take criticism. They, they just can't. It's really laughable. Again, if I was this rich, I wouldn't care what people thought of me. Like, what do. I don't right now. But they definitely have a victim complex.
- [08:36]
Chris Cuomo
Do you caution people who want to oppose what's happening to pick their spots? Do you have any concern over the Musk salute thing that's all over the place and having people in high dudgeon?
- [08:49]
Kara Swisher
I'll tell you, I think we can't react to everything they do. In Musk's case, I think he knew just what he was doing. He likes to troll people. He does it all the time. And everyone. It's kind of like with Trump, you know, you'd get. And I get why people are upset by it, because it's upsetting and it does have real world implications because many years ago when he was attacking the press Over Tesla. He used to always relentlessly attack. And I wrote him and I said, can you just lay off a little bit? They have their criticism of your Tesla and just live with it. And he goes, I will not live with it. And I go, well, your fans are kind of really crazy, some of them, right? And they have violent words. And he said, I'm not responsible for my fans. And I go, you kind of are. You kind of are depending on what you do. And so if I was someone in that level of fame, I would be very careful that I don't do something that looks like that. And I think everyone's like, oh, he is on the spectrum. You know, I have a lot of relatives on the spectrum. I've covered people on the spectrum. I've never seen that happen. Like, they don't. It's an insult to people on the spectrum to say they can't control their arms in some fashion. I think he knew just what he was doing. He likes to troll people. I don't necessarily think it was anti Semitic, but it certainly was obnoxious. And I think he knew full well what it symbolized. I suspect he did. He'll say he does, and he'll make. My heart is going out to. You know that. And in that way, you know, I kind of. The joke I made. And I think the best way to deal with them is to mock them in some fashion. I said, you know, when Rolf was doing that hand signal and the Sound of Music, his heart was just going out to the von Trapp family, like, give me a fuck. Give me a fucking break. He knew what he was doing.
- [10:28]
Chris Cuomo
I think you got a.
- [10:29]
Kara Swisher
He said it was a Roman salute, right? Yes. Well, a Roman salute is what the Nazis copy. You know that. That's. So. It's kind of the same thing.
- [10:37]
Chris Cuomo
I. I don't. Look, I think it was probably an extension of the. My heart goes out. Who knows? But my concern is, if you go all in all on that, you miss what his father's saying. And I know that maybe they're estranged or whatever, but this Errol Musk, who I'm sure you've come across, I've encountered that's problematic for Trump. I have to tell you, his people, even over the course of the last few days surrounding the inauguration, they don't like the Nazi stuff. They do not like.
- [11:08]
Kara Swisher
I bet they don't.
- [11:09]
Chris Cuomo
Musk put them in this position. They think it's stupid. And I'll tell you what, it sounds like it has the same ring of the text that I had returned after Ramaswamy's thing that he put out after Christmas, the same thing like that. We don't need anybody around us who does. And then I, I would fill in the blank for them. What Trump does already, is that what it is?
- [11:31]
Kara Swisher
Well, no, Trump can do it.
- [11:33]
Chris Cuomo
That's right.
- [11:33]
Kara Swisher
Trump can do it and Trump can do it. It's not like people always want fair. Fair. There's no fair here. He get away with stuff that other people don't get.
- [11:41]
Chris Cuomo
Absolutely.
- [11:42]
Kara Swisher
That's just the way it is. And I know, you know, sometimes on the left, I. They're always like, can you believe it? I'm like, I believe it. And they're like, can you believe it? I'm like, I believe it. He's done it three times. Like, let's stop not believing that he won't do it. And in some ways, it's sort of built into the way you look at him. And believe me, I don't like it. It's bullying, it's mean, it's casually cruel. It's just cruel in ways that I find. You shouldn't treat people like that. That's me. Right. I can't. Obviously he had parental issues. That's an obvious thing you can look at there. But in Musk's case, Musk is not the show. And one person in the Trump people said, said to me, said to Maggie Haberman, who then told it to me in an interview I just did, was, Trump is a one ring circus. There's not two rings, there's not two ring masters. And I think even though the only thing that's keeping Musk there at this point is the money and the popular, you know what I mean? Like, he can use him still as a prop and then draw in. He managed to draw in the other props because of Musk, because they were like, hey, well, the getting's good. And so he's useful still. But look, Ramaswamy's out. Like, out if you don't like. And it was interesting because a lot of people like because he's brown person and Musk is white. I'm like, no, if Ramaswamy had $400 billion, he'd be sitting right there and Musk would be on his keystone.
- [13:06]
Chris Cuomo
They have a weird. I guess the right word would be perverse irony that they act within, which is, we know that this is what Trump does. That's different. You can't be like that around him.
- [13:23]
Kara Swisher
That's correct.
- [13:23]
Chris Cuomo
You take away attention and that, you know, whatever. The logic doesn't work for me. But it still is true. And in watching what has happened in this immediate flush, you have to believe that the first couple few weeks of Trumpdom is gonna be him pleasing the MAGA folk. And I know that I am not among the smartest people in our business. So if that's so obvious to me, I don't understand why, once again, we see so many jumping at every single thing.
- [14:01]
Kara Swisher
I get it. It's the flood. The zone thing Bannon really did. Bannon clocks a lot of stuff. Terrible, heinous person. But he certainly clocks it correctly, is that you flood the zone, and with so much shit and so much serious stuff, you can't tell one from the other, so you're just, like, overwhelmed. And then what do you hit at? It's like, I'm not a sports person, but I suppose it's like throwing a million baseballs at someone, right? Which one do you hit? And then it always hits you. In there, though there are some really, like, I think letting those all. Even J.D. vance was caught unaware because he letting people with criminal, violent records out was really disturbing. That was, to me, I get it, like, years ago. I mean, people don't remember this, but during the Whiskey Rebellion, George Washington let a lot of people off for their rebellion and violence because he's like, we all have to just move on. And even though a lot of people were saying, no, these people must be hung or whatever, he just was like, I get it, but move on. And so some of the non. Some of the nonviolent people, terrible people, they shouldn't have done that. They probably should go to jail. But in the interest of moving forward, we probably have to let the nine ones go. People aren't gonna like me saying that, but it's just. There's no way to move forward without it. The violent ones should stay in jail. Period. End of story. The ones who assaulted police officers, who planned things, who Stuart Rhodes is, and the Enrique Torres, like, come on. And that, to me, was, even though it's a lot of slop and nothing burgers that he was throwing, that one was really dangerous. As far as he's building his own private militia. From what I mean, in that regard.
