09-22-25 Investing With Robinhood / Price Concessions At The Movies

Summary

The Clark Howard Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: 09-22-25 – Investing With Robinhood / Price Concessions At The Movies
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Clark Howard
Cohost: Krista

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Overview

This episode of The Clark Howard Podcast dives into two main themes: the evolution of Robinhood as a broker, especially in relation to its new Gold membership and Roth IRA incentives for young investors, and the current state of movie theater pricing—how operators are trying to lure back audiences with new pricing models. Alongside these topics, Clark and Krista address listener questions on topics ranging from college savings plans to selling cars safely, tree disputes with neighbors, balancing mortgages with retirement, ongoing issues at Vanguard, and convoluted doctor billing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Robinhood and Investing Habits

[00:49 – 06:43]

• Robinhood's Impact on Brokering:

  • Robinhood revolutionized the industry by bringing free stock trading to the masses, forcing other discount brokers to follow suit.
  • “We owe Robinhood for free stock trading. I mean they're the ones that made that a mainstream thing...” – Clark [01:18]

• A Maturity Shift in Robinhood’s Business:

  • Robinhood is transitioning from catering to rapid, young traders toward fostering long-term relationships, particularly through Robinhood Gold.
  • Robinhood Gold: $50/year (subject to change).
    • Includes notable benefits like a high-yield (4%+) savings account and special Roth IRA incentives.
    • “If you establish a Roth IRA with them ... they have a match for Gold members that more than covers the annual fee...” – Clark [02:19]

• Roth IRAs and Financial Habit Formation:

  • Clark lauds Robinhood’s effort to get young investors into Roth IRAs with “habit-forming” incentives.
  • The match has conditions—you must keep the Roth open for a specified time, promoting long-term thinking.
  • “The incentives are aligned just right to create important habits.” – Clark [03:34]

• Clark’s Journey With Robinhood:

  • Clark describes his feelings shifting from excitement to disappointment (due to Robinhood’s checkered recent history) and back to cautious optimism.

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2. Listener Q&A: Personal Financial Quandaries

[06:43 – 27:44]

A. UTMA versus 529 for College Savings

[06:43 – 09:58]

• Question: Steve from CA realizes he’s set up UTMA accounts, not 529s, for his daughters’ college savings.
• Clark’s Explanation:
  • UTMAs/UGMAs are custodial accounts for kids; 529s are state-sponsored plans with superior tax benefits.
  • “529s are a vastly superior choice because the money grows tax free, is spent tax free.” – Clark [07:36]
  • For a 7-year-old, it may make sense to liquidate the UTMA (pay taxes) and move funds into a 529, especially if family is college-oriented.
  • Only consider direct-sold 529 plans (avoid high fees and commissions).

B. Safest Way to Sell a Used Car

[09:58 – 11:34]

• Question: Will in IN asks about eBay’s “secure purchase” for vehicle sales.
• Clark’s Advice:
  • The eBay program is a trustworthy way to sell vehicles if all business is conducted through their platform.
  • Beware of scams if a buyer requests to transact outside eBay.
  • “Cashier’s checks can be so easily counterfeited.” – Clark [10:31]

C. Tree Dispute with Neighbor—Prevention vs. Aftermath

[11:34 – 16:04]

• Question: Michael in GA wants to know if he can pay to remove a neighbor’s dead tree before it becomes a hazard.
• Clark’s Advice:
  • You can’t enter a neighbor’s property and cut their tree—legal remedies are after-the-fact only.
  • “That’s why you have to document.” – Clark [12:21]
  • First, communicate directly, not through formal/legal channels.
  • Memorable Anecdote: Clark shares a story about a house builder illegally clear-cutting trees, resulting in years of legal trouble and a ruined property.
    • “They clear cutted the lot, which is against the law ... there’s still no house there.” – Clark [15:04]

D. Movie Theater Pricing & Experience

[18:02 – 23:31]

