← The Chris Cuomo Project
The Chris Cuomo Project
Trump’s SECRET Plan for History’s Greatest Financial Heist (featuring Max from UNFTR)
01:30:46
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:06]
B
Heard what this guy Max from UN FTR is saying about what is about to happen to our economy and how Trump and his sons may be pulling off the biggest grift, as Max calls it, in our history? I'm glad, because that's why I'm here. Chris Cuomo at the Chris Cuomo Project. UN ftr, which stands for on the Republic. Max is how he goes. Max from UN ftr. No last name. Why? Too dangerous? These ideas are too dangerous? No, he's doing it because he's smart and he wants to keep a lot of the nasties out there from getting to the people and things that he values in his personal life. But his ideas are the commodity. Have you ever heard of stablecoin? Have you ever heard of cryptocurrency? Of course you have. But stablecoin does what? It's very different and the Trump Clan is very involved in it and there is legislation that is pending right now. We are right now in the process, three different acts, two or three depending on how you look at it, that could establish new rules for taking the government out of the treasury reserve cash reserve business and giving it to select private players like the Trump Clan. How? What? Yes, it is definitely not made up. How it comes to fruition, its impact you can debate. But Max from UNFTR has been all over this, ahead of the curve, and the Risk is real. What's going on? What could it mean to you? And why the hell isn't anybody talking about it? Here we go. Let's get after it. Max, this is a great pleasure. Thank you for the provoking of thought, of critical thinking, of helping us get a couple layers deeper and unftr. Unfuck the Republic. I love it. I want to know, for the people coming to us today, what is the headline that they have to stay for?
- [03:25]
C
I think the headline here is that we goof on Trump a lot. And I've. I found myself burying the lead of this story. So I'm really happy that you brought this out in this way. To start with, the lead is that he is building a shadow central bank operation with this stablecoin enterprise that he is building on the side and independent. And Congress at the moment is laying the groundwork for him to become, post presidency, one of the chief primary architects of central banking in the world. Accountable to nobody. That's the headline, and it's frightening. I think it's above the pay grade of many of our representatives, frankly, and I don't mean to besmirch them. I think that this is a difficult topic, and it's one of these things that brings in the crypto industry. And so there's a lot of emotion about that. It brings in Fed policy, obviously, there's a lot of emotion about that because you can run the gamut with that of people that want to, quote, unquote, end the Fed, Trump, who wants to control the Fed, and people that want it to remain an independent body. And then what our treasury policy is going to be relative to our enormous debt, and it all kind of plays together. The last line of the lead is if he pulls this off in the way that he is crafting it and architecting it right now, post presidency, the worse the economy gets and the higher the yield on our treasury goes as a result of it, the more money he stands to make.
- [05:02]
B
And.
- [05:02]
C
And to me, that's when I just raised the flag and said, oh, man, this doesn't help anybody anywhere except for Donald and his sons.
- [05:13]
B
So let's figure out what this isn't so that you can explain to us what it is. So this isn't like him selling stakes or sneakers or anything else. Him just cashing in on the cachet of being president in ways that nobody else ever has. This is different.
- [05:31]
C
This is very different. And in fact, I think one of the. We have to give it to him that he is a brilliant tactician in that he throws everything against the wall. So in this mix, you have the Trump meme coins. The Trump meme coins are the is Trump stake. That's the distraction. It's Trump University. It's a get rich quick scheme. There's no there there. The stablecoin regime that he is architecting, building, and it exists already, he's already making money from it is something that Congress is, I think half of Congress is about to unwittingly mint him as a shadow central bank. So these are two very distinct things. This is not the Trump stake. He has that too. And that's part of what is confusing the whole message out there.
- [06:16]
B
What is stablecoin and why do I care if he's doing it versus anybody else?
- [06:23]
C
So it's interesting that they've started the admitted. Whenever the administration starts talking about something that's not on the radar, I think as journalists we should all assume there's something going on there because there's no reason or rationale that they would be talking about it. You know, all of a sudden, set money free and you've got Ted Cruz out there being like, set crypto free and stablecoins and Scott Bessant making the rounds on all the financial channels saying that stablecoins, which already represent the 18th largest buyer of US treasuries, which is something that we kind of need to. Exactly. That's the reaction that I had, is there are more in stablecoin purchases of our Treasuries than Germany buys US Treasuries. Just to kind of put it in context.
- [07:09]
B
So they're buying Treasuries. Like that part is a little bit of a layup. Why would a stablecoin. Because stablecoin tells you what it's trying to be in its name. It's a cryptocurrency that wants to have an anchored valuation, which is what it doesn't have, which is why everybody's afraid of it. That and quantum computers, which may be able to steal your money as a function of its own sophistication. But so buying Treasuries makes sense for a stablecoin vendor because they're trying to anchor the value of it. So if they have a certain amount of money in Treasuries, the Treasuries are a stable anchor for something that wants to be seen as stable. Where does it get janky?
- [07:51]
C
So stablecoins by design are supposed to buy Treasuries. It doesn't have to be ours, mind you. It could buy a store of value US Treasuries happen to be recognized up until this Trump administration as probably the most stable and resilient measure that you could have as a store of value. Gold is another one. There are other currencies and other mixes that some of the stable coins will put into play. So it's a mixed bag of Treasuries along with some gold. But the leading stable coins that exist already in the market, one is called usdc, which is from Circle, and that's, you know, those are theoretically from the United States. Those are our guys. Usdt, which is tether. Tether's a little problematic right now because they just moved their global headquarters to El Salvador to be closer to Bukele. That that in and of itself should raise some flags for, I think, the United States and Treasury, treasury purchases. And then you have the new upstart, which is now the fastest growing one, which is US D1, and that is the Trump family stablecoin. Now, a stablecoin has to purchase a store of value, US Treasuries being the, the best ones to buy so that there's a one to one relationship to it. So that if.
- [09:13]
B
But they buy currencies, they buy gold, they're supposed to buy stable commodities.
- [09:17]
C
Right? These three leading ones are predominantly US Treasuries. So they're buying the dollar. And in an era when the world is beginning to, at least official sources are beginning to walk away from the US Dollar and purchasing our Treasuries, and we see more private sources buying our Treasuries also in. And that's a totally different conversation as to who's actually doing the purchasing, because it's a lot of multinational corporations and offshore accounts, but US treasuries. We just did an auction in August, $25 billion in treasuries, and it didn't go well. But one of the big purchasers of it, thankfully for the Trump regime, was stablecoins, not their stablecoin yet. But that's what Congress is trying to maneuver to make it easier, not just easier, to make sure that these independent stablecoin issuers are the only ones that could do it. So they're trying to move the Federal Reserve out of this position of being, of issuing the currency that matters and trying to have stablecoins represent Treasuries in the global marketplace, to, quote, unquote, reduce friction. Now, the issue here is that stablecoins are in and of themselves, probably a very good invention because they eliminate a lot of very expensive and useless layers in the middle of transactions. So ostensibly they're a good thing for the global economy if there's no embezzlement, if there's no fraud, if the blockchain stays stable and if there's total transparency. So on the one hand you have good actors in Congress are trying to provide that transparency and that's what the genius act was all about. Let's create a framework. But then you have these other two bills that are sitting there that they're taking up as of this new session. And the problematic part there is again and why I appreciate you, you setting this up is that I don't think that there's enough awareness around what the next two bills actually codify into existence.
- [11:17]
B
So I want to talk about that. Obviously, you know, most people wave this off as all right, so it's another financial thing that these guys do and this is how they make money. And I don't even understand derivatives and swaps and ETFs and all this other stuff. How is it any different than any of the other things that, you know, we know happen in high finance?
