06.11.25 Save More On Home Internet / Seek The Total Price

Summary

The Clark Howard Podcast - Episode Released on June 11, 2025 Episode Title: Save More On Home Internet / Seek The Total Price

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Introduction

In this episode of The Clark Howard Podcast, host Clark Howard delves into the escalating costs of home Internet services and offers actionable strategies to help listeners save money. Additionally, Clark addresses several listener questions, providing expert advice on topics ranging from mortgage payments to retirement planning. The episode also includes a candid discussion on deceptive pricing practices, commonly referred to as "junk fees."

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Rising Home Internet Costs and Emerging Alternatives

Clark Howard opens the discussion by highlighting a significant increase in home Internet costs. Referencing a CNET survey, he points out that the average consumer is paying nearly $200 more annually for Internet services compared to the previous year.

"The CNET survey found that the average consumer in an apartment or a home is paying just under $200 more right now for Internet per year than you did a year ago." (02:00)

Factors Driving the Price Hike:

1. Declining Customer Base for Cable Providers: Major cable companies like Comcast are experiencing a loss in customers due to substantial price increases. Despite reporting strong profits, their customer base is shrinking as consumers seek more affordable options.

2. Increased Competition: The landscape for Internet service providers has broadened significantly. Consumers now have access to alternatives beyond the traditional cable or local phone companies, including:

   • Independent Fiber Providers: Offering direct fiber connections to homes at competitive rates.
   • Google Fiber (G Fiber): Although initially slowing its expansion, Google Fiber is gradually rolling out services in more areas at reduced prices.
   • Wireless Home Internet: Providers like Verizon and T-Mobile now offer wireless Internet services, especially beneficial for rural areas.
   • Starlink: Providing high-speed, reliable Internet for rural families through portable units.

Clark emphasizes the importance of consumers actively seeking these alternatives to avoid being overcharged by monopolistic providers.

"Don't be somebody who's just being taken advantage of by the cable monster or the monopoly local phone company. No, you've got options." (05:00)

Strategies to Save on Internet Costs:

• Comparison Shopping: Clark advises listeners to thoroughly compare different Internet plans, taking into account not just the base price but also any additional fees or unnecessary speed packages.

• Leverage Promotions for New Customers: Many providers offer discounted rates for new customers, allowing significant savings compared to the standard rates charged to existing customers.

• Assess Actual Needs: Often, consumers may be paying for higher Internet speeds than necessary. Evaluating and adjusting the service to match actual usage can lead to substantial cost reductions.

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Listener Questions and Expert Advice

The latter part of the episode features Clark addressing several listener-submitted questions, offering personalized financial guidance.

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1. Mortgage Payments vs. Investment Contributions

Listener: Jeff from Nebraska inquires about whether to continue paying down his mortgage or resume investment contributions.

"Our question is... should we keep putting extra money toward the mortgage balance or focus on our Roth IRAs?" (07:05)

Clark's Advice:

Clark recommends prioritizing investments in Roth IRAs over additional mortgage payments, especially given the current mortgage rate of 4.25% with an expected increase. He argues that Roth IRAs typically offer higher long-term returns compared to the interest saved from paying down a mortgage early.

"I'd rather you spend this time moving forward putting that money into Roth IRAs for each of you instead of prepaying on the mortgage." (08:03)

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2. Co-ownership of a Family Boat

Listener: Ira Drew from Alabama seeks advice on retitling a family fishing boat to both his and his father's names and the implications for insurance.

"How should we go about retitling the boat and insuring it under both our names?" (09:24)

Clark's Advice:

Clark strongly advises retitling the boat to include both names. This step ensures that both parties have legal rights to the vessel and facilitates joint insurance coverage, thereby safeguarding against potential future disputes or legal complications.

"It's really easy to retitle the boat and it's not expensive... just offer to buy your dad lunch after you both go to the title office." (10:07)

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3. Velocity Banking and Debt Management

Listener: Kimberly from Virginia asks about the effectiveness and risks associated with velocity banking as a method to pay off debt.

