Michael Eric Dyson & Gary Vee on Jesse Jackson and Algorithms

Summary

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The Chris Cuomo Project

Episode: Michael Eric Dyson & Gary Vee on Jesse Jackson and Algorithms
Date: February 22, 2026
Host: Chris Cuomo
Guests: Michael Eric Dyson, Gary Vee (Gary Vaynerchuk)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Chris Cuomo Project focuses on the passing and legacy of civil rights leader Reverend Jesse Jackson, featuring an in-depth, heartfelt conversation with Dr. Michael Eric Dyson. The second half segues into a broad examination of social media's effects on society and personal accountability, in conversation with entrepreneur Gary Vee. The episode wraps up with Cuomo fielding live calls on topics ranging from terminology in discussing sexual abuse cases to political transparency and the Epstein scandal. As always, the discussion is candid, passionate, and punctuated by Cuomo’s signature irreverence and drive for honest conversation.

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Segment 1: Remembering Reverend Jesse Jackson

[00:00–11:00]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Jesse Jackson’s Unique Legacy

  • Dyson immediately contextualizes Jackson’s importance—not just as Dr. King’s successor in the civil rights movement after 1968, but as an international figure who stood for more than just Black America.
    • “He emerged as the heir apparent to Reverend King... and then emerged in the aftermath of that.” (Dyson, 00:34)
  • Jackson’s efforts to build economic power and inclusiveness—via the Rainbow Coalition—are emphasized.
  • Dyson shares personal anecdotes, including being present with Jackson in London after Nelson Mandela’s release, showcasing Jackson’s global respect.
    • “I saw him on that international stage, and... how many noted politicos from around the world... expressing profound admiration for Jesse Jackson.” (Dyson, 02:32)

• Jackson’s Personal Qualities

  • Cuomo and Dyson highlight Jackson’s physical and intellectual vigor—high eloquence, poetic resonance, and unwavering commitment to causes like voting rights.
    • “He was a man who only knew one speed that is full ahead with full force.” (Dyson, 04:34)

• Jackson’s Activism in Later Years

  • Even into his late 70s and 80s, Jackson remained fiercely involved, including risking arrest for protest efforts.
    • “Even into his late 70s and early 80s, he was determined never to be a relic or an ornament.” (Dyson, 04:34)

• Lessons and Succession

  • Cuomo shares a memorable last encounter with Jackson, who tells him, “Don’t be precious. You’re not there for them,” emphasizing legacy over personal comfort (05:56).
  • Dyson suggests Rev. Al Sharpton is the logical heir to Jackson’s mantle, outlining their decades-long connection.
    • “There’s no question that the man to whom that mantle is passed... is Reverend Al Sharpton.” (Dyson, 08:32)

Notable Quotes

• Michael Eric Dyson [02:10]:

  “Jesse Jackson became the heir apparent and then emerged in the aftermath of that. But when he ran in 1984 and 88 for the presidency, he proved... that it was for poor white working class people who were white as well.”

• Chris Cuomo [05:56]:

  “With great men, you take what you can get... It was so important to him that you fought what he saw as the good fight. He was not a party person... He was a real one. And what do we do with the loss?”

• Michael Eric Dyson [08:34]:

  “The significant figure who has inherited what Reverend Jesse Jackson has been about is Reverend Al Sharpton.”

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Segment 2: Gary Vee on Social Media, Algorithms & Personal Accountability

[14:11–24:06]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Social Media as a Reflection, Not a Determinant

  • Gary Vee reframes platforms and algorithms as mirrors of users’ own search and engagement patterns.
    • “The algorithm responds to what you're consuming... So I view it as a blank vessel that is an exposure of your mindset at the moment.” (Gary Vee, 15:42)
  • He encourages individuals to seek out positive content and observe how their algorithm shifts in response.

• Personal Responsibility vs. Blame Culture

  • Gary stresses that people are quick to place blame rather than look inward. He urges moving “from pointing fingers to pointing thumbs.”
    • “We've become incredibly good at pointing fingers instead of thumbs.” (Gary Vee, 16:23)
  • Suggests people actively engage with content categories like happiness and hobbies to change their digital experiences.

