11.21.24 Shopping Season - Return Policies / Got Credit Card Debt?

Summary

The Clark Howard Podcast: Shopping Season - Return Policies / Got Credit Card Debt?
Released on November 21, 2024

In this episode of The Clark Howard Podcast, host Clark Howard delves into the complexities of holiday shopping, particularly focusing on return policies and the growing issue of credit card debt. Through personal anecdotes, expert advice, and listener interactions, Clark provides listeners with actionable strategies to navigate the financial challenges of the shopping season.

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Navigating Holiday Return Policies

Clark opens the discussion by highlighting the increasingly convoluted return policies that shoppers encounter during the holiday season. He shares a personal story to illustrate the frustrations consumers face:

Clark Howard [00:50]: "I bought a platform for a mattress on Amazon and the package came open with parts missing. Amazon sent a replacement but wouldn't take back the defective item, offering only a credit instead."

This experience underscores a common issue where retailers, to save on the high logistics costs of processing returns, opt to credit customers without requiring the return of defective items. Clark emphasizes the importance of understanding each retailer's specific return policy to avoid unexpected costs and complications.

He further recounts an incident with Sam’s Club, where a significant price drop shortly after purchase led to an unexpected credit without the need to return the original item:

Clark Howard [05:30]: "I got an $85-inch TV for $698. Ten days after purchase, the price dropped, and Sam’s Club credited my account $217.80 without requiring the return of the TV."

Clark advises listeners to monitor their purchases closely during the shopping season. By staying informed about potential price changes, shoppers can leverage credit policies to their advantage, ensuring they get the best deals without incurring additional costs.

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The Rising Tide of Credit Card Debt

Transitioning from return policies, Clark addresses the escalating issue of credit card debt in the United States. He presents a dual narrative of consumer behavior:

1. Reward Seekers: Individuals who use credit cards to earn rewards and can pay off their balances monthly.
2. Borrowers: Those who rely on credit cards as a means to cover essential expenses due to inadequate income, leading to rising debt levels.

Clark Howard [17:00]: "Credit card debt in the country is way at an all-time high, with average interest rates soaring to 25%. If you're part of the segment that's struggling to pay balances and already servicing high-interest debt, it's time to rethink your spending habits."

Clark warns against the pitfalls of accumulating credit card debt, especially during the shopping season when the temptation to buy discounted items can lead to overspending. He underscores the importance of budgeting:

Clark Howard [19:45]: "Have a budget for your Christmas spending. Decide what you can afford to spend and stick to it. Don’t fall for the tractor beam of endless sales that pull you into purchasing items you can’t afford."

For those already grappling with high-interest debt, Clark advises prioritizing debt repayment over additional spending, cautioning that the compounded costs of interest can exacerbate financial strain.

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Listener Questions and Expert Advice

The latter half of the episode features a series of listener questions, providing tailored advice on various financial topics.

1. Managing Unreliable Ride-Sharing Drivers

Jamie from Washington shares a frustrating experience with Uber drivers who seemingly accept trips without intending to complete them, leading to prolonged wait times.

Clark Howard [06:18]: "This has never happened to me on Lyft, but unfortunately, it's a known issue with some Uber drivers. If you encounter this, consider switching to a different ride-sharing service or reporting the behavior to Uber to help improve the platform for everyone."

2. Optimizing Cell Phone Plans

Kathy in California seeks advice on maintaining Verizon discounts amidst changing terms.

Clark critiques the aggressive marketing strategies of major carriers like Verizon and suggests exploring alternative brands owned by these companies:

Clark Howard [11:39]: "Verizon is spending heavily on discount brands like Total Wireless and Visible. Switching to one of these can significantly reduce your monthly costs while still providing reliable service."

He also highlights the benefits of using credit cards with rewards, recommending Kathy consider the Verizon Visa card for its perks:

Clark Howard [12:00]: "The Verizon Visa card offers 4% cash back on groceries and dining with no annual fee, plus a $100 statement credit. If managed responsibly, it can enhance your savings while maintaining your Verizon service."

3. Extending the Life of Electric Rotary Shaver Blades

David from California inquires about maintaining electric shaver blades to prolong their lifespan.

Acknowledging his lack of personal experience, Clark candidly admits:

Clark Howard [12:42]: "I can't answer that because I've never changed the blades on my electric razor."

He encourages listeners to consult manufacturer guidelines and online resources for detailed maintenance tips.