- [15:36]
Chris Cuomo
That is what is said my feeling. Look, maybe I'm just jaded, or maybe I don't see it as serious enough and I'll wind up being proven wrong. But my instinct is I'm waiting for what he does. And now some will say, well, that is what he does. No, that's a posture. And he promised it. And I have to tell you, the pardon power is one of the stupidest.
- [16:01]
Kara Swisher
Things in the Constitution, including the Biden stuff. It's a race to the bottom.
- [16:05]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah. And I don't know why they invest. Well, I do know why. When you read the convention history, they were just used to a monarchy and they had a hard time forgetting all those things. And it was familiar, so they put it in there and we don't need it. And it's always abused. But my concern is there are gonna be opportunities. He's not talking about healthcare or prices for a reason. He's talking about.
- [16:31]
Kara Swisher
Did you notice that?
- [16:32]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah. He's talking about those things the way he is for a reason, which is pump, pump, pump. That's a good thing. I'll be able to show I'm doing it. He is going to introduce this country, I promise you this, to the concept of the world market of gasoline that people like you have been talking about for years when they talk about gas prices. And he's gonna say, you know, turns out this OPEC and Russia, and they're all against us, and I would have had the prices here, we'd have like a dollar of gas, a dollar a gallon. But they're, they're killing me. So I did what I was supposed to do that Biden wouldn't do, but they're now screwing me. He's gonna introduce the world market out of an article of convenience. So if you wait, you hold your fire, you're gonna have opportunities to say the prices are still high.
- [17:21]
Kara Swisher
That's correct.
- [17:21]
Chris Cuomo
And you didn't do it. And healthcare, you said you were gonna get rid of the aca, you can't. But you haven't fixed it. And my caution on that to Democrats is you better work with them on immigration reform, otherwise they're gonna take the win and that'll beat you in the midterms again. So if you wanna get to a better place for the country, work with them on immigration reform and hold your fire. What Trump says is almost meaningless, even as president.
- [17:47]
Kara Swisher
Well, you know, it's interesting, the feeling I got with a lot of these executive orders and everyone's like, oh, no, look at him. I'm like, these seem weak, actually, like the TikTok one. He can't do anything. The birthright citizen, it's going to be overturned. I'm sorry, it just is, I think, you know, and we should have a debate about these kind of things. Of course we should reform things after decades. And I'm for, I'm happen to be for that but we should have a debate. People who aren't right. And there's certainly a legitimate argument to be made on all these. And some of these things, not all of them, but a lot of them felt like, wow, there's a whole lot of nothing burger there, which he does a lot. Whether it's a Bible or like a steak or a university. It's sort of this like the TikTok thing, which of course I would pay more attention to is literally all I have to look at is Apple. You can't download TikTok. They're not. They don't take them seriously. They don't think there's a deal. And so he has like, in that regard, he has three choices to change the law. Right? Because right now Apple and Google are paying attention to Congress and the Supreme Court, who they consider the power. Right? There's a law, they're gonna follow it. They don't think Trump can protect them, nor do they trust him. And therefore it doesn't matter. He can't protect them. It doesn't matter if they trust him or not. And they will have huge fines. Amazon and Oracle have exposed themselves quite a bit financially and it has a five year thing. So if there's another president in a couple of years, it's disastrous for a corporation to have to make decisions based on this system. So he can't do anything there. So he's either got to get Congress to pass a new law that's opposite to this law, which is really bad. Right? It's that he's going to be look like a China toady. He's going to force China into doing it, doing a deal. They're not doing that. They've got us over a barrel. We look like, as Scott says, non serious people. And then the other thing is use what I call the Elon feint, which is sell it to someone who's friendly to China and make it look like our national security is protected when it is not right. When you sell it to a friendly person to China, but you don't really sell it and they continue to have control over it. Every choice Trump has here is bad. And that executive order exposed every bit of it.
- [19:58]
Chris Cuomo
The hypocrisy of the executive orders for his people is that they talk about going back to the Constitution. So you want to go back to the Constitution and you like that. He just signed an order that flouts the checks and balances of the Constitution. And birthright citizenship is in the 14th amendment.
- [20:17]
Kara Swisher
It really is.
- [20:18]
Chris Cuomo
And I will give you that there are people who believe the amendments don't count as much as the seven articles because they were add ons. And as ludicrous as that is, to me as a lawyer, I get that you think that. But if you care about the Constitution, you can't have a president who thinks he can sign a piece of paper and change it because that's not the process. So there's hypocrisy. I get it. There always is. It's just a little bit more.
- [20:44]
Kara Swisher
The other part of the TikTok thing is guess who had an executive order.
- [20:47]
Chris Cuomo
To ban TikTok in 2020?
- [20:49]
Kara Swisher
Donald Trump. Honestly. And I actually agreed with him on those on the, on the national security issues. He was, he was right on that.
- [20:57]
Chris Cuomo
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- [24:56]
Kara Swisher
79 senators, so 300 so much.
- [24:59]
Chris Cuomo
It was like 85 to 11 in the Senate and whatever it was in the House, everyone I talk to, they say, yeah, they took me in the skiff and they showed me, yeah, the Chinese are doing this. I said this, I said in a way that they're not doing it on the other platforms. Well, I don't know, they didn't talk to us about it with that. And nothing that you can share with people. No, can't share it. When have we ever had a regulation like this that does affect First Amendment rights that is said to not affect them. And no debate over it. And everybody in government agrees. What am I missing about this?
