Podcast Summary: "Will Judges Save Democracy — or Kill It?"

The Chris Cuomo Project – November 18, 2025
Host: Chris Cuomo
Guest: Professor Alan Dershowitz

Overview:

This episode explores the critical role of the judiciary in American democracy. Chris Cuomo and renowned legal scholar Alan Dershowitz debate whether judges are safeguarding democracy or contributing to its decline. Their candid conversation dives into judicial politicization, the nature of democracy, cultural and generational rifts, and the persistent challenges facing American society and law. Both men challenge each other's preconceptions, offering deep and at times provocative insight into some of the biggest issues of the day.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Judiciary: Savior or Threat?

[02:47]

• Dershowitz strongly rejects the notion that the judiciary is democracy's last, best hope.

  • “Absolutely not... We are not a country of judges.” – Alan Dershowitz
  • He describes judges as elitist, unelected, unaccountable, and susceptible to both political pressure and authoritarian impulses, citing historical examples (Nazi Germany) of the judiciary enabling tyranny.
  • “Don’t count on judges. Count on the people. Count on elected people in the legislature.” – Dershowitz

• Cuomo presses that, amid executive and legislative dysfunction, the judiciary appears to be functioning best.

  • “The judiciary seems to be the only branch that is even approximating what it’s supposed to be doing. Fair point or no?” – Chris Cuomo
  • Dershowitz agrees the bar is low but maintains the judiciary is deeply politicized—outcomes often depend on the judge, not the law.

[07:49]

• Dershowitz on politicization:
  • “Judges have become so darn political and so darn partisan... I see it with good people, good judges, but they have Trump derangement syndrome or Biden derangement syndrome.”
  • Politically moderate or nuanced views have all but disappeared.

2. Democracy’s Survival: Institution or Individuals?

[05:36], [10:34]

• The real hope lies with people, not institutions.

  • Citing Learned Hand: “When democracy dies in the hearts of men and women, nothing can rescue it, not judges, not anybody else.” – Dershowitz
  • American democracy, he says, is threatened by simultaneous “pincer” movements from extreme right and left, both of whom leverage institutional mechanisms for their aims.
  • “We have to count on the people to preserve our liberty.” – Dershowitz

• Cuomo laments manufactured division in society and the lack of unifying common enemies or purpose.

  • “It’s all about division and advantage over the other side. There’s no reason to come together because we don’t have a common enemy.” – Cuomo

3. Campus Culture & Future Leadership

[10:34]

• Dershowitz warns that extremism on universities portends societal trouble.
  • “If you want to predict the future, look at... university campuses. If you can extrapolate 20 years forward, we’re in much, much deeper trouble.”
  • Argues that modern faculty indoctrinate students rather than teaching critical thinking.

4. Supreme Court, Gay Marriage, and Abortion

[15:25]

• On the Supreme Court refusing to revisit gay marriage:

  • Dershowitz is pleased but unsurprised:
  • “There is an enormous difference between gay marriage and abortion. Gay marriage does not have victims... Abortion, on the other hand, a third of the country thinks that you’re killing a baby... that is not an irrational view.”
  • He advocates for a woman’s right to choose but recognizes the opposite position isn’t irrational; he draws the line at plausible vs. implausible arguments.

• [18:31]

  • Cuomo pushes back on subjective standards of plausibility, noting that broad public belief does not always correspond to reason or science.

5. Organ Donation, Death Penalty, and Social Instruction

[20:54], [21:26]

• Dershowitz’s uncompromising stance on organ donation:

  • “I am totally intolerant of anybody who is not an organ donor.” – Dershowitz
  • Shares a personal story of his son donating organs after his passing as an example.

• On the death penalty and American violence:

  • Cuomo: “I’m fine with our society having a social instruction where you kill somebody for just about any reason you want. You want the death penalty? Go ahead... I don’t think America deserves that deference. I don’t think we’re that nonviolent.”
  • Dershowitz emphasizes the Bill of Rights is for freedom, not solely safety; any curtailment of liberty must be carefully balanced.

6. Crime, Punishment, and Human Nature

[26:14]

• Cuomo and Dershowitz discuss the limitations of law in containing vengeance and raw human response.
  • Dershowitz: “Part of the function of the law is to constrain human nature.”
  • They reflect on Cuomo’s father’s humility, principle, and the difficulty of maintaining principle in emotionally charged situations.

7. Historic and Personal Encounters with Bigotry

[29:28], [32:52]

• Recounting personal and family experiences with discrimination, both as Italian- and Jewish-Americans.
  • Stories of bias in employment and law, and solidarity across different minority groups.
  • “[If] there’s discrimination against anybody, it’s discrimination against everybody.” – Dershowitz

8. American Centrism versus Extremes

[37:26], [41:44]

• On New York politics and antisemitism:

  • Dershowitz decries bigotry being tolerated for strategic electoral gain, referencing recent New York elections and broader national trends.
  • Compares dangerous movements on the American left and right to historical precedents (though stops short of equating individuals to Hitler or Nazis).

• Cuomo argues that reactionary extremes now define political waves, with left and right mirroring each other’s tactics and excesses.