4. Buying a New Mattress

Pam in Florida expresses confusion over mattress shopping and seeking the best time and price to purchase.

Clark provides a comprehensive strategy:

Clark Howard [23:10]: "Consider buying a mattress online where you have ample time to return it if it doesn't meet your expectations. Utilize Consumer Reports to research and narrow down your choices based on sleep preferences and quality ratings."

He points listeners to the latest guides available on clark.com, emphasizing the importance of warranties and return policies when purchasing high-ticket items like mattresses.

5. Credit Freeze with Novus

Linda in Washington asks about freezing her credit with the fourth credit bureau, Novus.

Clark explains the prioritization of the major credit bureaus:

Clark Howard [28:29]: "Focus on freezing your credit with the three main bureaus: Equifax, TransUnion, and Experian. These are the primary ones used in most credit decisions. Freezing with smaller bureaus like Innovis is optional but not essential unless you have specific concerns."

He emphasizes that while additional freezes can offer extra security, the primary bureaus cover the majority of credit activities.

6. Starting a 529 Plan for College Savings

May in California seeks advice on initiating a 529 plan for her high school freshman.

Clark affirms the benefits of starting a 529 plan early:

Clark Howard [30:33]: "Even though your son is already in ninth grade, initiating a 529 plan is advantageous. It allows for tax-free growth and provides flexibility if your son receives scholarships or chooses not to attend college, as the funds can be rolled over into a Roth IRA up to $35,000."

He recommends choosing low-cost, index-based plans to maximize returns and minimize fees, citing both California’s and Arizona’s offerings as solid choices despite California’s lack of state tax benefits.

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Final Thoughts and Resources

As the episode concludes, Clark reiterates the importance of proactive financial management during the holiday season. He encourages listeners to take advantage of free resources available on his websites, such as:

• Clark.com: Comprehensive guides and tools for budgeting, debt management, and consumer advice.
• ClarkDeals.com: A hub for finding the best deals and discounts to maximize savings.

Clark also promotes his free newsletters, which provide daily tips and deals to help consumers save more and spend less.

Clark Howard [31:00]: "Our mission is to help you save more, spend less, and avoid getting ripped off. Check out our free newsletters at clark.com/newsletters to stay informed and make smarter financial decisions all year round."

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Key Takeaways

1. Understand Return Policies: Always review and understand the return policies of retailers before making purchases, especially during the holiday season.
2. Monitor Prices: Keep track of price changes on high-ticket items to take advantage of potential refunds or credits.
3. Manage Credit Wisely: Avoid accumulating credit card debt by budgeting holiday spending and prioritizing debt repayment if necessary.
4. Leverage Resources: Utilize online resources and consumer reports to make informed purchasing decisions.
5. Protect Your Credit: Focus on freezing credit with the major bureaus to safeguard against identity theft.
6. Plan for Education: Starting a 529 plan early can provide significant tax benefits and financial flexibility for future education expenses.

By following Clark Howard’s expert advice, listeners can navigate the challenges of the shopping season with confidence, ensuring their financial well-being remains intact.

Transcript

[A]

This podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[B]

