Steve Bannon on Trump’s Return, Garcia’s Deportation, and Cuomo’s Comeback

Summary

Summary of "Steve Bannon on Trump’s Return, Garcia’s Deportation, and Cuomo’s Comeback" – The Chris Cuomo Project (April 17, 2025)

In this compelling episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, host Chris Cuomo engages in an in-depth conversation with political strategist and former White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon. The discussion navigates through several pivotal topics, including Andrew Cuomo’s mayoral bid, economic nationalism, the role of tariffs in U.S. trade policy, taxation of the wealthy, immigration enforcement, and the broader implications of these issues on American society and politics.

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1. Andrew Cuomo’s Mayoral Campaign ([01:55] – [09:16])

Chris Cuomo begins by addressing his brother Andrew Cuomo's run for mayor of New York City. He expresses a mix of admiration and concern:

• Chris Cuomo ([02:13]): "Andrew's one of the most competent individuals, no matter what situation I would have in my life... He is a uniquely competent individual."

Despite his support for Andrew's capabilities, Chris voices apprehension about the media's adversarial approach and multiple allegations against his brother, which he believes pose significant challenges within the Democratic establishment.

• Chris Cuomo ([08:00]): "I think he's attempted something that is against the rules of the radical democratic establishment."

Steve Bannon probes the viability of Andrew's campaign, questioning whether he possesses what New York City needs to revitalize itself. Chris affirms his confidence in Andrew’s ability to "fix" the city but remains skeptical about his public appeal.

• Steve Bannon ([07:53]): "Do you think he can turn it around?"
• Chris Cuomo ([07:53] – [09:05]): "Can he? 100%. Should he? Different question for me."

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2. Steve Bannon’s Influence and Media Strategy ([09:16] – [22:40])

The conversation shifts to Steve Bannon's role in shaping current political narratives and his influence on President Trump:

• Steve Bannon ([19:06]): "We try to provide the cutting edge news and information to understand that our mission here is human agency."

Chris challenges the extent of Bannon's influence, suggesting that media dynamics and the Trump administration's strategies to dominate the news cycle overshadow Bannon's contributions.

• Chris Cuomo ([10:04]): "You are living your strategy of how to flood the zone, distract the media and have a multi-front war in politics, which is very single focused."

Bannon emphasizes his commitment to the MAGA movement and his efforts to amplify populist nationalist voices, highlighting the importance of empowering the working and middle classes.

• Steve Bannon ([19:06]): "We're the home of the vanguard of the Trump movement... We empower people to take action."

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3. Economic Nationalism, Tariffs, and China Policy ([22:40] – [38:55])

A significant portion of the discussion delves into economic nationalism and the strategic use of tariffs to address the U.S. trade deficit with China:

• Steve Bannon ([26:17]): "The trade deficit is absolutely central here... shipping 5 million high paying jobs, manufacturing jobs in those 10 or 15 years to China has created the economic dilemma we have today."

Chris concurs on the necessity of tariffs but critiques their implementation, noting the economic strain they place on consumers:

• Chris Cuomo ([54:53]): "You have to do this if you want to have a country that... is going to have more manufacturing jobs."

Bannon defends tariffs as a tool to bring high-value manufacturing back to the United States, arguing that without such measures, the U.S. remains economically dependent and vulnerable to global pressures.

• Steve Bannon ([25:29]): "This is exactly how they made so much money. This is how the oligarchy..."

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4. Taxation of the Wealthy and Government Deficits ([38:55] – [56:37])

The conversation transitions to taxation policies, specifically the taxation of the wealthy as a means to address the national deficit:

• Steve Bannon ([22:43]): "You have to tax the wealthy... we have to have significant spending cuts."

Chris discusses the balance between necessary tax reforms and the practical challenges of implementing them without stifling economic growth:

• Chris Cuomo ([56:37]): "How do you deal with the fact that people are saying...?"

Both agree that increasing taxes on the wealthy is essential, though they acknowledge the political and economic hurdles involved.

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5. Immigration and Deportation Policies ([56:37] – [70:31])

Immigration enforcement, particularly the deportation case of Garcia, becomes a focal point of their discussion:

• Chris Cuomo ([66:14]): "He threw him out. That is not American, it is unAmerican."

Chris criticizes the deportation despite existing federal orders that permitted Garcia’s stay, emphasizing the importance of adhering to legal procedures.

• Steve Bannon ([68:11]): "He is the chief executive and can make those decisions."

Bannon defends strong immigration enforcement aligned with executive authority, arguing that the President has the power to make decisive actions in national security matters.

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6. Historical Policy Comparisons and Critiques ([38:55] – [70:31])

Bannon draws parallels between current economic policies and historical strategies advocated by figures like Alexander Hamilton, advocating for a “premium market” through tariffs to prioritize domestic industries.

• Steve Bannon ([24:23]): "This is what Alexander Hamilton... American plan."

Chris agrees on the foundational necessity of such policies but argues for a more nuanced approach that goes beyond tariffs to rejuvenate American manufacturing comprehensively.

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7. Personal Reflections and Closing Remarks ([70:31] – [74:20])

In the final segment, Chris reflects on his personal experiences and family background, contrasting them with contemporary political developments. He underscores the widening gap between the wealthy and the working class, attributing much of the societal strain to policies favoring economic elites.

• Chris Cuomo ([74:13]): "The gap between really, really rich and just about losing your shit is really too big."

Steve Bannon expresses a desire to continue the dialogue, focusing on economic nationalism and policy solutions, while Chris reiterates the importance of addressing economic disparities and fostering open conversations across political divides.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Chris Cuomo ([02:13]): "Andrew's one of the most competent individuals, no matter what situation I would have in my life..."

• Steve Bannon ([07:53]): "New York City is the greatest city in the world... Can your brother turn it around?"

• Steve Bannon ([22:43]): "You have to tax the wealthy... we have to have significant spending cuts."

• Chris Cuomo ([54:53]): "You have to do this if you want to have a country that... is going to have more manufacturing jobs."

• Steve Bannon ([26:17]): "The trade deficit is absolutely central here..."

• Chris Cuomo ([66:14]): "He threw him out. That is not American, it is unAmerican."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Chris Cuomo Project offers a thorough exploration of the intersecting issues of political strategy, economic policy, and societal impacts. Through candid dialogue, Chris Cuomo and Steve Bannon dissect the complexities of American politics, emphasizing the urgent need for economic reforms, robust immigration policies, and a reevaluation of the nation's trade strategies. The conversation highlights the divergent yet occasionally converging perspectives of a seasoned journalist and a formidable political strategist, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the current political landscape and the pressing challenges facing the United States.

Transcript

[Chris Cuomo]

Hey, Kristen, how's it tracking with Carvana Value Tracker? What else? Oh, it's tracking, in fact. Value surge alert.

[Steve Bannon]

Trucks up 2.5%, vans down 1.7, just as predicted.

[Chris Cuomo]

Mm.

[Steve Bannon]

So we gonna. I don't know.

[Chris Cuomo]

Could sell.

[Steve Bannon]

Could hold the power to always know our car's worth. Exhilarating, isn't it.

[Chris Cuomo]

Tracking.

[Steve Bannon]

Always know your car's worth with Carvana Value Tracker.

[Chris Cuomo]

You know who President Trump listens to and is driving a lot of what we're living through? Steve Bannon. Chris Cuomo here. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Yup. Steve Bannon. You may think he's crazy, you may think he's some kind of zealot. Let me tell you what. He absolutely is relevant. Relevant to the president, which means relevant to your life, because he is a big driver of the policy agency behind what Trump is doing. So you wanna have a serious conversation, a real deep dive into why we're living through what we are with tariffs. Steve Bannon is the guy to have it with, so that's what I talk to him about. Not all the. What do you mean, three terms and what is about. What about that. Not all the shiny shit that drives way too much of our media. You wanna have a real talk about what really matters and what is really going on. Here it is. Steve Bannon. Thank you for taking the opportunity. This is a conversation I want to get the world of our politics and our culture through the lens of Steve Bannon's mind and see if my audience can get past their preconceptions. You can ask me anything you want as well. So let's begin. What do you got for me, handsome?

[Steve Bannon]

Talk to me about your brother's run for mayor. I think it's one of the most fascinating events in. In. In politics today, and I don't think it's being covered enough. Talk to me about that. Why? Why does your brother want to be mayor of New York City? And. And why does he think he can turn New York City around?

[Chris Cuomo]

My brother has a problem, okay. He maybe inherited it. It may be a genetic trait or a genealogical trait he inherited from my father. A problem. He believes that it's worth the price of admission to serve. He believes it. I was not excited about him running for office because I see it through the lens of being his brother. I can tell you, as a matter of fact, my brother is one of the most competent individuals, no matter what situation I would have in my life. Andrew's one of my first three calls. If someone wants to kick my ass Andrew's one of my first three calls if I have to figure out how to beat Steve Bannon in a debate on anything. Andrew's one of my first three calls whether I'm going to buy a house. What is the.