• Clark’s Last Theater Visit:
  • Last attended a movie in 2013 (!).
  • “Last time I was in a movie theater. And what do you think the Bermuda Triangle is for me in a movie theater?” – Clark [18:40]
  • “It’s gotta be the snack bar.” – Krista [18:48]
• Concession Stand Pricing:
  • Prices at movie theaters are infamously high due to the business model—most ticket sales go to studios, so theaters profit mainly from concessions.
  • “You buy the ticket and the ticket is what gives you permission to get ripped off on any food and beverage or snacks...” – Clark [19:14]
  • Modern theaters attempt “enhanced experiences” (with table service, liquor, etc.) or “off-peak pricing” to bring people back.
• Clark’s Personal Approach:
  • He refuses to buy concessions—buys discount tickets and brings snacks for his kids from a convenience store.
  • Funny Story: His daughter once started eating a stranger’s popcorn at a football game, leading Clark to sheepishly compensate the fan.
    • “All of a sudden the person next to her says, hey, your daughter's eating our food.” – Clark [23:00]

E. Paying Off Mortgage vs. Retirement Savings

[23:50 – 25:59]

• Question: Neva in NC asks about balancing extra mortgage payments versus retirement saving at 6.5% interest.
• Clark’s Advice:
  • For those with a pension (like police officers), split surplus: half to Roth IRAs, half to mortgage prepayment.
  • Mortgage prepayments at 6.5% are a “guaranteed” return, tough to beat given recent market inflation.

F. Advisor Turnover at Vanguard

[25:59 – 27:14]

• Question: Sarah in VA notes a rapid turnover of advisors at Vanguard.
• Clark’s Response:
  • Not aware of widespread issues but will investigate and report if there’s a systemic problem.
  • “If there is a problem ... I will definitely do it as a topic...” – Clark [26:36]

G. Doctor Billing—Unexpected Supplemental Bills

[27:14 – end]

• Question: Gail in IN gets a supplemental bill for a dermatologist visit months after paying with her HSA card.
• Clark’s Explanation:
  • The complexity of US health insurance leads to initial bills being “estimates.”
  • Supplemental billing is not the provider scamming you, but insurers not paying as initially calculated.
  • “It’s not the medicine itself, it’s the billing that’s all messed up.” – Clark [28:41]
  • Occasionally, overpayments are even refunded (though rare).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “The big one that I love is getting people when they're young, in the habit of putting money in a Roth IRA.”
  —Clark Howard [02:54]

• “The incentives are aligned just right to create important habits.”
  —Clark Howard [03:34]

• “I bought nothing [at the concession stand]. I was their worst nightmare.”
  —Clark Howard [21:41]

• “All of a sudden the person next to her says, ‘Hey, your daughter's eating our food.’”
  —Clark Howard [23:00] (Story about his daughter at a football game)

• “You still need to have money available to you independent of that pension...”
  —Clark Howard [24:45]

• “It’s not the medicine itself, it’s the billing that’s all messed up.”
  —Clark Howard [28:41]

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Key Takeaways

• Robinhood’s strategy shift to long-term relationships, via Roth IRA incentives and the Gold plan, is a consumer-friendly move if used wisely.
• UTMAs and 529s serve similar goals (college savings) but have dramatically different tax and financial aid impacts—529s are generally superior, especially when direct-sold.
• Transactional safety (like with eBay Motors) is best preserved by keeping all communication and payment through the platform.
• Personal finance decisions (e.g. mortgage prepayment vs. saving for retirement) must consider factors like pensions, interest rates, and personal risk tolerance.
• Health insurance billing remains confusing; expect adjustments and new bills—stay patient but verify amounts.
• Movie theaters’ business models are under strain; look for off-peak pricing or enhanced experiences, but understand most theaters still rely on expensive concessions for profit.

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For more money-saving tips and consumer advice, visit Clark.com and ClarkDeals.com.