It's my pleasure to welcome you here to the Clark Howard Show. Our mission is to serve you with advice and information that empowers you so you make better financial decisions in your life. A week from today, we'll be sitting down to turkey and dressing and whatever else you like to have for Thanksgiving. And holiday shopping has become a new tradition on Thanksgiving. How about that with the dot coms. But one thing you got to worry about with Christmas shopping, return policies. And I want to tell you a story of something that happened to me, that saved me big money. And I want to talk about returns costing you money as well. And something I don't want you to do this Christmas season is get more into credit card debt. Because credit card debt in the country is way at an all time high and we gotta have a talk before you go for those bargains. So return policies are all over the board right now and I'm hearing every story known to humanity about trying to return things. With some retailers charging you money to return an item, others putting up roadblocks for you to return, others saying, why don't you just keep it? I had a funny Amazon story. I bought a platform for a mattress on Amazon and the package came open and parts missing. So I contact Amazon with an online chat. They were very speedy and sent me a replacement in a couple days. And I said, where do I return the old one to? Well you said it's missing parts, it's yours to keep. We don't want it. I said, well I don't want it. So they said, well we won't take it back but we're crediting you for it. We're sending you a new one, but we won't take it back. So there I am with this bed frame. So my son and I take all the parts out and we figured out only a few parts were missing that could easily be replaced at a hardware store or something like that. So we re box it up and I take it and donate it at Goodwill. So somebody is getting a bed frame that's just going to require a little bit of running around to make it work. Fine. But that's not an unusual story. Forgetting the part that it was missing parts, I talked about this last year at this time that occasionally you're going to have a retailer say they didn't want an item back. You're going to hear that a lot in January from clothing retailers or retailers that you bought clothing from that are general merchandise retailers. If something doesn't fit, let's say you receive a sweater and it's too small, too large, whatever, and you want to return it, they may tell you keep it, keep it. And then I guess you then re gift it. Because retailers are losing so much money on certain types of returns. It's mind blowing. I mean the logistics involved and processing returns is so expensive that it is cheaper for a lot of retailers to just say it's yours. I had a crazy thing I mentioned yesterday. I got this 85 inch TV for $698. So I'm going to give you more detail on that. I bought it at Sam's club@sams club.com for 800, 898 or 899, whatever. And then 10 days after I bought it, it then goes on sale for 698. Well, you know Costco's published policy is that if the price on something drops within 30 days when you buy it, you can just ask for a credit and they give it to you. Well, so I do a message, a chat thing with Sam's and I said, do I understand this right? Cause you can return a TV for 90 days that in order to get back the $200 difference that I have to return the TV that I just got, rebuy it in order to get the lower price. The person doing the chat said give me a minute or whatever. Next thing I know he said we've credited $217 so many cents to your account because they don't want that TV back because they'll have to salvage it at that point. And so even though it's not, and I looked in the terms of service of Sam's club membership, I couldn't find anywhere that they do the 30 day guarantee like Costco does. But effectively they did it by me contacting them. And I got back, it was $217.80. I got back. So the thing I'll tell you is a Costco shopper, and now I can amend that with an asterisk about Sam's Club. You buy an expensive item in those 30 days after you buy it. You should monitor if that item does get cheaper if it goes on sale. Because you may well you will at Costco if you ask for it. And you may well At Sam's club. Get that money back.

[C]

All right, we'll go to questions.

[B]

I sound too cheap.

[C]

Are you kidding me? This is why you have the Clark Howard show.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

You're showing us all how to do it. Jamie in Washington says, I learned something with Uber the other day. I ordered a ride and watched him start driving toward my house. And it said 8 minutes for him to arrive. Then he started taking random turns down random roads. I'm thinking, wow, this guy's super lost. And then it shows. He's 15 minutes from me, and all of a sudden it shows four minutes and a new driver. I told the new driver about how quote unquote lost my other driver got. And he told me some Uber drivers drive around pretending to be lost and take a long time in hopes that you will cancel the ride. And they make a little bit of money from you canceling and they never even have to give a ride.

[B]

So I had, my record was when I was in Florida in August, I used the Uber app to get an Uber and I had four drivers accept the trip and then later go rope a dope on me.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Four different ones. And then finally I got a fifth one who then picked me up and I waited 41 minutes.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

For a 15 minute ride. I mean, so this is a thing on Uber and it also happens on Lyft, that the drivers do the rope a dope. They'll accept a trip before they really look at it and then they'll realize, huh, I'm not going to make enough money from that trip. But then they don't cancel on you. They stall and wait for you to cancel on them, where you might get hit with a fee every time you cancel. And you're looking at me like this has never happened to you.

[C]

It's only. It's funny, it's never happened to me on Lyft. For some reason I've had it happen on Uber, but I've been lucky with. I mostly use Lyft, but yeah, and I also thought that the drivers.

[B]

Is it called pink? Are you the higher status?

[C]

I used to have it for free with my credit card, but they did away with that. So I don't have it anymore. But I thought that they didn't show the drivers where you were going until you got in the car. But I guess they don't. They must show them now.

[B]

So I guess the drivers do know.

[C]

I mean, you would think what that.

[B]

Happened would decide a trip's not worth it.

[C]

Okay. Yeah. Because I guess if you're driving someone Two states away. You need to know that.

[B]

Oh no, I think they like those trips.

[C]

Yeah, they probably would love that. Kathy in California says we are Verizon Wireless users with seven lines and we won't be changing anytime soon because some of us are getting bill credits for free devices bought through them that run for another year or so. We were getting $10 a month per line for allowing auto pay from my checking account. Not something I loved, but worth it for $70 a month. Suddenly it's only $5 a month discount unless I get the Verizon Visa card. But the fine print says we can get the card and re enroll to get the additional $5 per line discount. It has some perks that might be useful, like 4% on groceries and dining and has no annual fee plus a $100 statement credit. After three months we have a credit score over 800, have no outstanding debt and pay off our cards every month and it will get them off of our checking account. Is it worth the trouble of unfreezing our credit and having another card?