[Steve Bannon]

Were you guys like that as kids? Were you that close as brothers growing up?

[Chris Cuomo]

Andrew raised me. He's 13 years older than I am. He has a lot of stuff about him that is different than what's in me. But almost everything that's in me is derivative of what I learned through him. Mechanics, fishing, masculinity, ethnic identity, family responsibility, and role of a male within our given family structure and culture. It's not that I was, you know, single parent raised or, or, or an orphan, but my father committed himself to you. He was in public service my whole life. And you know, that generation of ethnic assimilator, they were all about giving back to America. So my father was gone a lot and I was what they call in Cathol families a Blessing. I was six years after my last sibling, my closest sibling, 16 from the oldest. So, you know, not only did I wear girls clothes until I was like 11, they. And not because of an identity thing, it was just what clothes were in the house, but they were gone. You know, my mother was politically active, my father was politically active. So Andrew raised me. So yes, yes, yes. But I didn't want him to run for mayor. Why? I don't think the people deserve him. I think he's given enough. I know the media wants to kill him. You're not allowed to come back on his team. On your team, you're allowed to come back on their team. You are not allowed to come back. You must die. And a single allegation is enough. And Andrew had more than a single allegation. So he is attempting something that is against the rules of the radical democratic establishment. And I worry for him and I worry about that because I hate that dynamic and I think it has destroyed my father's party. Andrew disagrees and he says New York City feels like it did in the 70s and 80s and I don't like it. I'm here, mom is here, Maria's here, our niece, our nieces are here, their kids are here. We gotta do better than this. And that was the end of the analysis for this fucking guy. And I was like, well, hold on a second. This is gonna happen, this is gonna happen and that's gonna happen. And that's gonna happen. And he's like, yeah, yeah. I don't play scared. You play scared. Stay in the media. Media boy. And you play scared. And you play gotcha. I want to serve. I know I can do this. They have compromised Adams. Andrew is not sideways with Eric Adams. He does not dislike Eric Adams. Eric Adams was good to him. But the legal and the political have put a burden on Eric Adams. And Andrew believes that it makes it an untenable situation for him within the same party that's trying to kill him. So that is the analysis for me of my reluctance to see. That's not because Andrew can't do the job I'm getting. Andrew is a uniquely competent individual. My father, with not a trace of deference to his child, would immediately say to you, steve, you know the game and you're coming at it as a Catholic practitioner also. Which my father did. Andrew's better than I am. Is he the thinker that I am? Is he the philosopher that I am? Is he the wordsmith that I am? You judge that he is better at getting things done than I am. Andrew can make deals. He is a mechanic. He's a mechanic with cars, with washing machines and with complicated systems. He knows how to get things done. He always has. I watched him rebuild a washing machine on spec.

[Steve Bannon]

Put aside your personal. The brother. Do you think he is what New York City, given the calamity that New York City is today, do you think he is what New York City needs? Look, New York City is the greatest city in the world. I've loved it. I've had the opportunity to live there on and off in my adult life. I fell in love with the city. It's the global capital of the world. Global financial capital of the world. It is in dire straits. It's not the New York, I think people that love it. You know, Philly used to be. Can your brother turn it around?

[Chris Cuomo]

Can he? 100%. Should he? Different question for me. I'm telling you, I'm not. I. I see my brother with very clear eyes. Is he the most likable? No. Does he have that. That a lot of politicians have? That shine, that charisma? No, Because. And he doesn't want it, by the way. He is not a people pleaser. Is he competent? Is he a fixer? Is he a tough and tested guy? 100% the most in the field? It's not even a close call. Should he do it? Different question. Can he fix New York City? I'm telling you, Steve, there's nothing the guy can't fix. That's what he is as a fixer. Can he make you like him? That's a different question. Can he make the party feel that he'll carry their water in the ways that matter to them? A different question. And if he's lucky, if he's lucky, he'll, he'll get the people to decide that question. If he's lucky. Because as we both know, parties beat people 10 times out of 10 in our process right now. So did I answer your question Fully and completely.

[Steve Bannon]

Fascinating. One of the most important races, it's not getting covered enough, but it's going to be a, a barn burner. It's going to be very interesting to see how New York City's turned around. It's too great a city to let it go down the path it's going.

[Chris Cuomo]

I think what happens to the city after the election is interesting. I think it's not going to be a barn burner because Trump takes up all the oxygen and tariffs. Have no one talking about the party. The New York City race. Garcia, Nobody's talking about the New York City race. Constitutionality. Nobody's talking about the New York City race. And I think you've seen that. I mean, you know the piece that's driving the news cycle on the mayoral race this morning is Andrew Cuomo screws up fundraising application. It's like this is not a barn burner right now, but it's because the president takes up so much oxygen.

[Steve Bannon]

Is President Trump taking up. So do you believe that at News Nation?

[Chris Cuomo]

I mean, I don't. I think it's completely demonstrable and I think it's because of you. By the way, one of the reason I wanted to talk to you is that your war room mentality, you know, for the audience. You'll remember I had Steve on and a lot of you came at me saying why were you like half acting as his lawyer? No, I wasn't. I knew people wanted to dismiss your enthusiasm for the president and your desire for a change in the constitutional structure we have right now about how long you can serve as you being a despot, a revolutionary and wanting to destroy America, I knew that that's how it was going to read. You're saying you want him to do what the Constitution says he's not allowed to do. That means you want to destroy the Constitution. I don't believe that's where you're coming from. So that's why I said it. But you are the reason the guy takes up so much oxygen. He is living your strategy of how to flood the zone, distract the media and have a multi front war in politics, which is a very single focused.

[Steve Bannon]

Business, don't you think? I mean, don't you think that's the reason that your News Nation show, at least, as I say, I'm gonna give you one man's perception is that you're showing News Nation. As News Nation builds itself, I think is getting a lot more attention. At least I know it's attention from people I know and respect in the business and politics than the CNN show. Because different audience. That whole different audience.

[Chris Cuomo]

I am the same guy. You and I try to.

[Steve Bannon]

But you're taking. You're also taking multiple views. Yes, it's. It's, it's, it's every day. It's popping up in my newsfeed Guest you've had on, et cetera, where, you know, we monitor all these 24 7. And it's MSNB right now. CNN, we don't even talk is just not. It's MSNBC and that we're pulling clips from and looking at and analyzing.

[Chris Cuomo]

Right? I mean, very different animals. You know, look, and you know this, you know, the guys involved. But Perry Sook owns the most television stations in America, okay? He's nextar. He owns News Nation. The man has his own politics. He has an absolute demand that you be transparent. If you're on his air at News Nation, it's not a local TV station. It's not a newscast. If you are going to say something, you better fucking own it. That's where he's coming from. I don't, you know, I don't know how much he cares. I've had absolutely no influence from him, you know, because I'm a. I'm a quitter, right? So if you tell me what to do, I'll quit. And so I haven't had that happen. But his guy, Sean Compton, who, you know, has a very heavy hand at News Nation in terms of the business, Mike Corn, who runs it. Their rule is if you pick a side, you better say it. Don't pretend that you're being down the middle if you're picking a side. So the bet, News Nation is making two bets, okay? And they're both bad bets in terms of what works well on cable television, which is one, don't pick a side. Sides are for suckers. And America is a centrist country, and that's where the majority is. The parties play to fringes and they magnify minorities. And that's what social media is, and that's what works for the media. But remember, America is more than that. America is now Twitter. That's Their first bet, which means you are going to be outside the cycle very often. The second one is that the parties are the problem. Now, I say that more than anybody else on News Nation because it's hard to book. You know, if I'm like, I hate Republicans, I hate Democrats. The parties are the problem. They're tearing us down. It's tough to book somebody who's an elected official from either party. So it is a very unpopular thing. What I'm doing at News Nation, I would not have been allowed to do it under Jeff Zucker, no way. Why? Because he knew that that was playing against what resonates. But the bet is that long term, America needs and will want what News Nation is offering, which is, I'll talk to Steve Bannon, I'll talk to James Carville, and I'll test the ideas of both. Neither is my enemy. Neither is my enemy. I may agree with some stuff, I'll say it. I may disagree with some stuff, I'll say it. I don't have bad guys on the show. And if I, if they are a bad guy, I'll have them on because they're a bad guy. Like, you know, I would have them on and say, all right, you know, I think what you're saying makes you a bad guy. Let's test it. And that's not the way to get a following in our media right now. You get it the way Maddow does, the way Hannity does. Not the way we're doing it, but we're betting on something else, the way we've done. Yeah, right. Support comes from American Financing. Look, we all know what the problem is. Prices have been going up and up and there are too many of us who got to reach for our credit card to cover expenses. American Financing can help. How? They help us pay off high interest debt by using your home's equity. American Financing is a family owned mortgage lender. They've been around 25 years, licensed in all 50 states. Their mortgage consultants are salary based, so there's no incentive for them to put you in a loan. That doesn't make sense. Their customers save an average of $800 a month when they call and let American Financing help them. That's the difference between equity and real estate and credit financing. Okay? Credit card financing is very expensive. You may be able to close in as fast as 10 days. If you use American Financing, you may be able to delay up to two mortgage payments, creating even more savings up front. They've helped hundreds of thousands of homeowners create meaningful savings and it's reflected in the reviews on Google. Take a look. So you call today 866-889-4242. That's 866-889-4242. Or just go to americanfinancing.net cuomo nmls182334 www.nmlsconsumeraccess.org. you are the spirit animal of MAGA. And do you see yourself in these circles of influence around the president? Which circle do you put yourself in? With only one proviso. If you say anything more than the second circle, I don't believe you. But what circle of influence do you think you are in the president's world? First is intimates and take what they say as truth. Second circle is a bounce idea, which is Bannon says this. What do you think third circle is? Yeah, I heard what that guy said.