Transcript

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[Clark Howard]

I'm so glad you've taken time out of your day to join us on the Clark Howard Show. You know, our mission is to serve you with advice and information that empowers you so you make better financial decisions in your life. Today I' follow up on a promise I made very early in the summer. I was going to talk about the new Robin Hood experience. So, well, eventually I made it the very beginning of fall to talk about it. And later in this episode, the weather gets. Well, we move into fall, people start thinking more about indoor activities. Question for you. When's the last time you saw a movie in a movie theater? I don't even remember what year it was. I want to talk about how the movie operators are trying desperately to get you back in to try the experience. So Robin Hood, when Robin Hood first came along, I was really excited about it. You know, we owe Robin Hood for free stock trading. I mean they're the ones that made that a mainstream thing of doing business with discount brokers, old discount broker business. We owe that to Chuck Schwab and Schwab, which did something unprecedented decades ago when Wall street was basically a cartel of ultra high prices only for rich people. And Chuck Schwab came along and developed Schwab and created much more affordable stock trading. There's still a lot of money at that time. Then it got cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. But free. We owe to Robinhood. But Robinhood has had a bit of a troubled history and now seems to be growing up more and more is now looking at building real relationships with investors instead of just being fly by night and out kind of thing. And they forced the other discounters to go free on stock trading. Well now Robinhood, having established a beachhead with very young investors, rapid trading investors, is now looking at trying to get people into a relationship with them, that's led to Robinhood Gold. And they've done two things in particular. The Robinhood gold that I really like, it's 50 bucks a year, although that could change over time. What do you get with that? Well, they got a carrot there that if you establish a Roth IRA with them, or I guess you could do a traditional. But who would do that? Anyway, you establish a Roth ira, they have a match for gold members that more than covers the annual fee of the gold. And then you got a. For people that are doing a lot of trading of different things, you get a lot of benefits being gold, but it only really pays off if you're a saver because you. You get a 4 or 4% on your savings. And the big one that I love is getting people when they're young, in the habit of putting money in a Roth ira. I mean, I am the man from Roth. Actually, it was the late Senator William Roth of Delaware that's named after. But I love the Roth IRA because it's just such a deal to be able to put money in, invest it through the years, have it grow tax free, and be able to spend it tax free. It is awesome. And so now we've got all the cousins of Roth IRAs. The Roth 401K, the Roth simple, the self employed Roth 401K, or it's actually named different things. Some places call it the Solo Roth 401K. These things are such great financial tools. And I love that Robinhood used the lure of doing for individuals, kind of like their version of an employer match that throws some little extra money at you for your Roth IRA to get you in the habit of doing the Roth ira. And where Robinhood has always been about people popping in, popping out, popping in, popping out, there's a handcuff with it. You got to keep that Roth IRA going for a while or you forfeit the money that they gave you as a challenge match. So the incentives are aligned just right to create important habits. I talked in the past about my son who has a Robinhood account who thinks holding something for a long term is a week. Long term is years and years and years and building a habit, paycheck by paycheck, month by month. So Robin Hood, to its credit, don't hear the complaints about them like I used to. And the gold is their way of creating stronger relationships with customers. And if you use it right, it's worth the money. So Robinhood has gone from being something I was ecstatic about to something I was frowning about to Something I'm happy about now and you can be comfortable using it until they prove me wrong.

[Krista]

Krista okay, we'll go to questions now. Steve in California says I've been funding UTMA accounts with Fidelity for my daughters for several years. I always heard Clark talk about the benefits of 529 plans and I mistakenly assumed that the UTMA accounts I set up were the same thing.

[Clark Howard]

And I should explain what an UTMA or an UGMA are. They are accounts that a parent can establish for a kid. Transfer to Minors Act, Gift to Minors act that allows a parent to control the account but have money for benefit of a child.