• Political Content & Algorithmic Dangers

  • Cuomo challenges Gary Vee's optimism regarding the algorithm's neutrality, arguing that in political categories, platforms promote outrage and divisiveness.
    • “You are correct until we get into the category of politics. Because... the algorithm poisons them with outrage and provocativeness.” (Cuomo, 18:51)

• The “Sink vs. Well” Metaphor

  • Gary Vee describes his approach as focusing not on “the sink” (the daily noise and outrage) but “the well” (long-term, foundational improvement in people’s lives).
    • “I’m not going to do what I think everyone's doing, which is spending all their time on the sink. I'm going to spend all my time on the well.” (Gary Vee, 21:10)

• Constructive Focus

  • Gary Vee believes working on people’s self-esteem and financial literacy is more powerful than engaging in performative politics or outrage.

• If He Had a Magic Wand...

  • Gary Vee would have humans love each other like they love dogs.
    • “I would create a magic spell that took the way people feel about dogs and make it flip into them feeling that way about their fellow human.” (Gary Vee, 23:31)

Notable Quotes

• Gary Vee [16:23]:

  “We've become incredibly good at pointing fingers instead of thumbs.”

• Gary Vee [21:10]:

  “I'm not going to do what I think everyone's doing, which is spending all their time on the sink. I'm going to spend all my time on the well.”

• Gary Vee [23:31]:

  “I would create a magic spell that took the way people feel about dogs and make it flip into them feeling that way about their fellow human.”

• Chris Cuomo [21:10]:

  “God damn, it’s a piece of genius. So that’s what I’m talking about. Not on the sink, on the well.”

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Segment 3: Listener Calls – Language, Transparency, and Cultural Accountability

[25:54–40:00]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• On Language Concerning Sexual Abuse Victims

  • Caller Susan (Lansing, MI) urges Cuomo to use “young women” versus “girls” when discussing certain sex crimes. Cuomo responds that broad language is deliberate to capture full wrongdoing, not minimize it.
    • “The reason I say it the way I say it has purpose behind it. ... It's just wrong. If they're 17, it's definitely illegal and absolutely wrong... I want as broad a net as possible.” (Cuomo, 27:08–28:43)

• On Political Transparency & Epstein Files

  • Barb from Michigan questions why politicians, including Trump, have not released all information related to Jeffrey Epstein.
    • Cuomo draws a line between criminal and reputational issues. He emphasizes that the real unresolved question is “Who knew? Who protected him? Why did it go on?” (Cuomo, 30:41–32:02)
    • “That is not a DOJ conversation... But it is a conversation, and you’ve got to take it away from them.” (31:50)

• On QAnon and Pedophile Conspiracies

  • Kathy, another caller, claims QAnon “was on to something” regarding pedophile rings. Cuomo sternly rejects conflating QAnon and Epstein:
    • “QAnon is a bunch of psychos where they take a little bit of something that could be true, mix it with an unknown, and create an impossible. Okay?” (Cuomo, 36:24)
    • Explains that without a trial, “we may never know what [Epstein’s operation] really was.” (Cuomo, 37:09)

• On Epstein’s Death & Accountability

  • Both Cuomo and Dyson express incredulity at how Epstein could die in custody, but Cuomo criticizes the politicization and exploitation of the issue.
    • “That doesn’t mean he was murdered. That’s what pisses me off about Bongino... And there is a virtue and a vice in that, okay? I ultimately come down on the side of it being a vice.” (Cuomo, 38:54)

Notable Quotes

• Chris Cuomo [27:08]:

  “I do not deserve your criticism for not being respectful of the situation and who's involved... The reason I say it the way I say it has purpose behind it.”

• Chris Cuomo [36:24]:

  “QAnon is a bunch of psychos where they take a little bit of something that could be true, mix it with an unknown, and create an impossible.”

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Memorable Moments

• Dyson’s Portrait of Jackson

  • Dyson’s eloquent, personal recollections of Reverend Jackson, especially the international impact and his enduring activism, are emotional highlights (02:32–04:34).

• Cuomo’s Story of Jackson’s Advice

  • The anecdote about Jackson putting his hand on Cuomo’s head, offering advice not to be "precious," is vivid and poignant (05:56).

• Gary Vee's “Sink vs. Well”

  • A metaphor for focusing on deep, long-term impact over getting lost in the churn of the moment (21:10).