[Steve Bannon]

In the circles. Look, clearly war room. I mean, we pride ourselves of being the top media platform more than Fox. We think Fox, a bunch of neoliberal neocons. We think we're the home of the, of the vanguard of the Trump movement. And it have been, you know, for a while. And why I was at Breitbart, remember, it was Ben Shapiro that said when he left, Ben Shapiro said, I turned Breitbart into Trump Pravda. So I've been very proud to be part of the populist nationalist movement on the ideas and moving those ideas from President Trump when I first really figured out he was going to run in 2014 and saw him up in New Hampshire with Dave Bossi, who, you know, well, put on those cattle calls. I think it's really that we kind of, I think, verbalize and have guess and kind of drive the narrative of what the Trump version of populist nationalism is. And so I don't know if you can call it an influencer. I think, you know, we disagree on certain parts of policy. There's no doubt about it. Like today I had Erik Prince on talking about how do we actually get to mass deportations? Because there's been some confusion here with the current situation in El Salvador and the criminal part of that and the terrorist part of that. And then President Trump made some comments yesterday or last night about, you know, incentivizing people to go home and how you're going to do it. What is really the plan on mass deportation. So in the execution of these, we always have questions and comments and observations and can make recommendations.

[Chris Cuomo]

But you say we, I say you. And where do you see your influence? Like if do you believe you're always a phone call away from the president, but do you believe that what Steve Bannon says matters as a first order of importance to the Trump administration?

[Steve Bannon]

I think it's generally, I think it's, I think it's kind of what you try to do with News Nation is that we provide, I provide a platform for the strongest voices in maga, whatever that vertical is of doing, like Mike Davis. You know so many of the people. Scott Besson was a contributor for us. Peter Navarro was a co host for us. Russ vote came on about every week starting in 2021. You know, Mike Davis, the viceroy really found Mike. I knew Mike from the first administration. We gave him a platform. So what we. Julie Kelly, if you look at every vertical, whether that's finance and economics, whether it's national security, whether it's, it's taking on the administrative state and the deep state, we try to provide the cutting edge news and information to understand that our mission here is human agency. The only way we can move forward is to empower people and to empower people to take action. It's kind of what I've been, we've been very much, Chris, watching the AOC Bernie tour throughout the United States. We're drawing these massive crowds and you can see the Democratic Party, I think, is very much the smartest. People in it are getting back to having to energize citizens that have those beliefs, empower them, give them information and drive it.

[Chris Cuomo]

Do you think Bernie and AOC are a bad sign for you or a good sign for you?

[Steve Bannon]

I think it's a good sign for the country. I think it's also my big criticism or observation is that the Democratic Party, I, as you know, I come from an Irish Catholic Democratic Party family, union family, huge Kennedy, you know, Kennedy folks. The mention of a name Republican or Richard Nixon in my household was like as close, not a mortal sin, but a, you know, a venial sin. It was not good. And they're classic Reagan Democrats that came back really during the Vietnam War and then, then with President, President Reagan with the, the Democratic Party walked away from the working class. They walked away from really populist nationalism, which was the backbone of quite frankly, your father, besides some of his liberal, more liberal cultural views, was a very much a person that looked at the middle class and the working class as his primary constituency, not the, not the elites. And it'd be interesting, your father today where he would fall out in the political sphere with people like Bobby Kennedy and Tulsi Gabbard and even Donald Trump, who was a Democrat back in the old days in New York, and what this new realignment that we're working on means. The one thing I've seen about AOC and Bernie is that there's a huge thirst on the Democratic Party for populism and getting back to taking on the oligarchs. When you actually see the speeches and actually see the talks, they're really talking about, you know, climate change and DEI and Gaza. They're not getting to the heart of it. They're not getting to the heart of what the oligarchy has done to this country. They're not delivering the punch. But you can see out there that people are looking for a populist solution. They're looking for a populist nationalist solution. And this is what I've been arguing for years. The country, two thirds of the country, well, can. Can come together around these basic economic ideas of how we save the working class and how we rebuild the middle class. And I think that that is our. Our great challenge. And of course, you know, it's a fight every day. And the two parties are our concern. The Republican Party, as you see, we're raising up that you have to tax the wealthy, of which the war room is the driving force of that upper bracket is just not going to get an extension of Trump's tax cuts. And I actually think later, maybe even potentially have increased taxes, is the blowback we've gotten on the party is unbelievable.

[Chris Cuomo]

So you're saying you should tax the rich or you should not tax the rich?

[Steve Bannon]

Oh, you have to. No, you have to.

[Chris Cuomo]

So, yeah, they're not gonna like that, but that's part of the point. I think you give Trump too much shine in this regard. You see him giving a break to the automotive guys who gave him money, to the Apple guy who gave him money. His tax structure was overweighted to the rich. The tariff stunt that he's doing, which I'm fine with. Conceptual.

[Steve Bannon]

Wow. Wow, Chris.

[Chris Cuomo]

But come on, you know, he pays tariffs. It's a regressive tax, not a progressive tax.

[Steve Bannon]

No, no, no, no. First off, first off, there's no sign. We did this in China in 18 and 19. The prices went up. You're by. By. By repeating the talking points. You're acting like a running dog for the lords of easy money on Wall Street. That. That is the. That is the established orders. Oh, you can't have tariffs because this is increased tax. What? This is Milton Friedman.

[Chris Cuomo]

It says a tariff is an increased tax.

[Steve Bannon]

Okay, well, hold it.

[Chris Cuomo]

Not a, not a big.

[Steve Bannon]

Now you're, now you're repeating. No, but he's a, he's a, he's an Austrian school of economics. Milton Friedman's very good on some things, but terrible on others. He's not a populist. He's not an economic nationalist that says you have to. He would disagree totally with any type of protectionist policies that try to bring industry back to this country. We have a central problem and this is why we have these massive budget deficits, okay? Because the federal spending at certain level is actually needed, like on Medicaid. The reason Republicans are not going to actually be, which I've been arguing for years, are not going to be able to take a meat ax to Medicaid. Why there's so many of the MAGA families that need Medicaid. Why? Because the jobs in this country don't pay enough.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's right.

[Steve Bannon]

And the corporate cause we've gone to a service industry, Chris.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's right.

[Steve Bannon]

The whole point of, well, brother, you're agreeing with, don't say it's a tax. You need these to bring industry, you need these to bring industries back to the United States. We are not going to bring back and rejuvenate them. Become a manufacturing superpower again with high value added manufacturing jobs that can employ whether a man or a woman as a single family provider of an income like my dad as a lineman for the phone company could send five kids to Catholic school and have my mom as a homemaker the entire time off of being, you know, basically a blue collar guy, eventually a lower white collar guy for the phone company.

[Chris Cuomo]

I agree with you.

[Steve Bannon]

You don't, you don't agree with me. You don't agree with you.

[Chris Cuomo]

Just the ambition.

[Steve Bannon]

But Chris, you do. But tariffs are a central part. This is what Alexander Hamilton. This was the whole American plan. This is reports on manufacturers, which is just as sacred to us almost as the Declaration of Independence to say if you want to build a manufacturing base and not just be yeoman farmers, you've got to basically have industries here to do it. This whole thing, I don't have any problem with that.

[Chris Cuomo]

It's about how you, how do you.

[Steve Bannon]

So when you look at China, how are you going to do it? How is she going to do it? There's other issues.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'll give you ideas.

[Steve Bannon]

Go ahead.

[Chris Cuomo]

You look at China. All right, first of all, look, the tariff history is very, is very easy for people to access. Our trade imbalance with China is not because of anything to do with Tariffs. It's about the WTO and how we responded to them getting into the wto and in fact, the trade deficit increased while they were systematically having to reduce their tariff structure. Now, can tariffs be a tool in the box? Yes. I'm not saying absolutely, but hold it, hang on.