"What are your thoughts on velocity banking for getting debt free?" (10:47)

Clark's Advice:

Clark explains that velocity banking, which typically involves using a home equity line of credit (HELOC) to pay off a mortgage, carries significant risks. He cautions against converting a fixed-rate mortgage into a variable-rate loan and highlights the potential for increased debt if not managed meticulously.

"Paying off a mortgage with a floating rate home equity line of credit is normally a bad idea... You're playing a bit with fire." (11:03)

He concludes that unless an individual is fully aware of the associated risks and can maintain strict financial discipline, velocity banking is not advisable.

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The Prevalence of "Junk Fees" in Modern Commerce

Clark shifts focus to a broader issue affecting consumers: deceptive pricing practices, often disguised as "junk fees." He laments the widespread nature of these practices across various industries, including Internet services, entertainment, and travel.

"The idea of bait and switch... today, bait and switch is so common, we call them junk fees now." (17:05)

Examples Highlighted:

• Internet Services: Websites may advertise a low monthly rate, but the actual cost skyrockets once additional fees are included.

  "It was really funny because there was a TV ad I saw that showed an Internet service for $30 a month... turned out to be $48 a month once all the junk fees were added in." (18:00)

• Concert and Event Tickets: Initial ticket prices are often inflated by hidden fees during the checkout process, sometimes doubling the original cost.

  "My favorite... Live Nation... parking can be twice as much due to junk fees." (19:00)

Clark's Recommendations:

• Total Price Transparency: Encourage consumers to use platforms or features that display the total cost upfront, including all fees and taxes.

• Avoid Aggressive Shopping Tactics: Warn against committing to purchases without understanding the full financial implications.

• Stay Informed and Critical: Urge listeners to remain vigilant and question discrepancies in advertised versus actual prices.

"Don't let people take advantage of you... comparison shop and make a smart decision for your wallet." (19:30)

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Additional Discussions

European Airline Carry-On Policies

Listener: Mike from Georgia shares his frustrating experience with oversized carry-on fees on European airlines.

Clark advises:

• Check Specific Airline Regulations: Airlines like Ryanair may have stricter or non-standard size requirements.

• Purchase Extra Allowances in Advance: To avoid exorbitant fees, pre-pay for checked bags when possible.

• Shopping for Compliant Luggage: Recommend purchasing carry-ons that meet European size standards through retailers like Amazon.

"Some airlines in Europe don't follow the European standard and they enforce a smaller one... it cost us around €20 to prepay for the bag and send it as a checked bag." (21:00)

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Optimizing Airline Miles for Upgrades

Listener: Martha from Oregon seeks advice on using Alaska Airlines miles to book first-class tickets for her Hawaii trip.

Clark suggests:

• Book Economy First: Secure coach seats using miles and monitor for upgrade opportunities.

• Patience Pays Off: Regularly check for mile redemption deals that may allow for affordable upgrades without exhausting miles too quickly.

• Prioritize Travel Experience: Weigh the benefits of saving miles for other financial priorities over the immediate upgrade.

"I'd rather you use the difference in equivalent money you're having to pay to stay in a nicer place in Kauai when you're there." (26:22)

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Transitioning from Traditional to Roth 403B

Listener: Rhonda from Texas plans to switch from a traditional 403B to a Roth 403B and is concerned about the tax implications.

Clark advises:

• Gradual Transition: Move funds incrementally to avoid a hefty tax bill in any single year.

• Maintain Existing Accounts: Continue contributing to the traditional 403B while building the Roth 403B portfolio.

• Utilize Resources: Directs Rhonda to 403B Wise for comprehensive guidance on managing 403B accounts effectively.

"You do it gradually so you don't kill yourself with tax bills over time... moving money from traditional to Roth." (28:46)

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Conclusion

Clark Howard wraps up the episode by reiterating his mission to help listeners take control of their finances. He emphasizes the importance of informed decision-making, vigilant comparison shopping, and leveraging available resources to avoid financial pitfalls.