• Magic Wand Wish

  • Gary Vee wishing people could love each other as reflexively as they love dogs—a moment both whimsical and deeply insightful (23:31).

• Cuomo’s Pushback on QAnon Logic

  • Cuomo’s fiery rebuttal of QAnon claims and insistence on rigorous, fact-based conversation stands out as direct and unapologetic (36:24).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–11:00] – Michael Eric Dyson reflects on Jesse Jackson’s legacy
• [14:11–24:06] – Gary Vee on social media, algorithms, and personal responsibility
• [25:54–40:00] – Listener calls on language in abuse discussions, the Epstein case, QAnon claims, and broader societal accountability

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Tone and Language

• Chris Cuomo: Frank, passionate, sometimes confrontational but always striving for intellectual honesty and depth; never shying from hard truths or personal vulnerability.
• Michael Eric Dyson: Eloquent, historically and philosophically rich, both intellectual and deeply personal.
• Gary Vee: Direct, optimistic, practical, and motivational, with a focus on agency and self-betterment.

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This episode provides a multifaceted conversation about leadership, legacy, media, accountability, and how we engage (and often fail to engage) constructively with tough issues—as individuals and as a society.

Transcript

[Chris Cuomo]

Michael Eric Dyson, professor, pastor, reverend, historian, civil rights activist, and of course, social critic par excellence and friend of mine. Michael Eric Dyson, thank you for joining us, especially on short notice, so early in the morning. And I mourn the passing of the Reverend, who mattered to me personally and mattered to all of us from a civic and professional perspective. What do you want people to know about who he was and what he meant?

[Michael Eric Dyson]

Well, thanks for having me, my dear friend. And he certainly was a man for his times, but a man for all ages, a man who, as you've already indicated, was not only beneficial to black America. In the aftermath of Dr. King's death in 1968, when he was in his late 20s, around 27 years old, and he emerged as the heir apparent to Reverend King and not without controversy, because surrounding him were Andy Young and Ralph Abernathy and the like. Jesse Jackson had only recently joined that circle after the Selma march where he met Dr. King for the first time, and then quickly ascended as head of Operation Breadbasket, which was their economic arm up north, attempting to integrate businesses so that black people could have a fair shake in terms of financial arrangements. So Jesse Jackson became the heir apparent and then emerged in the aftermath of that. But when he ran in 1984 and 88 for the presidency, he proved that he was part of what he borrowed from some of the Black Panthers in Chicago, part of the Rainbow Coalition, that it was for poor white working class people who were white as well. I was with him in London in the immediate aftermath of Nelson Mandela's release from prison. And we sat in the house of Oliver Tombo in a flat in London with Mrs. Mandela and Winnie Mandela and Nelson Mandela and Reverend Jackson right there. I saw him on that international stage, and I cannot tell you how many noted politicos from around the world, the Australian ambassador expressing profound admiration for Jesse Jackson. And then when we traveled the length and breadth of this country, going to San Antonio, off the radar, by the way, not the media following him, those who thought he was merely a media hound missed his profound commitment to ordinary people. And he would call me sometimes in the morning, far earlier than this, and he would say, this is your brother. And then he would run right into the issues he wanted to talk about. This man, you weren't going to get up earlier than him. You weren't going to go to bed later than him. He was committed in a most profound way to the betterment of not only his people, but this nation at large.

[Chris Cuomo]

Big strong man, big voice. You know, we try to mitigate These qualities only when we don't have them. And the presentation mattered. The voice, the basso profundo, the rhyming, the cadence, the reach of history, the righteous indignation. And such an amazing battery life I got. I want to say, Michael, you'll know, you'll remember better than I, as always, but I really want to. It certainly was after 2020. I remember when I was going at it with Joe Manchin about the filibuster, which I was probably wrong about, by the way. We probably do need the Senate filibuster, because these people are crazy, and the simple majority will just take us in all kinds of wacky directions. But Jesse disagreed. My father disagreed, by the way. And Jesse, I think it was after 2020 he got arrested, I remember, for protesting to get rid of the filibuster so you could pass the. The last iteration of the Fair Voting Act.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

Oh, yeah. I mean, brother, he. To his dying day. I went to see him a few weeks ago when he left the private care facility to return home. And, you know, he's watching CNN, MS, now. He's listening to you. He admired you. He admired your father. So it takes one to know one. The high eloquence, the beautiful poetic resonance of words, the use of words as warehouses of divine inspiration or earthly struggle. And he sat there and listened. And was motivated to the very end by politics, by the world around him, by trying to make things better and getting arrested. Of course, that's what he did. He didn't mind. Even into his late 70s and early 80s, he was determined never to be a relic or an ornament. And when I went to preach in Chicago a couple of years, he was right there in his wheelchair on the front row. He was a man who only knew one speed that is full ahead with full force, trying to do the best he could, not for himself, but for the people he loved and for the nation that he served so valiantly.

