The Chris Hedges Report

Episode: "The Palestine Lab: Exporting Occupation Technology" (with Antony Loewenstein)

Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Chris Hedges
Guest: Antony Loewenstein, journalist and author of The Palestine Laboratory: How Israel Exports the Technology of Occupation around the World

Episode Overview

In this episode, Chris Hedges interviews Antony Loewenstein, whose book and documentary film The Palestine Laboratory expose how Israel uses the occupied Palestinian territories as a “weapons laboratory,” trialing and perfecting surveillance and military technologies in Gaza and the West Bank, then exporting these “battle tested” tools globally. Their discussion traverses the mechanisms of occupation, the global proliferation of Israeli surveillance and arms technology, Western complicity, and the broader political ramifications.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. “The Palestine Laboratory”: Israel’s Weapon Testing Ground

• Hedges introduces the thesis: Israel’s arms and surveillance industries use the occupied Palestinian territories as a proving ground before marketing these technologies worldwide ([00:10]).
• Staggering statistics: Israeli arms sales hit nearly $14.8 billion in 2024, double the export value from five years prior.
• Concept of “battle-tested”: Israeli weapons and surveillance tools gain market value precisely because they’ve been used on Palestinians.

Quote:
"[Palestinians] are the human laboratory rats…to test out its weapon systems and surveillance technology. Once used on a captive population in Gaza, often with lethal results, these weapons and technologies are certified as, quote, unquote, battle tested and sold."
— Chris Hedges [00:10]

2. The Expansion and Export of Occupation Tech

• The proliferation of Israeli tech far predates 9/11, with origins traced to 1948 and especially post-1967 ([03:41]).
• AI-driven warfare: Systems like facial recognition, drones, and “killer quadcopters” have shifted focus from precision targeting to mass destruction, enabled by automated profiling and often minimal human oversight.

Quote:
"The whole argument of using AI for warfare, of course those who argue for it say it makes war cleaner and nicer, when in fact… the aim wasn't pinpoint targeting, it was mass destruction."
— Antony Loewenstein [03:41]

• Censorship and Marketing:
  • Israeli military censors decide what gets published—even approving stories on AI warfare to attract foreign buyers ([05:15]).

3. Mechanisms of Surveillance: ‘Red Wolf’, ‘Blue Wolf’, & AI Targeting

• Red Wolf, Blue Wolf (West Bank):

  • Israeli soldiers regularly collect and upload biometric and behavioral data on Palestinians to databases without their consent ([07:45]).
  • Data used to restrict movement, educational/employment opportunities, and overall life.

• AI Targeting in Gaza:

  • After October 7, Israel leveraged this data, using US-based cloud providers (Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Palantir) to accelerate data processing and targeting.
  • Human involvement in selecting strike targets is minimal (approx. 15–20 seconds).

Quote:
"It's fed into a system and it spits out so called targets… there is maybe a 15 to 20 second human interaction. A target appears on someone's screen, they say yes or no. Does that person leave… or does that person die?"
— Antony Loewenstein [07:45]

• International complicity:
  • Major tech companies play a direct role by providing cloud infrastructure, making them “legally liable… in their direct involvement and complicity in genocide” ([11:18]).

4. Total Surveillance and ‘Digital Colonialism’

• Hebron as the Laboratory:
  • Hebron, the West Bank’s most surveilled city, serves as a model for exporting these technologies.
  • Israeli military and settlers install extensive camera networks, collect biometrics, and limit movement, even preventing Palestinians from entering their own homes ([12:41], [15:36]).
• Behavioral monitoring:
  • Systems use video analytics to infer intent or emotional state, punishing anger or protest both physically and through digital surveillance ([15:54]).

Quote:
"We, being Palestinians, therefore need to look not angry, kind of normal, kind of not people pissed off… we've self-censored ourselves hugely because we are scared of speaking honestly about what we are thinking, what we are feeling. And that's the impact."
— Antony Loewenstein [15:54]

• Impact:
  • Profound psychological dehumanization and chilling effect on free expression, both offline and on social media.

5. Weapons Industry: From Gaza to Global Markets

• Major companies:
  • Elbit, Rafael, and others display “battle tested” items at international arms fairs, including in Arab countries ([18:05]).
• Weapon types used and exported:
  • Killer drones (quadcopters with machine guns), robot dogs, advanced AI munitions, and psychological weapons (e.g., drones broadcasting baby cries as a lure for targeting) ([22:00]).

Quote:
"Robot dogs… being sent into buildings to try to gather intelligence… drones suddenly appear at nighttime emitting sounds of babies crying… This is on one hand psychological terror, but also actual terror."
— Antony Loewenstein [22:18]

• “Self-reliance” drive:
  • Anticipating potential boycotts, Israeli companies now accelerate domestic weapons manufacturing ([18:05]).

