The Chris Hedges Report

Episode: The Toxic Pursuit of Greatness in Chess (w/ Brin-Jonathan Butler)

Date: December 6, 2025
Host: Chris Hedges
Guest: Brin-Jonathan Butler, journalist and author

Episode Overview

This episode explores the obsession, pathology, and unique subculture of competitive chess, as well as the high personal costs of striving for greatness in the chess world. Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Chris Hedges converses with author Brin-Jonathan Butler about his book The Grandmaster: Magnus Carlsen and the Match That Made Chess Great Again, examining the 2016 World Championship as a lens to interrogate the dark seduction and consequences of chess obsession—drawing parallels to addiction, boxing, and broader questions of winning, genius, and loss.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chess as an All-Consuming Obsession

• Chess’s Origins & Dangers (00:10–02:58):
  Chess originated in the Far East; both host and guest agree it's akin to a narcotic—intensely absorbing and potentially destructive. The highest-level players often develop a one-dimensional focus, sometimes costing their sanity or basic life skills.

  "Chess, like a powerful narcotic, consumes lives and has a propensity to drive its greatest players, such as Bobby Fischer, to insanity."
  —Chris Hedges (00:10)

• On Addiction & Perfection (02:58–04:17):
  Butler clarifies: not everyone is at risk, but those on the "outer reaches" of ambition seem particularly vulnerable. The discipline, completeness, and seductive order of chess are dangerous to certain obsessive personalities.

  "For a certain cast of mind, philosophy or chess are dangerous things…nothing else can really compete with it."
  —Brin-Jonathan Butler (02:58)

2. The Tragic Story of Peter Winston

• Chess Prodigy & Downfall (04:17–06:20):
  Winston was a math prodigy whose family actively tried to avoid chess for fear of obsession. Nevertheless, he fell into chess, became a national hope as the “next Bobby Fischer,” but ultimately struggled with mental health and disappeared at age 20 after a breakdown.

  "He became the first next Bobby Fischer. And that proved to be a very dangerous thing...eventually fell into mental health problems, such that he was institutionalized."
  —Butler (04:25)

3. The Pathologies of Greatness

• Obsession, Infantilism, and Status (06:20–11:58):
  The top tier of chess is marked by intellectual obsession, poverty (most players need a second job), and status-obsessed culture. High-level chess doesn’t cultivate broad skills; many top players lack higher education, fixating wholly on the game.

  "Only the top 30 players make a reasonable living playing chess...everybody else had to have a second job."
  —Butler (07:10)

• Sadism and the Joy of Defeat (10:05–10:36):
  Chess at the highest level revolves around dominance and the psychological destruction of the opponent (often expressed with violent metaphors).

  "[Magnus Carlsen] says, 'Yes, I do. I enjoy it when I see my opponent really suffering.'"
  —Hedges, paraphrasing Carlsen (10:05)

4. Fischer, Carlsen, and the Culture of Genius

• Fischer vs. Carlsen (11:58–13:45):
  Butler distinguishes Fischer's artistic, romantic approach from Carlsen's methodical style, noting Fischer’s cultural impact during the Cold War, and his tragic psychological decline.

  "Fischer is an artist and Magnus Carlsen is a drone."
  —Quote from Butler’s book, cited by Hedges (11:58)

  "He became the most famous cautionary tale arguably in the history of the sport."
  —Butler (13:45)

• The Descent of Bobby Fischer (13:50–15:11):
  Fischer, once a national hero, descended into paranoia and antisemitism; after 9/11, his rhetoric became vitriolic, further alienating him from society.

  "He just became very unhinged and darkly menacing in almost all of his views..."
  —Butler (14:28)

5. Chess & Boxing Analogy

• Parallels with Boxing and Fame (15:11–21:26):
  Chess’s culture, like boxing, is marked by sadism, humiliation, status, and harsh stakes. Both attract the obsessive, risk impoverishment for most, and compensate only a tiny elite at the top.

  "The mental equivalent [of boxing] is being dominated, being humiliated in front of the world as you're playing."
  —Butler (17:15)

  "In both games, there's no pension plan, there's no health care. These people are very alone in what they're doing, very isolated."
  —Butler (21:14)

• Grandmasters’ Struggles (21:26–23:10):
  Many chess grandmasters live in near-poverty or have menial side jobs. Even highly educated individuals are often overtaken by the addiction to chess.

  "He was only successful enough to sleep under a chessboard in Washington Square Park...I did meet people at the Chess forum who had one or two PhDs who had just given up careers."
  —Butler (21:43)

6. Insight on Obsession and Genius

• Danger of Obsession (31:03–34:21):
  Chess is mostly benign, but for a “certain cast of mind,” it becomes dangerous and consuming, akin to drug addiction or gambling. Attempts to “manufacture” genius (as with prodigy coaching) misunderstand that real obsession cannot be nurtured.

  "Fischer couldn't have been anybody but Bobby Fischer. Kafka couldn't have been anybody but Kafka."
  —Butler (32:20)

  "The rarefied air of these people who have the intellect and the devotion and the capabilities..."
  —Butler (33:11)

• Limited Transferable Skills (34:21–35:21):
  Mastery in chess does not translate readily into broader competence—many masters remain childlike in other areas, reflecting the monomania demanded for top-level play.