[Chris Cuomo]

I wonder what this meant. I forget which convention it was, but it was probably the last one he attended. I remember he was being escorted around and, you know, diminished capacity.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

In Chicago. In Chicago.

[Gary Vee]

But.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, but with. With great men, you take what you can get. You know what I mean? You squeeze every drop out of them, because it doesn't matter if they're not at the height of their powers anymore. They're still far more powerful than you, and we need their agency, right? And I remember him saying in. In that, you know, halted speech. Don't be precious. He said to me, don't. Don't don't be precious. You're not there for them, he said. And he took his hand. He put it. Big hands, put his hand on the side of my head, kind of clapped the side of my head a couple times, just like my father would. And it was so important to him that you fought what he saw as the good fight. He was not a party person. He was not a partisan. He was not about calculation and advantage. He was. What would they call these days, a real one? And what do we do with the loss? Who is a real one to turn to? A la, you know, Joe DiMaggio? Lonely country turns its eyes to you. What do we do without a Jesse Jackson?

[Michael Eric Dyson]

I mean, he was unique and powerful. He was, you know, brought the panoply of gifts to bear, as you've already indicated, the oratorical skill, the extraordinary good looks. I remember I was a professor of his son, Jesse Jr. In 1989, where I first met him, and when I went over to his house to be considered to be a writer for his book, which I eventually did win, though we did not publish the book. And he was remarkably, strikingly handsome. It's hard for people to understand that at his height, what this man presented physically, just a gorgeous embodiment of tall masculinity, of black masculinity, of what might now be unpopular, to say, a kind of virtuous masculinity that was beautiful and redemptive. And he used it for the advantage of, you know, his community, to be certain. But here was a man who was relentlessly dedicated to doing the right thing and figuring out what could occur. His greatest, I think, if you will, the person who will, let me put it this way, the person who will inherit his legacy is certainly Reverend Al Sharpton. The Reverend Al Sharpton has been with Jesse Jackson since He was, what, 12, 13 years old? He has been in the circle, he has been around him, he has learned from him, he has had conflict with him, but mostly love and celebratory engagement. And there's no question that the man to whom that mantle is passed, the man who received that baton, is a man already established and really the significant figure who has inherited what Reverend Jesse Jackson has been about is Reverend Al Sharpton. So it will be telling and it will be revealing to see the nation then turn its eyes. As you brilliantly quoted that Joe DiMaggio, or as W.H. auden said, when Dag Hammershull passed off the scene, a great light has gone out. And that great light has gone out and now rests, I think, upon the shoulders of Reverend Jesse Jackson, who him of Reverend Al Sharpton, who has transformed himself over these many years and into a leader that, you know, Barack Obama looked forward to and felt that his advice was critical and essential. So I think Reverend Al Sharpton is the man who will carry that mantle forward.

[Chris Cuomo]

Michael Eric Dyson, thank you very much for your perspective, your acuity as always. And on one level, this has become a more familiar feeling for me. I'm just sad because certain things, you know, you'll have another, you'll have more, but you'll never have the same. And I'm just happy I knew him and got to learn from them and you know, not always easy lessons, but I all, all, all respect for the entire family and the legacy. And it's an important time to talk about it, especially with where we are with the lack of leadership in this country right now. Boy, imagine if it were 90, 1988, right now, if that Jesse Jackson came onto the stage, we would have a much shorter conversation about what's going to happen in 2028 on the Democratic side, that's for sure. All right, brother, I'm sorry for your loss. Please extend my condolences to the family. Anything I can do, I'm a call away.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

All right, thank you, my friend. God bless.