- [25:39]
Kara Swisher
You're not missing anything, actually. Oddly enough, you're in sync with aoc, who made a very good point about this. She goes, what I saw wasn't substantive enough to make me want to override the First Amendment. And that's why she voted against it. She goes, I would have been happy if they had shown me real proof. And I would have, of course, voted for it, but I couldn't because they didn't show me anything. That was one. The second thing is, why wasn't there a big, larger bill that, that dealt with all these foreign interference issues across all the platforms? Because those platforms didn't want their American platforms. They didn't want them to happen. Because these people are so like, as you could see, guess who was sitting in the front row. That's why they were sitting in the front row, because they got to get out of it. All those. Everyone there had one of those elements, right? Whether it's Google or Apple or Facebook or Meta. So, yes, I agree with you. There wasn't enough proof. But I have a different point of view. I had wrote a piece about this many six, seven years ago saying, I love TikTok. I think it's great. I use it on a burner phone because I just don't trust the Chinese and not because I had proof. I just was like, well, if we were in there, what would we do? We would influence. We would possibly spy. We would definitely try to influence. And so that we don't know what they could do is enough for me, like, that they have the access to that and we don't let them have it anywhere else in any media. So. And we don't let them have it with phones or chips or you know what I mean? We do it everywhere else, so why not here? That to me, you know, I don't really need proof that they can do it. And they're so interwoven into. They have so much spyware within our cyber attacks on all our systems, our infrastructure. Of course they're going to avail themselves to that. It just makes sense.
- [27:26]
Chris Cuomo
So I get it. I get it. I just feel like I'm not more worried about China than I am about Zuckerberg and Musk and these guys, because I feel they do it too. Thank you. If we're worried about oligarchs, then I don't know why they get a pass on this. And I don't understand why there's been no discussion of the user, even by the Supreme Court there was no show of proof. Gorsuch in his concurrence says, I'm glad we didn't look at that classified stuff cuz it wasn't shown to the petitioner. So then this was based on government saying trust.
- [28:05]
Kara Swisher
Agreed, agreed. And who knows?
- [28:07]
Chris Cuomo
And nobody talks about the 170 million people and the 7 million businesses, the 23 billion in transactions of all the.
- [28:12]
Kara Swisher
Things here that's problematic. It's the creators creating entrepreneurial things on this platform. And to me they're the only people that really got screwed in the, you know, TikTok is owned by wealthy people, wealthy Americans by the way, it's 15% is Jeff Yass. There's all these American venture capital firms, I mean it's largely US owned, which is really weird to think about, but it's a Chinese company. I would say, I guess you're right, that they're the same, but they're not the same. And Mark Zuckerberg, an interview with me in 2019, it was pretty disastrous interview because he was talking about holocaust deniers deserve their voice too kind of thing. And he got in a bit of trouble for that. But in that interview he and I had an exchange about China. And what Mark was essentially arguing was Kara is Xi or me. Like that was the, you know, it was like us or them. And I was like, I don't like any of you. Like I gotta say I like him less, but I don't like you that much either. And I think you're an information thief, you know what I mean? So you're using it to sell me shitty products. They're using it to surveil and dominate because we're dominating on the world military. You know, it's their way of like, you know, fucking with us from a military perspective. And I was sort of like, God, what a choice, you know, shall I have, you know, I don't know, a shitty food I don't like or a shitty food I don't like. Like that kind of thing. And so he was, he was, that was his, that's always been silicon. But we have to be the national heroes, right? And then the minute they can do a deal with China, they do it like they would, they'd sell your, you know.
- [29:49]
Chris Cuomo
Well, of course China has none of these platforms there because of course they like to control, but it also is, you know, like many other things. But you know, remember our parents, how worried they were about television. I mean the social media is so much more corrosive than Television could ever be on its worst day. Totally. The booktube and I agree. Yeah, right. It's heating your brain. I think Governor Murphy, I know it sounds like nanny state, but I think he's right to back banning the phones in schools. We did it in our school in Sag harbor, the public school there. And I'm telling you, I mean, my daughter can say whatever she wants. Everybody I know in that school who's on the teaching side is like, it's made our job so much easier.
- [30:34]
Kara Swisher
What do they do? They do the. You know, I just interviewed today on the podcast and it's up right now. The yonder CEO, which are those pouches. Yeah, that's one solution is physically yonder pouches.
- [30:44]
Chris Cuomo
They're really easy to break.
- [30:47]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I know they are. But that's okay. If you get caught with the. It's the whole idea of you can't have fucking bones in this.
- [30:52]
Chris Cuomo
That's right. And that's what our principle does, is that, yeah, you can break the pouch as soon as I catch you. This is a punishment you're not gonna like. And all the parents, you know, some of the parents, I couldn't believe parents were against it. Well, I can't get in touch with my kid. I was like, go to the front office.
- [31:05]
Kara Swisher
That's right, go to the front office.
- [31:06]
Chris Cuomo
Like we did. It was okay. I never got lucky.
- [31:09]
Kara Swisher
This is what the CEO was talking about. He goes, it's called the front office. And you do not. You know, you could also give your kid a flip phone, but offer that to a kid. They don't want it.
- [31:16]
Chris Cuomo
They don't want it.
- [31:17]
Kara Swisher
You could give them an Apple Watch, by the way. You can reach them on an Apple Watch. You can give them any manner of devices that you can reach them. I don't know why you need to reach your kids.
- [31:26]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah, I don't care.
- [31:27]
Kara Swisher
I'm someone who my kids call me more than I call them. And they're like, why don't you call me? I'm like, I'm busy. Like, aren't you busy? Aren't you in college having a good time? But I would. Scott and I, as you know, think that. That kids should not be on social media till 16. And recently I've just done an interview. Someone you should have on is the mother of the kid for character AI who killed himself and the character, this.
- [31:51]
Chris Cuomo
AI Boss, you gave me the idea and I did it.
- [31:54]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, good. Because really disturbing, like disturbing like that these characters, it's not user generated content. It's something else that is really dangerous.
- [32:02]
Chris Cuomo
No. And he fell in love with this AI thing and he killed himself.
- [32:06]
Kara Swisher
Why wouldn't you. Why wouldn't you like someone who never pushed back?
- [32:08]
Chris Cuomo
And of course a big reason that that didn't resonate. And I know I'm not supposed to say this, but the kid's brown. And if it were a white kid, and it will be.