"Save more, spend less, and avoid getting ripped off... you make a smart decision for your wallet." (19:30)

Listeners are encouraged to continue subscribing for daily newsletters and to engage with the show by submitting their own questions for future episodes.

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Key Takeaways:

• Explore Alternative Internet Providers: With the rise in traditional service prices, new providers offer more affordable and competitive options.

• Prioritize Investments Over Mortgage Payments: Allocating funds to Roth IRAs can yield better long-term financial growth compared to prepaying a mortgage.

• Be Wary of Velocity Banking: While potentially beneficial in specific scenarios, it carries significant risks that may outweigh the benefits for most individuals.

• Guard Against Junk Fees: Always seek transparency in pricing to ensure you're aware of the total cost before making a purchase.

• Plan Airline Travel Strategically: Understanding and adhering to airline-specific policies can save money and reduce travel-related stress.

• Smart Retirement Planning: Transitioning to Roth accounts should be done thoughtfully to balance tax implications and financial growth.

By addressing these topics, Clark Howard provides listeners with valuable insights and practical advice to enhance their financial well-being.

Transcript

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[Clark Howard]

It's my pleasure to welcome you here to the Clark Howard Show. You know our mission is to serve you with advice and information that empowers you to make better financial decisions in your life. Hope you're subscribed to our daily newsletter. You haven't already checked it out? Go to clark.com newsletter or newsletters. They both work our newsletters. I was reading a story the other day about how much money people spend on newsletters each year and I don't know what they're doing because our newsletter, although it's priceless, is also free. So something that is very pricey and getting much more so is your Internet service at your home. It's crazy. I want to talk to you about what's going on in the Internet space so you stop having your wallet shredded by some cable monster or monopoly local phone company? Yuck. And later, how annoying is it when you purchase something and you see a price comparison shopping on the Internet or from a TV ad or an online ad and you go to buy it and they pull that bait and switch on you. They tell you it's going to be this much and then it turns out to be this much plus 30%, 50%, whatever. Think about concert tickets. They tell you the price is going to be this and by the time you're done the price is almost double. What are you going to do about that? I'm going to tell you the best way for you to actually comparison shop. That's later. But right now we got to talk Internet. The CNET survey found that the average consumer in an apartment or a home is paying just under $200 more right now for Internet per year than you did a year ago. 200 bucks. What's going on here? Here's what's happening. The cable monsters are losing customers. Why? Well, because the prices have gone up so much and now you've got more options. Comcast reported really good profits recently, but also disclosed the number of people buying Internet from them is down. So they're chasing the people that are there with higher prices to make up for the people who've said forget you, I'm out of here. And think about it. A lot of us only had for a long time a choice of only a single provider for Internet. That's over. Because now more and more we have the choice of the local monopoly phone company, the cable company. And in a lot of mid size and large markets you now have independent fiber providers running through neighborhoods putting in direct fiber connections for Internet to your home. These no names are offering Internet at a much better deal. And Google Fiber G Fiber, that really was going to do a big thing all over the country and then basically went quiet with the installs they've done, has now started to roll out Internet more and more places at a substantial discount to what you have to pay to the cable monster or the monopoly local phone company. But wait, there's more. Much more. Because people in rural America who've dealt with flat out lousy Internet now have more and more better choices from wireless carriers, particularly Verizon and T Mobile offering wireless home Internet unless your gamer is going to be just fine fast enough. If you got none of those things, you got Starlink available. You know, I know a family that takes trips every summer and they travel with a portable Starlink unit and they've got ultra high speed, ultra reliable Internet wherever they are traveling. You've got choices like we've not had in forever. So don't be somebody who's just being taken advantage of by the cable monster or the monopoly local phone company. No, you've got options. But wait, there's something else as well. You know what else you got working for you? How about this? When you start doing the shopping, you're going to see they're offering other deals to new customers at a fraction of the cost of what you're paying for. Or you may be buying more speed than you need and you can lower the price a lot. The one thing you can't do is just sit there and take it and get ripped off. It's your money. I want it in your pocket. I don't want it going to the stockholders of Comcast or charter or AT&T or any other local monopoly phone company. I want the money in your pocket. How do I feel about that?

