The Chris Hedges Report: “Is Israel 'On the Brink?'” with Ilan Pappé
Episode Date: October 30, 2025
Host: Chris Hedges
Guest: Ilan Pappé, historian and author of Israel on the Brink

Overview

In this episode, Chris Hedges interviews Ilan Pappé, renowned Israeli historian and outspoken critic of Zionism, about the future of Israel amidst the actions of its current far-right government. Pappé introduces the concept of the 'State of Judea'—a theocratic, expansionist, and supremacist vision now dominating Israeli politics—and predicts that Israel is headed for profound internal disintegration. The discussion explores the intersection of ideology, political power shifts, regional dynamics, and potential pathways toward decolonization or collapse.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The ‘Neo Zionist’ State and the Shift to Extremism

• Pappé’s Thesis: Israel under Netanyahu represents an evolution to “Neo Zionism”—more openly supremacist, racist, and violent than earlier incarnations. (00:10)
  • “The old values of Zionism have become more extreme, more openly racist, more supremacist and more violent.” (A, 00:10)
  • State policy has shifted from “slow motion ethnic cleansing” to overt genocidal tactics, especially in Gaza and potentially the West Bank.
• State of Judea: Pappé describes the ascendancy of a fanatic religious settler class—about 750,000 in the West Bank—fusing Orthodox Judaism with religious Zionism.
  • This project seeks to “establish an Israeli empire that will dominate its Arab neighbors,” including Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria.

2. Israeli Attack on Hamas Negotiators & US Involvement

• Recent Event: Attempted assassination of the Hamas negotiating team in Qatar during ceasefire talks.
  • Why the attack?
    • Sabotage genuine negotiations (Netanyahu often undermines deals through provocation when a diplomatic solution is near).
    • Demonstrate Israeli dominance and disregard for Arab sovereignty/public international law. (03:02–06:04)
  • US Response: Pappé dismisses claims of ignorance from Trump and the American military:
    • “The Israeli Air Force would have not sent one airplane to that airspace without at least informing that headquarter in Qatar.” (B, 06:48)
    • Suggests US complicity and continued willingness to “gloss over” Israeli aggression for strategic interests.

3. Regional Dynamics: Power and Weakness

• Arab World’s Position: The real problem, as summarized by a former Egyptian minister, is not Israeli strength but “the Arab governments are weak.” (A, 08:50; B, 09:06)
• Previous Leaders: Pappé notes that past leaders like Nasser would never have tolerated such Israeli overreach.

4. From ‘State of Israel’ to ‘State of Judea’

• Historical Evolution:
  • The “State of Judea” ideal began post-1967 in West Bank settlements—a marginal ideology then, mainstream now.
  • Shift in power base: Large populations of Mizrahi Jews (Jews from Arab and North African backgrounds) were historically marginalized by Ashkenazi (European) Jews but later became the key supporters—and even leadership—of the new religious-nationalist movement. (14:36–15:47)
    • “One of the best way for an Arab Jew to be accepted…is to display hatred and racism towards the Arab and in fact towards his or her own identity.” (B, 15:47)
  • Ascendancy of Religious Nationalism: Netanyahu’s alliance with the “State of Judea” coalition in 2022 granted them power over critical ministries and security services.

5. Religious Mythology in Politics

• Politics increasingly filtered through biblical narrative, echoing the US Christian right (18:46–19:23).
  • Campaigns to “raise the Al Aqsa Mosque” and rebuild the ancient Temple provoke existential risks for regional stability.
  • “There is something called the Institute for Building the Third Temple, supposedly an academic institute.” (B, 19:23)
• Expansionist Vision: Some factions envision an Israel stretching not just through historic Palestine but into Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.
  • “Their ambition is…to really rebuild that ancient biblical Israel…and regarding many of the areas west of the River Jordan, such as Jordan, as part of that building biblical kingdom.” (B, 22:46)

6. Implications for Israel's Stability

• Growing Internal Divisions: The split between secular Israelis and the new religious right is profound and destabilizing.
• Possibilities for Collapse: Pappé compares potential outcomes to South Vietnam (complete state erasure) or South Africa (regime change and transformation). (24:55)
• Contributing Factors:
  • Widening isolation and potential sanctions from the international community.
  • Rising economic unsustainability; Israel increasingly dependent on US aid ($15–16 billion since 2023).
  • Young diaspora Jews, especially in the US, are becoming alienated from Israel.
  • The emergence of a new, more effective Palestinian leadership among the younger generation.