- [32:19]
Kara Swisher
Unfortunately, there's several cases right now. There was a kid on the spectrum who the bot advised them basically to kill your parents. That didn't come off. Well, if you want to use me more, you better do things to these bots. But by the way, these bots are only reflecting ourselves back at us. But it's still that the fact that this didn't alert the company, who then would alert the parents? Who. The fact that they're able to market to kids with cartoon characters. What does it remind you of? Cigarette company.
- [32:48]
Chris Cuomo
That's right.
- [32:49]
Kara Swisher
Remember Joe Camel?
- [32:50]
Chris Cuomo
Sure, Joe Camel with the penis nose.
- [32:52]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, the penis nose.
- [32:53]
Chris Cuomo
Which I never really understood why you had to have that anyway.
- [32:56]
Kara Swisher
Really? You never understood?
- [32:58]
Chris Cuomo
I didn't get it at the time because I liked Camel Lights and I wasn't. Once I saw the penis nose, I was like, did you smoke?
- [33:05]
Kara Swisher
I never smoked.
- [33:06]
Chris Cuomo
I loved Camel Lights. I love cigars. I'm no longer a. I never, never really liked cigarettes. I liked the habit, but I never tolerated it. Well, not that anyone thrives on cigarettes, but I didn't get the rush. It didn't help me. I was just. It just made it harder for me to breathe. So I got it.
- [33:22]
Kara Swisher
I looked cool with the cigar.
- [33:24]
Chris Cuomo
That's exactly right. Cigars I love. That's different. I don't inhale them because I'm not a Cuban woman. The idea with show. Why isn't the simple solution that he reincorporates in America? And why isn't that what happened with.
- [33:38]
Kara Swisher
TikTok or with who? With TikTok. Well, because it's a Chinese owned company. Like it's. Why didn't like any Chinese company reincorporate here?
- [33:45]
Chris Cuomo
But he is obviously invested in being here and moving things here. Why can't he just.
- [33:51]
Kara Swisher
The ByteDance CEO?
- [33:52]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah, why can't he just dissolve?
- [33:53]
Kara Swisher
He's a Chinese national. He's a Chinese national.
- [33:56]
Chris Cuomo
Right. But they allowed Murdoch to get his citizenship in like six years.
- [34:00]
Kara Swisher
I don't think this guy wants his citizenship, you know. You know the same thing with Jack Ma, which was really interesting is they, you know, Jack Ma, amazing entrepreneur in China, like they just disappeared him for a while, right? Like, they just like, can you imagine, like, disappearing Jeff Bezos for a while? I mean, people are like, oh, that's normal. I'm like, no, no, no. What if we just put Jeff Bezos. Well, he likes to be on the Insta. Insta. He likes to be on the socials a lot these days, showing off his pecs, but whatever. Good for him. But, you know, I think it's. I think you don't understand the level of control, whether it's. It's control, it's the ability to control. And this country is a surveillance economy. We are a surveillance economy in a different way. And certainly the government's been caught spying on citizens, too. Whatever you think of Edward Snowden, that was pretty devastating, what the government was doing. And, you know, I always assume the government's spying on some level, but not in the conspiracy state, deep state kind of way. I think they just. They have the information. It's too good not to go after, and it's, you know, it's convenient to do so. But I don't know. They're not going to make it a US company. Mark Cuban, as usual, said the smartest thing to me about this, which was, Kara, they're never going to. At the beginning of this, he said, they're never going to give this up because once we get a hold of that algorithm, we can see what they've done, right? It'll be clear if they were spying or not. So if they were, we'll know by doing it. So nothing's happened, because what they want to do now is buy it without the algorithm. Some of the deals like. But then it's just a brand. It's not the same thing.
- [35:37]
Chris Cuomo
So what happens with TikTok? Do you think Kevin O'Leary buys it or something like that?
- [35:42]
Kara Swisher
Come on. Kevin O'Leary, he's not serious.
- [35:45]
Chris Cuomo
He was getting a lot of run at the inauguration weekend in terms of. That's what's gonna happen.
- [35:49]
Kara Swisher
I love that he talks about it, but there's no way it's not happening. I mean, I think there'll be some. I don't know, it just depends on the Chinese. I think there'll be some fake deal that he. That Trump will wave his hands around, sort of hand out the bennies to his friends, like Oracle. He already did that in the first time. Oracle was handling the back end. Probably Musk will be involved in some fashion because it dovetails really nicely into his AI stuff. It would be very powerful for his AI stuff to get.
- [36:17]
Chris Cuomo
Can you have him control two of the three biggest platforms, be best friends.
- [36:23]
Kara Swisher
With Trump, and as a White House pass, sure, why not? I mean, this is transparent corruption that's happening. I mean, talk about the. The meme, the coins. That's like transparent corruption is. All it is, is that you don't have to buy a hotel room at Trump Tower anymore or go to his stupid golf courses. You just buy some of that coin and show them who's your friend. And so, yeah, I think it could happen. I think it'll be hard for people like Mike Johnson or anybody else or any of the. He controls the sec, controls the Justice Department. It'll be interesting. They have someone at the Justice Department, Gail Slater, who is great, has very well respected as an antitrust person. They might. All they have to do is point to Facebook and say, we have competitors. Like, you know, there's Snapchat, Facebook, Instagram, which is also Facebook. But, you know, I think they probably could make an argument that it's fine. I don't think the Chinese are gonna. I don't know, they'll make some fake hand wavy deal, but it's not gonna be Kevin O'Leary. It'll be more Elon Musk and possibly moving it into the Twitter AI universe.
- [37:27]
Chris Cuomo
So does that mean that TikTok stays.
- [37:30]
Kara Swisher
Not as it is? Because they're not going to let the algorithm go with it. The Chinese will not let the algorithm. They'll have to recreate an algorithm in some way. So you'll get the Twitter algorithm, I guess, which is what I call a Nazi porn bar at this point, but, you know, you'll get whatever algorithm they choose to put on.
- [37:46]
Chris Cuomo
You do believe Twitter has changed, right?