7. Winners vs. Losers & Human Truth

• The Value of Losing (46:37–49:51):
  Butler eloquently describes how losers, not winners, are forced to develop self-awareness and wisdom, while winners remain isolated, often unreflective, and sometimes driven by negative traits.

  "Winners are rarely self aware. Losers have no choice. The fundamental irrevocable lesson of life and nature is loss. Winning is a temporary illusion."
  —Hedges, reading Butler's book (47:40)

  "I do think there's a defense mechanism about trying to vanquish whatever this feeling is about, I think the role of death in our lives or irrelevance or ending up a footnote."
  —Butler (49:17)

  "I haven't met many of the so-called winners or world champions who in their personal life didn't represent a lot of... cautionary tale..."
  —Butler (53:31)

8. Other Notable Themes & Quotes

• Kubrick on Chess and Creativity (28:22–29:22):
  Chess develops discipline—teaching the importance of pausing before action. It’s more valuable for preventing mistakes than incubating new ideas.

  "Among a great many other things that chess teaches you is to control the initial excitement you feel when you see something that looks good."
  —Stanley Kubrick, as quoted by Hedges (28:25)

• Status Culture & Masculinity (10:23–11:58; 32:06–34:21; 39:32–42:16):
  Extreme competitiveness and status anxiety, often amplified by toxic masculinity and misogyny, persist at every level of elite chess. The Polgar sisters, especially Judit, helped break these patterns, but pervasive misogyny remains.

  "Chess has been...tremendously misogynistic claims about the female brain just not being able to compete with men in this area."
  —Butler (39:56)

  "All three of [Polgar's] daughters became tremendous talents. And Judit...became the most talented and accomplished. She was just an incredible pioneer."
  —Butler (41:24)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Chess is vaccinated against players’ delusions of self worth. However special you think you are, enter the game’s competitive circuits and your rating is held up for all to see and recalibrated accordingly. After each game on the chessboard, the world chess champion Emmanuel Lasker observed, lies and hypocrisy do not survive long." —Chris Hedges (01:27)

• "Destroying a man's ego is the greatest thrill in chess." —Bobby Fischer, quoted by Butler (09:03)

• "[Harry Benson] said that Fischer's eyes, exactly like Muhammad Ali's just before the bell rings, were like a snake looking at their opponent. That they just had this degree of killer instinct." —Butler (23:41)

• "The discipline required to evaluate and put [ideas] to use tends to be the real work." —Stanley Kubrick, quoted by Hedges (28:25)

• "For a certain type of person who is obsessive...you have to keep us from doing this because it takes over Our lives, those things." —Butler (32:06)

• "The popular narrative is that winners show their character and strength in finding a way to win, while losers are weak and lack the necessary mettle. Yet winning is a single note, pure in tone, but alone. …The fundamental irrevocable lesson of life and nature is loss. Winning is a temporary illusion." —Hedges, reading Butler (46:37, 47:40)

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:10 | Chess as invention, narcotic, and destructive obsession | | 02:58 | Danger of chess for obsessive minds | | 04:25 | Life and tragic story of Peter Winston | | 06:41 | Causes of mental fragility and failure among chess prodigies | | 07:10 | Poverty and lack of fallback for most elite players | | 09:03 | Fischer’s sadism and the aim to destroy the opponent’s ego | | 10:05 | Carlsen’s admission of enjoying opponents’ suffering | | 11:58 | Fischer as artist vs. Carlsen as drone; the distinction explained | | 13:50 | Fischer’s psychological decline and antisemitic outbursts | | 15:11 | Analogies between chess and boxing; sadism, humiliation, and drama | | 21:26 | Menial jobs and poverty among chess grandmasters | | 23:41 | Harry Benson and the “killer instinct” in Fischer and Ali | | 28:22 | Stanley Kubrick on chess, discipline, and creativity | | 31:03 | Obsession, addiction, and genetic vs. nurtured prodigy | | 34:21 | Narrow transferability of chess mastery, childlike development | | 35:56 | Age, burnout, and the decline of champions | | 37:39 | Scandal and cheating: suicide among grandmasters | | 39:32 | Misogyny in chess and the Polgar sisters as pioneers | | 42:16 | Richard Brody on chess and philosophy: when genius is dangerous | | 46:37 | On loss, self-awareness, and the insight of losers | | 47:40 | Power, risk, and the Promethean fate of greatness | | 49:51 | Most celebrated winners aren’t self-aware; fear and insecurity | | 53:31 | The cautionary tale behind the “winners” |

Final Reflections

Butler and Hedges together dissect the paradox at the center of chess greatness:

• The singular obsession required to excel often leaves its practitioners isolated, impoverished, and stunted in other areas of life.
• The allure of dominance and the quest for status are often underpinned by insecurity, alienation, and even self-destruction.
• While a small group finds glory (and makes financial gains), most “great” are left with little except the hollow aftermath of their sacrifices.
• The episode paints chess not as a uniquely pathological pursuit, but as an eloquent, cautionary metaphor for many forms of genius and ambition—especially when society deifies winners and neglects the deeper human truths found among losers.

For further exploration of these themes, Butler’s book and the full episode offer rich, absorbing detail, dark humor, and poignant social commentary on the price of greatness, not just in chess, but in life itself.