[Steve Bannon]

Hey, we're saying don't skip over. Go back now you're now Chris Cuomo's finally gotten to something important. Let's go back to the WTO and let's go.

[Chris Cuomo]

Thing to say, condescending thing to say.

[Steve Bannon]

But make your point with the Wall Street. You're the Wall street running.

[Chris Cuomo]

No, you're characterizing my comments to diminish them. But they are my own. But go ahead.

[Steve Bannon]

I'm not, I'm not.

[Chris Cuomo]

Go.

[Steve Bannon]

I'm not.

[Chris Cuomo]

What did I, what did I gloss over?

[Steve Bannon]

The. Okay, you glossed over the trade deficit. The trade deficit is absolutely central here. And you're right. How did they, how did they get into. Think about it for a second. How do we have Tiananmen Square in 1989.

[Chris Cuomo]

Right.

[Steve Bannon]

And the next thing you know, you cut to, you cut to the Clinton years. And it was not just the Clintons. It wasn't Bob Rubin, how I used to work for. Right. It wasn't, it was, it was both parties. It was the Bush hunter in the bush 41 that sends Bob Rubin to.

[Chris Cuomo]

Good man.

[Steve Bannon]

Good man. Don't agree with all his politics, but one of the best secretaries of treasury we've ever had and somebody I've strongly recommended, Scott Besson reach out to and make sure he gets his wisdom of what he did, particularly the surpluses he helped with Newt Gingrich develop in the 90s that that trade allowing China in and basically shipping 5 million high paying jobs, manufacturing jobs in those 10 or 15 years to China has created the economic dilemma we have today. That is 25 trillion dollars, the 25 trillion dollar trade deficit, which 18 trillion is directly associated with China, the 30 trillion dollar really stealing of intellectual property, which not just was espionage, we actually gave it to.

[Chris Cuomo]

That is true too.

[Steve Bannon]

Right. Okay. That leads to your, that leads to your, your $36 trillion debt and the $2 trillion annual deficits we have that if we don't stop, we're finished as a country. The model we have today is unsustainable. And here's the thing. Under even President Trump right now, in the first six months of this year, the trade, the deficit, the budget deficit is $1.3 trillion. And I said on the show today, doing the math, we're going to have because we agreed with the CR to take Biden's budget and Pelosi's budget and just kick the can down the road on September 30th, we're going to have a $2.5 trillion deficit for this fiscal year. This is financial and economic insanity. The working class are the folks paying for it. They're the 9 million people that haven't worked in two jobs, some three jobs that are going to credit card debt. So you and I can reason together. How do we do what do we have the solution for that is not to service economy. The solution is not everybody needs to learn to code, particularly with AI coming and cutting out all those entry level coding jobs. The solution is that we're going to have to have a forcing function to force manufacturing jobs back here. And Chris, the established order of Wall street, the global corporatists and the apartheid state of Silicon Valley are arrayed against that because this is how they've made so much money. This is how the oligarchy. So to attack the oligarchy, let's you and I reason together and attack the oligarchy. And the way we do that is we set up with tariffs and you're right other tool to bring manufacturing jobs back here to the United States because right now we don't have the ability to go forward. This financial crisis you just saw the bond market started to freeze up last week. And I tell people, look at Liz Truss. The bond market has turfed out more governments than howitzers. And we're getting into a situation where the alternatives for the not just President Trump and his administration, for the American people are being narrower and narrower and narrow. And we'll be responding to the global bond market and the dollar will be under pressure not being the prime reserve currency. If that's going to happen, that's going to be chaotic. And the people they're going to pay are lowered down the food chain as they're paying today.

[Chris Cuomo]

I agree with, I agree with all of the concerns.

[Steve Bannon]

I agree with all the concerns. Then you're with me on terrorists, brother. Thank you.

[Chris Cuomo]

But here's the thing. I think that there's a difference between the goal analysis and the means analysis. Here's what's wrong with how Trump did this. And this isn't just me. This is all of our friends that are institutional investors and are on bond side and are captains of industry. They tell you the same things they're telling me, I'm sure, which are. He didn't have a plan. Okay. He didn't communicate this well in advance and he is inconsistent and that breeds uncertainty and he has been offensive to people. So now you've got a little bit of a personality vibe going with the EU and how it makes them feel about how they should respond to him. So there's, there are multi factors here going on. It's not that tariff, don't tariff. That's not what I'm saying. But the idea that you are a tariff structure away from getting everything done that you just articulated is not going to happen. What I'm saying, brother, when you look at China, but here's the piece.

[Steve Bannon]

Go ahead.

[Chris Cuomo]

When you look at China, what are the biggest reasons that they have advantages over us that we can control? Right? Because the CCP doesn't give a shit about its people. They don't give a shit about their currency. They don't have to worry about elections. They don't have to worry about all of the things that are the environment.

[Steve Bannon]

The environment.

[Chris Cuomo]

They don't care about any of that. It's all of the things that we value here, they don't have to value. Okay? They invest in STEM and in industries and in a way that we don't even discuss. You want to build. Bannon and Cuomo decide to go into business and they're going to build and AI related or New Economy related concern, and we go to the government, they'll underwrite it there. They will go to their teaching academies that they have where they're putting out four and five times per capita the STEM students that we are. And they say, great, we'll get you the workers, you have to train them. We'll underwrite the business. And we're not doing any of that.

[Steve Bannon]

Hang on, hang for a second here. So first off, what we've done today, and folks should understand, we're essentially, I think now in an embargo of China and the United States. And I think people better understand this. We are now engaged in what they've been doing to us for 20, 25 years called economic warfare, unrestricted warfare. We're engaged now in. The Nvidia announcement on the licensing deal is escalatory to the fact that I think I make it maybe the moral equivalent of cutting, not quite, but maybe cutting off the Japanese of oil In August of 1941, the Chinese have just announced that cutting it off from rare earths, right? They're going to cut us off from shipment and magnets and they're going to cut us off from ball bearings, which I say, hey, I talk about the 8th Air Corps over Germany all the time. They're going after the ball bearing plants. That's how critical ball bearings are. The what you talk about in stem. Let's just isolate that. Remember in the apartheid state of Silicon Valley which the progressive Democrats allowed to happen because all those guys are progressive Democrats. And I don't care how much they brought out after we won on November 5 and how much they're hanging around Mar a Lago. In federal court today, ftc, President Trump's administration and people who are as anti monopolistic as ever in this thing have literally taken Lina Khan's, what she did in cleaning up the lawsuit Trump brought in his first term. And she is magnificent. And nobody in the Democratic Party or the progressive movement had her back. Back. Zuckerberg's in court today for being a monopolist. And they're going to break up Facebook. I'm telling you, this is going to happen. And President Trump did not blink to do it. The oligarchs in Silicon Valley have all the STEM education. We've turned the elementary schools in the country into STEM factories, okay? The problem is African Americans and Hispanic kids can't get into the state university's computer science and engineering schools. I went before going to Harvard, I went to a land grant university that today, I don't know, 75 or 80% of those billets and slots are taken by South Asians or folks from China. And the reason is they're prepared, their governments are prepared to pay full freight of the 30 or $40,000 a year. And in state, tuition's lower. This is why Silicon Valley is an apartheid state. This is what H1B visas, the scam that they've used to bring indentured servants from India who these people they pay.

[Chris Cuomo]

That has to be addressed.

[Steve Bannon]

But this is the whole part of the oligarchy. But once you take care of that, you don't need massive government programs. We do it through public education. You do it to the university almost.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm fine if it's only private.

[Steve Bannon]

If you just open it up right now. If we stop the oligarchs from saying on HB1B visas, because I've asked a million times, I said, please show me of the millions of H1B visas that are here. Show me for any American citizen, regardless of their ethnicity or race, show me a billet that the guy, that the person taking the job has a higher education or better or better job experience. It doesn't exist. That's why they've never shown one.

[Chris Cuomo]

I don't have, I don't, I don't have the same focus of the outside versus inside where the workers are come from. Of course it would be better if they're sourced from the American citizenry than from outside the American citizenry. I'm fine with that. But I'm talking about moving the blame structure to the side for a second in terms of what will make our middle class what it was when you and I grew up in it.

[Steve Bannon]

Bring manual. What was New York City when, when your father was coming up through New York City after the war in the 40s and 50s and 60s, New York City was a manufacturing, manufacturing.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm just.

[Steve Bannon]

Hang on, hang on. Milton Friedman and these people, Paul Ryan and the, and, and guys on the left, they take it like this is the second law of thermodynamics, that this is a part of physical, it's a physical property that the jobs left. It's a physical property you can't manufacture like manufacture paradise.