[Krista]

After hearing another segment where Clark praised 529s, I double checked and realized that what I actually have are utmas. Can you explain the difference between the two? And given that one of my daughters is 16 and the other is 7, is there anything I should be doing differently at this point?

[Clark Howard]

So if you're 16 year old you already have the UTMA pretty close to college age and one of the key questions is education. After high school that's going to be a likely course of action, particularly if it's college because college is so expensive. 529s are a vastly superior choice because the money grows tax free, is spent tax free. 16 year olds awfully close to college, don't know what kind of gain over the years the utma's had. I mean you can liquidate the utmas and pay tax on them and then put the money into 529s which would really help your kids if they might otherwise be eligible for financial aid because the utmas hurt them for financial aid, but especially for the 7 year old who hasn't had enough time for the account to have probably a lot of embedded gains it would be. If your family culture is college oriented, it'd be a good idea to pay the tax on the UTMA. Then move the 7 year old's money into the age based portfolio or expected entrance date. They call them different things available in the 529 account. Now 529 accounts are not all created equal. Some of them are really terrible. They're sold by commission based salespeople. The only good 529s are what are known as direct sold. No salespeople. The plans are simple enough. You don't need a salesperson to buy one or fund it or to even pick investments because you just go in the age based portfolio. If you go to clark.com we've got updated reviews on the various 529 plans around the country. If your state plan is on one of our good lists, just go straight into it with that UTMA money and I Again, the embedded gain in the UTMA would help you make the decision, particularly if your 16 year old is going to go to college, whether it's a good idea for you to liquidate the UTMA and put the money in the 529. If you've got a lot of embedded gains, you probably may not want to deal with all those taxes now on the 16 year old's account.

[Krista]

Will in Indiana says ebay recently introduced their secure purchase program for vehicles. I'm primarily interested in it because I have a used vehicle to sell. They say purchases are secure with the involvement of their recently acquired Caramel dealer services. Does this appear to be a safe way of selling a vehicle? I'm mostly concerned with their secure payment method and as it would appear to avoid the problems with fake cashier's checks and such. Also, in general, what are the safest ways to take payment for a used vehicle? I've taken cash or cashier's checks in the past.

[Clark Howard]

Yeah, cash is fine. Cashier's checks can be so easily counterfeited. The new ebay secure purchase program really provides a secure environment, like they say, for buyers and sellers. As long as you do everything in the program. If you have a buyer who towards the end says or seller says, oh, you know it'll save us money if you pay outside of the platform, don't do it. That's setting you up for a scam. So what ebay has done increased a lot of buyer protections and seller protections and eliminated a lot of loss of market share by ebay Motors, which used to be such a big player in the buying and selling of used vehicles. So I'm really glad they did this because of the fears that are real people have had of being defrauded on either side of the sale or purchase of a used vehicle.

[Krista]

Michael in Georgia says, I've just read the article on clark.com about a neighbor's dead tree. Everything there is about documenting to be able to claim their insurance after the tree falls on your house. Is there a way for you to pay for the tree service and charge the neighbor? The fact that you will or will not be able to claim it to the neighbor's insurance is nice, but I'd rather prevent the disaster in the first place. Wouldn't home insurance save a lot of money by paying for cutting a tree versus paying a house for a rebuild? No, for A house rebuild.

[Clark Howard]

No kidding. But not even that. What about the danger to life and limb to you if a tree falls on your house while you're home? And if it's big enough when it could kill you? So that's why you need to be proactive with your neighbor. On the other hand, you cannot trespass on a neighbor's property and cut down their tree. You just can't. So this is why the whole diseased and dead tree thing has been such a problem for such a long period of time, because the law does not recognize remedies up front, only recognizes remedies after the fact. And that's why you have to document. And having a good relationship with a neighbor where you actually know each other and you can talk about things is really helpful. The first thing your neighbor should not see from you is a certified letter or a nasty gram letter left for them. You go and you knock on their door and you introduce yourself. If you've never met them, you talk about the situation. Ask them, hey, you know, I don't know if you've noticed, but there's this tree that could fall. It's dead or dying could fall on your house or my house. And I just wanted to make you aware of it. You talk to them. But so often today, we don't know who surrounds us. And our first thing is fighting words, which is what a certified letter is. That's. That's a step that comes later if you're ignored. And it does come very early if it's an absentee landlord, if there are renters in the place. That's when, unfortunately, your whole process starts, potentially with a certified letter. But, yeah, it's really always a good practice just to know your neighbors for sure, for so many reasons.

