Chris Cuomo (3:38)

Some of it was the course correction that you provide to Christians. I think that was one of the things that made you appealing. Originally. The media was probably hoping that you were just a self hating Christian because very often we like to market people who bash their own faith, but that's not what it is. You have taken upon yourself as a divinity student. So obviously the theology is very important to you beyond the dogma to talk to Christians about the hypocrisy of saying you believe it but not living it. Where does that come from and how has it been received in and around Austin, Texas, where you serve?

James Talarico (4:23)

Yeah, it's been interesting because some folks have called me a progressive Christian and I understand what they mean because, you know, politically or when it comes to, to policy, I do have progressive views. But in some ways I consider myself a conservative Christian because, you know, I believe in the authority of scripture, I believe in, in Christian doctrines and, and so in a, from a theological perspective, I'm pretty conservative. You know, I, I take a lot of inspiration from, from the late Pope Francis, who was also, you know, in some ways politically progressive, but also theologically conservative. And so these terms kind of get thrown around and, and, and maybe have different meanings in different contexts. But I've gotten so many messages over the last week, in particular since that Rogan interview, from people all over the state, all over the country, and some people from, from different countries who, you know, have sent me really personal messages about their own faith journeys and their discomfort with how religion has been used in, in recent years, recent decades to hurt a lot of people. And they're thankful that someone is providing a different perspective. Even if they don't agree with me on every issue, I think they're, they're grateful someone is, is pushing back against some of the folks who are, who are twisting our religion and, and using it to protect their own power and their.

Chris Cuomo (5:51)

Well, usually Christians are A one trick pony, right? It's all about being anti choice or anti reproductive rights or pro life, whatever vernacular you want. And you did pull a Bergoglio, you flip it on them and say you make your faith about what you're against instead of what you're supposed to be for. And your demonstration of loving mercy, as Bergoglio loved to talk in Buenos Aires, but also certainly as Pope Francis. Why do you think that distinction is lost? And why is it so much easier for people to be against rather than living as Jesus actually instructed?

James Talarico (6:32)

Well, this is not unique to Christianity, right? The powerful people using religion to advance their own self interest. That, that's a tale as old as time. It's been happening in our religion, you know, since I think Emperor Constantine. That's, that's was only 300 years after Jesus was executed by the Roman Empire. So this is something we've struggled with throughout our history, right? Emperors, dictators, politicians, televangelists using our religion to push their own agenda. And you know, the, the idea that Christianity is synonymous with being anti gay and anti abortion, that's a pretty recent phenomenon. I don't think people realize that if this is. I pointed out on that, that podcast interview that the Southern Baptist Convention was pro choice until the late 70s. So this is really a phenomenon of the religious right, which is a movement that started in the late 70s, early 80s with, with Ronald Reagan, with Jerry Falwell, with some of those figures. And it has just gone unchallenged, I think, in this country. I mean, Jimmy Carter may have been one of the last Democratic elected officials who really spoke passionately about his, his evangelical faith. And we, we haven't really seen that. You've got Raphael Warnock, who, who I think the world of, but we need way more folks who are pushing back against that narrative and creating space for, for people to have different views on these topics. Now I want to clarify, you know, Christians who are, who are anti abortion, I think they're, I respect that position. I do. You know, I just talked about Pope Francis. He was anti abortion and at least he was consistent in that pro life view, right? He was anti abortion, but he was also anti poverty, he was anti climate change, he was anti war. So he was very consistent and I respect that. And I am always willing to sit down with a fellow believer who may come to a different opinion about the issue of abortion, as long as it feels like they are serious and consistent morally on that, on that issue issue and on other issues. And so all I'm trying to do is provide a little space for those who come to a different theological place on the issue of abortion to. To still, you know, be allowed in this community, this. This in. In the church. And it feels like, you know, for. For the last 40 years, if you're pro choice and you're Christian, you're kind of seen by. By many folks in the church as not a real Christian because it's become so synonymous. And. And so I'm trying to push back against that a little bit.

Chris Cuomo (9:17)

So why Rogan and how did you interpret his seeming to be completely overwhelmed by you on that podcast? I mean, he is generally an active listener, and he, you know, that podcast is often, you know, it's a platform for many things, but when it comes to political ideology, it tends to play to the fringe and conspiracies and all this other nonsense. And he has you on, and he seemed completely in awe of you and wanted you to be president as soon as you left the studio.