[Chris Cuomo]

You. Like that? Taste of Cuomo mornings. That's my new show on Sirius XM, the Potish Channel 124 every weekday morning, 7 to 9 Eastern. But if you want to just join here on my YouTube channel, you'll be getting a steady diet of selects and depending on your subscription level, you can have priority call in on that show. You can have more access to me to ask questions, smaller groups, individual conversations about what matters to you. It's all about your level of subscriber. So on the regular basis, we'll be putting excerpts of the show that resonate with right here. And how much access you get is up to you. So check out the menu and make the choice that works best for your appetite.

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[Chris Cuomo]

You know, there's a saying in America. It's hard to succeed when you have a funny name. Is that a real saying in America? No, but I just made it one. You know who Gary Vee is? And you know why he goes by V? Because nobody can say Vaynerchuk. Vaynerchuk. You go online and you look up this guy's name and how to say it, and it's like a commercial for Hooked on Phonics. But Gary Van has succeeded in a way that is not only spectacular, but to me, makes so much sense of what we need more of a guy who humped it as a young person, found a way to be an entrepreneur. And remember what that means. French word for someone who takes risk, who goes and gets out over the skis and takes risk that maybe doesn't even make sense to a lot of people and then succeeds. And Gary Vee has taught us about brand, about extension of self, and about what it is that keeps us from succeeding, which I think we need so much more of. And he is one of the few where I can say this guy's success is deserved and I hope it multiplies. And he joins us now. Gary Vee, my brother, thank you for calling in.

[Gary Vee]

Always my friend. Great to be with you.

[Chris Cuomo]

So when you look around at how social media is now dominating our existence, it literally gives us the list every day of what is trending, what we must focus on. What do you see as the plus minus for people in terms of this being a tool that helps versus hurts?

[Gary Vee]

You know, I see it as, as an exposure. I mean, I think it, it's, you know, net net, you know, where the country and the world sentiment is. It's probably neutral. It should be remarkably net positive. But the reality is that we spoke about this recently. The algorithm responds to what you're consuming, what you're searching, what you're engaging with. So I view it as a blank vessel that is an exposure of your mindset at the moment. And ultimately that becomes the mirror, not a net positive or negative.

[Chris Cuomo]

And what's the adjustment?

[Gary Vee]

The adjustment is really taking a step back and leaning into accountability. I think if you really look at what's going on right now, we've become incredibly good at pointing fingers instead of thumbs. And so, you know, we're very, you know, you think about the nature of this show. I, I think you do such a good job at this. But I know what's happening on the other side of the audio. People are jumping to, it's this person's fault, it's that person's fault instead of what can I do about it? So my favorite thing to do with friends and my audiences, tell them to go to Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or any platform they use and search happiness, joy or hobbies, right? Cooking, skiing and following 10 accounts, liking 50 pieces of content, and then opening up their phone the next day and asking them has their algorithm changed. It's a real eye opener for many and I think it's a small indication of what's really happening in the mindset. And I think for me, entrepreneur, it was easy in the 80s and 90s when this was not popular, to not see college the same way everyone saw it. I went to appease my parents, but I really, I, I. Everything's been very common sense and clear for me my whole life. I think we connect on that, my friend. And this is just another example of people not able to see the level above what the conversation is.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, I wish that I could echo Gary Vee's. Mentality. I often see myself as someone who sees the Sword of Damocles as a joke compared to what I'm worried about falling on my head at all times. But I, I do think there's such a wisdom in what you're talking about. But I do have one point of pushback. So Gary Vee comes on my show at News Nation and hits me with this, you're the problem with your algorithm thing, right? And totally bloodies my nose and winds up, I wind up following a couple of people who, doing beautiful things. I'll even, I'll even tell you who they are. I, I, because I only followed in my main account, I only follow my kids, which I don't know why they wanted that because people just all over them. But the Victor, Victor, the good boss, Victor Oliveira, okay, who has a good following, like a million and a half people, but for amazing reason. He goes out into the streets and videos him trying to get people clean and taking on advocacy for their situations. Love it. Love him. So I do what Gary Vee says with the algorithm. But now I have a point of pushback, brother.

[Gary Vee]

Go ahead.

[Chris Cuomo]

You are correct until we get into the category of politics. Because if people search the political issues of the day, which they should, the algorithm poisons them with outrage and provocativeness and not perspective and good information. Well, I think that we don't control.