[Chris Cuomo]

It's a choice.

[Steve Bannon]

It's not. It's exactly so I'm just saying that's the right word. And the choices and the incentives were all made so that the lords of easy money on Wall street, the global corporatist and Silicon Valley, forget Hollywood, they weren't that powerful. Those three massive institutions of money and power in the modern America roles had the decision and they made a decision over time to ship to Lao Beijing the slave labor of the Chinese people. As you said, the CCP doesn't care about.

[Chris Cuomo]

They don't care about it.

[Steve Bannon]

They don't care. And look at, look at. They work 20 hours a day for women. It's a horrible environment. They dump stuff everywhere. The CCP cares about one thing, concentrated power. Just like they're the ultimate last dictatorship of the 20th century, right? And this is the war we're in, Chris.

[Chris Cuomo]

And so is the main with all of these.

[Steve Bannon]

Hey, one more thing I just want to say about reciprocity because you said at the beginning he didn't think it through in reciprocity. President Trump is agreeing with Chris Cuomo. He's saying it's not just tariffs. In fact, he's saying it's not tariffs alone because sometimes the tariff structure doesn't look that bad. Like with the ccp it is all the non tariff. It's the counterfeiting, the currency manipulation, the non tariff barriers, all the games that are played. You add all that's what reciprocity means. Now was President Trump and Peter and everybody as articulate and maybe give enough time to socialize this for.

[Chris Cuomo]

No.

[Steve Bannon]

Maybe, maybe not. But eventually, Chris, you have to have this fight. And you're right, it's not simply tariffs. That's part reciprocity. It's not a tariff war. This is what reciprocity means. And guess what, Chris, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, India are all stacked up like over LaGuardia on a Friday night to meet with Besson and Jameson Greer, the trade republic.

[Chris Cuomo]

They're meeting with China, too, though they.

[Steve Bannon]

Are meeting with Trump. But hey, Wall Street Journal reported today, part of our deal is that, hey, if you're going to do a deal with us, you want access to this premium market, you're going to have to give us a priority. And we want to downsize your relationship with China, which all those guys are begging to do, because they know what the CCP is. It's a black hand that will crush them.

[Chris Cuomo]

They understand. But then you could have before you.

[Steve Bannon]

But back to the reciprocity. Chris, he the reason it just wasn't some terror. He started with the tariffs of the 25% for automotive, et cetera, but he kept saying and kept saying, I'm talking about reciprocity, which is a level playing field. 90% or 80% of the reciprocity is what you're arguing. It's not an exact tariff. It's all the mechanisms they use.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm fine with that.

[Steve Bannon]

Powerful.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm fine with that.

[Steve Bannon]

And all in all the countries coming over here, not one country has come publicly and say, we don't know what Trump's talking about. Trump's. This is more Trump just being Trump. All of them saying, okay, we got it. We may not agree with your calculation and your formula. We're prepared to sit down and get into serious discussions. And we're going to. And we'll. We'll figure.

[Chris Cuomo]

I just think they would have done that without this stunt, period, as royal, Chris, Because I don't believe the tariffs were ever intended as a fixed tax structure. They were always a tactic and they were a stunt to get people to come to the table. I just don't think it was necessary. But that's a political choice, and he made his political choice. I'm just saying that.

[Steve Bannon]

No, hang on, hang on a second. You know, because your father's expert this and your brother what a forcing function is, people are just not going to sit there to get things. You have to have a forcing function to force them.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's an assumption.

[Steve Bannon]

Or to do something.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's an assumption. And maybe you're right, maybe you're not. Now, we Won't know because he went this way.

[Steve Bannon]

Why? Why? How would you. How would Chris Cuomo then get the world? He's trying to reorganize the commercial relationships of the world.

[Chris Cuomo]

Right.

[Steve Bannon]

To put America first and particularly put America's citizens first. Because the globalist that always looked for sending capital right to the place that would have the cheapest labor and the lowest environmental standards. Right, right. They always went there to change that commercial relationship.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, he gets it. He gets it. He does it. He makes all his stuff in China for a reason also. Right.

[Steve Bannon]

Let's leave his. No, his policy. I don't know. I haven't followed that. I fail to believe that. I fail to believe that. You fail to believe these, but these, these, these latter. Never believe anything. Chris Cuomo told me on.

[Chris Cuomo]

Let's find me something coming back sells that he doesn't make in China. Have one of your guys Google it.

[Steve Bannon]

I think it's a lot. I think so. I think it's a lot. He. Well, I don't think he sells anything now he's president, but I think when.

[Chris Cuomo]

He buys up his merchant, his sneakers.

[Steve Bannon]

All this shit, I think that. I think the Bible's. I think the Bible's American made.

[Chris Cuomo]

Do you?

[Steve Bannon]

I have no idea.

[Chris Cuomo]

Okay. That's not my point. I'm not here to condemn Trump. What I am is I'm agreeing with these ambitions. I'm just saying I think there's more to it. And it's not that big government is the.

[Steve Bannon]

Give me an example. How you gonna give me a forcing function? How you gonna do it?

[Chris Cuomo]

Here's. Here's the pushback. I don't know that you needed this kind of forcing function to go to the people that you're talking about and saying, I'm telling you things are about to change. Do you want to sit and meet and be part of it, or do you want me to put it on you? What do you want? And I think that he would have had the same yield without what we had to live through in the markets recently. Okay.

[Steve Bannon]

Hey, hang on one second. Okay, let's go back in time in history. When she came over, we had a meeting in Mar a Lago, and it was agreed to that we're gonna work at a different relationship. Gary Cohen and the guys took it for kind of the globalist perspective for 100 days and came back with Trump in June of that year with their thing. And Trump says, we're not doing that. That's the old way. I need something deeper. This is when Peter Navarro and Stephen Miller, particularly Bob Lighthizer and myself, to agree, got involved with Lighthizer and for two years, two years they walked on, worked on a very fundamental and comprehensive deal, as you remember, all the way to May of 2019 that would take care of what we call the seven original sins of how the Chinese Communist Party run, particularly state owned industries, what they do with Lao Beijing, labor, environmental, all that. After two years of negotiation in a draft form which is going to be agreed upon and then signed sometime in the summer of 2019, Wan Shishan and Xi, after meeting with Putin at a belt and road conference, came back and said, you know what? We're not interested that that deal would integrate us into basically the global economy is run by the United States of America. It would make us subservient to the foreign devils. We're not going to do it. We're in fact we're going to have a break technologically. We're going to decouple from you guys, we're going to block Facebook and Google and all these guys. We're going to build our own giants, which led to things like TikTok also Deep Sea at the very early stages. We want to have a total break from the west because we think our system's better. They then declared a people's war against the United States, which really went to economic war with us. And that's where we've been for the last couple years. And people have been in denial. Even the Biden administration tried to do a little, but it's not enough. Okay, President Trump, because the center of this, the center of this has always been about China, right? The other nations in the eu.

[Chris Cuomo]

Look, Mitt Romney was right when he said it all those years ago when people played it as a gaffe about who our biggest enemy was. And he said China. What, what I'm saying is. Well, first of all, if we look just at what the net effect has been of what, by the way, just.

[Steve Bannon]

A point of order. I think Mitt Romney said the wrong way. I think Mitt Romney in the debate said Russia. I think it was President Obama that actually said the 1980s are calling and want their foreign policy back. Obama was the guy that tried to have the pivot to Asia away from the Pentagon CENTCOM mentality, of which we're still working on the apparatus in this country, the Wall street apparatus, all of it in the military. The military has been totally tied to the Middle East. No one's wanted to confront the Chinese Communist Party. The oligarchs are making too much money The Pentagon doesn't see it as a. The Pentagon doesn't see it as a big land war that you don't need big army. This is why we're having this crazy debate internally about Persia and its nuclear weapons.

[Chris Cuomo]

Right?

[Steve Bannon]

Right. Now, Obama, as much as President Obama, tried to do a pivot to. He got the Pentagon to forward deploy one Marine brigade to Darwin, Australia. And he will tell you that of everything he tried to work on, that was the hardest and that's the one he had the least success in because of the embedded nature of the American elite about the Chinese Communist Party.

[Chris Cuomo]

Right.

[Steve Bannon]

And this is something now that's coming up and we are engaged in a great economic war of two systems. These systems are incompatible.

[Chris Cuomo]

I agree with what, I agree with what you're saying in terms of what the dynamic is. I'm just saying China has yielded nothing in this current period. They've done nothing but restrict what we need. So what are they saying? You want to play the tariff game? We will play it with you when we believe we can win. So the idea that this was the masterstroke, I don't agree with that.

[Steve Bannon]

I think. But hang on. That's why I think we got the turfs 124% now. So we're in. I think we're in a total trade embargo almost between the two nations. And hey, well, that's not good, by the way. Well, how do you bring it to a head? The Chinese Communist Party are just not going to.