James Talarico (9:52)

Well, I don't know how serious he was about that, but I. But I do think it was a real connection that we. That. That we made on that show. I was struck by, you know, how open and curious he is and that in my experience as being a politician, those are the best interviewers. It actually reminds me a lot of you as someone who actually is in the conversation. Sometimes you have an interviewer who has a list of questions. They're just going through it, you know, maybe even sometimes they're trying to do gotchas, right? They're trying to pin you down and create a moment. But the best interviewers are people who are genuinely curious about who you are, where you come from, how you're thinking about these things. It feels like a real human conversation that you would have with a friend or a family member or at a bar. And. And when you can do that on a big platform like this or like the Rogan podcast, I think it's. It's really attractive to people, you know. Now, I agree sometimes that openness can get you in a little bit of trouble because you may have some people who have some questionable views on your show. But, you know, I would rather have someone who is. Who is much more open than. Rather than someone who's. Who's more closed. I think it just. It creates an opportunity to have real understanding between two people, and that's just so rare in our civic discourse these days.

Chris Cuomo (11:11)

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Chris Cuomo (13:56)

I believe what you're saying is missing in your party. And I care about your party for two reasons. One, I'm stuck in a binary system that I have complete contempt for. But I am stuck in it, too. So I would love to have more parties. I would love for the political parties to have less, much less control over our process and have it be less about outside money. But a lot of that is legal. A lot of that is tradition and I'm stuck in it because all the powerful prefer it. The second reason is I was raised by a real one, a real Christian philosopher politician who you remind me of in terms of how thoughtful you are about your positions. I mean, you and my father Mario have very different upbringings and ethnic backgrounds, but your doxology and your ideas, idea about your faith is very similar. And you both face the same problem in different eras. Your party is running in the opposite direction of where you are. They got beat by Maga and they believe that a populist movement that grabs real grievance, not fake. That was the mistake that the left made with Maga. You thought they were posers and fakers. The grievance is real. The disaffection is real. The affordability issues are real. The anger is real. And your party now leaning into it because it beat you. And they are not saying the kinds of things that you're saying. What do you think of that?

James Talarico (15:36)

I think if your viewers haven't listened to your, your father's 1984 convention speech, the Tale of Two Cities, I think it is the best encapsulation of what it means to be a Democrat. It's what the Democratic Party should be. A focus on people who are left out and left behind. And it feels like we've strayed from that over the last few years, maybe the last few decades. But I do think that there is a moment here for a Democratic Party that remembers its, its roots, remembers its, its heritage. FDR and, and LBJ from my state or Mario Cuomo from your state. You know that that legacy is so needed right now. When we have such a division, we have such concentrated wealth and power, we have such a corrupt political system. We've got the, the, the greatest chasm between the haves and the have nots that we've ever seen. We are desperate for a, an old school Democratic party. And so, you know, people are saying what I'm doing is new. I actually think it's very old. And it's something that we have to, to get back in touch with if we're going to not just win elections, because that's not really the point. The point is to get political power to make people's lives better. That's the ultimate goal. And, and if we can't change how we're connecting with people, then when we're not going to gain political power, we're not going to make a difference in this country. So that's what I'm, I'm trying to do is. Is help our party reconnect with its historical roots because I think it has so much to offer during this. This moment of crisis in our country.

Chris Cuomo (17:14)

So I was seeing something the other day that I wanted to get your comment on. So I was watching clips of you at some community meetings or they were legislative hearings or something like that. And I thought it was interesting because you were doing it in your own way and you were way on the right side of the line of fairness. But the clips were going kind of viral because you were playing a form of kind of gotcha with different people who were bringing up weird bills or whatever it was. There are a couple of different examples, and it didn't worry me, but I didn't know how to take it because, look, that is the currency right now. You have to be owning the other side. You have to show that they are worse, that they are stupid. They are to be feared and opposed. You're not using that kind of language. I wanna be very clear. But I did feel that you were. I worry about the same thing with Buttigieg. You're very bright, you're very articulate. You know what you're talking about better than most people you deal with because you take the time to think and prepare. But there is a risk that you use it as a sword in politics and it will be well received. And it is. The clips are doing very, very well. But is there something you have to be careful about in that?