[Gary Vee]

Yeah, but again, you know, listen, you're going to know this better than me, but I would ask you, you know, and it's tougher than ever because you can't win a primary. And that's probably something we should talk about as a nation. But, you know, who are the, who are the purple politicians? Do they exist? I ask you, Chris, I'm flipping the switch. Like in the political climate where you can't win a primary unless you're to the edges of your party. You know, who are the voices of purple? You know, we're very far away, away from Teddy Kennedy and, and Dole, you know, acting like actual politicians. But again, if you consume and follow those individuals and engage with their content, it will go there. And again, let me tell you how I do it. I'm obsessed with being up to the moment of what's going on in the world. I don't put my head in the ground, but I use different apps to consume my news versus what I'm consuming in social. And so there's also the ability again to say, hey, I'm going to use social for information, for escapism, for joy, for the ability to enjoy that scrolling instead of it becoming something that brings anxiety. And I'm going to consume my information from these four or five news apps. Something to think about.

[Chris Cuomo]

What do you believe comes along with your success in terms of desire? I won't say responsibility because you don't have one, but desire to be more involved in the conversation in America, let's call it.

[Gary Vee]

I think that I've done it pretty successfully for the last 10 years. My desire is pretty deep. I just know that 50% of people are on tilt on issues, depending on what the issue is. So what I've decided over the last decade is I'm not going to do what I think everyone's doing, which is spending all their time on the sink. I'm going to spend all my time on the well.

[Chris Cuomo]

Oh, explain that to me. God damn, it's a piece of genius. So that's what I'm talking about. Not on the sink, on the well. Look at Dusty right now. Dusty's like, Dusty like that. She doesn't understand what.

[Gary Vee]

Dusty is very smart. Don't razzle. I think that he's right though. I have no idea what that meant. So I'm hanging on your every word. I need to know because I will use it as my own. Here we go. So I think a lot of people are addressing the now. But if I can get everyone to follow me and pay attention, I can systematically, over time put out enough content that talks about accountability and responsibility, self love and opportunity because it's enormous. Chris. Right. You know, Charles Barkley once said America doesn't have a black and white problem. As a rich and poor problem, I'm, I've been very effective over the last 20 years of helping people get happier and get wealthier by putting out unlimited amounts of content on both. So for me, I know that if I go overly political and by the way, I'm sure you know exactly what I'm about to say. I sometimes change my mind on political views and we've completely like. The truth is, and I'll be very honest about this, I just don't trust America in the, in the group of it all, like the, the bulk of it all to be able to have the kind of normal conversations that I was accustomed to watching be had in the 80s and 90s. We've just gone to a totally different place. And by the way, that's okay. I'm not crying. There's no crying in baseball. I've just focused on if I can get people to work on their actual self esteem. If I can get people to actually like themselves. If I can actually show people how to make money at night after they're nine to five. Because I know so many don't have the ability to quit their 9 to 5. Well, if I make you happier, you're not going to have the capacity to hate someone because of their race, gender, skin color, or even how much money they make. So there you go.

[Chris Cuomo]

If you could wave a magic wand and change things in society, no world peace, no live forever, no cancer goes away, what would you change?

[Gary Vee]

The I would. I would do something very unique. You ready for this one? I've thought about this.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes.

[Gary Vee]

I would take the. I would create a magic spell that took the way people feel about dogs and make it flip into them feeling that way about their fellow human.

[Chris Cuomo]

So you would make people feel about people the way they do about dogs?

[Gary Vee]

That's right. I think that humans are default in love with dogs and on default are not in love with people. I walk around earth today, I will walk to work and I will literally look at dozens of people's faces and by default, I will like them.

[Chris Cuomo]

Gary Vee, thank you so much for being a part of our family. And I am happy to echo your message because I think you're part of what makes us better in this society. We need more Gary Vee, not less. Can't wait for him to own the jets. Brother, you go about your day. I'll talk about you in your absence.

[Gary Vee]

They will

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[Chris Cuomo]

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[Gary Vee]

Hello.

[Chris Cuomo]

Hello.

[Caller Susan]

Hi.

[Chris Cuomo]

Hello, young lady. What is your name and where are you?

[Caller Susan]

Hi, my name is Susan and I'm in Lansing, Michigan.