6. The Pegasus Story: Spyware as Diplomacy and Control

• Pegasus as state tool:
  • Israeli spyware Pegasus (by NSO Group) popularized the model of government-enabled hacking, going beyond any “rogue” company narrative ([27:06]).
• International proliferation:
  • Sold widely (even to repressive regimes); continued use and lobbying efforts in the US.
• Pegasus and Jamal Khashoggi:
  • Used against Khashoggi’s family before and after his assassination ([31:42]).
• Sanctions:
  • US sanctions on NSO were partly turf wars with American spyware firms, rather than human rights concerns ([30:26]).

Quote:
"NSO Group… essentially Netanyahu was using that as almost like a form of spyware diplomacy. He was going around the world selling it to Rwanda and India and Hungary, etc."
— Antony Loewenstein [27:08]

• Wider industry:
  • Pegasus is only the “tip of the iceberg”; competitors like Paragon operate similarly and remain largely unregulated.

7. Political Consequences: Israel as Far-Right Global Model

• Arms trade and diplomatic leverage:
  • Israel’s arms and surveillance sales to India, Mexico, and elsewhere have led those nations to vote with Israel at the UN and adopt similar policing/ethno-nationalist models ([34:25]).

Quote:
"Israel is…becoming more and more the model for the global far right... and vice versa. And I see in the film that it really reminded me of Israel's relationship with apartheid South Africa… they admired each other's racism."
— Antony Loewenstein [34:25]

• Mutual admiration:
  • Israel’s ethno-nationalist state is now held up as an “ethno-nationalist wet dream” by far-right leaders globally (e.g., India’s Modi, European nationalists), linked by shared anti-minority politics.

8. Germany: Guilt, Repression, and Complicity

• Germany as Israel’s second-largest arms supplier and a model for draconian Western repression ([37:17]).
  • “Historical guilt” for the Holocaust has been manipulated into unconditional support for Israeli policy, even at the cost of free speech and protest.
  • Arrests and state violence are now directed not just at Palestinian/German Arabs, but also anti-Zionist Jews ([37:42]).
  • Media, including far-right outlets, aggressively silence critics.

Quote:
"They believe that the way that you atone for your former crimes is to support new crimes committed by Israel."
— Antony Loewenstein [37:42]

• Broader warning:
  • Crackdowns on Palestine solidarity are “canaries in the coal mine” for rising authoritarianism across Western democracies.

9. Memorable Moment / Closing Remark

• Chris Hedges:
  • “Well, you have the grandchildren of Nazis arresting Jewish activists and charging them as anti-Semites. You don't know what world that comes out of.”
    [41:45]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "AI targeting has become in Israel or Gaza, ubiquitous. And I know that other countries will want to use the same system and want to get advice from Israel how to do it…"
  — Antony Loewenstein [10:40]

• "It's a system that by definition dehumanises Palestinians… It's at its most extreme, the most extreme example of dozens, if not hundreds of cameras impacting people's ability to get even to their own homes."
  — Antony Loewenstein [13:35]

• "The Abraham Accords that Trump trumpets is really an arms deal. It's always been an arms deal."
  — Antony Loewenstein [25:11]

• "If you think that attacking peaceful pro-Palestine sentiment is somehow acceptable in a democracy in this kind of way, believe me, it doesn't stop with Palestine."
  — Antony Loewenstein [41:00]

Timestamps for Major Topics

• [00:10] Main theme introduction & overview of Israel's weapons industry
• [03:41] History and development of Israeli occupation technology
• [07:45] Surveillance systems ('Red Wolf', 'Blue Wolf'), AI targeting
• [12:41] Real-time surveillance and control in Hebron, behavioral analytics
• [18:05] Israeli weapons industry, arms fairs, and global sales
• [22:00] Drone warfare, robot dogs, psychological weapons
• [27:06] Pegasus spyware, global proliferation, and regulation failure
• [31:42] Pegasus in the Khashoggi case and Saudi-Israel cooperation
• [34:25] Israel as a global far-right model; arms sales shaping international politics
• [37:17] Germany’s repression of pro-Palestine dissent; Europe’s complicity and danger to democracy
• [41:45] Closing observations on Germany, anti-Semitism, and global authoritarian trends

Tone & Language

• The conversation is direct, urgent, and at times incendiary—reflecting the gravity of mass surveillance, human rights abuses, and ethical crises discussed.
• Loewenstein’s analysis is unflinching and connects on-the-ground realities to broader global trends.

Summary Flow

This episode offers a sobering look into how Israel’s occupation and treatment of Palestinians underpins a lucrative global industry of surveillance and weapons technology—one now exported, admired, and replicated by regimes worldwide. The Israeli model, perfected in Gaza and the West Bank, finds resonance among far-right and authoritarian states, shaping not just military policy but the broader contours of global governance. The technology and its commercialization, Loewenstein and Hedges argue, endanger basic rights, democracy, and set a dangerous precedent for the future.

For further resources, visit Chris Hedges’ Substack: chrishedges.substack.com