James Talarico (18:39)

Yes. I'm so thankful you asked about this, because this is something I think about constantly. I think the difference that I try to focus on is the difference between owning an idea or a bad bill versus owning a person. The difference between saying that an idea is bad or an idea is harmful or an idea lacks kind of logical consistency. That I think is very important because in a. In a democracy, we have to have a rigorous debate about ideas. Right. That's how this is all supposed to work. And you have to be able to. This is, again, something I think my party struggles with. You have to make the argument right. Sometimes Democrats, especially in recent years, we just think, well, we're right and everyone who disagrees with us is clearly wrong, or they're bigoted or they're racist. Right. Misogynistic. And we don't want to engage with that. I think the opposite. In democracy, you win by persuading people. So you have to make that argument. You've got to win the debate. But there is a huge difference between beating an idea and beating a person. Meaning saying that an idea is bad versus a person is bad. And so the line I try to walk, and I think to your point, I fail all the time at this. It's a difficult line to walk. It's. How do you vigorously contest the idea or the bill or the legislation while still holding. Holding space for that person's humanity as a. As a bearer of the divine image, as we would describe it in our faith? That. That is a real tricky line to walk. I do think I've been able to do it successfully in some instances. And. And some of the best feedback I get is, you know, I really appreciate in this video how polite you were and respectful you were to your opponent. To me, that's the best feedback I can get, which is, I made a good argument. You know, I use logic and reason and passion and rhetoric. You know, rhetoric is, you know, was an art form a long time ago, before it became a pejorative, using all those things to win a debate, but still loving and respecting my opponent, loving and respecting my enemy, as. As Scripture calls us to do. That's the line. And it's always so tricky. And I agree, the media environment is. It's creates these temptations, right? Because if you own somebody, if you say someone is an evil person, man, you can get more clicks and more views and more followers than you can imagine, right? If you drop adopt those kind of Trumpian tactics of just degrading a person and kind of brutalizing a person, that. That is. That can be very successful. And for an elected official like me, that's a temptation, right? Because I want. I want my message to spread. I want to win the next election. And so it's resisting that temptation as much as I can and loving my enemies while I still fight for what I believe in. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the line that I see that's super important not to cross.

Chris Cuomo (21:40)

I think you have it exactly right. And by the way, I never said the word fail because you didn't fail, you succeeded.

James Talarico (21:48)

I do fail at it.

Chris Cuomo (21:49)

And in the game as it is played. And the problem you have is, and I don't know what the right advice is, I wish I did, is that the commodity, the currency, the coin of the realm, is not what you do. And my caution to people is it never works out for anybody but Trump anybody who goes down that road, whether it's Ted Cruz, you know, any righty you want to pick. And now you're seeing it on the left with Crockett and aoc and it never works out, because here's my fundamental axiom. It's not a theory, but America is about sweet strength, not harshness. We are not bullies. Now, people will shake their head at that and they will say, what are you talking about? You guys are so violent. That's different. There is an outrage. There is a violence to us as a people. There's no question about it. Maybe uniquely so, but America at her best is not a bully. We hate bullies here. And we have become a bullying political culture, especially in the digital space, especially on Rogan's podcast, you know, the Pod Brothers. It's a really tricky thing for me, James, because unlike you, you are very sophisticated emotionally and intellectually, especially for a young guy. And I don't mean to condescend. That's the problem in your party. But I'm an old guy, right? I'm 55, and I actually could never be in elected office because I actually am a fairly rough around the edges violent guy. Like, I could do something stupid pretty much at all times, which is why we can do better than me as an elected leader. But you are in a tough spot because what is rewarded is not what's right. And you know that. And it's almost like you have to have the patience. Thank God you are young. That it will come back around to reasonable, to not just left and right in this battle to the bottom, but, like, can this actually be fixed? You know, do we have to hate each other all the time? Unless there's a bigger boogeyman who scares all of us at once, that's where your sweet spot is gonna be. And I just hope the timing works out.

James Talarico (24:17)