- [11:40]
C
It essentially privatizes the central bank's, one of the central bank's main responsibilities, which is managing the money supply in our currency. So there's, I think there's consensus right now that when the economy eventually does turn and I've made the argument that we haven't really emerged from the global financial crisis to, you know, for 50% of this country this, the recession never ended. And so when it, when the balance tips over, the, the rest of the economy tumbles. And at that point we're left with all of the cash in this country being somewhere else. It's in corporations pockets, it's in wealthy individual pockets, offshore accounts and what have you. And that's when the Fed put comes into play. They did it during COVID which they had to, they had to pour enormous liquidity, historic liquidity into the market. They had to do it during the global financial crisis. They had to do it actually a couple of times when the overnight repo markets couldn't pay the overnight settlements. That was 2019 was the biggest example of that. They did it of course, in the dot com bubble. So the Fed put is when the Fed pours all of this liquidity into the system. And essentially what we're saying is the Fed's primary tool to be able to flood the current, flood currency into the system is now going to be in private hands. And don't worry, the stablecoin issuers are going to purchase enough treasuries that the US Government is going to be flush with cash all the time. And we need them to stand in because the other countries are walking away from us without asking the question, why are the other countries walking away from the US Dollar right now? What, what's changed in the last, what has it been, eight months that has made the entire fucking world go, nah, pass, you know, so this guy is not only setting us up for complete failure economically and driving the rest of the world away from the, the faith and value in our, in our currency. He's setting himself up to be one of the arbiters of who purchases our Treasuries going forward. And it's mad.
- [13:45]
B
We heard some of this. This is called the sell America trade to people in the investing world, Wall street and otherwise, which is that Trump has started a catalytic effect. Whether it's him, his policies, his demeanor, his words, his tariffs. Tariffs absolutely are part of the mix where people are pulling money out and they're not betting on the growth opportunity of America as a proposition, and that that will have a cascade effect and we're going to keep seeing of it. And he has set us up for a down cycle. Now the counter is max. What down cycle? The stock market's up. All the main metrics that people are familiar hearing about are in the right direction, if not better than they were before him. So why are you saying that the sky is falling?
- [14:37]
C
Yeah, the disconnect between real America and what we see on the, on the business channels or we read in the headlines is, Is pretty staggering. And it's also why the Democrats lost the election, is kind of relying on that everything's okay narrative. Everything, as we know, is absolutely okay for, I will say, the top 10% of the country. And the reason we know that is because the top 10% of the country in terms of income earning, is responsible for 50% of consumer spending. The balance of consumer spending is done on credit. So the reason that we know that the underpinnings of the economy are not healthy is that we are at historically high credit levels. Bankruptcies have increased 11.5% year over year as of August. We know that the student default rates are now skyrocketing as a result of that. We know that personal savings and disposable income has begun to deplete. And so there is this friction between what we see in the stock market, where compounding gains are being made, and we think that it's a reflection of the health of the economy. I'm actually reading, and I'm sure you had to read this, going through schools, Galbraith's you know, the reason for the Great Depression, what happened after the crash of the Great Depression. And I'm not suggesting that we're going to have a crash because we're built very differently than we were back then. But the signs leading into it are the same. The general health of the economy leading into the Wall street crash in the 1920s was very poor and you felt it everywhere on the ground. But the headlines were, you know, sort of pablum. This there was, well, everything's okay because the stock market is crushing it. But it was all built on a tremendous amount of leverage as it is today. The difference today is we have the liquidity to be able to stave off a Great Depression. The question is, will Trump pull that trigger if he drives it into the ground? But the consumer is suffering and that's what the Democrats failed to tap into. And Trump, cagey as he is, was able to sort of surface, even if it was in a backwards sort of way, representing the establishment and everything that's wrong with global finance as he does, but also then saying the system is rigged and that's why you're not doing well. That was pretty much the only message that he needed to kind of clear the hurdles to get back into the Oval Office. But this economy is not. Well.
- [16:56]
B
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- [18:30]
D
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- [18:42]
B
That's cool.
- [18:43]
D
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- [19:03]
B
Well, blame as a, as a married man, you know, this blame is a very powerful dynamic. And what Trump. You know, the main thing that we missed about Trump, and I rarely use the royal we, but I mean it here because I missed it also. And I was one of the guys who won a lot of $1 bets that Trump was gonna beat Hillary Clinton. And why? Because I was covering the rallies and I realized that grievance swings elections. And if you look back, that's when you have your turnout, that's when you have your surprises, that's when you have your changes in party and dynamic is it's always grievance based. It's never that they're for killing it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, so what did we see? He. We got wrong. That celebrity sells in America. And he was not a celebrity to guys from, you know, where you're from and where I'm from, but he was to the rest of the country because they knew him from the Apprentice and he was an amazing businessman and a gazillionaire. And he fires everybody and everybody's on his dick all the time. That's how they knew him. And you know, I didn't know him that way, so I didn't know why anybody else would know him that way. And then once I realized, oh, that's what they see in this guy, that's why they believe everything because he's a big celebrity to them. That was one thing. The second thing is he had an incredible power that some of us try to tap into, but I haven't seen anybody really do it as well yet, which is, Max, I'm telling you, they're fucking you because I'm one of them.
- [20:43]
C
And amazing.
- [20:44]
B
Unlike in the media where when you say that, they're like, yeah, that's why I hate you, Max. I hate all you people. That's why I'm gonna go with somebody who has never had a real journalism job in their life and doesn't know how to report because I hate you. So the system has to die. He did something else which was more familiar to them. And the reason I'm setting it up this way is that this is the hurdle for you and getting the people to understand why this is bad, what you're talking about. Cause it sounds like he's just doing what he's always done, which is I'm really good at the game. Donald John Trump. I know how to make money in their filthy, disgusting world. And so they can't buy me, they can't trick me, they can't tell me anything because I'm one of them. But I hate them too. So he was able to say, I am gold toilets and I won't shake people's hands. Right? Which is how he used to be, right. He was like, didn't want to touch the unclean. But you can trust me because I'm telling you how it is in my world.
- [21:45]
C
Well, and you see that when he shakes hands, you know, it bruises his little hands, right? That's the party line, right?
- [21:51]
B
So that's what the magic was for him. That's how he destroyed established, better suited candidates, was, yeah, you're better suited because you're part of a system that I hate. He is telling me what I always thought, which is this is what you guys do in the country club and he's just deciding to take my side over the other fraternity brothers. And that was his magic. They will think that now as well, which is, well, he's doing the stablecoin. Cuz this is what everybody does. Don't punish Trump for being part of the trend. You know, you're just once again hating on his success. And you know, that's the way people are with Trump. So I'm going to discount it. Why should they not discount stablecoin the way they have everything else that's put money in Trump's pocket?
- [22:45]
C
So the term that has at least everybody in central banking circles and in global finance concerned is seigniorage. And it's a very arcane term that is only used in central banking to describe the revenue model of central banks. So when the Fed makes money, when it issues currency, it makes a little money on that, and when it reinvests it into treasuries, it makes a lot more money on that because there's a spread between the money that obviously they made and then the get back that they get from the Treasuries. It's the. And I think what makes this story so complicated is that the US Government is constantly lending to itself, which is a bizarre relationship. But that is, again, one of the things we have with this exorbitant privilege is that we are the, the monetary supplier to the world. 90% of all business transactions in the multinational space are done still in the US dollar. We can talk about dollar dependency, we can talk about maybe the someday losing that exorbitant privilege. That's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. But I also operate under the idea that Trump is not sick. He's going to live forever, he's never leaving the Oval Office and he's. And if he does, he's setting himself up to be a mast universe because the one thing that I'll give him is that he won't fuck this opportunity up twice. I think Trump 1.0 was utter chaos.
- [24:11]
B
Yeah, he said it total. Remember when Bobby said in one of his first interviews that when he met with Trump, Trump said, you know, I came in here and they all told me who to hire. And I just hired everybody they said to hire. And they were telling me, yeah, you know, so much for the bringing in only the best, so much for draining the swamp. But look, I can't blame. I'm a hater of the game, not the players. And I know that that can be frustrating for people, but I feel the same way when I train in self defense. You know, look, we're not fighting. There are no rules. When I try to push your glasses into the bridge of your nose and your eyeball, don't get mad at me. That's the, that's where we are, you know what I mean? That's what we're doing to each other. So I didn't fault him for that because of my feelings about the system, but that's way too nuanced for people. But you really believe as sophisticated as you are, and people should also check out your contributions. One, you should go to UNFTR and check out where he's coming from. It is now being described as a left progressive platform. And you are seen as one of the guys who doesn't think Trump is gonna leave. Do you think that that is a fair assessment of your work and your disposition towards him?