[Co-host]

You're pretty fired up about that one.

[Clark Howard]

How long have I been fired up about it?

[Co-host]

Since I've known you.

[Clark Howard]

Well, then I was really fired up because in a lot of cases we had no choice.

[Co-host]

Right?

[Clark Howard]

Today you may have choice way beyond what you realize that could save you so much money. Oh, and by the way, on the Verizon Wireless and the T mobile home, although I talked about it just for people in rural areas, a lot of people in urban and suburban areas have that as an option. That would be a whole lot cheaper for Internet service.

[Co-host]

All right, we'll go to questions. Jeff in Nebraska wrote this one. My wife and I just relocated back to Nebraska for family reasons. I'm 57. My wife turned 60 in August and we have 1.6 million in investments between IRAS and Roth IRAS.

[Clark Howard]

Congratulations to both of you for over the course of your working lifetime doing such a good job, saving money.

[Co-host]

Most of the balance is in IRAs, approximately 1.3 million. My question is, we purchased a home, we moved back and have a 15 year fixed mortgage of $150,000, currently at 4 1/4% and it will increase up to 5.75% in 1 1/2 years. We've currently paused our investment contributions and have been putting the amount we invest towards the mortgage an extra $2,000 towards principal each month. Am I making the right decision? My wife will work another three years and I plan on another three to five years. Our current combined income is $160,000 a year.

[Clark Howard]

Okay, so Jeff, the big variable I would say I would not continue doing, I would not pay at 4.75%. You've got for the next year and a half. I think you could likely see a superior return putting money into Roth IRAs. Right now. I think that would be a better choice. You got the clock ticking. 18 months from now you're going to have that mortgage step up to 5.75%. That's okay. You're still below market and we don't know what refinance opportunities might be in a year and a half and you'll still be working then, so you can't eat your house. So working to pay down $150,000 balance, which is not an enormous amount versus the amount you've already invested in your future. I'd rather you spend this time moving forward putting that money into Roth IRAs for each of you instead of prepaying on the mortgage, make sure you're maxing out the Roths each year, and then if you have any leftover that you can still put towards the mortgage balance, go ahead. But I'd say the higher priority for the long term is beefing up that Roth.

[Co-host]

Ira Drew in Alabama says, I'm seriously considering putting a new motor on my dad's fishing boat. The boat is currently in his name. We've talked about splitting the boat. Since I'd be spending 15 to 20k on the boat, I think it would be worth about $5,000 as it is, and probably about 20 to 25,000 after. The question is, how should we go about that? Retitle in both of our names also, what would be the best way to insure it? Both our names on the insurance or just keep it under one? He seems a little reluctant to retitle and says it would be treated as both of ours. I don't think he would do anything nefarious, but I worry about something happening to him or me and worry about legal issues in line of succession.

[Clark Howard]

So, Drew, you're 100% right in this case, and your dad needs to rethink this. It's really easy to retitle the boat and it's not expensive. I don't know what the filing fees would be in Alabama, but I'm sure they're not a lot. When you're going to put this kind of money into this thing, and then you would have no rights to it at a later date. Bad idea. It's not a big deal to have both of your names on the boat insurance policy. It's really easy to retitle and just offer to buy your dad lunch after you both go to the title office.

[Co-host]

Okay, and this one's from Kimberly in Virginia. What do you think of velocity banking? There have been so many YouTube videos about this process of paying off debt, and so many young people seem to be trying to use this method of getting debt free. What are your thoughts?