- [37:48]
Kara Swisher
Oh, yes. I never was called names on the.
- [37:52]
Chris Cuomo
Oh, all right, good, good. So what do you think? Not that you're being called names that I don't like unless it's me, but what do you think changed on Twitter? Do you think they lost a lot of people replaced with other people?
- [38:02]
Kara Swisher
Oh, yeah, but the numbers are clear. The numbers are clear. What do we have? Who knows? Because it's a private company. He could be making it up, and he's not the most genuous people around. You know, I think obviously the numbers are down. People are moving to blue sky and threads and things. Lots of. I think social media is dissipating in a way that's really interesting, but I don't. I think he just. He games the algorithm. It's been well reported to focus on him, to focus on the people he wants to Boost such as white supremacists and other cagey characters.
- [38:34]
Chris Cuomo
Do you think he can also make you get less reach? If he can make you get more reach, sure, yeah.
- [38:38]
Kara Swisher
I mean, everything.
- [38:39]
Chris Cuomo
I could be totally paranoid, but I've never had accounts go down okay, right. And now and again, I don't really. It doesn't matter to ME if it's 1 million, 2 million, it doesn't really matter. You know, most of what I do isn't clickbait.
- [38:51]
Kara Swisher
I don't use it. It's not useful.
- [38:53]
Chris Cuomo
I'm okay with it. But I notice, like, Piers Morgan. So I went back and I looked and he gets good traffic, right? They like him right now. He's really ingratiated himself. He's very smart that way, Piers. And I don't even mean to ascribe any animus. I'm just saying he's savvy. So he puts out this thing saying that salute was nowhere near what people are saying it was. And that thing has gotten millions of views, of course.
- [39:19]
Kara Swisher
Because everyone wants to hear what Piers Morgan thinks on that topic. That' no, it's ridiculous. I mean, it's just. He does whatever he wants. He gamed it for himself, I find. Listen, Twitter was useless before as a marketing vehicle, and now it's completely useless. Like, I never thought it was very good. We used to have. Our sites would always do better on LinkedIn or YouTube or Google search, but Twitter was never. It was just more of a vanity thing. It was fun and interesting and now I don't like being called names all day and it's not useful to me, so. And it makes me feel bad. Why should it doesn't help me. That would be the only reason to use it, right? Or help sell my podcast. And I do think it's gotten, you know, it's become. It's just not a good product. And one of the things Elon said very early was if you're on it for an hour and you feel bad, you shouldn't use it. And I'm like, yeah, that sounds about right. I just don't think it's a good product anymore. And everything comes down to product, Chris. Like, it has to be a product you like. Like whether it's a table show or whether it's a TV show or anything that you're making in media has to be something people like, like, like to consume or hate consume. But it's not even a good hate consumption device anymore because there's all these randoms that are just yelling at you, you know, in my case, it's. It's very unhappy men, but that's fine. Like, let them yell at someone else. I don't. They don't need to yell at me.
- [40:37]
Chris Cuomo
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- [43:37]
Kara Swisher
He does well. He's sort of the Joe Rogan of the left. He's sort of the Joe Rogan, except.
- [43:40]
Chris Cuomo
That Joe Rogan is. Wow, Carrie. Yeah, I never thought of that. Wow. Yeah. You know, Yeah. I think that. I think that I will try. I think the dye can cure cancer.
- [43:51]
Kara Swisher
Sure, Whatever you say. That's what I told the Harris people. Go on there and have her touch his arm just once or twice. That's right. And then he'll be like, I love you because you paid attention to me and they didn't do it.
- [44:02]
Chris Cuomo
So other than him. And again, it's not right, left, other than those podcasts, I obviously, I believe in podcasts. I'm here and it's all my money. But these guys on the right, I believe, are going to be replaced by better talent, I think like that. And Adam Carolla will have a resurgence. You know, he's one of the oldest. But Bill Burr and these kinds of guys are going to come in.
- [44:25]
Kara Swisher
He's not anything that's not right.
- [44:27]
Chris Cuomo
But I'm saying, like, that space of, hey, you want to be angry about something, you want to be pissed off about what's going on?
- [44:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, he's great.
- [44:33]
Chris Cuomo
Let a pro take you through it. Instead of, like, you know, Tim Pool or, you know, whoever he is. And. But here's my question for you. So I get legacy media for him. For a guy with a ski cap on and a big microphone, that's the size of his head, I get why he wants you to believe. And getting money is meaningless. That's right. From the Russians.
- [44:53]
Kara Swisher
Russians, yeah.
- [44:54]
Chris Cuomo
The idea of what you just said, though, that social media is dissipating. I just heard that from one of the guys at the Wall Street Journal that. Yeah, it's not us. We know who the legacy. We know who the Wall Street Journal is. I'm not going to split into three things. He's like, but all of social media is splintering and there's stratification on their end, not on what they're calling the legacy end. CNN is cnn. Maybe it gets sold. It's still cnn, right? What does that mean? Like, what does that look like? What's happening on the social media side?
- [45:26]
Kara Swisher
I kind of have a counter argument and I kind of sort of in Barry Diller's camp on this. Like, you can't have a worldwide network of information and not figure out a way to sell it to people. Like, I think right now the costs are out of line. Say cnn, where you used to work. The costs are out of line with the revenue. That's all. It's like, so let's get them into line and let's make. And then they're not making products that are differentiated enough. Right. Like they're all the same. All the same product. And I think people get bored. Now, it only works at Fox News because they have an audience, which is a diminishing audience, by the way, of old people. So they, they have a captive audience in that. And they, you know, it's sort of like being what would be an old person's. It's like the Depends. They have the Depends market all sewed up. Okay, great. That's doesn't, that doesn't mean you're about the future. And so when I got into podcasting, I really think I did see, I do see a lot of things. Where we did, I did my blogs before, everybody did these. Everyone now has the blog and the podcast. We did that 10 years ago because I thought, how can you create businesses where costs are in line with revenues? And so my podcast has three producers. That's it. It doesn't cost that much. And if you look at. Which was really interesting. Scott does this all the time. He sends me in every week. If you look at, say, news commentary lists, we're solid. Number five globally. And all around us are right wing people. We're always right. We're like, we're the little. I wouldn't say we're blue. I think we're bluish. You never know where Scott's going to go. But if you make a great. I just stick with this. If you make a great product and people feel good about consuming it, and I don't mean feel good, I mean they feel smarter. They feel they've gotten some insight. Even if they don't agree with you, they're like, that was a fair, accurate assessment of what I know. And I didn't know that And I'm learning something here. I think you do well, period, period. And I think you're right. There's all these sort of, you know, randos that are doing stuff that are just noisy and I just think their product is boring.