  • “The Democrats are gonna be consumed by the Democratic Socialists of America.” – Cuomo

9. The Internet, Extremism, and Accountability

[42:34]

• Dershowitz and Cuomo observe that internet fame incentivizes extremism, citing figures like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes.
  • “All you need is, you know, 2% of the population to support you and you’re a hero on the Internet. And in order to get that 2%, you have to be an extremist.” – Dershowitz

10. The Value of Debate and Open Dialogue

[43:41], [45:28]

• Dershowitz champions public debate and the importance of changing minds, lamenting its rare presence on elite campuses.

  • “Democracy only lives if it lives in the hearts and souls of individuals. And that’s why shows like yours and podcasts like yours are so important...” – Dershowitz

• Cuomo notes that meritocracy, and aspirational standards for leadership, are at risk in a society increasingly driven by resentment of privilege instead of pursuit of excellence.

  • “Right now, we just have the rest of people.” – Cuomo

11. Meritocracy, Affirmative Action, and Social Mobility

[47:50]

• Dershowitz frames opposition to meritocracy as a key driver of antisemitism in the modern U.S.
  • “If you are anti meritocratic, inevitably you have to be anti Israeli and anti Jewish.”
  • He supports affirmative action based on circumstance and disadvantage, but not solely on identity.

12. Israel/Palestine, Antisemitism, and Political Footballs

[49:27], [50:50]

• Both agree the debate over Israel and antisemitism has become deeply politicized and subject to binary partisanship, unlike in past eras.
  • Dershowitz asserts that left-wing campus antisemitism is more influential on the country's future than right-wing extremism.

13. Authoritarianism: Past and Present

[61:02]

• Cuomo asks whether the Trump administration marked a break with constitutional norms.
  • Dershowitz points to the enduring strength of the presidency and historical precedents of “authoritarian” leaders, but distinguishes between institutional and personal power.
  • “With Trump, it’s more personal; with Roosevelt, it was institutional...”
  • Still expects courts to act as a check when necessary (e.g., tariffs).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Dershowitz on the judiciary:
  • “Don’t count on judges. Count on the people.” [03:53]
• On democracy’s survival:
  • “When democracy dies in the hearts of men and women, nothing can rescue it...” – Dershowitz [05:48]
• Cuomo: “I am 55.”
  • Dershowitz: “I remember Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was 10 times or a centrist authoritarian.” [04:36]
• Dershowitz on gay marriage vs. abortion:
  • “Gay marriage is the easiest constitutional moral issue possible... Abortion... a third of the country thinks that you’re killing a baby.” [15:56]
• His stance on organ donation:
  • “I am totally intolerant of anybody who is not an organ donor.” [21:26]
• Dershowitz on antisemitism:
  • “If there’s discrimination against anybody, it’s discrimination against everybody.” [33:12]
• Reflections on centrism:
  • “America thrives at center... Centerism doesn’t mean do nothing. It means dialogue.” [51:32]
• Cuomo on public standards:
  • “Right now, we just have the rest of people.” [47:43]
• On debate’s key value:
  • “The more we talk about a subject, the more we tend to agree... That, to me, is the key to dialogue and discussion.” – Dershowitz [44:03]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:47] – Opening thesis: Can we trust judges to save democracy? Dershowitz’s unequivocal “no.”
• [07:49] – Judicial politicization and the “derangement syndrome” of the Trump/Biden eras.
• [10:34] – The role of academia and the worrying direction for future leaders.
• [15:10] – Supreme Court and gay marriage/abortion distinction.
• [20:54] – Organ donation and the ethics of death.
• [24:31] – The American relationship to violence, death penalty, and law.
• [29:28] – Stories of discrimination, solidarity between minority groups.
• [37:26] – Antisemitism in modern politics and the dangers of new extremes.
• [41:44] – Rise of radical politics: DSA, MAGA, and mirrored extremism.
• [43:41] – The internet’s role in incentivizing extremism.
• [45:28] – The indispensability of open debate for democracy’s survival.
• [47:50] – Meritocracy, excellence, and social resentment.
• [50:50] – Campus antisemitism vs. right-wing violence.
• [61:02] – Presidential authority and American authoritarian tradition.

Tone and Style

The conversation is direct and intellectually rigorous, blending mutual respect with sharp disagreements and personal anecdotes. Cuomo’s style mixes candor and skepticism; Dershowitz’s is erudite, sometimes polemic, but also reflective—unafraid to challenge orthodoxy or his own side. Their exchanges oscillate between philosophical depth and biting real-world commentary.

Concluding Thoughts

This episode offers penetrating analysis of the forces shaping (and fraying) American democracy—from the politicization of courts and divisions on campus, to the cultural drift from meritocracy and the existential dangers posed by polarization on both ends of the spectrum. Cuomo and Dershowitz agree on little outright, but together illuminate the risks of relying on institutions alone to safeguard democracy—insisting ultimately that the true guardians of democracy are the people, vigilant dialogue, and the courage to debate and change one’s mind.

Recommended for:
Listeners interested in constitutional law, political polarization, the future of democracy and America’s culture wars—especially those open to challenging, nuanced, and cross-cutting discussions.

(For reference, this summary focuses strictly on the substantive content and key ideas, omitting commercial breaks and promotional segments.)