[B]

Okay, let's go back to the very beginning.

[C]

I knew you were going to.

[B]

How did you know I was going to?

[C]

Because I know you.

[B]

All right, so this is the game that Verizon AT&T and T mobile play. And I was thinking when I was watching on football, I was watching a Verizon ad where they're taking a hammer to their iPhones but then they can trade it in in any condition and get the new iPhone, whatever. And I was thinking about long, long ago and far, far away, like 20 plus years ago, people used to get a computer for free if they signed a contract for dial up Internet. That may be 30 years ago, I don't know if you remember that, that people were, were all excited to get these free PCs, these desktop computers if they signed up for three years at an inflated price for the dial up. This is the same kind of marketing gimmick is they get you hooked with a deal on the phone that's paid out typically over two more often three years where you get the monthly credits and then they're getting you to look at that while they completely rip you off on the monthly cell phone service. And there will come a time where you just rip off the band aid, you pay the remaining balance on those phones that you have on the payout where they're giving you the monthly credit and you switch those seven lines from Verizon to someone who is less than half the cost per month for service. Verizon itself is spending so much money on advertising for their various discount brands right now that don't come under the Verizon name. Total Wireless, Visible, Straight Talk, all these brands that are owned by Verizon where they're trying to capture people at whatever price per month they're willing to pay. And I can tell you that whatever it is, it's a fraction of the cost of being with name brand Verizon, name brand at&t or name brand T Mobile.

[C]

Kathy's a great candidate for our phone plan [e-mail] phone plan finder. You can put in the seven lines.

[B]

And see how much money you'll save even if you have to absorb those phones. So that means I never answered your question. If you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, Clark, I'm going to stay with Verizon, then yes, to be able to, for nothing else. To get 4% cash back at no annual fee for groceries and dining. That alone would make it worth it. And then on top of it, they pay you 100 bucks bribe to get the card. As long as you use it only for the purposes that get you the bargains, the 4% back, then you've got a real winner there. It's a perfect situation. Player credit card.

[C]

David in California says, how do you lengthen the life of electric rotary shaver blades? You speak about shaving razors and drying them, but what about the electric ones? The instructions from my Norelco say to rinse them and air dry them. Will the rinsing diminish the life of the rotary blades?

[B]

That's a good question. I can't answer because I have never changed the blades on my electric razor.

[C]

And how long?

[B]

Years.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

How long are the blades okay for?

[C]

I don't know, man.

[B]

I don't know. I haven't, I haven't been suffering nicks or cuts or whatever.

[C]

But you, when you did, you, you used to, you would dry your traditional.

[B]

Razor, which I use on any day I'm on camera. Today's the day I'm on camera. So I shave traditional. But any other day I just use the three blade Norelco razor. And if I'm, I know it came with extra blades, I'm sounding like a complete idiot right now because I've never ever thought about this, David. And I've never even looked to see how I changed the blades. Okay, that'll be my assignment.

[C]

Yes. You have homework for sure.

[B]

Figure that out. Shave with the new blades set in my rotary Norelco thingy and see if suddenly I'm getting a better shave because I I guess it deteriorates so slowly I haven't even noticed.

[C]

I bet the Clarkies will write in to us too. I'm sure someone out there has mad knowledge about this because I have no.

[B]

Idea what the answer is to that. Coming up ahead, we're going to talk credit card debt. I do know the answer to that, and I'm not at all happy with the situation we're in right now with credit card debt. And you've got an assignment through the Christmas shopping season from me.

[A]

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[B]