- [47:19]
Chris Cuomo
And I think eventually engagement which requires an independent type critical thinker who's not looking to be co opted. They are in the enragement business which works, which works, which does work. But it seems to me that it's more fleeting, you know, so many of them are low ranked comedians, you know what I mean?
- [47:39]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, there's a lot of them, some.
- [47:40]
Chris Cuomo
Of them are good comedians. I love comedians. I think that they're some of the most articulate people in the society. But, but I don't think it's a coincidence that these guys are popping up on that side who are really just young men who are pissed off.
- [47:55]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [47:55]
Chris Cuomo
And I feel like they're the ones who are gonna get splintered off, you know, cause that's such an easy market to enter.
- [48:01]
Kara Swisher
I would agree cuz they're copying each other. That's the other thing is everyone's rushing to the contrarian side. Let's be contrary, let's like and tell you what's wrong with everything. I'm like what's right? Why don't you talk to us about how to fix it? Why don't you talk to us? I think the best thing for the Democrats is to start talking about what's right and what we can fix and what do you need? Like that kind of thing. And I think one of the, one of the issues is that Democrats are talking about doom and gloom. Let's start like since they're all rushing to tell the deep state doesn't work, your government doesn't work. Everybody knows this economy is one of the best economies in the entire friggin world. Start talking about that, start thinking about hope it works just as good.
- [48:36]
Chris Cuomo
You know who's going to start talking about it?
- [48:37]
Kara Swisher
Who? Chief Buttigieg. No.
- [48:40]
Chris Cuomo
Trump is going to say look how.
- [48:41]
Kara Swisher
Good the economy is now and he's.
- [48:43]
Chris Cuomo
Going to own the trend. And I say shame on the Democrats for not making the case.
- [48:48]
Kara Swisher
I would agree. But you know, I think one of the things that's really important to make any product is you make a product that people value and want to pay for. It's just like so like if you make shitty potato chips, everyone knows they're shitty and they want to eat them. Like I just don't know why it's so hard for me to get that and then put cost, you know, even at all the cable networks, you know, as you know you all made a lot of money as anchors, right? So at one point I was talking to one of the anchors at one of them, it wasn't cnn. And I said, what are you doing to earn your $5 million? Like I don't see $5 million in revenue attached to you. And then it has to be 10 because of your staff and everything else, like to market you. So I don't, definitely don't see. I see maybe a million here, but I don't even understand. Everything I do is linked to revenue. Like, I know if I do this, this happens and then you can make better products. It's like, I know I hate to talk about news like a product, but. And then it has to be trustworthy so people believe you and you have to be right. Like when I was right about like what happened with TikTok, everyone's like, she was right. And I'm like, yes, because I spent 30 years covering this. I know these people, I know the moves they're going to make. And I do reporting. And I think same thing with columns in newspapers. Like, I'm so sick of columnists that don't do reporting. Like do some reporting and then come to a conclusion. I may not agree with your conclusion, but I know you went out and talked to people and tried very hard to get it right and then you can have a really great discussion on the edges. Like last thing I say is I was on a Piers Morgan show with one of these comics and he just didn't know what he was talking about. And he just was like, just mad, mad, mad all the time. Like that kind. And I have three sons. I know about this. I know these people. Like, I like. And by the way, my sons wouldn't behave like this. Like this is a grown man like whining, like a. Just whining his ass off. And I started explaining to him, actually I'm like, no, actually this. No actually this. And I said, I really, this is exhausting having to school you on information that you can look up on Google like or anywhere else. And I was talking, he goes, you're over talking. He goes, you're talking over me? I'm like, oh, I'm sorry honey. And I called him honey. I said, I'm so sorry honey. Did I over talk you? I'm sorry, you're not very smart is the thing, but you're getting by on looks. And he just thought like, he was like, he's like, how dare you objectify me? I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, I shouldn't because you're not that good looking. And I just kept going. And it was like, they can't. They can dish it out, but they cannot take it. And they don't expect it from someone who's more liberal, right?
- [51:16]
Chris Cuomo
Like that.
- [51:17]
Kara Swisher
They don't.
- [51:17]
Chris Cuomo
Well, they don't. The reason they can't take it matters. And I don't know what to do about this. You know, one of the things, and I agree with you, and it bothers me because I'm not good at it. It being. I always say I ask questions for a living. I'm not in the solutions business. When people ask me, well, what should we do about it? I don't know. I mean, if I knew that's what I would be talking about. I just know that it shouldn't be talked about the way you're talking about it. Otherwise it'll never be solved. But I know why they feign outrage and offense, umbrage. Here's why. That is the currency in digital media for motivating revolt. They have to be victimized. You have done me dirty. You are part of the establishment, the elite, what we used to call in classical literature the oppressor. You are the oppressor. You've oppressed me. And, you know, you check several of those boxes for these guys. So they have to be so the.
- [52:23]
Kara Swisher
I don't know when I oppress them.
- [52:25]
Chris Cuomo
So. No, no, no, I'm not saying that you oppress them. I'm saying you check the boxes of who they want to say oppress them.
- [52:30]
Kara Swisher
Yes, that's correct.
- [52:32]
Chris Cuomo
Here's the paradox. I thought you were a tough guy.
- [52:35]
Kara Swisher
That's right.
- [52:35]
Chris Cuomo
I thought you were saying that you're gonna kick my ass. I mean, they say I get it all the time until I'm in person. And here's the difference between men and women. I say this to my daughters all the time.
- [52:44]
Kara Swisher
Threaten that to you.