Yeah, I, I, I definitely agree with that analysis, but the only thing I'd push back on is I, I do feel, and I think, you know, this, this reaction to that Rogan podcast proves that earnestness and sincerity and compassion, understanding are going to make a comeback. I don't know that for sure. You know, my cynical days, I, I think we may be in a descending spiral that we can't get out of. But on my hopeful days, I, I see how people respond to this. And the thing I most, the, the, the feedback I've gotten the most since that Rogan interview is the, the phrase breath of fresh air, right? Like a breeze kind of blowing through the, the political discourse, you know? You know this, Chris. There's a, One of my favorite verses in scripture is Matthew 5. 5, the meek shall inherit the earth. Again, that doesn't seem like it would be true. Right. I mean, you look throughout history and you're like, no, it's the powerful, you know, it's the, it's the bullies that inherit the earth. They're the ones who win. But the countercultural thing about Christianity is this belief that, yes, violent, may violence may win in the short run, right? Jesus was crucified on Good Friday, he lost on Good Friday. But on Easter Sunday, something else wins in the long run, right? Love ultimately prevails in the long run. And that's, that's, you know, you can see that in nature, right? The wind takes out the mountain in the long run, the, the water takes out the rock in the long run, even though it's softer, but over time it is more powerful. And so I guess that's the long term bet I'm making, is that love and compassion are going to win in the long run. It may not win you, you know, immediate views on social media. It may not win you the next election. But I do think that, that this is what people ultimately want. The other stuff is like, it's like empty calories, right? It feels like food, but it doesn't actually nourish you. In the, in the long run, we are, I do believe that we are made by love, for love, as, as, as children of God. And so I do think it's where our heart longs to be at the end of the day, even if we do, you know, trip on the way there. So that's just that again, that's faith. I have nothing to prove that it is a leap of faith, but I don't know. I do, I think it, people may be ready for it again. It may make a comeback.

Chris Cuomo (26:45)

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James Talarico (29:54)

I think it actually comes back to the way my, a lot of folks in my party have lost touch with religion and spirituality. I mean, you know, so many of the successful progressive social movements you mentioned, the labor movement, civil rights movement, farm workers movement, they were rooted in religion. I mean the, the American civil rights movement wasn't explicitly Christian movement. Now of course there were, you know, allies from other faiths, you know, Jewish rabbis were out there on the front lines marching with Dr. King. But the organizing was done in churches and Dr. King was a pastor first and foremost before he was anything else. And I think that's so important. Because they were rooted in something deeper than the kind of, you know, the ups and downs of a, of a, of a political fight. And I worry that, you know, socialism, communism, even capitalism, these things can become religions, right? They become dogmas. And when you don't have something else to root yourself in, so you start rooting yourself in political philosophies or economics, philosophy, theories. Right? When in reality, right. The United States is a mix of all these things, right. We have free market system, but we also have Social Security and Medicare, public education and public libraries. So the idea that you would somehow kind of lean into an ideology in such a pure way as if, you know, we want to be completely capitalistic or socialistic. Right. Just that one doesn't reflect the reality of what this country is and what's made it great. I oftentimes think in terms of economic policy. I do want to go back to the 1950s when we had shared prosperity and when we were growing together. That to me does sound like making America great again is getting back to that economic system we had in the middle of the 20th century. But so I do think there's a danger in when, when people in my party lose touch with faith or spirituality. You start to believe in some of these political philosophies or economic philosophies, and you act like those are your religion. And that can be incredibly dangerous. And it makes you myopic and, and, and unwilling to, to listen to other perspectives or test ideas. Right. Like let's, let's see if a policy works and be okay to admit when it doesn't work or if a program doesn't work. We should be okay of trying new things and seeing what's actually effective based on experience and data. And you can't do that when it becomes your religion.

Chris Cuomo (32:24)

Do you see an advance in extremism in our political culture, if not our culture overall? And how do you believe we combat it? Context. The shootings at the Israeli embassy, this healthcare CEO, Minnesota, the politicians, what we just saw in New York City. It seems to me that we used to. I'm old enough to remember when we were afraid of the extremists without. Now they are all homegrown and seem to be susceptible to social media extremism, that it's all okay. This guy who was clearly diseased of mind who just shot up the building in Manhattan, he is getting support online. He's dead, but he's getting support online. This is what the NFL gets. This is what the corporate elite get. This is what happens when you ignore People who are hurting. That is extremism. We've never in America condoned violence as a methodology for political change until now, I think. Am I right? Am I wrong? And how do you see it?