[Krista]

And maybe they can, you know, maybe they disagree that the tree's dead, but they could have a tree company come out and take a look.

[Clark Howard]

Well, the tree company's always.

[Krista]

Not always, because if they have to pull a permit, you know. Oh, that's the thing. If they have to pull a permit to come cut it down, then, you know, they have to make sure it's dead, it's dying. Isn't that true? Am I wrong?

[Clark Howard]

Well, they're supposed to.

[Krista]

I know.

[Clark Howard]

Yeah. Oh, could I tell a story about.

[Krista]

Tell it.

[Clark Howard]

Tell it.

[Krista]

Yeah. Why wouldn't you? You can't do that. That's a terrible thing to do.

[Clark Howard]

So I'm jogging one day. I'm in a neighborhood and I'm passing by where someone's torn down a house. Somebody bought a piece of property, torn down a house. They were going to build a new house. Well, one day I'm jogging by there and there's four trucks from a tree removal company and they got the big chipper to cut up the trees and they clear cutted the lot, which is against the law, and did it with no permit.

[Krista]

Oh wow.

[Clark Howard]

So that's been six years. There's still no house there.

[Krista]

Oh my gosh.

[Clark Howard]

Because it led to such a big brouhaha with the county and the fines and the court dates and all that. And this was a beautiful tree shaded lot that now looks like scarred earth that's overgrown six years later. And the person who wanted to build their dream home, if they would have done it right, they might not have been able to build exactly what they wanted. They permitted. They have lived there for many years now.

[Krista]

Wow.

[Clark Howard]

Yeah. A lot of people are like, well if I pull a permit, they're going to tell me I can't do this and can't do that and can't do the other. So I'm just going to skip that step. Yeah. Doesn't always work out, does it? Coming up ahead, you know, it's not working out owning a movie theater. We're going to talk about that.

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[Schwab Announcer]

We all have moments when we could have done better. Like cutting your own hair.

[Krista]

Yikes.

[Schwab Announcer]

Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato.

[Krista]

Ouch.

[Clark Howard]

Could have done better.

[Schwab Announcer]

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[Clark Howard]

When you need it.

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Learn [e-mail].

[Clark Howard]

Okay, I was trying to think back the last time I was in a movie theater. And it was way, way long ago in the wayback machine. And Christie, you got to find the year for me.

[Krista]

Okay?

[Clark Howard]

I took my son, who's now 20, to see the second Minions movie, and we went to a traditional movie theater. Last time I've been in one was then.

[Krista]

Wow. So I'm looking despicable. Me too. 2013.

[Clark Howard]

2013.

[Krista]

Despicable Me was 2010. The original.

[Clark Howard]

So 12 years ago.

[Krista]

Wow.

[Clark Howard]

Last time I was in a movie theater. And what do you think the Bermuda Triangle is for me in a movie theater?

[Krista]

Oh, I mean, obviously it's gotta be the snack bar.

[Clark Howard]

Yeah. I mean, man, it's just nuts.

[Krista]

And why can't you get a small anything there? A small is a giant. Like if you go to any convenience store, like your giant Big Gulp sodas or whatever, a small soda in a movie theater is like you have to two hand that thing. Isn't that crazy?

[Clark Howard]

That is nuts. Right.

[Krista]

And of course it costs, you know, a million dollars.