[Clark Howard]

Okay, so this is one that we've had different names for going back 20 years. And the pitch is what you do is you have a line of credit, and usually it's designed to be a home equity line of credit. They'll even tell you to pay off your mortgage with the line of credit. And then every paycheck you get goes into this account that operates kind of like a checking account. So every day you get paid, you're reducing the balance on the line of credit, which is a floating interest rate, by the way. So the business models they show and the videos you see online on social media and all that show you're going to magically be out of debt and a fraction of the time as you would otherwise. Okay, first things first. Paying off a mortgage with a floating rate home equity line of credit is normally a bad idea. You're taking a fixed rate and you're turning it into a variable rate with the largest asset that you owe debt on it. Don't like that. Second, it presupposes in all the modeling they talk about on social media and with videos is that you're going to pay off your home in a tiny fraction of the time that you would otherwise. On the credit card side, there's some real validity to taking a credit card that may be running an interest rate of 25%. And with a home equity line of credit, it may be an interest rate of, effectively right now, 7 to 8%. And if you stick to paying it off, then you're going to pay the credit card debt off in a much quicker time. That also supposes that you divorce yourself from using credit cards because if you keep charging on credit cards and develop new balances on them, you've got nowhere. But the big thing is, yes, you are lowering the effective interest rate a great deal on the credit cards, but you now have taken debt against your home. So that is why this is not the slam dunk you see on social media propaganda videos and sites touting the whole idea of taking debt and making it all variable against your home. You're playing a bit with fire. Don't buy in to the one sided sales pitch about this being the most wonderful thing you could ever do. In rare situations where people change their lifestyle and understand all the risks associated with it, it can work out for you. But that's a lot of ifs, ands and buts involved in terms of it actually working out in the overriding number of situations is Pitchfork. It is not a free lunch. Speaking as something has not been a free lunch, when you go to buy something and the price you think is not the price you pay. We're going to talk about that straight ahead.

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[Clark Howard]

There used to be a pretty strictly enforced federal rule about something referred to as bait and switch. The idea of bait and switch that's not enforced anymore is that a business can't bait you with a price. Whatever it is. And then when you go to pay switch, you to a higher price. Today, bait and switch is so common, we call them junk fees now. And it's all about disclosure. And it drives me bonkers that when you go to shop for something, an airline, flight, sports ticket, entertainment ticket, hotel room, I mean, you name it, so many things, day after day after day, we shop for the price turns out not to be the price. You know, I was just talking at the top of the podcast about Internet prices. It was really funny because There was a TV ad I saw that showed an Internet service for 30amonth. So like a fish with a hook in the mouth reeling me in, I go and I shop that $30 a month. What did it turn out to be? 48amonth once all the junk fees were added in. I mean, come on, come on. That's more than 50% extra in junk fees. And you see it with concerts so badly, where you'll look for tickets for a concert and it'll say the price is so and so. But I gotta tell you, my favorite, okay, the Live Nation people that control so many venues and many times they're parking will sell parking for an event, and the parking price will be listed as whatever. But when you go to buy it, the junk fees make the parking potentially twice as much. This is just wrong, right? It's wrong. Fortunately, more and more sites allow you to click a button that'll show you the total price, including junk fees. And by the way, that's my thing, you know, if a hotel wants to invent a fee for a fee on top of a fee, the fee for collecting the fee, and on like that they want to do that, that's fine as long as they tell me the actual real price of the room when I'm comparison shopping. And so if you go to some of the hotel sites now, they don't automatically display it, but you can click a button, it'll show you including all fees and taxes. That's the right way to comparison shop and to not do that, not make that available. Think about with the Internet junk, you go on the website and you shop for a plan and you say, okay, that's the plan I want. Then you put in your address, they have the thing with the appointment, all that, and only then do they show you the real price per month. That is wrong, wrong, wrong. And so don't let people take advantage of you. And a lot of times it's in our own head that we want to think we're paying less than we really are. We play a game on ourselves. Don't do that before you commit to purchase. And as you comparison shop, you want to know what you're actually really going to pay. So you make a smart decision for your wallet.