James Talarico (33:48)

No, I think you're completely right. All I would say is we should recognize how these systems encourage this. Right. Sometimes I. I worry that we make this so individualistic, so personal, where we have extreme people in our. In our politics, which is true. But I think we. We don't recognize how these systems promote more extreme rhetoric, more extreme policy making. You know, not just our media systems, which, you know, we've, We've already talked about, but like these social media algorithms, these platforms, they get more clicks and more profit. When there's more extreme, outlandish statements that are made or extreme and outlandish actions that are taken, they're profiting off the extremism. So it's. It's literally encouraging it. Right. I mean, all of us see this, right? If you post something reasonable or you post, you know, a conversation where you're actually breaking through and having a. Some kind of mutual understanding between two people that doesn't get a lot of clicks and views. But if you've got folks who are throwing expletives at each other, that's gonna. It's gonna grab attention, right? And attention is the, as you mentioned, the coin of the realm now. And so I just, I do want us to recognize that we are kind of being played. We are being pitted against each other by these giant platforms that are profiting off of our divisions. But there's also systems within our politics. So I think of gerrymandering and redistricting, which is obviously a fight that's happening now in Texas. But, you know, I. When I got elected, I represented a swing district. I won the district with 51% of the vote. Donald Trump had won the district by one point. The. The election before I won that seat. So it was a. A classic district where you had a mix of people, and it was. It was great to represent that district because it forced me as a politician to listen and appeal to everybody, right? Because I couldn't just win with Democrats. I couldn't just win with my people. I had to build a big tent, a big coalition. I was targeted in the 2020 redistricting by my Republican colleagues. They basically cracked my district in half and destroyed my seat. The only way I survived is because a seat next door, where I happen to grow up, opened up. The. The Democratic rep went on and ran for something else. So I moved about a mile down the road and ran in the seat where I grew up. That seat though, is a heavily Democratic district. The district I have now, I think Joe Biden won my district with 75% of the vote. Something crazy. And that is how most districts are these days. Most districts are deep blue or deep red. And just think about the INC incentives that puts in front of a politician. Right. We can hope that elected officials have profiles and courage, but you know, let's, let's not pretend that that's a regular occurrence. They are self interest, we are self interested actors trying to win reelection. And so if your district is a deep blue district or a deep red district, the only threat to your reelection is your extreme flank.

Chris Cuomo (36:48)

Right.

James Talarico (36:48)

In a primary. Right. You don't worry. The general is, is predetermined because of gerrymandering.

Chris Cuomo (36:53)

Right.

James Talarico (36:54)

So the only threat is your primary. So I just, I say all that just to recognize that the systems we have encourage extremism. And so yeah, you could replace Marjorie Taylor Greene, but someone's gonna just gonna take her spot because the systems demand someone like that.

Chris Cuomo (37:10)

Yep.

James Talarico (37:11)

And so until we can actually reform the system on all these different levels, the media systems, the political systems, we're not gonna see different outcomes in our politics.

Chris Cuomo (37:22)

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James Talarico (40:29)

I think it has. The system itself has to be reformed. And I know this feels like process. It feels like inside baseball. You know, you talk to any political consultant and they'll be like, don't talk about redistricting. No one knows what that is. Right. Like, you got to talk about healthcare. And of course, those are issues that I care deeply about and do a lot of work on. But until we actually, you know, reform the system itself, redistricting, money in politics, social media platforms, until the structures are fixed, we're not going to see progress on those issues that we care about. We're not going to see a, you know, shared prosperity in this country. We're not going to see good public schools. We're not going to see universal health care. The system itself has to be fixed first. And so I know that is complicated and it takes a lot of explaining, but I don't know, I think people are ready to be talked to like adults. I do. I think the American people, maybe they don't know all the inside, inside out, you know, of the political system, but they know something is broken and they're ready for people who will explain it clearly and provide some real solutions that could, could make the system work for everybody again.

Chris Cuomo (41:35)

If you could get people to allow the solutions. The problem is that they won't change. I mean, you know, a beautiful issue in this regard is actually a very ugly issue that you live with intimately in Texas, which is immigration. Everybody knows the fixes. All you have to do is talk to anybody who works the line and they'll tell you that the main thing they want is more processing ability and different rules.

James Talarico (41:59)

Right.

Chris Cuomo (42:00)

Everybody knows that. But you'll never get it because the problem works better than the solutions. Now it's been skewed a little bit because the Democrats screwed it up so bad that it created an opportunity for a harshness that Trump grasped and is now doing did well with it. Now I think he's got overreach with the ICE deportations, and he's lost the majority on that. So there's a little bit of flux going on, but people aren't in the Solutions business. Mr. Talarico, which brings me to what the ultimate question is for you. Does Talarico stay in politics? Do, do you want to move up in terms of your ability to affect change? Do you think you're built for it? Do you think you have the appetite for it?