7. Role of Egypt and Regional Confrontation

• Gaza Crisis and Egypt’s Dilemma: Egypt faces immense pressure as Israel threatens to push Palestinians into Sinai. (30:46–31:39)
• Egypt resists the expulsion but may be forced into confrontation.
• International reaction—especially if Israel tries to build a ‘refugee city’ on the border—could trigger severe sanctions and broader escalation.

8. Pathways of Disintegration

• No “Rosy” Decolonization: Pappé’s vision includes setbacks, violence, and protracted struggles.

  • “Decolonization is a messy affair. There is not one decolonization in history that…was non violent at all and went smoothly.” (B, 35:59)

• Critical steps:

  • Formation of a unified Palestinian liberation vision, moving beyond a two-state solution.
  • Further Israeli annexation of occupied territories.
  • Political shifts in the US could drastically alter Israel’s support base.
  • Demographic and societal change via both Israeli Jewish emigration and the return of Palestinians.

• On potential coexistence:

  • “The basic impulse is not revenge, not retribution, but rather restitution…” (B, 41:22)
  • Looks to models of pre-1948 coexistence among Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

9. Military Exhaustion and Attrition

• IDF Pressures:

  • Rising rates of reservist non-attendance and higher-than-reported casualties; significant emigration of Israelis since October 2023 (claims up to 500,000). (42:52–43:47)
  • “The reserve soldiers have become the regular army because they serve so much since 2023 that they are serving almost the same days in a year as does a regular conscript.” (B, 43:47)
  • Israel’s military doctrine is ill-suited to prolonged wars of attrition.

• Declining Social Cohesion:

  • “There is an exhaustion that also reflects the lack of social cohesion between those who serve and those who do not serve.” (B, 47:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ideological Extremism:

  • “The old values of Zionism have become more extreme, more openly racist, more supremacist and more violent.” (A, 00:10)

• On the State of Judea:

  • “The state that they are looking at, which I call the State of Judea, is swallowing gradually the State of Israel.” (B, 13:53)

• Concerning Regional Power:

  • “The problem is not that Israel is strong, it's that the Arab governments are weak.” (A quoting Egyptian minister, 08:50)

• On US-Israeli Collusion:

  • “I think that the Americans knew that this was coming…they decided not to stop it by any powerful or forceful means and hoped…they have succeeded in somehow glossing over this incident.” (B, 06:48)

• On Decolonization:

  • “Decolonization is a messy affair. There is not one decolonization in history that lacked any, that was non violent at all and went smoothly.” (B, 35:59)

• Regarding Palestinian Aspirations:

  • “The basic impulse is not revenge, not retribution, but rather restitution, rather wishing to rebuild, build their normal life that were theirs before the arrival of Zionism.” (B, 41:22)

Important Timestamps

• 00:10 – Chris Hedges introduces Ilan Pappé and the central thesis of “Israel on the Brink”
• 03:02 – Pappé on Netanyahu’s motives for attacking Hamas negotiators in Qatar
• 06:48 – Pappé assesses the US response and collusion
• 09:40 – The meaning and rise of the “State of Judea”
• 14:36 – Social and racial dynamics between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Jews
• 18:46 – The biblical lens: politics, myth, and the campaign to raze Al Aqsa
• 22:46 – Israeli regional ambitions: from Gaza to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan
• 24:55 – Internal and external drivers of Israel’s potential collapse
• 30:46 – Egypt, Gaza, and the risk of regional war
• 35:21 – Pappé’s imagined scenario for disintegration and pathways beyond Zionism
• 42:52 – Hedges asks about IDF pressures, internal exhaustion, and emigration
• 43:47 – Military exhaustion and its implications for Israel’s future

Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, provocative exploration of Israel’s current trajectory, as interpreted by a leading critical historian. Ilan Pappé situates the dramatic political, ideological, and military shifts inside Israel in a broader historical and geopolitical context, arguing forcefully that the present “State of Judea” project not only poses grave risks for Palestinians and regional stability but also sows the seeds of Israel’s own internal fragmentation and possible collapse. Listeners are left to grapple with Pappé’s compelling, unsettling vision of a future ripe with both danger and transformative possibility.