- [25:23]
C
I see him as somebody who's not gonna leave because I think it's a mistake to wait and to underestimate him. I think we should always be operating under the assumption that he will be in control from, you know, from here on out, whether it is the system that he has dismantled and left us with and that he is running, you know, adjacent to the system, or he just decides I can run for a third term. It's happened in the past. And. And this is where I actually have a question. I apologize for turning this around, but I have a question for you about something that just came out related to tariffs. I live in the socioeconomic world. You have a law degree, you're a lawyer. You see, I think the legal aspect of things very differently than I do, just because I'm not trained there, and it gets lost on me. So I don't know. It seems to me that he's made a lot of advances that were not just considered unusual or out of the norms, but he has actually broken a lot of legal precedents to pave the way to do some things that we thought were impossible. So I just don't want to discount the fact. And I think if we take the lazy Carville attitude, because I've been a critic of the establishment Democrats and people that are there to just win elections like a Carville to say, if we just hang tight, this guy's going to implode. Don't worry about it. I think we should always be acting like this guy is fucking us every single day and be aggressive in response.
- [26:52]
B
Well, look, I'm fine. I'm fine with whatever mindset helps keep you on the edge that you want to be on. But two quick answers and one, these are conversations. You can ask me whatever you want, whenever you want, and I'll give you my number when we're done. And you can text me and call me whenever you want. Because that's why I have people on, unless I say, like a Jackson Hinkle or something like that, where I'm having this guy on because I can't believe how popular he is and that he's a major voice for his generation when he's saying such crazy shit, you know, unless I preface it that way, it's because I want to have a relationship. One, a president can't tax. A tariff is a tax, period. I don't care who pays it, I don't care where, I don't care if it's good or it's bad. They can't tax. So what is he doing then? So he's just breaking the law? No. Congress has given presidents tariff powers through various pieces of legislation that are almost always described as emergencies. Now, I think that the President's biggest conceptual leap is that he believes. And I don't think that this is unfair and I know it's not inaccurate. How do I know? None of your business, audience, but I know it's not inaccurate. He believes an emergency is anything he says an emergency is. He believes that. And by the way, there are a lot of scholars who agree with him that the President is a funky branch compared to the other two branches. And it is invested with things that the other two are not. And yes, they're checks and balances, of course, of course. But he is not completely wrong that presidents do get to make determinations on things that the other two bodies don't get to do unilaterally in the same way. That said, taxing is not one of them. Has he overextended the anticipated reach of the legislation on emergency taxation powers or tariff powers given to a president? Yes. Oh, that's Cuomo's opinion. He hates Trump. One, I don't hate anybody. I don't like a lot of the things he says he does and does. And two, I'm not saying it. A federal judge just said it. Oh, yeah, but they're all anti Trump. That's bullshit. Let's let it play out. The only reason it's subtle is because Congress would be going batshit crazy if a Democrat were doing what he did because it's Republican controlled.
- [29:28]
C
And that's why this now goes to. So the Appellate Division just said what you said, which is, this is in the Constitution. This is kind of irrefutable. You don't have taxation power. This is what that is. I'm sorry, but they're eventually going to have to get repealed. It looks like they might get emergency standing at the Supreme Court to be able to do it. And I know it's very difficult to judge how justices think about these things, but is there a way, and let me preface the question by saying if the Supreme Court takes this up as an emergency measure and then they decide to uphold what the Appellate Division said, the tariff regime has to end. I think it's within 45 days. And by the time they made the decision, the tariff regime would have to just end. And the maximum he could then wind up putting on is, I think, 15%. He could also go back to Congress and just say, do what I did the first time. Just do it.
- [30:20]
B
And that might just do it.
- [30:21]
C
Right.
- [30:22]
B
That's not bad. That's not bad. So that's not bad. That wasn't bad, what you just did.
- [30:26]
C
Possible, but I. When you. What could the justices possibly see? What do you think the administration's argument is going to be that this is indeed emergency power? Because if those tariffs come off, everything, everything that they've told us about how they intend to monetize the government and make money and reduce the deficit. Because Bessant just went on another talk shows free saying we're going to, we're going to have a trillion dollars a year in tariff revenue, that we're going to be paying down the deficit with tariff. This is incredible. Well, if that all goes away, then what happens? Are they creating their own emergency?
- [31:04]
B
Chris Besson's problem? Yes, one, yes. Because he believes the emergency is what I say it is. And again, you can take that and process it as fucking Trump. But other presidents have done very similar things. I mean, you know, Biden's move with US Title 42 and the move that he the southern border, which was politically a good move, right? Showing that you don't want open borders, although it was too late and it killed him anyway. That was his reckoning under a piece of legislation about what triggers that thing. Presidents have even more powers within the executive branch to make determinations, especially when it comes to foreign power. And that's what this is an extension of. We had this anticipation in the early days when my people were still stomping grapes and hunting pigs with sticks over in the hills of Naples, that the president would be the main diplomat for the United States of America. So when it comes to making deals and treaties, and it's all him, all the time, whatever the fuck he wants to do, he speaks for us. That's what the election was about. And then he goes back to Congress and they codify it and that was expected reach. So he is seeing this as an emergency of economic imbalance. Now, the best fact for him, which you will absolutely smack me around 10 times for saying it, and I get it, although I think you lose politically, is this. These countries do all have better trade deals with us than we do with them. If you look at the top line of the percentages, if you look at the percentages of how we punish them versus how they punish us, if you want to see tariffs that way, it looks like all the deals are upside down and better for them than they are for us.
- [32:51]
C
The only counter I have to that is A, we negotiated all of them. B, they're designed. That's by design. For better, for worse. It was by design because we need to supply the world with dollars and it comes back to the currency equation. And then they also break their own rule. Part three by, you know, these exorbitant tariffs that they put on a place like Brazil that we actually have a trade surplus with. So it's all completely incoherent. Like there's no thought or policy behind it other than they wanted to weaponize this in order to bring in revenue because they refuse to to increase taxes on the wealthy. They need to put it the revenue.
- [33:31]
B
Is an extra because they know at some point someone like you is going to get traction saying you paid this fucking revenue. This is not coming from China.
- [33:42]
C
It's going to show up in the inflation.
- [33:43]
B
It's already showing up in the inflation from China. It's these small businesses that are importing things and they will show you what they've been to pay to the different ports of entry and where their stuff comes from that is driving these price implications that you're talking about. So that's not the value. The value is a political optic, just like the crime. Everybody else has fucked this up, Max, until me. You're right, they did negotiate all these deals. The deals sucked, just like nafta. And that's why I fixed it it. And now I'm fixing all the trade imbalances in one fell swoop. Can you criticize me for doing too much to too many all at once? Yes, you can. But at least I did something. Just like with crime. I'm sending military all over the place, as many places as I can. Why? Because it works, that's why. If there were Humvees on my block, much better chance I pick up my dog poop than if there no Humvees on my block. And if I'm looking to go outside and smack somebody around, much less chance that I do it with a guy with an automatic weapon sitting out there. So it's not how we police it is not a good long term strategy. Just like the tariffs, just like the trade deals. Just like what's happening with stablecoin. Just like what's happening with the use of militia around the country. But politically I think he wins every fight. If it's me versus you on Jubilee with. So you want military in cities? No, I do not want military in cities. But you just said he wins. I think if you talk to the people in the city about their crime situation and if they are worried and affected by it, they're okay with crime coming down by any means necessary in the short term, right?
- [35:50]
C
Why talk about root causes? Why talk about societal health and all those other things? I can't fix those things by sending the military and boom, right can't fix those things. I get it from a political message. You know the difference with the stablecoin thing and why I also agree with you that we would lose a jubilee battle in that is that people have great antipathy toward the Federal Reserve. Most people don't know why.