[Chris Cuomo]

How you doing? Been there. What do you got?

[Caller Susan]

I'm good, I'm good. I'm good. You know, I just want you to start saying young women when you talk about this subject. They're minors, they're children.

[Chris Cuomo]

And they're both right. They're both.

[Caller Susan]

We don't know. Well, then.

[Chris Cuomo]

Oh, yes, we do know. Yes, we do know, young girl. Yes, we do know. And let me tell you why I'm cutting you off, Susan. You're playing a PC point right now. That pisses me off and I'll tell you why. I do not deserve your criticism for not being respectful of the situation and who's involved, okay? I do not deserve that. It is unwarranted and the reason I say it the way I say it has purpose behind it. And I'll explain it. I'm not mansplaining, I'm explaining, okay? If you rape a 24 year old woman, it is a crime. If you take a 2224 year old woman and travel them under false pretenses and put them in situations where they feel compelled to act, it is wrong. If not illegal, it is wrong. If it's not the man act, it's just wrong. If they're 17, it's definitely illegal and absolutely wrong. If they're 14, it's definitely illegal and absolutely wrong. But all of it is wrong. So even if you take it at what we know the most about. What do we know the most about young women. Young women above the age of consent who were brought in and abused. That's what we know about the most that matters. You're saying you're mitigating this? You're making it look like it's not as bad because you're not talking about it being children. You're wrong. I say it's children all the time, but it is not what we know the most about. That's why someone like Megan Kelly, who I guarantee you don't call and blow her up, says, you know, he's not really a pedophile. Why is he not a pedophile? Well, because the kids were a little too old. Well, that's a bullshit distinction, right? To me, anything under 30 you could argue is. Is too young. But look, I don't want. I Don't want to judge. All right, you do whatever you want as long as it's legal. But that's why I say it the way I say it. Not to minimize it, but to cast as big a net as I can of how wrong this was. Does that make sense?

[Caller Susan]

Yeah, it does. And I apologize for coming on so strong in my criticism, but I think the net needs to include words that are indicative of what really happened, which

[Michael Eric Dyson]

was young girls under the age of 18 as well.

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So I'm with you.

[Chris Cuomo]

Except he was never convicted of that. So he was convicted of having sex with a woman who was almost 18, which he said was a setup, which he said he didn't know. That was the deal he was given in 2008. In 2018-19, he was charged with what you and I are talking about right now, which is, you know, coercion, abuse, underage, you know, all kinds of stuff, and we never had that trial. People should go back and read that indictment, though, and understand why we should care about this. But I'm with you, by the way. I am 100% with you on this. And I want as broad a net as possible. And that's why I don't want to chase these men and women away and just cancel them as if that's satisfying. So somebody's worth a gazillion dollars and they step down from Hyatt. Who gives a shit? I want to know what they knew. That's got to be the bar. Speaking of bar, let's go to Barb in Michigan.

[Caller Susan]

Good morning, Chris. Just a couple of things. First of all, very so Reverend Jackson, that's a very.

[Chris Cuomo]

Me, too.

[Caller Susan]

I'm praying for his family. Regarding Epstein. When Donald Trump was running for president and I voted for him, but when he was running for president, he made all these claims. We're going to open all the files. This is every speech, and now all of a sudden, you hit the last. I don't know how many months or maybe a year he's been saying no, no, you know, it's all a Democratic hoax. I'm not blaming him, accusing him of anything. I don't know. I'm just saying it looks suspect when all of a sudden you want to hide everything. Why, if you have nothing to hide, let it all come out.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes.

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Here's the problem.

[Chris Cuomo]

Here's the problem for Trump, Okay? And I guess some of these people, he doesn't like what's in there about them, because while it's not a crime, it may destroy their reputation. Now, by the way. I respect that. I respect that distinction. It is not the place of the Department of Justice to tell America that Barb drank too much in 2003 and smacked a guy. That is not their place. They make criminal cases. That's why I'm saying they shouldn't have been in control of this if they are not gonna make criminal cases. Okay, you can like that, you can not like it. But that's their determination. Take it from them. And now we get to the next level of scrutiny, which isn't canceling, which isn't just ruining reputations. It's who knew that this guy was victimizing children, young women and women, okay? Just to be all inclusive, who knew? Who protected him? Why did it go on? That's what we're talking about. That is not a DOJ conversation, and I respect that. But it is a conversation, and you got to take it away from them and you got to give it to somebody else, and this president does not want to do that.