- [52:45]
Chris Cuomo
If a woman. If a woman is upset at me about something, they walk right up to my big nose and light me up.
- [52:53]
Kara Swisher
They do.
- [52:54]
Chris Cuomo
There's never any question about my stature because they're figuring I'm a human being and a male. So it's not like I'm gonna see them like another guy, you know, who's walking. They'll walk up and be like, when you said this, I didn't like it. And you should know 100%. Men, I'm telling you, car men, 90% of the time, they look at me and they say the same thing. You're bigger than I thought you were.
- [53:18]
Kara Swisher
Oh.
- [53:18]
Chris Cuomo
As if they've somehow been deceived. Like, shit. I didn't know that this was what I was gonna have to beat the shit out of. Because that's all they say to me, is, fuck you, Fredo. I'll beat your ass all the time, no matter what it is. But it's fundamental to them. If I say anything to them or anything, you're coming at us. This is what you do. Now, we in the 10%, they call themselves. I don't know what 10% this is, but the 10%, we were always right and we're coming for you. Now. I don't know who the 10% is, but I do identify the dynamic, and I see it even in Trump. Trump has to be at once indomitable and constantly dominated. Everybody's getting him all the time, and they even shot him. Like, this is how much they come after him. That is as important as anything about him. The question is what to do about it. What do we do about it?
- [54:17]
Kara Swisher
Well, I think. I don't know someone like that. He's old. He's not changing. Something happened to him in the youth. And one time there was one tech executive who was that way, kind of that way, and was always trying to dominate. And I went up to him and I said, you know what? Your parents. I think your parents are dead. I think their parents are dead. And I said, your parents aren't living and they're not gonna hug you anymore. And I know you didn't get enough, but you need to fucking step off of me. Like, I'm sorry you didn't get hugged enough, but time's past. Get some therapy, move along. And I think, you know, I think at some point, things do change where people cannot be in a constant state of agitation. And I think think Trump would be very smart not to cause, as you know, for an Italian word, because my grandmother used it all the time, was aged, like, stop causing, Ajita. You're causing me. My grandfather used to always walk down the street. He was a tough guy. His name was Sharkey. And he would go to people, he goes, you're causing me, Ajita. I don't like it. Like. And they'd stop because he was kind of a scary kind of looking guy. But I think there's enough Ajida. And I think at some point, people are not going to take it well, especially women. By the way, I was in a weird incident today. The reason I was Slightly late today was a UPS truck or a FedEx truck, I don't remember. Stopped in the middle of the street and a guy was delivering mail. He blocked everybody, just blocked everybody. And he just was like. And he was right near the edge. So he could have pulled back or pulled over, but he didn't. He blocked everybody. And so all these people are trying to get their kids and they're school. And they were like, what in the actual fuck? And all these women, he was like, I'm not moving. I'm not moving for you. I'm delivering my things. You could move backwards. And these women were like, you fucking move backwards or we're gonna take you apart limb by fucking limb. Like, it was great. And I was right there. I was like, yes, that's what she said. And it was really interesting because I think this guy had sort of. And the one lady said, you know what? You're not Donald Trump. Back up. Like, it was like, you're not pushing me around. So I think there is a countervailing feeling. And it's not like pussy hats and we're going to get you. It's this sort of like, just as you have a countervilling feeling of violence towards you, you have a countervailing pushback. And I think that is probably we're going to go. And the Democratic leader of the future has to fight a little bit and be a little tough and at the same time give you a sense of hope. Right. Which Obama did in many ways. Right. But I do think there's several really good Democratic. I mean, everyone's like, hopeless in the Democrats. I'm not. I've met all of them.
- [56:53]
Chris Cuomo
Who do you like?
- [56:54]
Kara Swisher
Oh, a lot of the governors. A lot of the governors like, you know, Jared Polis. I like Andy Beshear. I think I like elements of all of them. Gretchen Whitmer, I think is really interesting. I very much think Pete Buttigieg is onto something. Like, onto the way he talks to people is really interesting. You know, I'm not Fetterman. I go in and out on. But I see what he's up to. I see his. Like, I'll talk to, like, I'm the. I'm the regular guy.
- [57:20]
Chris Cuomo
What about Shapiro?
- [57:21]
Kara Swisher
Love him. I did a great interview with him. I think he's really interesting. He's brainy. He's very, you know, he gets things done. And if you can be like, if. If Democrats can show themselves doing well on governorships around and including mayorships. Dana Lurie just got elected in. In San Francisco. I liked London Breed. I thought she was handed a bag of shit and then was told, oh, look, you. You improved the bag of shit, but you didn't get rid of it. I was like, she was handed a bag of shit.
- [57:47]
Chris Cuomo
That's how it is in politics, though. You own the status quo.
- [57:50]
Kara Swisher
She just. The pandemic. She did an excellent job and had the right instincts, I think, around crime and a lot of stuff.
- [57:56]
Chris Cuomo
My favorite in that field is a name we haven't mentioned yet. Maryland Governor Wes Moore.
- [58:02]
Kara Swisher
Wes Moore.
- [58:03]
Chris Cuomo
That guy checks every box.
- [58:06]
Kara Swisher
He does. Well, Republicans are telling me that thing about the military is. Is a weakness. That where he said he was something. I didn't follow it that closely. There's some controversy around service.
- [58:17]
Chris Cuomo
I don't know. Anyway, he definitely served. He was definitely in combat, and that's enough. What happened when he was there. He's gonna have to be held to account for it. But, you know, they're lifting up hegseth. Anybody who does five minutes of research on military. And I am not. These guys have kept me alive in bad places more than once. But if you are in a command position and you are in theater, you're in a kinetic combat zone, you almost always get a Bronze Star for that service. And I'm not saying you don't deserve it.
- [58:52]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [58:52]
Chris Cuomo
The demarcation is whether it has a V chip. The V is for valor, meaning that you did something in the combat that warranted the distinction. And if he can be Secretary of Defense with what is a very basic pedigree for those kinds of guys, then Westmore is fine times 10.