- [36:12]
B
They have no idea. But he knows, he knows. And I'm telling you, people say, you know, I was just. My apartment here, which is where I shoot the podcast. So I've got my two producers and I've got one of my great friends who is here and they were all teasing me about going MAGA right before I started talking to you, which you have to understand how physically how violating that is to me. And not because I hate Trump. I hate the cheapness of that as a counter you hate. I do not hate Trump. He's the President of the United States. I didn't vote for him. He's my President now and that's how it is. I don't hate him. I criticize things that he does. And I say being busy works in politics. The crime thing is a home fucking run for him. And if the Democrats don't figure it out fast, it's gonna be the social issue that motivates the midterms. And they're getting very close to screwing it up with the voters that matter most to Democrats in these midterms, which are because of the gerrymandering and how all the districts are locked in. So you have 90 plus percent retention of incumbents, so you have very small margins. 45 to 55 year old black women. And they care about crime. They care about crime. So that's what I'm recognizing. I'm recognizing his effectiveness and being busy in politics works. And people hate systems. To your point, I am regular person. I am not Max with no last name. I am just a regular guy, fairly sophisticated in my own space. But I don't follow all this shit like you do because I can't understand how you keep hair on your head listening to crazy all day. I got enough real problems. So to me, what's the Fed do? Fucks with monetary policy to help big corporations and doesn't care about guys paying a mortgage like me. And when it works for them, when it works for Wall street, they dump money in it and all the rates come down. If I got lucky enough to lock in a rate, great. And if I don't, I get screwed and they don't give a shit. That's what the Fed does. So the President is beating up on the Fed and Saying lower the rates for everybody else, even though you say the rich guys don't need it right now. That's the sell. Does it win in our Econ201 class? No, you get a C minus. But. But it wins in politics.
- [38:38]
C
Yeah. And I think one of my great frustrations, slash my admiration for this administration is that they do so many crazy things that it actually obscures the conversations we should be having. So it's like I used to. People would ask me about the Obama administration and I had a whole host of issues. I could, I, I would always say, if you want my opinion on the Obama administration, I would say that in the classical definition of Republicanism, he was the greatest Republican president of my lifetime because. And I said, now I can discuss that with you on policy measures. But the people that hated him were like, what are you talking about?
- [39:15]
B
He said, first of all, everybody was like, what are you talking about, Max? You're too fucking smart. I mean, I don't know who you're talking to on a regular basis, but.
- [39:23]
C
You say the Republican Party.
- [39:25]
B
If you're not talking about music, you lost 80% of the audience right there.
- [39:29]
C
Forget about, forget about this Republican Party party. It's the Republican Party that. You know what, it's the Republican Party that your dad knew and fought against. It was, it wasn't as much of a binary as it is today, but there were some rules of engagement and there were belief systems in those things. And this is really at the beginning of the Reagan Thatcher era. This is the beginning of sort of the transformation of what we would consider the neoliberal era. And forget about all the terminology to it.
- [39:58]
B
It.
- [39:59]
C
President Obama used incredible authorizations to invade countries that we weren't at war with. And he. And he self granted that authorization. There was a lot of us that were very frustrated with how the NDAA continued to play out year, year over year. He was very friendly to business, but the narrative was he was not friendly to business. He was very good to Wall Street. The narrative was not good to Wall Street. So the narrative, I always separate the narrative from the policy. And I looked at the fundamentals of it and I said, this guy is running a classical Republican blueprint where if you, if you put him side by side with, let's say, a Richard Nixon, they would probably be pretty indistinguishable from one another on policy. So that's how I used to say, like, I would make that argument to say we hate the same thing, but for very different reasons. And one of the things that I dislike so much about this administration is that they obscure the conversations we should be having about the Fed. I can dislike the Fed just as much of as, as an end the Fed type of libertarian, but we're going to hate the Fed for very different reasons because I know that when they reduce the rates, it doesn't matter for my mortgage. My mortgage is tied to the long term treasury rates. That's a function of how the government is just being run and operated and what the country, what the world's belief is and our ability to service our debt. And right now it's out of control. They could cut rates to zero and it would have two impacts, zero impact on our mortgage rates and it would. And inflation would skyrocket. So it's like people just don't understand how the mechanisms of it work. Because I think the Fed, the Treasury, the government in people's minds are all the same thing, but they're constantly dancing right and working with one another.
- [41:38]
B
Support comes from Shopify so when I started this podcast I had to like figure out everything on my own. How the business goes, how to set up the business, how to deal with the scripts, how to to set up the filming schedule, everything, the logo, the branding. Forget about the commercial side. Especially with free agent. There are all these decisions to make and you can feel really small and really incompetent and really alone really fast. That's because when you're starting off with something new, it seems like your to do list just gets longer and longer and your answers are in short supply. However, if you can find the right tool that helps you simplifies things for you. Game changer. That's why for millions of businesses the tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. 10% of all E commerce in the US Mattel Gymshark to brands just getting going. Shopify. So get started with your own design studio. You'll get hundreds of ready to use templates. Shopify can help you build a beautiful online store that will match your brand's style. You get to accelerate your content. Shopify helps you with all these AI tools that will write product descriptions and page headlines. Even enhance your product photography. So turn your big business idea into money. Shopify. Shopify on your side and anything is possible. Possible. Sign up for your $1 a month trial and you'll start selling today at shopify.com Chris C Go to shopify.com Chris.
- [43:17]
D
C. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner Like Shopify, they have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond. Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer.
- [43:50]
B
You ever hear the expression in politics if you're explaining you're losing and.
- [43:54]
C
Absolutely.
- [43:55]
B
And that's the key is as soon as it gets complicated, it's over. And I'm not saying that we're too simplistic, it's just the nature. I remember my father saying to me once and the fundamental difference then versus now was my father didn't have personal animus towards anyone, even Alphonse d'. Amato. Now my father was also very jaded by ethnicity. And so if you were Italian, he was going to have a different set of problems with you based on your politics. Cuz he wouldn't ascribe animus the same way he knew Republicans could be bad. He hated the mob, he hated the mafia as a scourge on our ethnicity. But so when he was going head to head with Ralph Marino, it was Anderson, before Harding, whoever was the head of the Senate. But most of the years that my father was there, it was a guy named Ralph Marino was the head of the Republican Senate. Senate in New York State where my father was governor for three terms. And they had to make deals the idea of not getting the budget done. That's why putatively my father didn't run for president. He couldn't, they wouldn't let him pass his budget. In my father's mind that was a death sentence because the people would say well you didn't even do the job here. What the fuck you want another job? You can't even do this job now. That would be absurd in today's politics because you also.
- [45:15]
C
A death sentence for a president up until the Reagan years.
- [45:17]
B
That's right.
- [45:18]
C
Money deficits in this country.
- [45:19]
B
That's right. Them into how we operate now you can just. The most legitimate position in binary partisan politics is opposition. It's their fault. They're worse. They're stopping it. They're terrible. Put me in there so I can stop them from what they want to do. That's enough. That'll get you elected. To oppose is enough. It didn't used to be that way. So he would sit with this Ralph Marino and I watched it I didn't hear it. I didn't read about it. I watched it where they would open a bottle of wine and Ralph would drink it. Because my father was a cagey bastard himself. And he didn't. He. He would sip wine, but he wasn't a big drinker. But, you know, he would let other people drink around him, especially if he needed to get something. And they would then make deals, and the deals would fall away, but they knew they had to make one. That has disappeared. So to the central premise, you are for or against, that's all there is. There is no the dance of the Fed and the this and the that. Is the Fed good or bad? Fed's bad. Oh, okay. Trump says, fed's bad. What do you say? Well, I say it depends. Okay. I don't trust you. You're part of the system. You must be doing well. He's right. The Fed's bad. And now you can say, yeah, then people are stupid. Well, hold on. The last.
- [46:32]
C
I would say people are busy.