[Chris Cuomo]

Hold on a second. Hold on. I keep not getting able to say this one thing. First of all, we're both right. Romney is notorious.

[Steve Bannon]

You're right because you're agreeing with me, but I accept it.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah, I know. And that is a big component for you. Typical Irish guy. The, the, the. Romney had two evolutions, right? The first one was what you mentioned with Obama. They want their policy back then in 2022 when he went to revisit, he was like, well, here's why I said it about Russia, but now it is China. So he said two evolutions. We were talking about different ones. But that's.

[Steve Bannon]

Hang on. But this is a very important point. Let's talk about that. 10 years of Mitt Romney. It shows you. Mitt Romney was running for president, United States. He was the flower of the Republican Party in the Republican Party's mentality. When he said that, not only was he wrong in 2012, he was dead wrong in 2012. But for your audience, this shows you how the establishment of both parties were thinking this When Obama said China, it's not like a lot of Democrats jumped up and said, hey, you're right, right. The person who was the fiercest Chinese warrior, and even when I was in the White House, her staff was the fiercest warrior for China was Nancy. Against China was Nancy Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi went to Tiananmen Square back in the 90s. I think she almost got arrested one time on some commemoration. So she was the fiercest. But the Democratic establishment, particularly the money interests of Wall street, the global economy.

[Chris Cuomo]

You gotta be pro China if you want the money. If you're playing with the money guys, you gotta be pro China because that's where they make it.

[Steve Bannon]

That, that, that decade of Mitt Romney and his awakening, right? Which you sit there and go, hey, he's not an average citizen, he gets all the access to this. Particularly ran for president and being in the Senate is guess what dude, it's too slow. The reason that the working class is in the shape it's in is that the leadership of the nation, number one Wall street, the corporatists in Silicon Valley actively worked, actively worked to build an existential threat and empower an existential threat for money, not for ideology, for money.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes.

[Steve Bannon]

Hey, there are 30 pieces of silver in the Mitt Romney's of the world. Quite frankly, bro, you don't get a pass because you're too fricking stupid to ask the hard questions that had to be asked. You're supposed to be a leader. Hell, you want to be the. When he, in 2012, he just gave a dead wrong answer. Russia was not the biggest geostrategic threat in 2012. Wasn't even close. It was China and radical Islam. Right? Russia is just, just a, kind of a backwater at the time. And this is what the problem with the country is, that the elites in this country, it's not just the greedy and venal, they're dumb, okay? They're dumb. And we've been led by dumb people and stupid people and people that didn't want to put it on the line. And that's why I'm so proud of MAGA and I'm so proud of the anti ccp. Remember I'm the only civilian in history to ever be fully sanctioned by the Chinese Communist Party. Two minutes after Biden was was inaugurated. Matt Pottinger, Peter Navarro, Mike Pompeo and myself. And those three were government officials. And I'm proud of that because I don't believe that the Chinese Communist Party is the legitimate government of Lao Baijing. Or the Chinese people. And guess what? Lao Baijing agrees with me.

[Chris Cuomo]

So look, if everybody is on the same page about what needs to change, the debate has to be about how. And again, the idea that you're a tariff away from this all being fixed is not true. But you're also not saying that.

[Steve Bannon]

I agree that. I agree with you on that.

[Chris Cuomo]

I just think you have to look at the other spaces also about, well, how do you get them back? Well, you're not going to just tariff them into coming back. You have to make this the right place with the people that they need. And it's going to have a lot of different components to it. That's all I'm saying. And it's going to need that. Right now we got almost half a million open manufacturing jobs in this country, you know.

[Steve Bannon]

Well, it's gotta have people to fight. Look, we do have. Hang on. A lot of this is just. And this is what Peter Navarro and people are talking about bringing, you know, the high tariffs on the cars. It's one thing to assemble with the previous. What President Trump's done and others have done previously is at least to force some of these guys back here to assemble. But that's not manufacturing. What I call high value added manufacturing.

[Chris Cuomo]

Agreed.

[Steve Bannon]

That is the 5 million jobs. And so here. But here's the problem on every show you see and in the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times of London, who are neoliberal, neocons who believe Milton Friedman, Milton Friedman's thing Elon Musk put up today, the pencil. The pencil has parts from many different countries, Right? That simplistic mentality is going to lead you to be impoverished. The reason that if you look at New York City, look at our great cities, the trillions of dollars we spent overseas underwriting the security of this apparatus, this global trading apparatus, which the American citizens do do, plus the ability not to have high value added manufacturing and not have great paying jobs is led us to a situation that our working class has taken the brunt of this in the middle class is 100 days away from being laid off. If they're ever laid off. They're all sitting good until the hundredth day after laid off. And then they start panicking.

[Chris Cuomo]

If you're lucky.

[Steve Bannon]

And I pay because the savings rate.

[Chris Cuomo]

Is so low and the credit is so high.

[Steve Bannon]

100.

[Chris Cuomo]

And we allow people to charge things. I mean, not just because we're both still Catholic, but the amount am I.

[Steve Bannon]

Going to make, am I going to make Chris Cuomo not just MAGA adjacent, you May get to actually be a populist nationalist on your economic side. Once we convert you on that, we got you for everything else.

[Chris Cuomo]

Chris, first of all, listen, don't flatter yourself. Second, these are not Trumpian ideas. My father was talking this talk, you know.

[Steve Bannon]

No, no, no, but that's okay, Hang on. But that's what was lost. That's what the Democratic Party lost.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's Democrats than me. I mean, I've always.

[Steve Bannon]

No, I know that, but. No, but I'm saying the party. You said the part. The party.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm not a party guy. I'm not a party guy.

[Steve Bannon]

I know this, but I'm saying the Democratic Party, this is why they're in a jam. They became the party.

[Chris Cuomo]

They are the credentials. They became the party of the elites and the cognoscenti and the liberals that are easy to dislike because they keep telling you how stupid you are. And they fixate on things that fail on two levels. One, they're not majority concerns, and two, they are fundamental violators of the live and let live edict of American culture. And that's where the left got themselves in trouble. You know, there used to be, you and I were raised with a mind your own business mentality of, you know, like, hey, did you hear what's going on in the gate? Gossip is one of. Not only is it an arguable original seven deadly sin, but it's one of the ten Commandments, okay? Don't bear false witness. Just shut, shut up. Whatever happens in that house, happens, okay? Until it spills over in our house, leave it alone. I don't care what they do. I don't care how they do it. The left lost sense of that. That's their problem. For me, when you look, the reason I didn't like Trump talking about the Gilded Age, he should have been talking about the Post World War II Golden Age, which is really what you're talking. And you know, and again, that's his problem. He's not my problem. What I see is capitalism is great. That's who we are. That's our national religion as, as bridled by our law and order through the Constitution. Okay, great. You have an overweighting on the top right now. Everything has been skewed for the top. They have been the beneficiaries of everything. And it is capitalism for them on the upside and a socialism backstop for them on the downside. Meaning big Walmart gets to distribute profits because we've.

[Steve Bannon]

We've socialized the risk.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's right.

[Steve Bannon]

So that everybody bails them out and they keep all the upside.

[Chris Cuomo]

They get to distribute profits. Okay, we can't with that. Okay, okay, fine. But Walmart, the employees are part of a social safety net that we're paying for them while they get to distribute profits. That's wrong.

[Steve Bannon]

Bernie Sanders says it's why the. It's why the. It's why the. It's why the bus budget deficits are so. Well, just back to President Trump. One thing I think what he's saying that the old age is that but at that time what funded the US Government from our founding all the way up to the early 20th century was a tariff structure. Say if you want access to this premium market, which he's kind of saying today you gotta pay, right? So he looks back to McKinley and these guys. I realize it's a different time, but the concept's the same that hey, this is a premium market. If you want in here, you either move your manufacturing jobs back or if you don't, you're going to pay, you're going to pay a premium to get here.

[Chris Cuomo]

Now how do you deal with the fruit of that which is people saying well Steve, I don't want to pay $700 for what I'm paying $75 for right now. I want cheap stuff you're going to.

[Steve Bannon]

Work through with competition and other things you're going to work through. Those price increases are never going to come. Just like we were all warned people were hair was on fire back in 2018 when President Trump started putting the terrorists in against China and people said everything's going to be increased. We actually had lower cost in 2019. So look, this is going to be a process. There's no doubt about that. But you have to do this if you want to have a country that.

[Chris Cuomo]

Is when is the America did anything that required the shortest of short term pain. We could, we, we should have been. Look at the pandemic. We, we couldn't even do anything that involved not doing what you want to do or not getting what you want to get when you get it, whether you can afford it or not, is punished in America.