James Talarico (42:49)

These are, these are the questions I'm struggling with right now and, and doing a lot of praying and reflecting on that. I feel like I'm in a period of discernment in, in my public service career, and I'm wrestling with these questions because, you know, I, I made the decision to go to seminary in my second term largely because I just felt like I was hitting a brick wall in my public service as a state rep. And I wasn't. I didn't feel like I was making the progress that I wanted to make and making the impact I wanted to make. And so I was kind of questioning the whole thing. And the only thing that pulled me out of that spiral was going to seminary because I think it provided again, those roots into something a lot deeper than the, than the kind of the, the daily back and forth, the fights, the corruption of the, of our current political system. And, and I am trying to figure out if I can make more of an impact in the ministry because I do think that, you know, I'm on Tick Tock, I'm on Instagram, I'm talking about my faith and, and how it should inform, you know, our life together in the state, in this country. And I'm just, I'm flooded with comments from Gen Z and millennials who are just like, I've never heard this. Like, I've been looking for, for this perspective. If I, I've, I've had comments of like, if I had heard this when I was younger, I'd still be in the church. I've gotten personal messages from people who.

Chris Cuomo (44:16)

Say if they had a pastor like, you see, that's the problem with the church. The church is just a building. It's all about the man or woman inside of it and how they inspire you. I'm on the board of which is a religious community within Catholicism. And you know, there are so many. They don't run dioceses. They have a couple, but they don't do that. They do traveling ministries. And I've often said to a man who you've probably seen on TV named Father Edward Beck, he looks like Anderson Cooper, like, oddly like Anderson Cooper. And they have both been on cnn. They were there with me and he was there after I got fired. And I often said to him, you know, Edward, not just because I love you and you're my friend, man. If you were a pastor in a church, I would go twice a week, I would be there midweek and I'd see you again Sunday because you bring it alive for me. You animate it for me, you help me with it as a living instruction. But that's in short supply, brother. Especially not just in the church, but in public service.

James Talarico (45:20)

Well, I disagree with you that it's in short supply in the church because I'm going to, to seminary with some incredible young again millennial Gen Z pastors in training who are doing, who are talking about the same things I'm talking about, but they don't have the platform right now. But like, you know, you're in the Protestant church. Yes, Presbyterian.

Chris Cuomo (45:40)

Right.

James Talarico (45:41)

I'm talking about Baptist, I'm Presbyterian.

Chris Cuomo (45:43)

I'm talking about in the Catholic Church. I mean, they barely make him priests anymore.

James Talarico (45:48)

I mean that, yeah, that, and that's, that is true. I, but I'm, you know, I, I do think that rather than just following a guy on social media who you like, I do think you need to be in an actual community.

Chris Cuomo (46:00)

Yes.

James Talarico (46:00)

Flesh and blood in a physical place. Right. Instagram and Tick Tock are poor substitutes for, for community. But what I could do with this platform is I could help people find those communities or build those communities across the state, across the country. And that's really exciting for me.

Chris Cuomo (46:18)

That's your answer, James and May?

James Talarico (46:20)

Yeah, it may be more of an impact than running for a statewide office.

Chris Cuomo (46:24)

No, I see it the other way.

James Talarico (46:25)

I don't know.

Chris Cuomo (46:26)

I see it the other way. I think that the ministry is the cornerstone, but the edifice is built through the service. And the more reach you have, the better the problem is, and my father had this problem too, to bring it back to pop. The inspiration. Imagination is huge. I would argue it is the most important commodity in politics is capturing the imagination of people and giving them reason to believe and for them to then motivate the doing. But the problem is inspiration, yes. Aspiration, yes. Perspiration. Getting things done. So then you get some guy like me who runs against Talarico, and when I'm not busy lying about your past, I say, yeah, but he didn't do it. But he didn't do it. But they never did it. But they never did it. And that always works because it's almost impossible to get anything done because there is a legitimate position to just be opposing these days. I stopped Talarico and his crazy lefty pals from doing what they wanted to do. Vote for me. And that's the trick for someone like you is to be inspirational but also productive in a dynamic where people do not want you to get things done because then you are dangerous.