- [46:33]
B
They're busy. But also they know that systems tend to be things not to trust, and they tend to skew outcomes and they tend to make things harder versus EAS from your own perspective. So Trump owns all that. And that's why the thing that scares him most in the midterms, in my opinion. Okay. Is the reaction formation to MAGA of the populist movement on the left. And it's not even primarily he's keyed to New York City's mayor contest because he is from here and he has property here. But what he really is afraid of is what happened in Minnesota. You have a sitting Democratic mayor in Minneapolis who's doing just fine, who lost in a primary to a guy who looks like he's out of Tom Hanks pirate movie. And I know that that is a really prejudicial thing to say about North Africans. And I get it. I don't feel that way. That's the way this guy's being sold. That holy. Do you see this guy who just won out there? This is what the Democrats want.
- [47:39]
C
And on the other spectrum, you got what's happening in Maine right now.
- [47:43]
B
That is what he is afraid of. He is afraid that the animus of the left is now meeting and exceeding the animus on the right because they kind of are satisfied because they got their guy in there, and that's what. And you mix in the Muslim thing. And Trump is of a generation where he'll, you know, as soon as he says, look, I love Muslim. If he loves Anybody he's about to tell you, you gotta fear and hate them. Okay? As soon as he says, I love whatever he says, cuz he's about to flip it on you, you know what I mean? So he wants to up, I'm not a bigot except when I am, you know, and that's what he's afraid of because that's what works in politics. So the Democrats now are. And this is why I. First of all, I don't think it's fair. You may say it is fair and you like being described as progressive left or whatever it is. I feel that it's just critical thinking. What I like about UN fuck the Republic is I could argue it's not fucked. It's how it's always been and it's where you want to be in the cycle of machinations of change. But. But that's not the point. It's critical thinking and we have to get back to critical thinking. If I could wave a wand, everybody would say, you want to wave a wand? If I could wave a wand, I would destroy the culture of party supremacy over our process. Because I can't have a primary where anything happens other than a more extreme version of those two choices winning. Right? I mean, that's what, you know, that's what my brother didn't see coming soon enough in the Democratic primary in New York City. Not that I did. Although I do win because I didn't want him to run and I didn't want him to run as a Democrat. And why? Because I didn't trust what that party was about. It seems very, very radical, which would make sense from a reaction formation perspective and on the national level. I think Newsom is making a good bet. I don't like it. I don't like you trying to match what beat you. I don't like you trying to be a better, not a better, a more effective version of what is shit and what you should reject. But Democrats are right there, right now of. So I'm listening to Max about this whole stablecoin. That's pretty fucking smart and it's true, but man, it's sophisticated. Trump sucks. Trump's a thief. His people are weak and they're screwing the system and they're stealing from you and we have to organize and come at them because he's a desperate respite and all the people around him are weak and they're all enablers. And that Stephen Miller is a poster boy for any kind of right wing fanaticism you're worried about. And that's who's really pulling the strings and let's get after it and take him down. I think that's what they're going to choose. I don't like it. I don't think it's the best course for Democrats. I think they can get to the right same place in a better, better way. And the key word is better, better ideas. Because as you've just outlined very well on several different topics, he's right about the rejection of what is. He is not right about what should be. And there's space and opportunity in that. But it's hard. It's hard.
- [50:51]
C
You know, I, I think what, what Zoron did against your brother in, in the primaries and we'll see how it all plays out. What's happening in Maine, what happened in Minnesota, what's happening in these little pockets is sort of like, like lighting off these little aha moments in the establishment. My fear is that when, when, when the candle, you know, gets lit, they just snuff it out because that's what they do because they're just. And, and I've made the argument the DNC is there to take power, not to govern, and they see, okay, we're going to pull this, we're going to pull that. They think that Americans don't want a despot. What? What? I think that economic populist message taps into better. And I'm very wary of economic populism, by the way, but what I think it taps into at a. Exactly what has worked in the past. It's why Bernie was, you know, so ascendant in a couple of campaigns until the DNC had to do everything, I mean, everything in its power to stop that train and halt it in its tracks. And if not for Clyburn, all of them coming out and Covid Bernie, Mike, he could be the President of the United States. I mean, that, that's just like where we were at the time, which is amazing to think about. But the Democrats will always go with, hang on, let's go down the middle. Middle. Let's just say that this guy's terrible. He's awful. The Trump supporters don't want to hear that. They don't want to hear that the guy that they vote for is voted for is a dick or a despot. And the Democratic voters that aren't tuning into your show, my show, any show, any show except two weeks before the election to see who the fuck is running are listening. For one thing. I can't pay my bills. I'm underwater in my mortgage I need some fucking help here. Who's here to help me? And if one side is saying I'm going to help you out and the other in the other side, which is what they did during the Harris campaign, is saying things are good and getting better, it's like, go fuck yourself. I'm dying here. What's interesting, actually, you said it before with the stock market. Almost every economic rant that I go on, I start with the same mantra. The market is not the economy. And one of the reasons that the, that the market is ripping right now, now is the same reason it's ripping in China. There's nowhere for the money to go. People with money chase yield. That is, that's the, that is what they do. If you have money, you want a lot more of it, so you chase the yield. Where's the yield? Right now it's in the Treasuries. It's high. Right. So fixed assets are having a moment because the Treasuries are all paying high and it's in the stock market. The, the Magnificent Seven. Seven is 33% of the value of the S&P 500 Shiller PE ratios are the highest they've ever been. And everybody's looking at this and saying what the fuck is going on now?
- [53:35]
B
You know, Magnificent Seven, by the way, because my audience is more politically savvy than finance savvy. The magnificence. Magnificent Seven is not a movie yet. Anyway, Max is referring to the bellwether. Biggest companies that work within the stock market, tech stocks that work within the market. And he is expressing what is true everywhere in our economy, which is that it is very top heavy. And that's true about the market also that it is where it is. The number is the number. But the reason that that number is on the ascendant is because of a very, very, very small pool of corporations.
- [54:20]
C
Yeah. And they have all the, they're sitting on anywhere between 3 and $5 trillion in cash and marketable securities right now. So where are they going to put that money? They're going to be putting it in for as long as they can get a return. That's where it's going to be. The up thing about the marketplace is that they're also smart, cagey and aggressive enough to make money on the downside too. So I mean, I mean, I'm sure you know that, you know, most of the well heeled guys that we know know they've got their positions and they've got shorts on those positions too. And they're optioning the, out of this market because they know, well, at some point this ride ends, but I'll make money on the way down too. Compounding gains has been the story of our economy for so long, but it's only been compounding at the very top. And that's how the market is just not a reflection of it. What's interesting is that China is experiencing China's in that moment right now. And the American news outlets are just beginning to talk about this, but their surge in Shanghai index is, is based on nothing because they know that there's weakness in that economy because Trump is killing the global economy. Anyway, I get far afield and passionate about this stuff. But coming back to exactly what you're saying is that my biggest issue as a, as a presenter is that I'm an essayist by trade. I came up, I have journalism training, but I'm an essayist. And I'm constantly burying the lead because I'm so fascinated by all the things that surround it. So I don't want to, I don't want this to get lost in the weeds, that when Trump leaves office, he would like to be in control in dictating how much money pours into the United States. And they're building an infrastructure with very dark moneyed sources to be able to do that. And if Congress passes these next two bills, he will be able to exit Congress and the Trump family will be one of the most important players in private finance, acting as a shadow central bank. Not sexy, but really, really monumental because it would be the greatest heist in the history of modern finance.
- [56:24]
B
What are the bills and why is it a heist? If it's legal and it's an opportunity that anybody could take and they're just.