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[Chris Cuomo]

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[Chris Cuomo]

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[Chris Cuomo]

I like the way it's spelled. L, E, E, S A. You know what else?

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[Chris Cuomo]

Cuomo. Kathy, what do you got?

[Caller Kathy]

Hey, Chris, I'm so glad you're back. Can you hear me?

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes, ma'.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

Am.

[Chris Cuomo]

What do you got?

[Caller Kathy]

You know, I'm kind of in shock that the QAnon people in our lives that we all labeled as crazies and you know that they are actually on to something that was real.

[Chris Cuomo]

What were they on?

[Caller Kathy]

Have to. I think the pedophile ring. I mean, obviously they exaggerated, but the fact that there was this pedophile, you know, there was this group of powerful people that supposedly were running the country were.

[Caller Susan]

Were actually.

[Caller Kathy]

We're actually trafficking children. I mean, I'm in Shock that.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah. Kathy, hold on.

[Caller Kathy]

Yes.

[Chris Cuomo]

Let's come out of shock for a second, okay? And get back into the world of the intellectually rigorous. Look, QAnon is a bunch of psychos where they take a little bit of something that could be true, mix it with an unknown, and create an impossible. Okay? Pizzagate had nothing to do with Epstein. It was psychobabble about Hillary Clinton in the basement of a pizzeria. Okay, that is just stupid talk. Epstein is a very different thing. And we still don't know that it was a trafficking ring. And we may never know what it really was.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

But.

[Chris Cuomo]

And I don't even understand why we're not going to know. I don't understand why the president had these files scrubbed in March. I don't know. My. My suspicion. His buddies were in there saying stupid things, and he is all over the place in here. You want to talk about going after people? To hear Scott Jennings and these other people say, oh, the left, they better talk about Stacy Plaskett and Bill Clinton. Oh, but you're going to ignore that? The guy with the most allegations against him, with the most imprints, with the most references, is the president of the United States right now. And they just ignore it. And they let the president say, I've been completely exonerated. Really, really exonerated. Let's remember what that word means. It means that after a trial, okay, of fact and law, you were found to be innocent. Not not guilty, not they couldn't make the case, but that you did nothing. How can that be true? Based on what we know? And again, I'm not here to judge the man. As a man, I'm not. I don't give a shit how he lives his personal life. I think it's a distraction from us, for us, from what actually matters. But the idea that qanon had it right. Give me a break. DJ Virginia, what do you got?

[Michael Eric Dyson]

You know, I understand the importance of this case because of what it involves. The time. Time stamp that's on it is for decades. But the only thing I cannot ever get out of my head is how was that son of a allowed to die? Imagine if he was alive today.

[Chris Cuomo]

Hold on, hold on. I'm with you. I'm with you. But that doesn't mean he was murdered. That's what pisses me off about Bongino. Okay, Maga got you guys on this. And there is a virtue and a vice in that, okay? I ultimately come down on the side of it being a vice. Why? Because they never had any intention of delivering on it. How do we know? Look at what we're living, okay? And they made shit up. And then they got put into positions of power and they went quiet. What pisses me off about Cash and Bongino isn't just what they lied about to make fortunes for Rumble and podcasts and sell little shirts with their names on it. It's because then they got into positions of power and they didn't tell you what is actually in there. And now Bongino goes back to being the pod father and says, oh, they Bill Clinton better speak for him. Fuck you. Why didn't you say anything when you were in a position of power? What the hell is going on here? Why do you keep rewarding people who lie to you? Why would you make this guy rich by now pretending to be a warrior for the truth in Epstein? Give me a break. How hypocritical, how pathetic is your allegiance to MAGA that you just embarrass yourself this way? Just change topics. It's making me sick. The best measure of where we are as a society is hearing from other members of that society in conversation. That has some cogency to it, some intelligence, not just what do you think about Greenland? It's not about provocation, okay? It's about conversation. That's what we're getting after here on the YouTube channel for the Chris Cuomo project on News Nation, where I'm doing my cable show and Sirius XM Potish Channel 124 for Cuomo in the mornings. Bon appetit.

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