James Talarico (47:58)

Well, and it's part of why I don't want to go to Washington, because I, I can still get stuff done here at the state capitol. I mean, we were talking about how it's so nationalized. You know, there's less of a spotlight here at the state legislature. And so I'm actually, I can still work with my Republican colleagues across the aisle. You know, I passed a bill to allow incarcerated minors to graduate from high school. And I got to go speak at the first graduation in the prison and see these kids who, who are now able to turn their lives around. I passed the first ever cap on pre K class sizes. I mean, we had pre K classrooms here in Texas with 30, 40 kids in them because there was no limit to how many kids are in a classroom. And I was able to, to fix that. I passed a huge early childhood bill that's going to raise the quality of early childhood providers across the state and give them more funding. And early childhood is a game changer when it comes to brain development and giving kids that head Start they need before kindergarten. I passed the first insulin price cap here in Texas, a $25 copay cap. I'm a type one diabetic. And when I got diagnosed, I was 28 years old. I went to Walgreens to get my first 30 day supply of insulin. It cost me $684 for a 30 day supply of this medicine. That I needed to live. And I was able to take that experience and then pass a co pay cap so that other Texans don't have to go through that. So I'm making progress here at the state level. I am worried and I am fearful that that won't be possible at the national level. And so it's, it is part of the hesitance of running for something like U.S. senate. I desperately want to stop Ken Paxton from being my senator. I was part of the, the bipartisan coalition that impeached Ken Paxton for his corruption. So the idea of him being our US Senators is, is deeply worrying to me. But that said, I, I'm not sure that D.C. is a place where I can make the kind of progress I've made here.

Chris Cuomo (50:00)

That's a tough call. I mean, look, it isn't, it isn't. It's only a tough call because of the vanity of it. And that, that is what people do. Is that more? The eternal quest for more? As we talk about in our theology, the eternal quest for more. And it's never enough if it's about the agglomeration of power. And it is hard to argue unless you get deep, deep, deep into the faith of reform, that the U.S. senate is a place to get something done because right now it's no longer the most deliberative body in the world. It used to be. I grew up with those guys. I grew up with Moynihan and Al d' Amato and, you know, these guys who are like much deeper cats than what we see right now. Now it's just an extension of the House being in the Senate. So I mean, I guess if you were trying to make it back into what it was, then there is an ambition there. But otherwise you'll only be what you put out in your TikTok. That's all you'll be because you'll never get anything done.

James Talarico (51:06)

Right. And I, I, I value the, the work I do connecting with people outside of the Capitol. Like I think that's necessary to move public opinion, to inspire people, to organize people, to change the system. It is going to come from outside. It's not going to come from inside in, in my theory of change. But I, to just do that and not actually be making progress within the building, you know, that doesn't, it doesn't nourish me and it doesn't sustain me. I have to be able to do both. And, and I am very worried about whether that's possible in a place like, like Washington.

Chris Cuomo (51:43)

When do you have to Make a decision about what you do next.

James Talarico (51:47)

You know, we got the special session here in, in Austin. It's going to last until the end of August unless another one is called. We haven't even seen these new maps. So we're, we're kind of, you know, we're right in the middle of this, this redistricting fight. And I, I was hired to do a job by my constituents. 200, 000 people in Central Texas. And I've got to do that job before I start applying to other jobs right now. So you are right. Focuses right now.

Chris Cuomo (52:15)

But again, I don't. You know, it's funny, I really don't talk about my father that often. But be care, you know, not be careful, but be aware. Yes, they hired you to do a job, but what they really hired you to be was their agent was their advocate. My father didn't run for president for two reasons, and neither of them was because we're in the mob, okay? Which is what everybody assumed. The first one was very worthy. The second one was not. The very worthy reason was that my father did not believe he was good enough to be president. And a relative assessment was irrelevant to him. If you were to say to him, you don't think you can beat this chump Talarico, he would say, that is Talarico's question. My question is, am I good enough? And my answer is, no, I don't think so. The second reason was connected to the first. And I'm not good enough because I was hired to balance the budget and I can't get the budget done. So how can I run on fiscal responsibility when my own budget is held up in the state by the legislature? So they won't let me run because I can't get this done. Now I found that even as an 18 year old lacking because, well, of course they weren't gonna pass the budget if it meant you were gonna run. The Republicans didn't want you to run because you had a shot. So they were trying to help their party by keeping you where you were. And nobody cares whether or not you pass that budget or you get done with this redistricting calendar. It's all about whether or not you are in a position to advocate for their interests. So don't think that just because this job's not done yet, you can't do a different job because there is a transferability to the need. They need what they believe in about you in the largest way possible because it's you that they're betting on, not the position. And so don't pull a Mario, where you, you know, you don't run. Don't run if you don't want to run, but don't run because you think, well, I haven't finished this yet. They know you're not going to finish it. They know you probably can't even finish it. That there's no currency in finishing it. There's just currency in blaming people for it being unfinished. That's why we love debt ceiling, brinksmanship. We love it on the federal level. Whose fault is it going to be? Who's going to screw it up? That's where we are. And it needs to change, but ain't going to change today. And the higher you are up the food chain, the better a position you're in to make a real change.