Got talk here whose only four years ago, four years ago that credit card debt in the United states cumulatively was 700 billion, which was actually an improvement. Americans during the first year of COVID heavily paid down credit card balances and it was going in the right direction for like the first time and forever. Then we went in that cycle. There was a dual cycle of revenge spending when people started getting back out again in 21, and the inflationary cycle that led to people that are on really tight budgets running out of money and then using credit cards as a borrowing system to pay for food and necessities. So we got a double story here because we've got a lot of people who use credit cards as just a payment system, earn rewards, whatever, cash back then we have people that are using credit cards as a borrowing vehicle and are trying to survive without enough money coming in each month. So if you're one of the people who just can't get by on what you're earning, this is not for you. This is for people who are using credit cards. Because I see it, I want it. That settles it. And you're running balances on cards, paying now an average interest rate of 25% highest ever for an average rate. That's the latest number I saw. And now here we are in the Christmas shopping season. You compound the problem because everything you're buying is 25% more expensive than you think it is on sale. Because if you're using credit to buy it, it doesn't settle it because you got to pay that back plus all the interest. If you're someone who is in that very large segment of Americans who pays your balance in full every month, it's about more than a third of people now. And you can afford it. And you want to buy this sale item or that one, or you want to book this Black Friday travel deal or whatever it is, go for it. That's fine if you can afford it. But if you are in that muddy middle I'm talking about and you're part of what's led the balances on credit cards to climb and climb and climb to what is an all time record, I think even inflation adjusted all time record, then it's time for you to have a rethink and come up with, okay, I'm going to say a word that a lot of people is a cuss word. Have a budget for your Christmas spending. A budget that's right where you say, okay, this is what I can afford to spend for Christmas and pay for and this is what I'm going to buy. Because with the constant churn of sales, sale, sale, sale, sale, sale in any store you go into, you see the sale signs everywhere pulling you like a tractor beam into that aisle to buy whatever. Or online seeing the sense of urgency with Amazon or Walmart saying this is on sale, this is on sale, or Target, wherever. If you cannot afford to pay for what you're buying and you're already servicing interest on credit cards, you gotta rethink this. You got to. There will always be other deals when your finances are where you can afford to just pay for something. This is not a time to borrow for once. The carry cost is too brutal. Nobody ever got rich paying Visa or MasterCard. I always used to say 18%. Right now I got to say 25%. Bad idea. Okay, I'm no fun. I'm a no fun zone, Krista.

[C]

Well, it's fun when you don't feel like you owe, that's for sure.

[B]

I owe, I owe, I owe. So off to work I go. That's not what you want to be doing.

[C]

No, it's very stressful. Pam does want to make a purchase. Pam in Florida, she said, my husband and I are in need of a new mattress. Ours is seven years old and well worn. We've been shopping around and it's been very confusing and frustrating venture. Not to mention the sticker shock. We both want to try it out before we buy. So buying sight unseen online is out of the question. When is a good time to buy? And how do we know what a good price is for a mattress?

[B]

Okay, we got to talk. All right. So I went through a journey on this as well with mattresses because the mattress market has gone through crazy weird changes. So we have never had mattresses as expensive as we have right now and as inexpensive as we have right now. What they call the bottom bucket to the top bucket has never been wider than it is right now in the mattress market. And so if you go to a mattress store of some kind and they start showing you mattresses and they'll always have a really terrible bargain price mattress, it'll be awful. And you and your husband will lay down on it, Pam, and you'll say, oh, man, this is the worst thing ever. Salesperson setting you up and they take you over to another one and they'll, they'll say, try this one. It may be 10 times the price of the first one. Or they may go through a sequence of them. It's all a sales technique. The reality is you can get a really great mattress at a really good price. And I want to tell you a couple of things. And then I'm going to go to your thing about not wanting to buy online. Okay? So the mattress market has morphed so much and Consumer Reports has done a great job rating mattresses. And if you don't have a subscription through your library, you may be able to see it for free or just buy one time access. And you will learn so much about finding a mattress or narrowing in or zeroing in. Plus, there are specific places that are great to buy a mattress from. But my thing is I love now buying a mattress online opposite of what you said you want. And the reason for that is when you buy an online mattress from most online sellers, you either have pretty much an unlimited time to return that mattress for a full refund or at least three or four months or six months to try it out. And if you don't like it, you get a full refund. Don't trust anybody who says that they will give you a credit towards another mattress. You want a full refund. But if you follow Consumer Reports as they explain different types and styles of mattresses, what the sleep experience is like for side sleepers, back sleepers, you know, people sleeping on their stomach, that kind of stuff, you'll really be able to focus on a more narrow number of mattresses. And Consumer Reports has ratings that we have a summary of on clark.com of physical stores also. You can go to and do what you want to do and try out a mattress. But even with them, make sure you have the guarantee where if you don't like it for at least three months, you have the right to return for a refund.

[C]

And Dallas on our team wrote that article on clark.com and she also listed, she went through all these different retailers and listed what they're a queen size mattress cost as of November this month, 2024. So we have a very updated guide there if you want to look at it.