[Steve Bannon]

I think Americans right now see we don't have an alternative system. The $2 trillion deficits that we're going to continue to run unless we have significant spending cuts, unless we start to Scott Bessant and President Trump get a higher growth rate that gives more tax revenues. We get significant spending cuts. And to fill that gap we do have, we let the tax cuts for the wealthy expire to go back to the Original the snapback from 36 to 37 to 39% or actually argue go to 40%. Unless you do that, the system we have now is going to continue to embed inflation as you have to roll over the $36 trillion of debt which is increasing at basically.

[Chris Cuomo]

In changing the architecture of the top tier. He called it a middle class tax cut. It was just overweighted to the top. And then he punished New York because he was mad at us by taking away our state and local tax exemptions, which made it even more expensive for people in my position who are high end income earners in New York State. But he did that on purpose.

[Steve Bannon]

Well, maybe make it as an incentive to people to change out the governments there to get to administrations and governments that actually are not so high taxing. Right. And actually bear the fruits of freedom on those, on those local guys.

[Chris Cuomo]

You talk about an incentive structure. That's fine. I'm just saying I don't see Donald Trump agreeing with Steve Bannon that, yeah, we gotta tax the rich more.

[Steve Bannon]

It's. Hang on, hang on, Chris. It's already been leaked. This is why today Larry Kudlow and Steve Moore yesterday and Sean Hannity on his radio show is going nuts saying it leaked out that President Trump is open to the concept. And behind closed doors, senators and congressmen are saying, hey, we just don't see how the math works, that if we extend the tax credits, particularly the fact that President Trump has promised no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, and the big enchilada, no tax on Social Security. If you add that, we're another, I don't know, 250, 500 billion short every year.

[Chris Cuomo]

That's right.

[Steve Bannon]

That gap has to be made. Then just the math works out that the logic is, and you got to take care of the entrepreneurs, you got to make sure that the entrepreneurs that are building businesses aren't caught up in this. But you have to go with that upper bracket and particularly the people that are quite wealthy. It's called a snapback. It goes from 37 to 39%. I actually think it should go to 40%. I argued this, this is the exact thing I argued in the Oval Office in June of 17 when the Wall Street Journal came after me and three progressive Democrats sat there and countered it.

[Chris Cuomo]

Democrats would be fine.

[Steve Bannon]

Steve Mnuchin. Oh, no, no. Okay, let's. When you say that, let's go back to the beginning months of the Biden administration. They put forward a tax plan that would go after and tax the oligarchs Tax the billionaires.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

It didn't even get out of committee. They had the Senate, they had the House, and they had the White House. It went nowhere. Why? Because the puppet masters in the Democratic Party are all the guys on Wall street and the corporate system. They control the credential class that you see on cable TV every day.

[Chris Cuomo]

Democrats talking about Shawnee of taxing the end all the time. Republicans never do.

[Steve Bannon]

This is what's going to break. This is what I keep telling people. The biggest sign that we can show on economic populist economic nationalism of working for working class and the middle class. The most important thing we can do is not extend the tax breaks to the wealthy. The upper bracket. The upper bracket. And I hear talk about incentives. One of the reasons we have this spending is because the donors, as you know, control Washington, D.C. both the Democrats and Republicans. If you want to get guys all money on time, if you want to motivate people to actually start cutting federal spending and telling politicians this has got to be cut, this thing's ridiculous. Right now, the trillion dollars we spend in the Defense Department and I'm a hawk that was eight years a naval officer. My daughter went to West Point and served in Iraq. So I'm not a dove. You got to cut the defense budget. Can't be a trillion dollars. If you want to incentivize people to do it, you've got to let them pay for it. When they start paying for it, all of a sudden they're going, well, hang on, you're telling me working class people in the middle class got this tax cut and we did? Yeah, exactly what I'm telling you, by the way. Exactly what I'm telling you. Until you start telling these politicians we have to work together to make reasonable cuts, that we have to get together, the country's now on an unsustainable path and trust me, the people down at the bottom are going to pay the most. The people that are the backbone of this nation. Right. Are going to pay the most high.

[Chris Cuomo]

Now to Lance the Boyle, they have been. I mean, look, when we were growing up, right, yeah, Pop went to law school free, by the way. But he went to law school. He was a genius. So St. John's gave him a scholarship. Top of his class, St. John's University as well. Of course, he had to share it with an Irish guy because it was a built in bias there, but that's okay. And then, you know, so he. So he is a little different. But that was the dream. His parents couldn't even read okay. Did not really speak English completely. Who the president says he doesn't want in the country right now. Right? No real skills, no money.

[Steve Bannon]

Will you stop?

[Chris Cuomo]

Come on. That's what he said. He wants him from Norway. He wants, you know, he wants them from Norway. That's him from Norway, Steve. He doesn't want my people here anymore. He doesn't want your people either. It's not like you guys were so smart when you first came over.

[Steve Bannon]

So, you know, when we're still not just hammerhead mix.

[Chris Cuomo]

So when they come in, we used to be able to say that, right? My, my brothers, the family. You know, as you, as you learn, when you get into our stage where you've built your family, you've, you know, you've had your romances, you have your kids, you know, you have your family, your blood, and then you have the family you choose, which might as well be blood. And for me, it's Irish Jews. You know what I mean? It's all ethnics. And our connective tissue has been destroyed by a real misplaced sense of righteousness and culture. But that's for another day. The middle class was everything in this country. Biden understood that. He just, just was too old and really not skilled enough to do anything about it. I don't think that that is anything other than popular. Is fighting for the middle class.

[Steve Bannon]

Can I say something? I think Joe Biden is the biggest phony. He's. He's from Delaware. It's the credit cards. All the corporations are in Delaware with a mailbox because they got an easy federal court up there, right? Delaware is bought and paid for. Joe Biden has been a running dog for the globalists from the beginning. With a happy talk, he goes up to Scranton every now and again and gives. I'm Joe from Scranton. He ain't Joe from Scranton. Listen, just like Mitt Romney doesn't get a pass, Joe Biden doesn't get a pass.

[Chris Cuomo]

Look, I don't think any of them got a pass. I mean, that's my beef about Trump. I mean, the idea that he's a real populist, I just don't buy it. But it doesn't matter to me.

[Steve Bannon]

How can you say that, Chris? He's the. Why does he have this movement that actually is because of you?

[Chris Cuomo]

That's why you guys made him your horse.

[Steve Bannon]

Get out of here. Get out of here. That's absolutely. He has a visceral connection with working class people because he understands in Washington, D.C. out of the room, out of the deal. And he's put working classes.

[Chris Cuomo]

He understands. I don't believe he has a connection. This guy used to not even shake hands. Steve, you and I both remember that he would not shake people's hands because he thought they were dirty. I'm just saying he ain't Mario Cuomo. Okay? He is not a guy who comes from that. I grew up right across the road.

[Steve Bannon]

He's a guy from. He's a guy from Queens.

[Chris Cuomo]

He's from Jamaica State states. And then Fred moved them out onto the island. He's not a guy from Queens. I've never even met anyone who sounds like him, by the way. I don't even know where his accent comes from.

[Steve Bannon]

New York. Chris, can you. Are you going to sit there and deny President Trump going around the country in these rallies?

[Chris Cuomo]

No. It was one of the most misunderstood things that the media. It's uncovered from in 2015.

[Steve Bannon]

But that's because they total connection.

[Chris Cuomo]

But he was. Look, to me, he was playing. He was playing all the hits from Tom Tancredo, but he was a TV celebrity.

[Steve Bannon]

Tom 10 credo.

[Chris Cuomo]

He was a TV celebrity, and the media slept on that. They saw Trump just as how they knew him from New York social culture, and they missed that in America. He wasn't just a celebrity. He was a celebrity for being great at business.

[Steve Bannon]

I know, I know you got to wrap up, but I.

[Chris Cuomo]

No, I'll talk to you all day. I'm loving this. I haven't even asked you what I care about most. Most.

[Steve Bannon]

So. So, you know, people, you know, they talk about, you know, President Trump. I said, In 14 and 21, we had the longest odds of all in 14. The reason I was attracted to him as a candidate is that he would talk in a different vernacular. He didn't use a political nomenclature.

[Chris Cuomo]

Yes.

[Steve Bannon]

He talked about issues that people. And it hit in the solar plexus. Most politicians, when they talk, particularly Republicans, it's so thin with no. No oomph in back of it. You know, the way they talk about Milton Friedman, the way they would talk about tax cuts and the way they would talk about going forward. And you could see they were controlled opposition to the basically neoliberal neocons that ran the country. Trump was totally different. And when he talked, he is an expert in mass communications. That's one of his powers. That's what led to the connection of the American people. I saw it very early on with Dave Bossi and these cattle calls he would do in Iowa, New Hampshire, that Trump connected to people in a way that nobody's Connected. That is the Trump movement. Listen, Trump movement.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm not saying he doesn't know how to sell the message. I'm not saying that. I think he's a brilliant salesman of the message. I think it's his particular genius. I'm just saying it's not organic. And should that matter? No, the policies matter. All that matter are the policies now. The meanness, the attacking the media. The one other thing I wanted to talk to you about, which I really don't understand. Okay. Is the. The marriage of expedience and respecting the Constitution. I don't understand what we're dealing with right now with this Garcia case. I am not stupid enough to argue in favor of an MS.13 guy, okay? Nobody wants gangbangers in their community.