- [59:19]
Kara Swisher
There's a lot of. I think that it's not true that Democrats may be in disarray. That's their favorite thing. But I do think there's a lot of really promising people. Maura Healy is so liked in Massachusetts, and it's not because she's super liberal at all. She's just. She just gets stuff done there. I don't know how she's doing right now in her term, but the mayor of Boston is badass. Like, there's all these, like, really interesting. She's had a baby, and they were talking about her. She. She's going back after maternity pretty quickly. And they were talking about. In a radio show, she calls in, she goes, so great. You're talking about my fucking maternity leave. Let me tell you what I'm gonna do. Like, she was just, like, she owned it. And, you know, she wasn't being victimized. There's a lot of really interesting all across the country, you know, all across. Across the country. I do like how Gavin Newsom's punching back at them. I don't mind that at all. He's not putting up with any shit. And you could criticize him too.
- [60:10]
Chris Cuomo
There's a good deal. Yeah, he got, you know, look, he. He's a mixed bag. And that's not unusual. And it's not a criticism. He's gonna have to find his lane and circumstance. And the burden of the Democrat has always been to be better. I know the Republicans will yell at me and say, no, you guys are the most vicious. And I understand why they say that. But a lot of it is gamemanship that they're saying that. And Democrats have to be better. And outrage is exhausting. And people are gonna want something. Cause it's not gonna move the line. And that's why I believe that it's really important for Democrats, if they wanna be productive right now, is they gotta work with the Republicans on immigration reform. And I'm not saying that as a partisan. Cause I really hate the parties. If I could change anything, I would do what Washington said. Get rid of the political parties.
- [61:03]
Kara Swisher
Right. Well, it's not happening.
- [61:04]
Chris Cuomo
Don't let them. Well, they're not in the Constitution. They're not creatures of law. They're just traditional.
- [61:09]
Kara Swisher
No, I'm just saying it's just gotta change, I think. You know, I love these. These primaries, the ones where ranked choice. Ranked choice. I have to. I know there's issues around it I've read a lot about. There's different problems. But I got to say, it always seems to happen upon a person. Everyone feels okay with. Like it sounds. And it. And it would. I think it was Jeff Zucker who said this. Something I was at. He said the real problem, the things that have hurt our country are Rupert Murdoch, gerrymandering, and social media altogether. And I thought that was a really smart assessment because gerrymandering makes it so reasonable people can't be reasonable. And therefore all these Republicans had to pretzel themselves into ways like someone like Ken Buck. He left Congress. Listen, this guy and I are so far apart on so many things. I enjoy talking to him. He's a sensible conservative, but has some crazy stuff too. Like I'm like, around Covid, for example, but he was someone you could deal with. And he learned himself up on social media. He learned himself up on tech power. And he was like, what in the actual fuck, Carol with these people? And I was like, thank you, Ken. Thank you. What in the Actual. And we came at it different ways, but we ended up having a really great dialogue. And then he left and he partnered with a guy, Dave Cicillini from gay guy from Rhode island. Couldn't be more blue. The two of them put out a report that was fantastic together.
- [62:31]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah, I know him. I've interviewed him a bunch of times.
- [62:33]
Kara Swisher
Generally the most unlikely pair. There's all kinds of people like that across the country, both Democrats and Republicans, that really have had to pretzel themselves in certain ways. I think the Republicans more than the Democrats and the Democrats just scream all the time at each other and this and that. But the Republicans have had to really mutate themselves in ways that kind of reminds me of. Of just how you mutate your body or you mutate yourself. And I think that's the real danger. Trump has an opportunity to not do that. He won't take it because he's a really limited person. But there is a countervailing force, I think, coming. And the same thing with media as everyone's moving, tacking, right, tacking. Let's tell you what's wrong. There is a huge, wide open space for saying, let's tell you what's right and let's talk about how to get there. And I think that in that way, center and center left media can really reassert itself in ways as long as they're not scream fests. And you know that on cable, the yell. I wrote you when you did that great mayor thing when I was watching. What did I do? I said this was something I learned about May. You had a Republican mayor, you had a Democratic mayor. I learned so much in that thing. I loved it. And I wrote you. I was like. You're like, I can't believe someone's watching. I was like, no, this is the kind of stuff that was helpful to me, you know, as a person and as a consumer of that stuff. And that's. There has to be more of that. And I'm sure people love it. I know they do.
- [63:58]
Chris Cuomo
Yeah, we're doing. We've been doing that stuff. We've been doing. I hate that we call them town halls because everybody uses that term for everything now. But they're just, they're just penetrative. Single issue dives. Yeah. That are based on people who are doing whatever that is that we're talking about.
- [64:15]
Kara Swisher
Right, exactly.
- [64:16]
Chris Cuomo
So look, look, you I appreciate and I like. And anything I can do you for you at any time. I'm a call.
- [64:23]
Kara Swisher
Remember the funny lesbian? That's what you want. Anytime you want a funny lesbian, you have it on. And then it upsets them because they're like, we don't know how.
- [64:29]
Chris Cuomo
You're 10 layers deep on everything you talk about, and that's the commodity.
- [64:34]
Kara Swisher
Thank you. Anytime you have any, any tech tech questions or you need help fixing your phone, you call.
- [64:44]
Chris Cuomo
I told you, she knows. And what's really interesting is that the possibilities in front of us are so different than what we're led to believe. This media is dead. This media is everything. Neither is true. What is the future? The future is the same as the past. Meaning what? Either people believe and want or they don't. Either people are inspired and motivated, or they're not. It can be light, it can be dark, it can be good, it can be bad. But ultimately, it's always about following the money. Just like the sirens indicate, there's an emergency afoot. Follow the money, follow the power, and you'll find your way to what's actually happening. And Kara Swisher was very helpful. Thank you very much for subscribing and following for checking me out on News Nation 8p every weekday night where we will be pushing for action that solves the problems that we all know exist. What do you say? Let's get after it. And as part of that, wear your independence, get your free agent gear, and if you don't like the podcast ads, subscribe on substack. It's only 50 bucks a year, 5 bucks a month if you want to pay more than the per year price. And you'll get my whole fitness body reclamation project that's going on there, as well as dealing with my long Covid. Cheap, cheap, cheap. That's value.