[B]

So I want to tell you that the last mattress we bought was a king and we bought it at Costco and it was $469.

[C]

The problem is returning, right? Like you can return it, but you have to get it back in the box. If you buy well, you can't get.

[B]

It back in the box. So I mean, in the worst case scenario with Costco or Sam's, you might have to rent a flatbed from Home Depot, throw it in there, tie it down and take it back. But they will give you your money back and you start again. But I've never had to do that with a mattress. The only time we ever bought a mattress that really stunk was when my wife, it's not her fault, but there was this particular high end mattress that a friend got her really excited about. We bought this thing, it was almost $2,000 and it was horrible. And we had to, we found, actually found a place to donate it to.

[C]

Okay, that's good.

[B]

But that was almost $2,000 down the tubes.

[C]

I mean, I remember years ago, before these bed in a box things. I mean, your advice, and I saw you do it so many times when we'd be in a Costco is to lay the mattress on the floor. You'd have people lay down on the mattress and like chill out in the mattress for a while.

[B]

But you know, when Casper came up with the compressed mattress thing, it totally changed the industry. And so people overwhelmingly buy these mattresses, either that they cart home and let pop up like a old popcorn popper or they order them online and have them delivered.

[C]

All right, Linda in Washington says, what do you know about the fourth credit bureau in Novus? Should I be freezing my credit with this bureau also?

[B]

Okay, so thank you for asking this, Linda, because people ask, well, why don't you talk about doing credit freeze with check systems? Why don't you talk about doing credit freeze with this one, that one or the other one? And so I find that I try to get people to freeze with the three main Equifax, TransUnion experience. Not going to solve all the world's problems. But it's one of the most important things to protect your identity. And why those three? Because they're used so universally, they have so much market share. But then you have specialty bureaus like Innovis, they have minimal market share and credit granting decisions, at least at this point. And so I've not made talking about them a priority or some of the other more obscure one. There's one that many of the cell phone companies use that criminals have been targeting. And I don't even want to get into telling you about that one and freezing your credit with that and all that. So you just. We've got busy lives. There's a lot of noise in our lives. So the most important thing is if you have not frozen with the three mains, get it done. Because it's not like data breaches and all that are slowing down. They're accelerating. And that's why you need to put the most basic protections in place. They're free to do, quick to do. And if you don't know how to do it, go to clark.com credit freeze and you can get it done. But freezing with Anovis, if you really want to do a lot of the smaller credit bureaus, you can do that. It's not a priority for me.

[C]

May in California says, my son's a freshman in high school. Is it too late to start a 529 plan? I looked up the clerk's 529 dean's list and it says the California plan has no state tax benefit. But Arizona plans. Any 529 plan I believe has tax benefit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Would I receive a tax benefit if I roll with the Arizona plan instead of the California plan? Is it cheaper to go through the state plan directly rather than going through the Fidelity 529 plan?

[B]

So if California offers no state tax benefit for 529. I didn't remember that California had no benefit. Let me look at our latest review. Yep, no state tax benefit. So it doesn't matter which of the plans you go into as long as they're an ultra low cost plan. Arizona has a low cost plan only for the index. Age based index plans is really a good plan. California's plan is very good. Again, their age based equivalent is really good. So as long as you go with a low cost plan, you're fine. Now to the core of your question. If you have a kid who's already in ninth grade, is there an advantage to it? Yes, because you'll get tax free growth over the next several years till your son enrolls in college. And then if you end up with an embarrassment of riches, your son scholarships out or decides not to go to college or whatever it is. Ultimately you haven't lost anything because that money can ultimately become your son's Roth IRA and continue tax free growth and tax free spending all the way way down the line when they are approaching or in retirement. So it's a fantastic improvement in 529 plans and it makes it a no brainer. Even if it's a coin toss whether or not a child will go to college. 529 has become a great way to build tax free assets for that child. The maximum amount under current law that can be converted later into a Roth IRA is $35,000. And there are specific rules how the money goes into that Roth ira. I want to thank you so much for joining us today and I hope that you've learned something or been inspired to do something in your life that will help with our core mission, which is for you to learn ways to save more, spend less, and avoid getting ripped off. And our newsletters are something I'm so proud of. Our Clark Daily Newsletter Our Clark Deals Daily newsletter But what I'm most excited about is the subscription price for our newsletters. They are free. You want to check them out, go to clark.com either newsletter or newsletters and you're off to saving money or making more money. Have a great day.