James Talarico (55:15)

Yeah, thank you for sharing that, because that's very helpful. It is a paradox in our politics that, you know, if we were in the 1980s in New York City like you were, the idea that Donald Trump would be president and not Mario Cuomo. I mean, to me, it's like to have a man with such character and integrity not think that he's good enough, and then you have a man who, who lacks a lot of those things feel like, of course, that he could do it. That is kind of the tension in, in democracy, the people who have the ambition and the, I would say, maybe arrogance to, to think you can make decisions for, you know, 200,000 Central Texans or, you know, 400 million Americans, you know, that, that, that attracts a certain kind of person and it discourages certain kinds of people like your dad or maybe like me. And that's. I don't know what we do about that. But it hadn't, hadn't really occurred to me until you, you shared that you.

Chris Cuomo (56:14)

Got to change people's perception of what they're hiring. So Trump is a better fit. Look, Mario Cuomo was a tough guy who's from South Jamaica, Queens. He'd been, you know, grown up as an underclass. He was very aware of it. He was a legitimate anti elitist. Other than when I left the law to go into the media when I went to an Ivy League school. I've never seen my father more depressed when he was like, you want to go to those people? You know, he was a real one. It wasn't some artifice like it is today. He wasn't anti success. He just was anti those people in their closed club. But if you're hiring for someone to go into a dirty business and punish the People who were in it. Trump is the right guy over Tallarico or Cuomo because you and guys like my dad are not knee breakers. You are not going to do somebody dirty because it's how you get it done. You would be forever. That's why they called him Hamlet on the Hudson. He could not easily convince himself to do what was expedient when he knew it was wrong. Trump is unburdened by any larger principle other than the pragmatism of the moment. If it's good for him, the answer is yes. That's why someone can come and punch his kid in the face and then next week make a deal with him and he'll be okay with it. He's transactional. That's what matters.

James Talarico (57:51)

Life is easier that way.

Chris Cuomo (57:52)

And there is an argument to be made that in the current system, Trump is American politics. He is exactly what our politics is right now. You change what people want and he becomes an impossibility in terms of being elected. And you'll see his party when he's done. They're going to run right back to character counts, James. They're running right back to it and they're going to get all churched up again and they're gonna say, oh, no, no, no, this is who we've always been. They just can't be it right now because of Trump. But they're gonna be right back on. You know that they are the party of God. They are the Christians. They're not these godless lefties who are embracing these crazy Muslims and everybody else. We're the real ones. You'll see, as soon as he's gone, they're going right back to that. So I would love to keep checking in. I love that you are resonating the way you are and for the reasons that you are. You are a breath of fresh air. Yes, yes. Because we are in a really fetid, stale period and it is good to see somebody getting notice for not being notorious.

James Talarico (59:10)

Well, thank you for saying that. And thank you again for taking a chance on me because you had me on your, your TV show long before I got all this other attention. And so just want to thank you for that.

Chris Cuomo (59:25)

I told you, you know, you wish that guy was representing you in state or federal government. Why? Smart AF and driven by the right kinds of ambitions. Now, can he make it in this toxic soup that we call the two party system? I hope so. I hope so. I don't give a damn that he's a Democrat. I like him. Despite the fact that he's a Democrat because he's not in step with his own party. But I think that the measured nature, the reasonableness, the reliance on real wisdom and real virtue is so refreshing. And I got past the idea that it's not realistic. I mean, he's too much of an ideologue. I don't buy it. I think it's everything else that's going on in our system that's artificial. I actually think that's the authentic nature of leadership. What do you think? I'm Chris Cuomo. Thank you for subscribing and following me, checking me out on News Nation 8p and 11p every weekday night, joining the sub stack, signing up so I can give the money to people trying to get long Covid treatment. And if you sign up and pay, I will be getting your questions and your comments and that's what I'll deal with in my lives every week. So I'll see you there. And if you want to wear your independence, get your free agent gear and I'll see you right here at the Chris Cuomo Project. Let's get after it.