[Co-host]

All right.

[Clark Howard]

You think of the largest junk fee you've seen lately on something.

[Co-host]

Oh, gosh, it was definitely tickets to a show. And I couldn't believe it was like a resale site, one of the big resale sites. And man, it was insane. I didn't buy them because of it. I was like, this is crazy.

[Clark Howard]

Okay, so like double the price with this.

[Co-host]

It was like 40, 30 to 40% more, I think. Yeah. Okay. Mike in Georgia says, what is your recommendation for a carry on that is allowed in Europe? My US Carry on recently cost me big money in Europe.

[Clark Howard]

Oh boy, Mike, this is, this is a stinker. Okay, so the European carry on dimensions are different. And airlines see you as when you walk up as an American, they're like, boy, this is going to be a good day for us and we don't care. It's going to be a bad day for you. So first of all, most carry ons in the United States 22 inches high. The European limit is roughly converted from centimeters is 21.7 inches. Believe it or not, there are airlines that will clobber you for you being 0.3 of an inch too tall on the carry on. How about that? So now there are a number of luggage sites that tell you European carry on ready and usually they'll list the the height as 20 inches, even though 21.7, you got the wheels to account for and all that. The other thing with the European rules is the width of the bag has to be smaller. I'm trying to remember what that width is because it is smaller. Okay, so US width is usually 9 inches. Europe at 7.8 inches. So they can get you for that. But wait, there's more fun. Some airlines in Europe don't follow the European standard and they enforce a smaller one. So when my wife and I were flying on Ryanair, we prepared for it and we just paid up front when we bought our tickets to check a carry on bag. I know it's completely against my rules to ever check a bag, but it was so much cheaper than being hit with an a hundred euro charge at the airport for that bag. I think it cost us around €20 to prepay for the bag and send it as a check bag. Which was funny because they charge more for a carry on of regulation size at Ryanair than they did for the year their regulation than it was to check a bigger bag.

[Co-host]

So do you have any suggestions for what bag or where? Where would you shop if you were going to buy a European size bag?

[Clark Howard]

So you can't the is you got the gotcha. I mean the largest airline in Europe, one of the largest in the world now is Ryanair and they don't follow the standard. So you got to check the rules before you go for the airline you're flying. If you're flying an airline that follows the European standard. Not hard to buy one of those. Amazon sells.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Clark Howard]

A massive amount of European standard carry on bags because Amazon's so big in Europe as well and you can buy them at the Amazon us.

[Co-host]

What's the last place you bought a piece of luggage?

[Clark Howard]

Oh, Costco I bought there. The one they're selling is not a Kirkland signature, but it's one that's been a great carry on because my Sam's club members mark bag split. Oh yeah. It actually, it actually broke.

[Co-host]

Wow.

[Clark Howard]

And it's got a big slit in it. It's guaranteed for life. So all I got to do, I got to get online with Sam's Club and get whatever they're going to do, a new one or a credit. But I guess I haven't pulled it out from under the bed and done the thing with Sam's because this Costco one we posted on Clark deals a while back is so good. I bought it when it was 69 at Costco on special.

[Co-host]

Now it's 89 but it's not European sized. Right. But they could have some on their website maybe.

[Clark Howard]

Maybe check out the Costco doesn't sell any European size. But I promise you Amazon, Scott, they got a lot that you can buy. That's the European size regulation.

[Co-host]

All right, Martha and Oregon, this question is kind of like one you took recently. But. But there's definitely a difference. So I'm gonna read it. We're planning on taking our family to Hawaii in June of 2026 for our 40th wedding anniversary congr.

[Clark Howard]

Congratulations.

[Co-host]

So nice. Congratulations.

[Clark Howard]

That's really great.