[Steve Bannon]

You are, but you are about to, so go.

[Chris Cuomo]

No, I'm not.

[Steve Bannon]

Not.

[Chris Cuomo]

I have no problem kicking the guy out of the country. But respect the law or do what JD Vance is arguing right now. Change the law. Change the due process requirements for immigration. Change it. You can probably do it by statute. It is already clear in fifth and fourteenth amendment jurisprudence that non citizens do not get the same protections of due process nor equal protection that citizens do. So you have constitutional basis. Change the law. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is you knew the guy had a federal order allowing him in the country legally, and you ignored it because you don't like who he is and threw him out. That is not American. It is un American.

[Steve Bannon]

We can, we. We can debate this another time because they're about. But, but I will tell you, look.

[Chris Cuomo]

At you running away. What did I just say that's wrong? What did I say that's wrong?

[Steve Bannon]

Only everything.

[Chris Cuomo]

Give me one. Just give me one.

[Steve Bannon]

This gets. This gets back to the unitary theory of the executive. And one of the big fights that we're having, you know, President Trump, I think now, has had 170 lawsuits in federal court, all arguing about, guess what? The Constitution is. The powers of the executive as laid out. Okay? Number one, he is the chief executive officer of the US Government. Therefore, on things like impoundments, things like the budget cuts he can do, which he's been taking to federal courts, letting go of executives, even in the Alphabet agencies. He is the art. He is the chief executive and can make those decisions. Number two, he is the commander in chief of the armed forces in a time of a declared emergency or declared war. He is the commander in chief. Number three, he's the chief magistrate and chief law enforcement officer of the US Government. What the courts are doing and trying to do is come in between him and his actions as commander in chief. And I think that'll just have to play out. You see, this is going to play out.

[Chris Cuomo]

You can litigate.

[Steve Bannon]

People on the left say it's a constitutional crisis.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm not saying it's a crisis. I'm saying, here's the part. You don't want to deal with the law as is. You don't have to like it, but you have to follow it or you have to change it. Those are your options. This has nothing to do with the unitary executive. You want to. You want to argue that you can.

[Steve Bannon]

They're coming between him and his actions as commanders.

[Chris Cuomo]

There's no they. I'm talking about this instant case, okay? There is the courts.

[Steve Bannon]

Look, we're trying to come between people, radical federal judges and the Supreme Court. Trying to come between. Trying to come between.

[Chris Cuomo]

Hold on. Let's just listen.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes, sir.

[Chris Cuomo]

His own guys said they made a mistake in deporting this guy because there was a federal order in effect. They admit they made a mistake. They didn't even appeal the decision that eventually. That they originally lost on this guy that gave him. Which I will admit right now, I don't like as a legal mechanism. I get why Reagan changed what he did in 1980 to conform American federal law to this treaty that we had signed about refugees. I get it. I just don't like this. If you don't get asylum, which this guy didn't. He was not allowed asylum. He lost the case. What is this withholding deportation, which is like asylum light. I don't like it, but it is a legal mechanism, so you have to change it. This guy has this legal mechanism in his favor. He won the case. The government lost. They didn't even appeal. And now you're saying you're going to ignore it. You're saying because, yeah, he has powers that go beyond this. No, he does not have a power that goes beyond this. It. Not right now.

[Steve Bannon]

It's. It's. It's in his role as commander in chief on a. On a terrorist criminal element. It's in El Salvador. The El Salvador president said he's not. He's not going to send the guy back. You're going to have. All the Democrats in Maryland are going to go down and Grant and Grant and Grant and grandstand on this.

[Chris Cuomo]

If you can grand stand.

[Steve Bannon]

If you.

[Chris Cuomo]

I don't like the. I'm not over.

[Steve Bannon]

You're driving the grandstanding. It's going to grandstand the American people.

[Chris Cuomo]

I'm saying, respect the law. If you say you respect the law. That's all I'm saying. And it's a very easy fix. The El Salvador's guy is saying what he's saying because that's what Trump wants him to say. The reason the Supreme Court was 90 is because I'm right. The reason they use the word facilitate is because you have no legal right to grab a guy out of El Salvador. They're going to have to give him to you. You, but you're going to have to ask for them. And Trump doesn't want to ask the president.

[Steve Bannon]

The president of El Salvador has done an amazing job of turning that country around. I think you would agree with that, right?

[Chris Cuomo]

In some ways, yes. He's a little heavy, this guy. He's hurting people there, too. And I think that matters. How you change things matters.

[Steve Bannon]

I'd love the podcast. I gotta. I gotta bounce.

[Chris Cuomo]

Here's what I want to talk about next time.

[Steve Bannon]

But. But that's. But the. So it was so engaged. You're so engaging.

[Chris Cuomo]

Well, first of all, Steve, I believe the conversation is the cure. I think the fact that people who listen to the War Room absolute have to believe that I am all kinds of bad. Okay? And I know that my audience, which is oversampled, independent, a lot of critical thinkers, they're gonna say on first blush, what are you talking to that psycho for? And then they'll hear you and they'll say, wow, Steve Bannon has changed. And then if they're really critical thinkers, they'll do research and they'll say, oh, he hasn't changed. That's what they'll say. And the next time I talk to you, and I'll come on the War Room whenever you want, but here's what I want to talk to you about. We'd love reading Jesus wept, right? And it's breaking my heart every chapter that I go through this book about the last seven popes, and all of a sudden they're talking about Francis getting installed. And the author, Phil Shannon, has this whole passage about you where he says, and there is this scruffy man in the middle of all the curia officials anxiously listening on as Francis gave his speech. His name, Stephen Bannon of the United States. And I'm like, what the. And I started. I mean, I knew that you were Catholic and I knew about your organization, and there's this whole read on you in this book that we have to talk about. I don't even know if you're aware of it.

[Steve Bannon]

We have a bureau. We have a bureau. I started a Rome bureau during Breitbart and War room has a Rome bureau. Every other day we go to our Rome bureau chief, international chiefs out of Rome, who's very dialed into this guy.

[Chris Cuomo]

Gives you so much attention in the politics of the Vatican and the COVID up and this and that we gotta do. I'll come on the War Room to talk about it if you want, but I really want to talk to you.

[Steve Bannon]

I would love to because we're also the part of the war room. You know, it's like, it's like sedimentary rock to how you build an audience. One of our big is Traditional Catholics. Latin Mass. Catholics are the are a big part of our audience. Traditional Catholic.

[Chris Cuomo]

I can still hear my father saying it when I go to Mass. I was making my crosses for Palm Sunday and my father used to make me go with him. 6:00 Latin Mass. Whenever he thought I was out drinking. He would make me come with him to 6 o'clock Mass the next day to punish me. Agnus de ques picata mundi. I can hear him singing it in my ears every time I'm in mass. Ass.

[Steve Bannon]

Unbelievable. Anyway, that's a throw, that's a, that's a throwback.

[Chris Cuomo]

I know. I miss it, by the way. I, I, I think they should have just given him the option. But Vatican 2 is a story for another day. Steve Bannon conversation is the cure. You don't have to agree on everything to talk about everything. And you are always welcome on my platforms. I appreciate you taking the opportunity.

[Steve Bannon]

I do want to come back. I do want to come back and talk more about economic nationalism and tariffs because you were on to something important and you called it. It's not simply tariffs, it's everything else. And you're 100% correct. We got it. Those are the elements too. This is, I think, the most important conversation we can enlighten the American people on of exactly what the stakes here, how we got here and how our path out of here is. So I'd love to come back and talk.

[Chris Cuomo]

You are welcome here, you're welcome at News Nation. And if you ever want me on the War Room or anything you're doing, I'm a call away.

[Steve Bannon]

Thank you. Thank you guys. Appreciate you.

[Chris Cuomo]

Look, I know you get more clicks, you get more likes, you get more resonance if you just hunt for gotchas that will trigger the algorithm. But man, what is that making any better? You know that you may not agree with the how, but the what is on point. The problem is the gap between really, really rich and just about losing your shit is really too big. How do you fix, how do you adjust? How do you make it so that there are more who have more? That's the real question and nobody wants to talk about it. But we did today. Thank you for subscribing following joining me for this conversation with Steve Bannon. Thank you for checking me out at newsnation.8p and 11p every weekday night night problems are real. Let's talk about what's real and let's get after it.