- [56:31]
C
Taking it, it's not legal yet. So what they're doing with the two bills. So the Genius act act, not a terrible act because what it did is it just sort of said, okay, if stablecoins are going to be buying us Treasuries, we should put some guardrails around this. Like, you know, you can't. Like if you and I, which we theoretically could just started our own stablecoin tomorrow, was like, woohoo, we're part of this thing and we're going to buy Treasuries. Like that might not be what everybody needs, right? But these companies have proven that the blockchain is stable. They haven't had too many cases of embezzlement and fraud. So what the government said with the Genius act is it seems like this is underway. This is, this is a, this is an unstoppable train and it's also happening in other countries. The EU's looking at it, China's looking at it. So we should get ahead of this and put some guardrails around. Who exactly can purchase our Treasuries? Smart. The second acts and the reason that the second acts didn't pass the Senate along with the Genius act, because they were passed as a, in the House as a trio of bills. One is called the Clarity act and the other is called the Anti CBDC Surveillance State act act. Says stupid names. It has nothing to do with it. The Clarity act takes regulatory authority and control and moves it from the SEC over to the cftc. The CFTC is a different governing body that rules over commodities in this country. And because of the lax restrictions in the CFTC, we got good stuff like Enron and the oil Spike crisis in 2009 and what was that other other the housing collapse. So the entire mortgage backed security fraud issue was because the CFTC didn't know what they were looking at and didn't know how to regulate it. That's where stablecoins are going. If the Clarity act passes, Ted Cruz is the one carrying the water for that right now and it's out of committee and they'll be voting on that soon. That's not great.
- [58:18]
B
No, but it sounds great because it's taking the. So the sell on it is we are going to take this away from the deep state. We're taking this away. It sounds like we're going to regulate it and we're going to, but we're actually not doing that. Ted Cruz's sell is government fucks everything up. Private sector does everything right because it all winds up washing out in the market. So the more that they do it and then. But here's the mistake with it, Max, and I want your take on this. This. So the mistake on this is what we do with what I hear Democrats do with Social Security. He wants to privatize Social Security. They want to privatize it. They want to privatize it. That's what they want. One, most people don't know why that's bad. Okay. And two, it's like everything goes from zero to 100 in our politics, period. But it seems to do that now to the Democrats disadvantage because it seems like they're against changing anything that the only thing they want to change is gun laws or in something in ways that like, you know, I don't want or a person doesn't want and that when Trump is like, okay, the Fed isn't doing it, I want to change it. No, don't change it. Fuck. These trade deals aren't good enough for us. I'm going to change them. No, you can't change it. Oh, God damn it. All right, well, immigration is a problem. You got all these people running around killing everybody.
- [59:47]
C
I'm going to stop.
- [59:47]
B
No, no, no. Leave him alone. You know, that's where the Democrats keep getting stuck on this. This is the next one. So you wait. They want to make it so that I can make some money in crypto like everybody else. These stablecoins could be my. My way of getting in there, the way the big dogs eat. I'm getting a little space at the bowl here. No, no, no, don't pass that. Don't let anybody get any space at the bowl. That's the way it plays.
- [60:11]
C
Oh, definitely, definitely. And. And that. And it's been very difficult to raise awareness around this issue. And there are people, People in. Again, in central banking that are just like, this is. This is catastrophic. And. And I don't think people understand. And they don't know how to explain it either, because they're a bunch of, you know, economic wonks that came out of, you know, the London School of Economics, and they're like, you know, I. I think this would be a terrible idea for the currency. And this is. And everybody's like, fuck are you even talking about? I just said none of this makes sense.
- [60:39]
B
And you're rich.
- [60:40]
C
Yeah.
- [60:40]
B
I don't want to hear some rich guy come. Because if the rich guy is complaining, why is the rich guy complaining? Because it's not good for him.
- [60:47]
C
Him.
- [60:48]
B
But I say him. And so if it's not good for him, it must be good for me.
- [60:52]
C
And the guy from Texas is carrying the water for it. I don't like him personally, but, you know, Texas, that's a free. Like, there's a whole. Yeah. There's a whole psychology behind how they're going to be able to promote this thing. But in essence, all it does is it makes. Defangs our regulatory ability to actually determine who's purchasing these coins, what type of reserves they have to hold, where they hold the reserves, how much liquidity they have to have. Have when they put the third act with it, which is it hasn't come out of committee. And this is why I. I have faith that there are now Republicans in the Senate that are like, you want to do what? Yeah, slow your roll on this one. This is. It's called the Anti CBDC Surveillance State act. Essentially saying everybody but the Fed can do this. Like everybody but the Fed can get into the stablecoin. But China's got a stablecoin. That's how they're running their currency now. Yep. Nope, Fed can't do it. Who's going to do it? Private companies. Like who? The Trump family. And I think even the senators are like, I'm sorry, say that last part again.
- [61:57]
B
Who?
- [61:58]
C
So they're going to be the deciders of who gets this fucking money. Because they could turn around and, and theoretically say we don't want as many Treasuries backing this coin. We're in charge of the cftc, we're going to change the regulatory requirements. So now we want want also other forms of crypto to backstop this stablecoin. It's stable enough. You have enough in reserves. What it does for the Trump family, which I don't think people have kind of like fully gone like brought this out in their minds yet is every coin that's made you make a little money. Every time that coin then further circulates, there's more money to be made. And when you purchase the treasury, the treasury has to pay that them interest on that treasury note. So if they're purchasing short term treasuries at 4% and they've got a billion dollars that they have to buy from the treasury, our government is now currently, as it stands, paying the Trump family interest on that money. That's already happening. But when they become the only ones that are allowed to purchase the currency, Houston, we have a problem here because that means that we're just exclusively going to be making money for a company that just relocated next to Bukele's headquarters, another company that is going to lose the battle if this thing goes, oh, you know, gets thrown out into the marketplace which is our company circle in the United States. And then you've got the Trump family that has only dark money. The nation did a great piece on this, that one of their key investors that, that put in $100 million, nobody knows who it is. They literally don't like, they literally don't know where the money came from. But that was enough for them to go buy all these coins and put more in circulation. And the treasury is paying the Trump family interest the whole fucking time. This is the greatest gambit. I mean, but it's legal.
- [63:51]
B
But it's legal.
- [63:53]
C
Yeah, because we're making it legal. That's the install part. Because they could also turn that regulation around and be like, let's not. Private staple coin.
- [64:01]
B
Right? You can't, you can't. That the buying of the Treasuries, you know, you could define who could do it and who can't do it. That's going to.
- [64:09]
C
This is what the EU is looking at, right? The EU's looking at us and they're like, are you fucking nuts?
- [64:13]
B
But anybody who buys Treasuries technically gets paid by the government because you're getting the interest rate on the investment of the underlying value of the security. That's right. So that's how you deal with that criticism of, well, hold on a second. It's not that the government's paying us to screw you, it's I'm an investor and we're investing in Treasuries just like most pension funds and you get paid the interest rate, and that's, that's how it works. So we're not doing anything wrong, except.
- [64:45]
C
That you're prohibiting our government from actually doing it and mandating that it's private sources so that they'll be the only ones that are getting paid that interest on it, instead of our own government, which depletes the Federal Reserve's assets and their seniorage. And every time they just make more and more money on it, that begins to compound. Now they become the source of liquidity. Here's where the rubber meets the road. That Fed put that you and I were talking about before, when every, when the shit hits the fan, as it does in a capitalist system by design, that's not a critique of capitalism. That is a, that is an feature, not a bug. Right? When it, when it hits that wall and our debt is so high right now that we don't have the ability to dip into reserves, we print more money, we print more money and we buy it through the Treasuries. And that's how it goes. What they're saying is the money that the Fed would normally be operating with is going to be in the hands of the Trump family, based in Luxembourg or wherever the fuck they decide to hang their hat, maybe, you know, next to Bukele's dressing room, I don't know. So we're going to just cede all of that central banking authority to private interests at the moment that we need it after he tanks the economy. And that's the other part of this thing. The worse the economy gets, the higher the yield on the treasury, the more expensive our debt gets because people lose faith. Faith, which means those people that are purchasing the Treasuries, they make more money. So it's like this guy wins everywhere across the board. I'm the only one that can buy them, and when I take the economy, they have to pay me more money. Brilliant. I mean, it's, it's fucking. If you're. This is gangsterism on the highest level. And, and you know what people say to me once the aha moments come? They're like, yeah, I don't believe you. He's too stupid. I'm like, he's not. He's not.