[Co-host]

I'm planning on using our Alaskan Airlines miles. We live in Portland, Oregon to get free tickets to Kauai for the two of us. When is the best time to use the miles for tickets? As soon as the dates open with the airline website. I would believe that would be July of this year, 11 months out or watch for a couple of months to get the best deal on the number of miles needed. Does that change very often also this is what's different. We would like to treat ourselves to first class if possible. Is it better to get coach tickets with miles than upgrade with money to get first class, if that's possible. Or buy tickets with money, then use miles to upgrade. I checked. And to get first class with miles was250,000 miles per person. What? We don't have that many. Also, it seems crazy. Doesn't that equate to $2500?

[Clark Howard]

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That's a lot of money. From Portland to Kauai, right?

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Clark Howard]

A six hour flight. Oh, man. Okay. All right, so here's how I would handle it. I would. When bookings open up in July, I would book in coach using points because Alaska, as I recall, they're not going to charge you a fee if you later redeposit, change the booking, whatever, and just keep watching. And from time to time there'll be sales even on Alaska in the front of the plane. And when a deal comes along, you just rebook in first class on Alaska. But that's just way too many points to have to use for a six hour flight. And it's not a lie. Flat bet on Alaska. Unless they're using some of the old Hawaiian Airlines planes, it's going to be a regular domestic first class seat. It isn't worth that much money, I can assure you. So July of this year, book seats for June of next year in coach. Bide your time, keep checking. I'd set it to where once a month you check and see if the points redemption required for the front of the plane have come down enough that it makes it worth it for you to move to first instead of coach. I'd rather you use the difference in equivalent money you're having to pay to stay in a nicer place in Kauai when you're there. But one other thing. If you do the coach booking, wait on doing the upgrade to first class, even if it means you potentially miss the upgrade to first class. Using money to give it time to see what kind of deals pop up using points in the front of the plane.

[Co-host]

All right. And Rhonda in Texas says I have a traditional 403B. After listening to your podcast, I'll be switching to a Roth 403B. I've been in a traditional for 23 years and it's my understanding that I would have to pay the taxes up front. Is it possible to slowly make the transition so I don't have a huge tax bill? And if the answer is yes, can you give me some guidelines for the transition?

[Clark Howard]

Okay, Rhonda, first of all, you don't have to move any of the prior 23 years money out of the traditional end of the Roth. You can do that and you do it gradually so you don't kill yourself with tax bills over time. It's just going forward. At least start by building up some money in the Roth version of the 403B with the money you have. I don't know how good the 403B is you have. I want you to go to the website just as part of this whole process. And I want you to look at 403B wise.org 403B wise is an advocacy site for people who have 403 BS. 403B wise.org not.com when you go to that website, they teach you what you need to know about 403bs so that your money is going towards your retirement instead of lining some insurance company's pockets or salespeople's pockets. Very important distinction and difference with a typical 403B versus a typical 401K. So you may have an option. Now I'm going to get in the weeds a little bit. You may have the option with your existing 403B to port it out to a much cheaper plan than where you are, which will save you a lot of money over time anyway versus migrating the money from a traditional 403B to a Roth. The expense ratios, the expense costs buried in that 403, very important. As to whether you transition over the years from the traditional to the Roth, that depends. If it's going to pinch your current living standards lifestyle, you can afford to gradually move money by paying the tax from the traditional to the Roth. Great. But not at the cost of your life that you're living every day. Working for a non profit in a 403B, working as a teacher, whatever it is, you tend to make a lower than average income in the United States. So your tax rate would be very low percent tax rate. And that's why in dribs and drabs year by year, moving money would be an efficient thing for you to do. Moving it from traditional to Roth. Not all at once, a gradual thing. And I want to thank you, Rhonda, everyone else for the questions you submit. You the listener, you the viewer of our YouTube show. Thanks for joining us. And I hope that today you learned something that will be useful to you. Your own life. Maybe I gave you a kick in the pants to do something for your wallet you haven't been doing. The whole purpose of what we're about is you taking more control of the financial side of your life so that you save more, spend less, and avoid getting ripped off. And I hope you tune in on Friday for our latest edition of Clark Stinks.