[Clark Howard]

Right, Right. And so it's all about the business model of the movie studios. You know, when a movie first opens, the theater operator gets like none of the money. It all goes back to whatever Hollywood studio did it. So it came up with this crazy business model where you buy the ticket and the ticket is what gives you permission to get ripped off on any food and beverage or snacks or anything you buy inside. It's just a bizarre model to think about.

[Krista]

And then craving popcorn now, like mouth watering from popcorn. I just thought about it. Their popcorn is so good. Really, don't you think?

[Clark Howard]

I don't know. It's been 12 years. I don't even remember. But all right, so think about this. So you got that got to pay all this money to get in so you can then get ripped off once you're in. And the whole thing is the experience having that giant screen. What do people have now in their homes? They have these fantastic high def televisions. How do you compete? Well, amc, which is the world's largest movie theater chain, has decided to do off peak pricing for people who join their club on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. And pricing is a signal that helps. It does help, but it's going to require a complete rethink because you can do an enhanced experience which in any mid size or large market. Now you have these really fancy theaters with table service and they may have a liquor license. And they made it more like a live performance venue kind of thing. And it's a real night out. And by the way, there's a movie that's on. And we did have long ago, we had, remember pre inflation and when people still went to movies big time, we had the $1 theaters. That's why I used to go to the movies when I could go to the $1 theater. But I mean it is a industry that the whole price signal what happens once you're inside, that's what's got to be fixed. Now what do I buy? Well, when I used to go, what did I buy inside the theater?

[Krista]

Crickets.

[Clark Howard]

That's right. I bought nothing. I bought nothing. I was their worst nightmare. I would buy a cheap ticket or a $1 or back in the old days when the warehouse clubs used to sell these strips of discount tickets for theaters. That's how I would go to the movies. And then I hit that point of price resistance. I bought nothing at the counter.

[Krista]

What about your family?

[Clark Howard]

So here was my deal. Sports events and at the movie theater.

[Krista]

Sports events still in play or like Disney on ice. Whatever. Yeah, when they're kids.

[Clark Howard]

So the kids knew they got to go to my favorite convenience store chain before or after and get whatever they wanted. But they couldn't order anything at a sports event or at a movie. Now long, long ago, I took my oldest child who's now, this will tell you how long ago this was. She's 36 now. So I took Rebecca to a football game and she knew the rules. She couldn't get anything to eat there. And all of a sudden the person next to her says, hey, your daughter's eating our food.

[Krista]

Oh God.

[Clark Howard]

Rebecca was seeing her hand and this guy's popcorn. So I had to give him the money to replace his popcorn. Oh man, can you imagine? I need to mention that to Rebecca because I'm sure she was young enough. She has no memory of learning to be a thief because her dad was too cheap to buy her anything at a football stadium.

[Krista]

That's hilarious. All Right. You ready for questions?

[Clark Howard]

You never heard that story?

[Krista]

No, no.

[Clark Howard]

It's what happened.

[Krista]

I believe it. I thought you were gonna say like she passed out from hunger or something, like she fainted.

[Clark Howard]

No, but she had your same fixation on popcorn.

[Krista]

I don't know what they. I'm sure some kind of poison is in that stuff that makes it taste really good. Okay. Neva in North Carolina says, how do you recommend young homeowners balance paying off a mortgage early versus retirement saving at 6.5% interest? Any extra repay toward principal each month would make a big dent in the overall cost of the loan. Do you recommend people contribute a certain percentage of income to retirement accounts prior to paying extra on a mortgage? Also, would that percentage be different for pension eligible workers like my husband, a police officer?