- [66:28]
B
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- [68:14]
D
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- [68:44]
B
It's not that he is stupid. It's not that he's not stupid, but he doesn't have the polish that people are used to with politicians. But that is a plus because people have come to see sophistication as some form of sabotage or as a suggestion of perf, you know, or that you're not to be trusted. And you're too slick. And the, you know, the more basic you are, the more raw you are, the more vulgar you are, the more relatable you are. And they don't apply the analogy that many in the cognoscenti in, you know, the thinking class, let's call it want you to, which is. Is if you were going to get a surgeon, would you want a guy who's like, fuck it, let's cut it out? No, you would want People don't make that connection. Yeah, but I'm not looking for a surgeon. I'm not looking for somebody who actually has to know how to do what they say. This isn't a hole in my roof. When you're coming and saying, hey, choose. Choose us the unfucked guys. Because, you know, Cuomo, the other roofer, he's even worse. Oh, okay, then I'll go with you if the other guy's even worse. It's not like anything about politics.
- [70:08]
C
You interviewed Chomsky, right?
- [70:09]
B
Oh, sure.
- [70:10]
C
I mean, what a. First of all, wow, very cool.
- [70:14]
B
I did it early on, and then thank goodness I got it done early on, because then he went bad on me. And, you know, he is, you know, my problem with ever interviewing guys at the end, like, I was. I was just with a very, very, very famous journalist who will remain nameless, and he ain't who he was anymore. And, you know, this is something that young people don't understand. So you get Noam Chomsky. And I'm not saying this because he comes at me about what I argue or don't argue. That's not the point. He's free to criticize me. I think he's great. I think he's a genius, and I'm a big admirer, even if I don't agree with his political philosophy. But he ain't the guy of 1980 anymore. There is. There's a sell by date.
- [71:00]
C
My point with him is he. I think what he. He almost let a lot of people off the hook. But what he. What he revealed was Politics is. This is not cryptic, right? You know, you don't need a doctorate to be in this game because it affects each and every one of us. Politics is you and me. Politics is the guy on the street. Doesn't make a difference. If you want to learn about this thing, it is a completely open and accessible field and space for you to Dr. Your own conclusions. Just do the work. And I think that that's sort of, kind of what you're saying, is it like everybody gets to weigh in on this thing, but we're all humans. We're all creatures of our own habits, our own upbringings, our own environments, and our own instincts when our backs are against the wall. Like, I feel like the vast majority of Americans backs are against the wall. The messaging, as you suggest that will resonate with them is, I don't know, put the criminals behind bar. I don't know. I just need a fucking job. So if an immigrant say, you tell me immigrants take my job. Get the immigrants. Like that really resonates with people in that moment of fear and precarity. And so if the Democrats are going to mount an opposition of any kind, it has to be, I think twofold. One is tap into that precarity, tap into that fear. Just see people, just be like, I see you, I feel you. And don't feel their pain on that type of Clinton level. Like, really get in there and be like, this is fucked up. This is fucked up. And we were part of, part of it. So take some of the blame. Have that be, you know, that's fine. But the other piece of it is have an idea. Have an original idea. Have a thought about how we're also going to get out of this mess.
- [72:35]
B
Because they don't want. They don't. They're not playing with that piece. One, that's the hard piece. That's the hard piece because that's where charisma is not enough. Okay. I was just talking with my team about how my audience hates when I criticize aoc. Why do they hate when I criticize aoc? Because she's an aspirational figure on the left. I get why she pops in polls. I think she is tremendously politically talented. I do not find her sophisticated. I do not find her arguments sophisticated. That is important to me. But I do believe she embodies a precarity that you are outlining right now. This is someone who just put out on her asset show despite being in Congress. So, you know, being a six figure earner for six, seven years, she's got 150 grand in debt and she's got maybe 60 grand in assets. So she's a real one. Okay. She's like, I'm upside down, man. This system is killing me. I hate these guys. I'm not letting some guy tell me how I am anymore. And to shut up and listen. She's very effective. And I get why they don't like me messing with their warrior. I totally get it. I'm just obsessed with the second piece. I grew up with a guy who was pretty charming. Was raised by a couple of guys in my family who were pretty charming and pretty good on the cell. It's what they were selling that matters to me. I am obsessed. I remember winning my first political bet with my father during the bush election in 1988. The first election I was ever able to vote in against Dukakis. Bush, Dukakis. And my father says Dukakis wins. Why does Dukakis win? Because Bush has no theory of the case. He doesn't offer anything. Read my lips. No new taxes. What does that even mean? Nobody's gonna understand that. Dukakis has a plan. Gotta have a plan.
- [74:29]
C
Is this before or after he put the helmet on?
- [74:31]
B
This was before, but that helmet didn't help him. And because you know why? Because the image sold what we now call a narrative, which is this is a little man. This is a little weak man. And that's not who we want as president. Even though Dukakis was a pretty tough guy. But it doesn't matter. Matter. I won.
- [74:51]
C
The great, great retail politician.
- [74:53]
B
Yeah, he was back old school.
- [74:54]
C
Great retail.
- [74:55]
B
But it was at a time when what wins the cell wins. Why? Because people's expectations are different in politics than anywhere else. Even if they are more emotionally inclined in this choice structure than they are, they tend to be in other ones. And maybe that's why it gets to be more exaggerated effect because they're more emotionally invested. But. But to me, the part that matters is the second component that you outline. Which is what's the better idea? I believe the space in the midterms. I think that the B word is what the midterms are about. Unless crime and something with crime would be tough because he started this early and the midterms aren't for a couple of November. But if he gets crime, then my analysis is going to have to change. But better is what the midterms are going to be about. Reagan, are you better off than you were? I had the guy who wrote that line for him, who never intended it. Really? Yeah. Never intended it the way that it was used. It wasn't. Are you better off than you were four years ago? It's not what was written. It's not where the guy was coming from. He was coming that our administration's doing things that, that we said we were going to do. It was just a. Promises kept, but it wound up taking on a resonance that the guy never imagined. And he's still out. He's still out there online. You can look him up.
- [76:15]
C
But.
- [76:17]
B
They don't have better ideas. AOC does not have better ideas. These people on the far left aren't even selling you better ideas. They are selling you. Trump is personally a dirtbag and he is, as a leader, an authoritarian.
- [76:34]
C
See, I think this, I think it's the, the opposite of that. I think that the, the middle is still going with that line of thinking and with that thread and the, it depends on how you characterize the, the far left. The left is such a, it's such a spectrum. I consider myself on the far left because I, I would align more in terms of systems with, with where Chomsky sees foreign policy or Giannis Varoufakis sees the evolution of the economy or things like that. So I see myself as on the socioeconomic end of the spectrum, is very much aligned with democratic socialism, but very hopeful for social democracy in this country, which to me is the reset. Social democracy is the reset. But we don't understand definitions, we don't talk about definitions in this country. So we just go with the binary. It's the right, the left, and then it's the far.
- [77:24]
B
But as soon as you say the word social media, that's a bad word, right?
- [77:29]
C
Exactly. So we get. So we get. And I think that on the left, there's a problem definitionally of these type of things where we don't talk about the policies that recommend it. And one of the things that. And this would be a great follow up, I think, as we move forward and we're trying to think about, you know, you and I, unpacking what happens next in this country. I don't know if you heard the President's dying, so what happens next in this country? Policy prescriptions are very important to me. So we spend a lot of time talking about policy prescriptions. And I've really started to back off talking about systems because that's really where my head goes, is, all right, what systems are we in? Where are we at in the stage of capitalism? Where are we at as a partner in the global capitalist environment? Rather than saying what would actually work for people on the ground. So surfacing ideas that I hear on the left that I think are wonderful. The central theme, the central one of it is Medicare for All. Like, that to me, is like, if we can actually have an authentic debate in this country about Medicare for all, because it touches on so many different aspects of social, political, and economic economy in this country, that to me, if we can get people to understand what's at stake in that type of conversation, then the other conversations actually happen pretty naturally from there. So there's fascinating stuff for us to be talking about, but I think that the left has lost the messaging battle in addition to the liberals, but the liberals are in control and they're saying we're going to drive the lane with Trump's scumbag. I don't hear that as much from the left because the same reason that I, you know what I said before about criticizing Obama, we're so mad at everybody that we lose the plot constantly. But the left, I think, gets. Gets wrongfully tagged by moderates, liberals, conservatives, all the way to the far right as being cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs when we're just trying to surface policy initiatives, initiatives that would work for the most amount of people.