[Clark Howard]

Well, first of all, thank him for putting his life on the line to keep your community safe. Tough job. That's just one of the public safety jobs that people risk their life and limb for us, that I'm grateful for. So the pension, the pension does reduce the extreme need to put aside a lot of money for retirement, but you still need to have money because you never know how that pension is going to play out over time, if it'll be terminated at some point, whatever, as local governments face budget squeezes. So 6.5% is a strong argument to prepaying on a mortgage. So I'm going to split the baby here and I'm going to recommend where I would not. If you had not said the whole thing with the pension. I'm going to recommend that whatever surplus funds you have, that half of it go into the Roth IRAs and the other half go to prepayment of principal on the mortgage. Because six and a half. With how inflated the stock market has been, six and a half is a hard number for a while to overcome. And you know you're getting a guaranteed six and a half percent return by prepaying on that mortgage. But you still need to have some money available to you independent of that pension that your husband will earn someday?

[Krista]

Sarah in Virginia says, what's going on at Vanguard? I have been with them since 2019 and, and I've been very happy, but since April I've had a turnover of advisors. I just got an email yesterday and my third advisor since April is leaving. It's worrisome.

[Clark Howard]

That's terrible. Terrible. I mean, from spring to fall, you've been through three advisors. I'm not aware if there's buzz in the community. I have a friend who's very who's not with Vanguard but very wired into what's going on there. And I'm going to ask him. And if there is a problem going on at Vanguard in their fiduciary planning service, I will definitely do it as a topic on the podcast and YouTube show. So I don't know if you just got extremely freaky unlucky or if there is something going on that would lead to a dramatic increase in turnover of fiduciary planners at Vanguard. So when I have that answer, if there is a problem that I should know and you should know, we'll let you know on the podcast soon as possible.

[Krista]

Gail in Indiana says, I visited my dermatologist for a skin check. When I received the bill, I paid it in full with my HSA card. What seems like six months later, the practice sends me a new bill. When I called them to say I already paid, I was told they reran my insurance and I needed to pay more. This practice seems advantageous to the provider and out of the blue unfair to the consumer. How do I fight this? Because now the provider will not schedule me for this year's skin check until I fork over more money.

[Clark Howard]

Wow, this is so interesting, Gail, because this is something I addressed recently, alluding to on one of our podcasts. So what doctors are doing, they deal with a lot of different contracts with insurers and a lot of different insurance companies as well. I don't know if it's third party software or what software doctors offices are using, but the back office personnel do what's called run your insurance. They come up with an estimate of what insurance is going to pay, what amount they're going to have to write off in their supposed negotiated rate that the insurer pays for that whatever care was that the dermatologist did. And then it calculates what your share is as a patient. The doctor is not trying to get one over on you. It's about the crazy complexity of how health insurance works in the United States. Nobody else can be proud of a system like we have. That's just loco. We have with health insurance in the U.S. and so the doctor is not mistreating you. What they're doing is they're trying to get as soon as they have some idea the amount that you're responsible for, doctors should say on the bills you receive. This is an estimate that could go up or down later. I have, I know this is weird, but I have rarely but occasionally received a refund check from a doctor's office when they had Ms. Messed up the estimate and they had collected too much from me and then later refunded the difference. I don't know how many doctors offices do that, but you owe them legitimately, you owe them the money. If you look through and you see the reimbursement they received was different than they had originally anticipated, it is the insurance company that's getting over on both you and the doctor. So, yeah, dermatologist. That's interesting because I got a recalculated bill from the dermatologist who did my skin check much earlier this year. So I don't know if there's something specifically a back and forth or it's just a fluke that yours was a dermatologist. And I recently got a small additional balance bill from the dermatologist after what the insurance company paid not being what they expected. We can do better with medicine, I promise. It's not the medicine itself, it's the billing is all messed up. But thank you so much for joining us today. I hope that you have an absolutely wonderful rest of your day and that something today was something that you've stuck in your brain and the time's going to come. You say, oh, I remember I'm supposed to do this or that, whatever. And that's what we're about. We're about helping you be empowered with knowledge so you can save more, spend less and never, never, not ever let anybody rip you off. Have a great.