- [79:21]
B
But when I look at the guys and we'll leave it on this for the first edition, and I tell you guys, check out Max. I'll set it up for you guys, and you'll see where you can find his podcast and his offerings. And it's polished and it's smart and it'll make you think if you take the time, which is, you know, if you're not a critical thinker, really, you shouldn't, you should have never clicked on, you know, my vanilla gorilla ass on the first place. But, you know, because if you don't want to think about it, then it just feel whatever you want to feel. But I, I think that if you look at the guys who are trying to counter the pod bros on the left, so you get your Brian Tyler Cohen, you get your Ezra Klein, right, propped up by the New York Times, but, you know, Ezra Klein and then these other guys in, you know, Pacman and these other guys who are trying to make a market in it, and there is a commercial reality here. I don't hear enough of what Ezra Klein was saying a year and a half ago about the systemic issues of a Republican democracy or a democratic republic and how that works and what we have to think about all that really brainy stuff that he was saying. Now he's pretty Much in the authoritarian mode all the time. And Brian, Tyler Cohen and these other guys. Why? Because they see the numbers of, on the links and they see what people click on. Because if you play to fear, you're going to find an audience.
- [80:56]
C
Listen, I'm part of the Midas Touch network. Those guys brought me on two and a half months ago. Good Long island boys, good New York kids. They, they left New York so I criticize them for that. But you know, good kids from Long island that wanted to start something and there they lead very much with the fear mongering of Trump administration. And I counter with, I've, they brought me on and I said, I, I'm never, I don't, I don't know what it is to be part of a network. I do my thing over here and they say, we like yours, we like your economics perspective. We don't have that on the channel. We would love to bring that forward. Forward. I said, I get pretty wonky. I get pretty deep in the weeds and I'm pretty far left, I think I'm pretty far left to you guys. And they're like, great, just be smart and be right. And they put no governors on what I could say, when I could say it, how often I could say it. And I really appreciated that as part of it. So they worry about getting all the clicks and now all of a sudden I'm having this conversation which has been, I got to tell you, Chris, it's the coolest part about that affiliation is that their audience, we don't pander to them. And they're like, yeah, cool.
- [82:02]
B
What's this about?
- [82:02]
C
Oh, we're talking about the BRICS alliance and, and, and why the tariff, why the tariff war is actually just a response to the BRICS alliance and what they might do with central banking. And they're all in and they respond and I'm like, there is an appetite if you can open the door, there's an appetite once the door is open that people do want to learn more. Not everybody body, but I think one of the things that you do here is you don't pander, right? You, you, you give people and you have an appetite for learning. You have a worldview, you have a position, you relate that position to the people that you have coming on, but you allow for this, you know, free form discussion. That's what they've, the opportunity they've afforded me and I see a tremendous appetite so long as you're tapping into people's fear. Fear and economic precarity first and foremost. They're willing to listen to be like, okay, you're telling me. I'm, thank you, thanks for that now. Why. And they will listen to the why. And that's been, that's been super encouraging. But that's, that's the platform that, that you've created here, which I think is good. You've interviewed some people that I, you know, I, I, I, I can't even imagine. I, I just throw open my mouth. But you do. And you're like, all right, this is your thing. I hate you. I disagree with that. I don't hate you. I hate the thing that you're saying. And then you have it out. That's, that's a skill set to itself.
- [83:26]
B
Yeah. I just think it's a very precious commodity right now. And hopefully it becomes, you know, more of a thing. But I get why it isn't, I get why Megyn Kelly does what she does. Would I have a different dynamic with her if she were a guy? Yeah, I think that if, if Megyn Kelly was Michael Mike Kelly, I would have found him at some point and said, this is an intellectual, it's personal. Say what you say about my brother to my face right now. Say it about me when I have two daughters. Say what you said about me again. And then it would end right there. Maybe in his favor, maybe in my favor. But I promise you it would not extend beyond that moment. I am not, not my brother. I am not my father. I am not in elected office for a reason. I am not a leader. Okay? I am a highly skilled self defense guy with a fucking bad attitude towards people who I believe fall beneath the line of honor.
- [84:30]
C
And as I tell people all the time, I personally, I myself very fragile. Very fragile. No, it sits, I've tried that thing. What do you do? The, oh, the working out stuff.
- [84:43]
B
You are strong and you are supple and you are, you are smart enough to not have to be petty to make your points. And I think that that is huge. My problem is not the disagreement, it is the nature of the disagreement. I go, I would go on with the, the Midas touch guys. I heard that they've been chewing on my ass a little bit. Hey, I don't have any problem with that. I applaud their success. I think they are a good product. And I would go in there, I would have no problem slapping around and all the brothers at once. I have no problem doing it. I don't have any problem with that. They want to invite me on, I'd be happy to be There, they want to come here, whatever. It's all the same. But my point is that the more you are tuned towards, well, that's just a smart, good idea idea, and it's not at anybody's personal expense, the better. And that's why I think what you're doing, you know, if people think you're too far left, that's fine. Then they don't have to hold the same opinion. But the rationale for it, I think is really good, and I'm here for it. Doesn't matter whether I agree with it. I think it's great food for thought. I think it's intelligent, and I think it's needed. So anytime I can be part of your world, Max, you let me know. And anytime you want into my, all you got to do is shoot me a text and say, hey, I saw this thing that was on your show. This doesn't make any sense. You left out the most important piece of this. Let me know, because I'll then call you and say, well, tell me what it is, and if you want to, come on, explain it. So thank you for doing this.
- [86:17]
C
Oh, God, thank you. I really appreciate it. And thank you for surfacing this particular issue, because we don't have a lot of time, and I think it's vital, and I think it's vital that people understand it. And so hopefully we. Hopefully we had it out in an. In enough of a spirited conversation that it makes people investigate it further. You know, we did start a petition to send it to senators to be like, hello, hi, we're seeing this. Like, please, please think very carefully before you make your next move. So I. I'm trusting in the process that we can wake up enough people to wake up enough people and get it done. So this is invaluable for this process. And I. And I'm very grateful for the opportunity. Thank you.
- [87:00]
B
Told you it was smart. Un ftr. Now, you may not feel that the R is F'd, and that's okay. You may feel that the R is F'd beyond repair, and it's all because of Trump. And if it weren't for him, we'd be in a utopia. Doesn't matter. It's knowing what's going on. It's understanding it for what it is and what it could be, and then you make whatever decision you want to make about. About it. For me, it is not about the disagreement. It's about how you disagree. And not because I'm all style and not substance, but because you never learn. If you're just in rejection mode. And that whoever you are rejecting is the problem. There can be no growth. And we are atrophying. If you stay with this metaphor, we are atrophying in our culture right now. We are not about growth and change and development. We are about destruction and division and blame. And those are weakening us. They are not making us stronger. Critical thinkers. Free agents who wear their independence and think for themselves and are open to what they don't agree with. That's why I like Max@UNFTR. I don't have to agree with his politics or all his policy ideas. That would be boring. Boring. But I respect his process. I respect his intelligence. And him teaming up with those Midas Touch guys, the brothers. That's impressive. Their reach, their resonance is relevant. And I know you guys come after me. Like what I was saying to Max, you want a piece of me? I'm easy to find. Easy to find. So thank you very much for finding me. For subscribing and following and listening and learning and thinking for yourself and doing a little research about what's happening with these businesses. Bills and what's going to happen to us. I'll see on News Nation, 8P and 11P Eastern every weekday night. You know why I'm wearing this? Because I am not owned by a party, nor will I ever be. I am an independent, critical thinker and I'm wearing my independence as a free agent. You want my vote? Earn it. I'm not going to give it to you out of some misplaced sense of fealty. My fealty is to my family. Okay? My loyalty to those who are loyal to me. My vote goes to who represents my best interests on mine concerns. If that is who you are, then you will get my vote. But it ain't gonna be because your party you'll be despite it. My friends, the challenges are real. Let's get after.